THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST

While a cadet at the Air Force Academy, Jason Kim ’99 experienced the “pedestal effect” and learned the importance of curiosity, compassion, trust and mutual respect.
 
SUMMARY
Jason Kim, a USFA class of '99 and CEO of Firefly Aerospace, discussed his leadership journey and experiences. He emphasized the importance of curiosity, compassion, and mutual respect in leadership. Jason shared his upbringing in Richardson, Texas, and his parents' influence. He recounted his time at the Air Force Academy, highlighting the humbling experience of being among top cadets and the value of building trust. Jason detailed his career path, including roles at Boeing, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman, and his MBA from UCLA. He stressed the importance of giving back to the Air Force Academy and the Space Force.
 
OUR FAVORITE QUOTES
"I think just being curious and being an active listener and asking questions and listening to other people, sometimes people want to vent, or sometimes people want to just be heard or have a voice, or some, most of the time, people just have good ideas."
"And so I would just say, just be curious, what did I miss? Did you miss something? Did we both miss something? If you get all those great ideas and you share it amongst different people from different backgrounds and walks of life, you don't miss as much, you know, and you're just bet off better off, you'll have a better solution."
"Building that trust, you know, with your your your teams, that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up."
"We got this drilled into us, and we didn't even know at the time how important it was. But you know, building that trust, you know, with your your your teams, that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up."
"And then the last thing I would say is, I think we were one of the first classes that had non commissioned officers alongside with AOCs that were there to teach us about mutual respect, about mutual respect between officers and non commissioned officers. And I think that went a long ways for for all of us, because, you know, once we went to the real Air Force, you know, we were going to lead a lot of officers and NCOs, and getting that kind of exposure early on was helpful, but also learning about mutual respect, that's something that is extremely important in any work setting that you're in."
 
 
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CHAPTERS
00:00:  Introduction and Background
02:24:  Welcome to Long Leu Leadership
07:42:  Early Inspirations and Motivations
10:56:  Discovering the Air Force Academy
16:00:  Memorable Experiences at the Academy
23:26:  Leadership Lessons Learned
26:32:  Leadership: Curiosity, Compassion, and Mutual Respect
28:14:  Startup Journey: Taking Risks and Minimizing Regrets
30:07:  Leadership Lessons: MBA and Personal Growth
32:05:  Startup Experience: Joining and Growing a Company
36:18:  Family and Risk-Taking: Lessons from Parents
39:36:  Hidden Talent: Drawing and Painting
45:36:  Giving Back: Involvement with the Air Force Academy Foundation
51:30:  Impact of the Air Force Academy: Building Resilience and Confidence
 
TAKEAWAYS
Growing up in Texas with immigrant parents instilled a strong work ethic and a desire to give back to the country in Jason Kim.
Inspired by the space shuttle program and the Gulf War, Jason decided to pursue a career in the military.
At the Air Force Academy, Jason experienced the pedestal effect and learned the importance of curiosity, compassion, trust, and mutual respect in leadership.
Jason's academic and extracurricular experiences at the Academy helped shape his leadership skills and provided him with lifelong friendships.
His parents and role models like Colonel Ellison Onizuka influenced his decision to join the Air Force and give back to the country. Curiosity, compassion, and mutual respect are essential qualities in leadership.
Taking risks and minimizing regrets can lead to personal and professional growth.
Giving back and supporting future generations is important.
The Air Force Academy provides valuable experiences and lifelong friendships.
Learning multiple languages and exploring different cultures can broaden perspectives.
The Academy's challenging environment builds resilience and confidence.
 
ABOUT JASON KIM ’99
Mr. Jason Kim ’99 is a member of the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Directors. He is also CEO for Firefly Aerospace. Jason's career includes his work in the satellite and national security space for Boeing Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. While in the Air Force, he served as a program manager for the Space Superiority Systems program and Reconnaissance Systems Program offices. He has served on the boards of the National Defense industrial Association and space enterprise consortium formation Committee. He began his Air Force career as a cadet, having graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, followed by a master's in electrical engineering from AFET and then an MBA from the University of California, Anderson School of Management. 
 
CONNECT WITH JASON
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ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP
Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!
    
 
 
SPEAKERS
Guest:  Mr. Jason Kim ’99  |  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Naviere Walkewicz  00:01
Our guest today is Mr. Jason Kim USAFA class of ’99 and a member of the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Directors. Jason's career includes his work in the satellite and national security space for Boeing, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. While in the Air Force, he served as a program manager for the Space Superiority Systems and Reconnaissance Systems program offices. He has served on the boards of the National Defense Industrial Association and Space Enterprise Consortium Formation Committee. He began his Air Force career as a cadet, having graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, followed by a master's in electrical engineering from AFET and then an MBA from the University of California Anderson School of Management. We'll discuss Jason's life before, during and after the Academy, and we'll ask him to share a unique talent. We'll end with his advice for those striving to become leaders and those already in leadership positions, endeavoring toward excellence. Jason, welcome to Long Blue Leadership, my friend, my classmate. Thank you for being here today.
 
Jason Kim  01:04
Thank you for having me, and thanks for using my call sign.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  01:09
You're welcome. I know we want it to catch on so everyone knows now. Well, as we do in this, this is such a wonderful opportunity for our listeners to get to know you, and we like to go back and so for us, we're talking, you know, closer to 30 something years ago, right, when you were young. Jason, tell us about what life was like before the Academy was even in your in your line of sight.
 
Jason Kim  01:31
So, I grew up in Richardson, Texas. It's a suburb north of Dallas, and if you've been to Dallas, it's a metropolitan city, and but it's a little bit country as well. And so yes, I grew up with cowboy boots. I grew up with a belt buckle, you know, driving a pickup truck, all those kinds of things. But I'd listen to all kinds of music. So, judging by my call sign, you know, rap music, R&B, but also some country as well. And my parents were first-generation immigrants from South Korea, and so I really saw how hard they worked, you know, learning a different language, buying a house, doing all that in their late 30s and 40s and raising three children. I'm the youngest of three boys, and so I'm very, you know, grateful for what my parents did for us three boys. My dad was an electrician on oil rigs and was in the oil and gas industry, and that's why we ended up in Texas. And I'd see him travel away for a month at a time, and then come back home for a month to places like Venezuela and United Arab Emirates and Gulf of Mexico and all kinds of places. And so, you know, I heard stories of travel and just everything he was doing. So, we'll get to this later, but he was definitely an inspiration early on for me, and he always, you know, was very grateful for being a naturalized citizen and allowing our family to grow up in the U.S. and get an education. And so, he always kind of inspired me to give back to the country, and always do good things for the community as well. And so that's where I kind of got those roots. And, you know, also being the youngest of three boys, my older brothers were seven and nine years older than me and so you can imagine I was the little kid that they would bring along to school or, you know, meeting with friends. And so, I learned the good things from them and emulated the good things, but then the bad things, the mistakes that they made, I tried to avoid that. So, I kind of got it easy watching them. And so, I owe a lot to them coaching me and mentoring me as I grew up, and then being in Texas, of course, what did I play sports in, I played football. And I would say that a lot of the leadership skills that I got early on came from football, and a lot of the work ethic came from football — the teammates, the collaboration, the strategy. Texas football is pretty legit, and so I got to watch tape, I got to lift weights, practice. All those things that Tom Brady says in his Hall of Fame speech I resonate with now, I didn't end up like Tom Brady, but I resonate with what he said, all those early mornings, waking up, you know, training, all the hard work. It really taught me a lot of good lessons. And, you know, I still kind of  have a lot of that work ethic because of, you know, playing football, and a lot of the team and collaboration came from collaborating with 10 other football players trying to score a touchdown, or keep others from scoring a touchdown. And also, a big reason why I'm a big college football fan, so I'm really happy to see your son play for the Falcons, and I'm going to be rooting for him and the rest of the Falcons, as well as my other alma mater, UCLA, so I'll be at those games as well.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  05:55
That is awesome. I mean, I'm almost developing a visual of young Jason and his two older brothers and his mom and dad. And what a story. I mean, I think about, you know, just first off, the confidence, resilience and grit of your parents, right? And then you're seeing this, and you're growing up in a household. So, what, as the youngest? I mean, I think, like you said, you were able to kind of see what to avoid, what pitfalls to avoid, and how to kind of navigate that. Well, when did the military kind of come into the picture? Was that something that your older brothers participated in through school? How were you introduced into that side of the world?
 
Jason Kim  06:32
Yeah so, I would say it kind of goes along with some inspirational people in my life. You know, growing up in Texas, the Space Shuttle program was a big deal. And I think you and I were 8 years old when the space shuttle Challenger event happened, and one of the astronauts that was a hero among all the astronauts on that mission was Col. Ellison Onizuka, and he made a career in the Air Force. He was a test pilot, graduated with his Ph.D., I believe, and became an astronaut, and really gave his life in many ways, to for science and for the Air Force. And so, seeing someone like that that also kind of looked like me was a good role model for me at an early age. And so that kind of got me interested in the Air Force and the Shuttle program. And then, you know, I think you and I remember when we're young, 1991 before we went to the Academy, you know, the Gulf War, and we saw on TV for this first time, all this shock and awe and Gen. Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell, and all the strategy that was used. The technology. You know, you heard about the second offset strategy with those F-117 Nighthawks, and all the flares that you would see that night. And it really just made an impression on me. It got me kind of excited about the military and all the technology that's involved. And also, you know, kind of got me into thinking about being a pilot someday. And again, you know, my dad always saying, “Hey, give back, Jason. You know, this country has given a lot to our family. Give back.” I kind of got that motivation to go into the military. And then, you know, I think we also had family friends that had some people that went to the academies, whether it's the Naval Academy or others, and got to learn a little bit from them what was it like to go to the Academy? And these were really good role models as well. So, I got with my liaison officer, which was a really great liaison officer, got me involved with what I needed to do to get more information. And went to the summer scientific seminar and spent a week on the campus and got to learn what it was like to be a cadet, somewhat.
Yeah, it was actually fun. But, you know, meeting people, meeting the upperclassmen, and they were all super nice at the time. And I also, it turns out, I met my future roommate there, and we were, yeah, we met at the summer scientific seminar. And so, lo and behold, when I go into basic cadet training, I see him there. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, you were there at the same time as me!” So it was a really great experience, and that kind of solidified it for me that I wanted to go the Air Force Academy.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  09:56
So, I mean, you had some great role models to kind of facilitate some of that interest. There was a lot of things happening in the country that, you know, we both were, were very familiar with, and it created some feelings of pride and wanting to give back. Were you always thinking about the Air Force Academy because of those motivations, or were you thinking other service academies as well?
 
Jason Kim  10:16
I think I had my heart set on the Air Force Academy. You know, I don't know if I said before, but you know, my parents had me late, later in life, and so since I was the baby of the family, by the time I got to the age of going to college, my parents were retirement age, and I was not going to put them through what they did for my older brothers, which was room, tuition, board, and all that stuff that they had to work hard to pay for. I wanted to get a scholarship somehow. And this was a way to give back to the country, get a scholarship, get a great education. Plus, you know, I applied to all the service academies. But, you know, you'll, you'll hear this later, but I wasn't the best swimmer, so I wasn't going to go to the Naval Academy. West Point was foreign to me. I just didn't know enough about the Army, and I wanted to be a pilot. So, I thought, “Hey, the Air Force Academy is the best way to do that.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz  11:17
Awesome. So, you had a great ALO (pronounced AY-low and is an Academy Liaison Officer) you know, you kind of went through the process, which, in itself, is quite a process, as we remember. And so how did you find out? When did you find out you received an appointment to the Air Force Academy?
 
Jason Kim  11:31
That was, oh, that was, you know, I've had a lot of great moments in my life, so it's, that's reaching far back. I just remember that I was super happy. You know, it was Congressman Sam Johnson of the 3rd District of Texas that, you know, gave me the nomination. He was actually an Air Force pilot and a Vietnam POW. He since passed away. But, you know, getting a nomination from a legend like that was very much an honor. You know, I also got a senatorial nomination to go to the Naval Academy, but not knowing any better, as the 18-year-old, or whatever I was, 17-year-old, I was like, “Sorry, Senator, I'm going to the Air Force Academy. Thank you very much. I'm not going to the Naval Academy.” So I was very set on going to the Air Force Academy. I was very, very happy, because it was hard to get in. I mean, one of the challenges I had as a fairly big football player in high school was the, you know, the test that you have to physical fitness tests you have to take to get into the Air Force Academy. So, you had to do all the pull ups and the runs and all that stuff. And I had to cut weight, and it really took me waking up every morning, just going through the routine of practicing all those things, and eventually got enough confidence to pass the physical fitness test and all the other things you got to go through. So, it was very rewarding to get to the point where I got in.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  13:15
That is awesome. And I can see that drive, I mean, just from your family instilled in you to get to be like you said, confident, ready to go. That's no surprise at all. So, talk about at the Academy, we know a little about your roommate. You met him in summer scientific seminar. What was your Academy experience like?
 
Jason Kim  13:35
I remember Day 1 because there are two funny things that happened. One, somehow I got lucky, and I got paired up with a NCO, enlisted person, who I wish I remembered his name. He didn't end up staying after Basic Cadet Training, so I lost touch. But what he did for me was amazing, because he already knew the drill. He was like, “Jason, you don't know how to wear BDUs, but this is how you do it. This is how you put the blouses on.” How did I luck out? I had somebody that knew what to do and was teaching me how to do it from Day 1. So very, very much grateful to that individual. I wish I could have kept in touch with him. The second funny thing is, we all had name badges. And you know, my name badge, for some reason, it said Jun Kim. And I was like, OK, that's my last name, and it's June, I think. So it makes sense. And then everybody, all the upperclassmen, were like, “Is your name Jun Kim?” I was like, “Yes, yes, sir. My name is Kim,” and I thought it was the month. But it turns out they accidentally switched my nametag with another Cadet named Jun Kim. Yeah, and so he was wearing my Jason Kim, and so, on Day 1, you know, it was very confusing, and that got me into a lot of trouble. They're like, “Do you know…,” all the things you could think of, I was getting all those kinds of comments. And so, it was quite the memorable experience. It's like, it's hard enough being a new doolie and trying to figure it out. But then when you have those kinds of incidents, it's like, it makes it even more confusing, but it was memorable.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  15:33
Oh, that's awesome. I can, literally picture this.
 
Jason Kim  15:37
That was Day 1, and then, you know, life as a cadet. They warn you of this. They warn you of the pedestal effect, where you're in high school, you're top of your game, and top of your class and you varsity letter and all that stuff. But when you get to the Academy, oh, boy, was I humbled. I mean, there were people that were smarter than me, more athletic than me, you know, better in every way. And so, I just felt very average. And in retrospect, there's nothing wrong with that, right? But just being around 1,500 cadets, you know they just were the best of the best from wherever they were. It was very, very humbling, but also rewarding, because I got to meet people from different states. I'd go on spring break to California for the first time, because I'd make friends with people that were from Northern California or Los Angeles. So, I got to meet a lot of lifelong friends that have been my support group for my entire life, you know. And every time I get together with my friends from the Academy, it's just like it was old times. It just, it's hard to explain, but you know what I'm talking about, and…
 
Naviere Walkewicz  17:02
I do. It just feels like time didn't pass.
 
Jason Kim  17:05
That's right. Some of us, like yourself, look like you do from those days. Some of us aged a little bit differently, like myself, but yeah, it was a great experience. Now, if you remember our year — our year was the first year that had the increased level of the internet and so that got a lot of people in trouble. Because, you know, “What's this internet? What do you do with it?” What we got in trouble for in my class was we played a lot of online games, you know, in first-person kind of games. So, I remember there was a game called Quake, and it was a lot of us just playing together in our in our dorm rooms and spending a little bit too much time on that. And then I remember other video games, like Goldeneye on Nintendo, and it just sucked so much time out of our days that, in retrospect, it's like, “What were we doing?” So, I guess you could say we were kind of old-school video gamers back in the day.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  18:20
It's funny. I was just going to ask you, we knew that you were getting into electrical engineering. What else were you doing? So, it sounds like it wasn't football, but it was Nintendo.
 
Jason Kim  18:30
I really loved sports. So, I loved taking all the intramural sports and the classes like golf and tennis, and I got into rugby for a little bit, for a minute, which I really enjoyed, but it's not a very forgiving sport, so that didn't last that long. But, you know, I think just the camaraderie you get playing sports like that was fun, and I think from the academic side, you know, I did go into electrical engineering, so I did all the nerdy stuff. That's probably why we didn't cross paths. Also, you probably weren't at the robotics competitions that we were doing, because that's really nerdy. But we got into doing little Roomba robot construction before Roombas existed, and we created our own Pac Man, you know, handheld games from scratch using a box of parts and processors. And my senior design project was pretty interesting. My classmate and I decided to make a digital karaoke machine. You know, using everything we learned from electrical engineering and apply it to something fun. I just remember us just trying to make the most of it with our friends and our classmates, and trying to make it fun, because it could be a lot. I took a lot of semester credit hours my freshman year. I just remember something like 22-plus credit hours. It was just a lot, and you really needed a way to recharge. And so those were some of the ways. But of course, the skiing was amazing. You know, being so close in proximity to all the ski resorts, like Breckenridge and Copper Mountain and Vail — all those great places. So those were always fun things to do. I had my first bowl of pho in Denver.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  20:49
In Denver?
 
Jason Kim  20:52
I remember that vividly. I went to one of my first concerts, Smashing Pumpkins at the Nuggets center. And then I got to go to Red Rocks. So, there was a lot of cultural things that I got to be a part of, too.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  21:09
I love that. So some of the things that you expressed, and I think this is great for our listeners, because, you know, sometimes some of some of our guests have been very, I don't say tunnel vision, but there's very, like, one track they've been really dedicated to, like one aspect. You know, obviously we have to do military, academic and, you know, physical fitness, athleticism, but there's kind of one track that they really hone in on.
It seems like you really kind of experienced a lot, and through all of that, I might ask, what were some of the leadership lessons you picked up and learning about yourself, because you kind of talked about that pedestal effect, right? You were really kind of high coming from high school, and then you came to the Academy, and you kind of had to rediscover yourself in a different way. And it looked like you did that. What did you learn?
 
Jason Kim  21:53
Yeah, so some of the leadership things that I would say, that I got exposed to — and it made me kind of think about it and much later in life, kind of reinforce it — was just to be curious. A lot of times as leaders, you can jump to conclusions but I think one technique that is very helpful, no matter what industry you're in, is just be curious. You know, when you have employees, you could hold folks accountable but be curious about it. Ask the right questions. “Is everything OK? Do you have enough support? Do you have the tools, training to do what you need to? How's your family life?” That kind of stuff. So, I think you could be very curious and compassionate and graceful in terms of leadership, and that's partly learning from good leaders, but also bad leaders that didn't do that. So, I think you got to see both sides as a cadet, and you always want to pick the good leaders and emulate the good behaviors and leave out the bad. So that's one thing I would say. You know, we got this drilled into us, and we didn't even know at the time how important it was. But building that trust with your teams — that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up. And then the last thing I would say is, I think we were one of the first classes that had noncommissioned officers alongside with AOCs (Air Officer Commanding) that were there to teach us about mutual respect, about mutual respect between officers and noncommissioned officers. And I think that went a long ways for all of us, because once we went to the real Air Force, we were going to lead a lot of officers and NCOs and getting that kind of exposure early on was helpful. But also learning about mutual respect — that's something that is extremely important in any work setting that you're in. So those are kind of three examples of leadership, things that I would say I remember from the Academy that are also still important today.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  24:35
I think that's wonderful. Maybe you'll even share an example where you saw either curiosity, compassion or mutual respect really play a role in your professional or personal life after the Academy, but before we get there, I remember you talking about wanting to maybe get into space, right? The astronaut program, be a pilot. How did that all shape out? Because you were an electrical engineer, and then what?
 
Jason Kim  24:58
So, I really wanted to be a pilot. And for some reason, I really liked the C-17, the Globemaster. And I think it's because it was a fly-by-wire kind of system. It was a stick, but it was like more of a commercial airline-kind of transport plane. So, it was a blend of — fighter pilots use sticks but it was still kind of an air mobility command-kind of system. But, you know, unfortunately, my eyesight, my color deficiency, just didn't allow me to go into that track. So, I really just leaned on and doubled down on my electrical engineering background and got to go to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base as my first assignment. And there I was an engineer-slash-project-manager working on uncrewed aerial vehicles before they became popular. So, things like the Global Hawk and the Predator, UAVs, those were things that I was getting exposed to, and I got to put payloads on. If you remember, in the 1999 timeframe, there were Hellfire missiles put on the Predator. I was there when that was happening. And so, it was just very, very amazing to see all that happen before my eyes. I got to work on the U2 and put payloads on the U2 and other very important missions. And I think that exposed me to the real Air Force. Even though I wasn't flying, I got exposed to assets that actually went into the theater and were very valuable. And then from there, I got assigned to L.A. Air Force Base, and finally got to live out my dream of living in Los Angeles, and was assigned to the Space Superiority Material Wing, and that's where we were acquiring satellites and ground systems to help protect our freedom in space. And so, I learned a lot about space there and ground systems. And, you know, after several years working there, I decided I wanted to go into industry. And so, I did two things. I went to a large aerospace company and became a program manager there. You know, now, in charge of designing and building these satellites. So I went part time to UCLA to get my fully employed MBA, just knowing that I wasn't going to know everything about industry. I wasn't going to know everything about how to be part of a company, and so I wanted to kind of learn more about that side of the industry by getting an MBA. Unbeknownst to me, the MBA wasn't just about company operations and finances, it was actually about leadership. And so, I got a lot of leadership lessons from my MBA program as well. So, it gave me a lot of confidence. And what I mean by that is confidence in just going with your gut, taking risks, getting into high-risk, high-reward situations. And it's because I learned about, the company financials, the underpinnings of a company. I learned about entrepreneurism, what it what it's like to start up a company or operate a company or go through different case studies of how to turn around a company. I learned a lot about accounting and how important and valuable that is. But then most of all, I learned a lot from my classmates. And there were people from the Hollywood industry or investment banking or the medical industry. So, it was really great to learn from my classmates. It got me to conference level where I was like, “Hey, what am I doing at this company? I want to take a risk and go to a startup company.” And I did. I took that leap of faith, and that's where our first, you know, joined Millennium Space Systems, which was a small startup company when it was 20 people. But it was something that I guess I go back to the Air Force Academy where, you know, there's that quote in the Eagle and Fledgling statue that says, “Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge.” That kind of always stuck with me and it's one of those things where, when you join a startup company, and you help grow it, and eventually we sold the company to Boeing, you learn so much. I mean, I had five different hats, you know, and I had to learn about finance, program management, business development, engineering, integration and test, all that stuff, mission operations — you learn all those things by doing, and no one will ever be able to take that knowledge away. You just, you just get it for life.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  30:34
Wow, there's, there's so much that, I mean, you covered such a span, because I'm imagining, you know, maybe I don't want to call — maybe “gift” is not the right word, but not being able to be a pilot might have been something that opened up obviously these opportunities for you in ways that you could not have even foreseen. So, I actually wanted to go back to that really quick and just ask, how did you, how did you kind of re-change your thoughts or shape your mindset to, “OK, well, it's not that. So, what's next?” And how did you handle that? Because I think some of our listeners find themselves in situations where, “Well, if I do all these things, then it will lead to this.” But sometimes there are things outside of your control that even if you do all the things, you can't get there.
 
Jason Kim  31:20
Well, I think, first of all, I'll always be a fan of pilots and aviators and all these fighters and bombers and transport airplanes — I definitely bleed blue still to this day. So, I definitely appreciate all of our classmates that have sacrificed so much to fly in the Air Force and defend us. That's kind of my mindset is, “What can I do to still contribute to the mission to national security?” And so as long as that was kind of my guide-star, I was fine, because I knew that I was contributing to the mission in some way, whether it be acquiring platforms and putting payloads on those platforms to go support our classmates, or today, you know, designing and building systems and operating systems that end up helping national security. It's really the mindset of, “What can I do to help and make a difference, to help defend our country?” So that's how my mindset shifted, because it takes all of us to contribute what we each contribute to make these missions work. And so that's kind of where my head was at.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  32:50
I think that's fantastic advice. And there's this theme that's been woven since you talked about your parents, and I think it's this, you know, looking forward and investing in yourself and educating yourself. And so along this path, you've done those things. You're also a family man. When did that kind of come to fruition and how does your family feel about when you joining startups and taking risks and doing some of these things?
 
Jason Kim  33:16
It goes back to my dad. He gave me a lot of great advice when he was still around, and one of the advice was just sharing his regrets. You know, a lot of people thought he was my grandfather because he had me so late. Really,there's something to be said about that. He was very wise. He had a lot of experience in life, and he had global experience and had seen so many different hardships and overcome them. And he would always say, “Hey, I wish I would have taken, you know, that risk and left my company and joined my other co-workers to go start up that other company.” That actually happened. He had co-workers that ended up starting up a different old drilling company in Texas, and he thought it was too much risk at the time. He regrets that, because obviously those people that went over at the time they did, they did well for themselves. So he would tell me stories like that, and really all that wisdom he would just try to share with me from a young age. And it's hard to admit, but at some point in your, all of our lives, we start to realize how right our parents were sometimes, and so, you know, a lot of the risk taking that I'm doing, that I have done, stems from advice that my dad gave me. It's like, “Hey, go for it. Take the risks. Don't have those regrets.” And so, I think I have lived my life in that manner — just minimize the regrets and take some risk and take calculated risk and really be confident with yourself and double down on yourself. So, yeah, absolutely.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  35:12
I love that. And your family obviously doubles down on — yeah.
 
Jason Kim  35:16
I mean, I had kids late in life. I really enjoy spending time with my kids. That's how I recharge. You know, I've got a son that's turning 9 this month, and a daughter that turned 6 a couple months ago, and just watching them grow up and be curious and learn and ask questions and try different things out. You know, we try not to push things on our kids, and I'm the same way. I'm not trying to push anything on my kids, but I do want to give them a lot of opportunities that I wish I had, and just expose them to those opportunities, because you just never know which one takes off and which one really resonates with them. And so that's kind of my mindset right now is, “How can I give my son and daughter as many opportunities as possible so that they could figure it out on their own what they want to do,” right?
 
Naviere Walkewicz  36:09
Well, even the words that you used, you kind of talked about some of those lessons that you took away as a cadet, and you are seeing it in your children, with the way that they ask questions and the way that they explore. So, I think you have kind of taken those and pass it into your legacy line. I do want to ask a question, because we always find it fascinating when we learn more about our guests. So, do you have a hidden talent that you might share with our listeners?
 
 
Jason Kim  36:35
I do. I wish I could say it's something that is so fascinating. But really, it's just some something that I could — I could draw and paint really well, and it was something that I just noticed when I was very young. You know, I learned from my older brothers, and they were pretty good at it, too, but I learned at an earlier age than them, and so I've always been able to sketch and draw realistic pictures. When I was younger, drawing Lamborghinis. Because I always wanteda Lamborghini Countach. They don't make those cars in the price points that I would like, so I don't have one today. But I was always drawing things. And, you know, recently, I started painting as well, and it was crazy. I had never done oil painting before, and when I had my first child, my son, whatever got into me, I just picked up a brush and painted a picture of him, and it actually looks like him. And we did a side by side, like picture of him smiling, and the painting of him smiling. It definitely captures his essence, because I never got training or anything. And so, I would say that's my hidden talent. It was even hidden for me. And, you know, it's just amazing — just go for it. Just go do it. And that's one of the things that I would recommend to people that are wanting to go the Air Force Academy is just get out of your comfort zone and do as many things as you can early on, even before going to the Academy. You know, learn different languages. Just learn as much as you can. Learn lifetime sports. Take lessons of swimming or golf or tennis — all those kind of things. Just do as much as you can, because you'll get busy when you're at the Air Force Academy and you'll have less time to do all the things you want to do. But even when you're in industry and you're working, you don't have as much time to go do that kind of stuff. And you may not think you have a lot of time during junior high or high school, but you do, and you should take advantage of just learning as much as you can, and you'll appreciate it later in life when you go travel to Paris or travel to different places like Thailand or, you know, Japan. You know, if you learn those languages, you can explore those places even more in a way that you know is more enriching, and that gets me to that's what I want to do more of, is travel, travel globally with my family. I think that's something that I want to expose my kids to. And a lot of times you grow up in the United States and you start thinking, “Hey, there's only one way to think about stuff.” But when you travel — and I got to travel for work to Paris a couple years — it opened my eyes. It opened my eyes to a different world and how other people think and dress and go about their daily lives. I've also gotten to London recently for work, and that was eye opening as well, and been to Southeast Asia as well. So, it's just fascinating to go to this these different places and learn the cultures and talk the languages and meet the people. It's very enriching.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
So how many languages do you speak?
 
Jason Kim
So, I grew up learning Korean so I can speak a little bit of Korean. I obviously took Spanish because I grew up in Texas, and that Spanish is a very valuable language in Texas, even in California. And because I took Spanish, you know, when I get to the Air Force Academy, what do they do? They said, “Hey, we don't want you to take Spanish. We want you to be the handful of people that takes Arabic.” So, I got the privilege to take Arabic. I got volunteered into it, and it was very, very difficult for me, because I just had no background in it. I struggled with it. But the silver lining is that I learned about a new culture, and I learned about how to write right to left and, you know, just a new language and new foods that go along with it, too. So I really appreciated that. In hindsight, at the time I didn't think it was that easy, but in hindsight, I wish I would have done more and kept the fluency in it, because learning a different language means you can talk to a different group of people, and you can learn more or teach each other new things. So, it just opens a lot of doors.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  42:02
So, the experiences you've had, both from the Academy and the languages and throughout your career, both professionally as well. It's personally, what's something that you've taken back from those experiences that you might share with a listener that maybe hasn't had that kind of exposure, that they can bring to the leadership table. And how do you use that at yours?
 
Jason Kim  42:20
I think it just goes back to what it touched on before, is just the curiosity. Just always be curious. You know, I think Ted Lasso had it right. Just be curious, right? If you had just asked questions about, “Hey, did you throw darts when you were younger?” Oh, if you would have known that you would have known that Ted lasso was really good at darts. I think just being curious and being an active listener and asking questions and listening to other people, sometimes people want to vent, or sometimes people want to just be heard or have a voice, or, most of the time, people just have good ideas. And you know, it's all about, “Hey, did I miss something? Did you miss something? Did we both miss something?” If you get all those great ideas and you share it amongst different people from different backgrounds and walks of life, you don't miss as much and you're just better off, you'll have a better solution. And in my industry, you have a better design, you have a better result, performance result. And so, I would just say, just be curious.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  43:29
What did your road back to the Academy look like? You know, now you're part of a board of (USAFA) Foundation directors, and so you talked about learning from your dad and your mom, always about giving back. So, I have to think that's probably been part of was in the back of your mind. But how did that all come together?
 
Jason Kim  43:44
You know, I had no road map to do the job that I'm in right now. I never anticipated doing this job, and I also didn't anticipate being on the board of directors for the Air Force Academy Foundation. But I had folks reach out from, you know, the Air Force Academy Foundation, and ask me, “Hey, do you know what we do? You're a big football fan. Are you aware there's a Falcon Stadium renovation?” And I was like, “No, tell me more.” And with that first visit, I actually donated right away, I was like, “I'm on board. Sign me up. I want to donate to this because I believe in it.” You know, Falcon Stadium was where we graduated, right? It's such a memorable place. We saw a lot of football games there. And so, it means so much. So, I was all about donating to that cause. And then I would say that the second time around, when the same person came back and said, just to check up on me — he had mentioned, “Hey, there's this foundation, and they're looking for someone that has a space background, and you have a space background. So, are you interested in potentially coming to a board meeting?” When I went and attended the board meeting as a guest, I just stared around the room, and I was just in awe, because there was Paul Kaminski, who's, to me, is one of my role models in terms of all that he's done for the country and continues to do for the country. And he was on the academic committee. And so, of course, I wanted to join the academic committee. I saw Gen. Eberhardt. I saw Gen. Born, and there were just so many amazing people, Paul Madera, that I was just in awe. And, you know, from that respect, I was like, “Sign me up. I want to be a part of this.” And I saw them and how much they cared about the Academy and the cadets and making sure that the Academy kind of stayed relevant and was giving the cadets the best education that they can to compete with the Stanfords and MITs and the Harvards, I really saw a good cause, and then the fact that they were interested in my space background. I said, “Yeah, I definitely want to be part of whatever I could do to contribute to the Air Force Academy, to graduate not only people that are going to go to the Air Force, but also to the Space Force.” And so that's something I hope to contribute to is maybe someday a future space education center at the Air Force Academy, so that the cadets could get a great education and be future leaders in the Space Force as well.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  46:53
Well, it certainly makes a difference. And I think I remember seeing you at that first board meeting that you participated in. I was so excited to see you. That was like, oh, ’99s in the house. So that was wonderful. Yes, well, I have two questions left. The first one is, really, I want to just ask you, because we've covered so much, and you've given such wonderful, I think, advice and just perspective. But is there anything that I didn't ask you that you had wanted to, you know, talk about today?
 
Jason Kim  47:20
You know, I think at the end of the day, going through the Air Force Academy is extremely challenging, but after you graduate, and after you go through life experiences, all the hardships, the challenges, what I've realized is going through the Academy kind of helped me overcome what I had to overcome in my adult life and in my industry life. We didn't like it at the time but breaking you down and then building you back up and making you get up back again every time you fall down, gives you life lessons and a confidence in yourself that you can kind of do anything that you put your mind to. I really believe that the Air Force Academy kind of helped me overcome a lot of different hardships in my life. You don't really realize that going through it, but later in life, I appreciate the fact that I went there and getting through there actually gave me the confidence that I could get back up and be OK and keep growing and continuously learn and get better and improve. So that's kind of something that I could attribute to the Air Force Academy.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  48:49
Oh, that is awesome. And, I mean, and it's obviously taken you to new heights. Leading a corporation is no small feat. So,  one of the things we really like to do is make sure we kind of hear the takeaways, from you to our listeners. So, it's really kind of a message to them. But before we do that and get your final thoughts, I just wanted to offer a note of thanks to our listeners for being here on the Long Blue Leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Be sure to send us your thoughts and comments at socialmedia@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org  So, Jason, I want to come back to you now, because I hope that gave you a little bit of time to think about what is the message you'd like to share to our listeners. And our listeners are far and wide. We have those aspiring to go to the Academy, we have family members of cadets, and we have graduates all alike. What would you like to share when you think about kind of your experiences in the realm of leadership?
 
Jason Kim  49:48
To them, I think the Air Force Academy is a great place to graduate from. It's really hard to get through. So, be really proud of your sons and daughters that are going through it and persevering, and it really is a great experience for them. For those that are prospective students: You're going to get to do things that you never could do anywhere else. You know, jump out of planes fly gliders, eventually go into the Air Force or Space Force. And then for graduates, we've made so many lifelong friends, and we've made so many memories. It's something we can all do is give back, whether it's — go march back from Jacks Valley, or go to the reunion this year for our 25th reunion for the class of ’99, or go to some football games. The Foundation has plenty of great, noble causes to donate to, because it's all about that Long Blue Line. We want the next set of cadets to get an even better experience in education than we did. We want to keep it going.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  51:12
It is always a pleasure to not only hear your voice, but today, I got to see you as well. That just brings me such joy, and I can't wait until our reunion, just in a couple of months as well. Thank you so much for your time today, Jason, it's been amazing. Lil’ Kim, thank you. Bye.
 
KEYWORDS
Jason Kim, Firefly Aerospace, Air Force Academy, immigrant parents, work ethic, space shuttle program, Gulf War, military career, pedestal effect, curiosity, compassion, trust, mutual respect, leadership, CEO, curiosity, compassion, mutual respect, electrical engineering, startup, satellites, taking risks, giving back
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 
 

A conversation with 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23, the first active duty military member to be crowned Miss America 2024, about her  background, leadership experiences, transition to Harvard Kennedy School, and key lessons on empathetic leadership and following one's passions.
 
SUMMARY
Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, the first active-duty military member and Miss America 2024, discussed her journey and leadership experiences. She highlighted her foundation for pancreatic cancer research, her academic achievements, and her role as a mentor at the Air Force Academy. Marsh emphasized the importance of empathetic leadership, mental health support, and balancing personal and professional life. She shared her transition from aspiring to be an astronaut to focusing on public policy and her current studies at Harvard Kennedy School. Marsh underscored the significance of passion, support from family and mentors, and the impact of diverse perspectives on leadership.
 
OUR FAVORITE QUOTES
"Don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
"Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
"I knew that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
"Leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
"Being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself."
- 2nd Lieutenant Madison Marsh
 
SHARE THIS EPISODE
FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  INSTAGRAM
 
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:  Empathetic Leadership: The Foundation of Success
02:43:  Journey to the Air Force Academy: A Personal Story
11:33:  Overcoming Tragedy: The Power of Support
16:18:  Leadership Lessons from the Academy
28:31:  Navigating Career Changes: Finding Passion
45:02:  Key Takeaways: Empathy and Passion in Leadership
 
 
TAKEWAYS
Embrace empathetic leadership - Truly understanding and supporting your team members, even when they are struggling, is crucial for effective leadership.
Lead by example - As a leader, you should be willing to do anything you ask of your team and not ask them to do something you wouldn't do yourself.
Follow your passions - Pursuing work and activities you are truly passionate about will lead to greater fulfillment and impact than forcing yourself into a path for others.
Build a strong support network - Relying on partners, mentors, and loved ones can provide the encouragement and guidance needed to overcome challenges.
Prioritize self-care - Taking time for your own mental, physical, and emotional well-being is essential to being an effective leader and avoiding burnout.
 
 
ABOUT MADISON
Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, crowned Miss America 2024, poses in a Colorado Air National Guard hanger on Buckley Space Force Base on August 7, 2024. Marsh embodies service in and out of uniform, proving that you can achieve your dreams and goals while serving in the United States Air Force.  Image Credit:  Ms. Miram Thurber, Air Force Recruiting Service Public Affairs
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh, USAFA class of ’23, and Miss America 2024 is the first active-duty member of the military to hold the title.  She is also the first such title holder in 50 years for Colorado. She attained her private pilot license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in her physics and astronomy studies, winning a Truman scholarship and is now pursuing her master’s in public policy at Harvard Kennedy School.  
 
CONNECT WITH MADISON
Instagram:  @‌missamerica  |  @‌madiisabellaa
 
 
ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP
Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!
    
 
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS
Guest, 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
Naviere Walkewicz  00:22
My guest today is Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, USAFA Class of 23 and newly crowned Miss America.  This is a first for an active-duty member of the military and one for the Colorado history books in that she is the first such title holder in 50 years for the Academy's home state. But there is much, much more to Lieutenant Marsh, including her attaining a private pilot's license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the very difficult loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research and to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in physics and astronomy, earning a Truman Scholarship, and is now pursuing her Master's in Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School. We'll talk with Lieutenant Marsh about her most meaningful and impactful experiences at the Academy in research, athletics, leadership and character development. We'll discuss her speaker role at this year's National Character and Leadership Symposium, and ask how her new role as a national speaker and influencer informs her mission and message. And finally, we'll have the lieutenant share a few takeaways on leadership and character development with you, our listeners. Lieutenant Marsh, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 
Thank you so much for having me.
Naviere Walkewicz  Absolutely. And before we dive in, as we normally do, we'd love to know how things have been going since you've been crowned.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  01:51
It has been very, very busy. I've been really lucky that the Air Force decided to keep me on active duty this year, because not only am I getting to serve in a uniform like this, but I'm also getting to serve in that crown and sash. And so, there's so many different experiences that I've gotten to have, whether it's a mixture of days that I'm going and promoting the military, or days that I'm doing a very different type of service. So I never know what I'm gonna’ get every day that I wake up on the job. So it's been pretty cool.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  02:16
That is awesome. Can you share something that's really stuck out to you as just really memorable?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  02:21
So far, one of my favorite trips that we went on was Normandy for the D-Day anniversary, and I loved it because I had actually gone there last year, right after I commissioned with my fiancé, that was one of the first things we saw as officers. And now getting to go back with a year under my belt with a very different experience, I got to really see that history for like firsthand again. And I just think every time that I look at those headstones, it reminds me of what it means to put on our uniform, what our flag really means to me. And now being able to have that firsthand experience and sharing that with students across the nation, because I want people to understand what it means to serve every day, to hopefully invite people to come and join us and get excited about what service is.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  03:06
Oh, that's incredible. And, I mean, I think just to reiterate your commitment to service, and then to be able to see how you carry that message through history, I think is really powerful. Oh, that's amazing. I imagine that it's been a whirlwind, and you're looking forward to much more as well. Yes, does it feel like it's flown by?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  03:21
Yes, I feel, I think I have, like, four and a half months left. And I mean, every day I wake up and it's like three weeks later apparently.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  03:31
Well, I’m sure that to you it feels like it's flying by, but to everyone else it's a moment in time that they can really connect with you. So, your message is so powerful. We're glad that you're representing. Well, we'd love to dive into our podcast so our listeners can get to know you a little bit more and really experience leadership through your journey. So, we like to start by going into childhood. Okay, do you mind sharing a little bit about what you were like as young girl?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  03:55
Oh, let's see. I'd always loved science. Okay, so that was the big thing. I had wanted to be a paleontologist, a volcanologist. I wanted to be a scientist that lived with gorillas and studied them in the forest, which was…
 
Naviere Walkewicz  04:08
Was that inspired by a movie, or just…
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  04:10
I don't know where that even started from. I think I was like, that sounds cool. My parents were like, What is she talking about then? And then, kind of going more into junior high, I wanted to be a marine biologist, and because I went on submarine biology camp, that was what sparked my interest in space, so that I had a very big shift that brought me to wanting to be an astronaut, which is ultimately why I ended up at the Academy. So, there was all these little things of interest throughout science my whole life that now made me put on the uniform.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  04:42
So Wow, very long, weird journey to get there. Well, I'm sure it was an adventure for you and your family. Yes, are you an only child? Or do you have siblings?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  04:47
I'm one of five. So, we are a mixed family. I have three older half siblings and older brother Nick, older brother Chris, older sister Sarah. Then there's me and my younger sister, Heidi. So, big family.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  04:59
Yes, and they’re all adventurous like you?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  05:01
I would say so. I think we're all very different, like my older brothers, they were the huge athletes in our high school. I was not as much of an athlete in high school like I still loved fitness and gym, but I was the band geek. I was the one that was on Quiz Bowl and Science Bowl. My brothers did not. They didn't have the same interest in high school but now they're loving, like, they work in the tech industry. My older sister works in the tech industry. So, I'd say all of my siblings, now that we're in our adulthood, are very focused on, like, all STEM careers. So, it's been cool.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  05:36
That is amazing. And I love that you mentioned, you know, being a band geek. And I think a lot of people wonder, “Can I, what does that look like down the road?” And just to embrace, I think, our passion? So, what did you play?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  05:46
So, I played clarinet and contrabass clarinet. So that's like the big six foot tall…
 
Naviere Walkewicz  05:52
Oh my goodness.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  05:52
I was this tiny little kid in the ninth grade. Whenever I got to play contrabass, they have to put you on this really tall chair. And so, there's very hilarious videos of me that my family basically uses this blackmail of me playing that journey. I was so proud of it when I brought it home, my parents were like, oh, it's six feet tall. When I brought it home, they were like, “Why was Madison picked for this? She's gonna’ be playing this in the house all day.” And it's this really deep, extremely loud noise. And they're like, “Okay, we thought we could deal with the clarinet, but this is, this is next level.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz  06:27
Well, I guess you know the good thing about that, it wasn't a drum set, right?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  06:30
That's true. There's grateful for that. Absolutely.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  06:34
Wow, so you all got involved in STEM. Do you have military members in your family as well that you knew? That's when you said astronaut and Air Force Academy that helped guide that for you or no?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  06:43
So my grandfather had served, but I had never met him. He passed away, I believe, either whenever I was like a newborn, or maybe a couple years prior, so that, I guess, didn't really influence my decision in the military. The biggest part of it was when I went to space camp in junior high, and I met a bunch of astronauts there. And so, after hearing story after story from them, and getting to go and do really cool experiments, like at space camp, you're building rockets, you're pretending to be an astronaut, like we did a mission to Mars where I got to be a botanist. And so, all of that really influenced my decision on how do I become an astronaut? And so, the story I kept hearing was all of them, for the most part, that I'd met were in the military. They were test pilots, they were fighter pilots. So, I started to figure out, how can I go down that path? Discovered the Air Force Academy and knew that was going to be one of the best places to getting a pilot slot, and even though I am not going down that astronaut path anymore because of those initial dreams and those aspirations that has opened up so many doors now for the rest of my career. So, it's been cool to see how it's evolved over time as I've grown up.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  07:46
Oh, that's amazing. And I think it's part of what you've learned in your journey is there's a bit of, like, flexibility and kind of, you know, learning along the way. So, it sounds like you did some of that even as a young girl. Okay, so how did you get into the Academy? You applied? Was it just kind of the typical application process? Did you talk to a lot of other cadets? I'm just curious what that looked like for you.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  08:08
I think I don't know if I spoke to a ton of cadets at the beginning. I remember I used to watch on YouTube, like while I was getting ready for bed, I would watch videos of like the jump team, or different anything from the Academy. And I was like, that is where I need to be. And we have a cool thing at our school where they have an entire military day. It's like on a Saturday. So, they bring every branch. They have people that represent active duty, reserve, guard, all of the academies, enlisted officer, anything that you could think of. They have them set up all in our hallway. And I knew at that point that I wanted to go to the Academy. And so, what I did is I basically printed out all of my essays that I knew that people had had to submit in the past for the Academy. I did resumes. I came with my GPA, everything, and I walked right up to my congressman, and I handed it to him, and I said, I went to him, and I said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy, and I want to be your nominee.” And I'm sure he was like, “Who's this?” So, I was very firm early on, and so we were able to start an incredible relationship with one another. And so, because I did that, I think that was maybe my junior year, early on in my junior year, when it came time my senior year, he fought for me all of the time to get my application in front of people, because I was his principal nominee, and we had a very, very special moment. So, he called me on October 31, and told me that I had gotten early acceptance to the Academy, and so I got to tell my mom, and the next morning, she passed away. So having an experience like that is… that's why the Academy and Congressman Womack are so special to me, because that was my dream for years, and my mom got to know before she passed away. And it's just everything happens at the right timing, and you never know until afterwards. And so now I get to be here. Now I get to wear the uniform, and even though she hasn’t gotten to see it, she got to know about it. And just because of those first instances where I marched up to him and I said, like, “I want to be here.” I got to have experiences like that. And now I get to have wonderful experiences of now serving post Academy life.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  10:16
I think what you just shared was so powerful in multiple ways. I think the first way is, you know, really being clear and what you wanted to do and to not, you know, take a step back and accept anything, unless you walked right up to him and said, This is what I want to do. You establish yourself, I think, and then to have, I think, that moment where he did fight for you and before your mom passed, having that, I mean, I can't even… Just share thank you for sharing that with me.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  10:45
He is also a huge part of all the scholarships and applications I've ever done. Anytime that I've ever needed someone to write me a recommendation letter. Congressman Womack has been one of the first people to do it. And I remember when I got the Truman Scholarship. I had asked them, like, what do I need to do for the because I was going to go and compete for the Rhodes and Marshall Scholarship the next year. And I was like, what were the strongest parts and what were the weakest parts of my application? And they said one of my strongest parts of my application, literally, was the letter that he wrote. They said that, like, you never get to see what they write, because they have to submit it to a portal. You're not allowed to look. And they were like, what he put in there, put everything like, pushed it far, far past the line. And I'll never know what he said, but I'm extremely grateful for him always believing in me. He actually had a really cool moment after I won Miss America this past year, he went on the floor of Congress and, like, read out all this stuff about what we had done together, being from his home district and growing up there, so it's been really cool to see how our relationship has evolved over time, because he has always supported he's such a big military promoter, and just getting to have that relationship and also use him as a mentor when times were tough at the Academy, being able to call him up and being like, I'm struggling. I know you helped me get in here, but I'm struggling right now. And he was always there to have an open mind to kind of guide me through, to make sure that I made it out at the end of the day.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  12:12
Wow. I think having those champions in life not only help us get through things, but help shape us that we will be champions for others in the future. Do you see that something that kind of was ingrained in you from that experience?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  12:22
Yes, I think, I mean, we were kind of talking about this earlier, about how I reflect on all of my experiences and look at the fact that I would have accomplished nothing without the people that had helped me, and I now want to be that person, even if it's only a little fraction in someone else's life to help them, because they recognize you don't go anywhere alone, you don't accomplish anything alone. And there have been countless mentors, teachers, family members, loved ones, that had poured into me, and now it's my turn to give that back to them.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  12:51
Amazing. So, you got into the Academy, it was a beautiful thing for you and your family, and while you were there, that's when you formed the foundation. Is that what I'm understanding from a timing perspective?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  13:03
So, I started the foundation my senior year of high school. So, my mom had passed away, and it was something that my family started literally two weeks afterwards, because watching my mom go through everything, I had recognized that we need to give something positive back to people. And a big part of just pancreatic cancer, is that educational aspect of making sure families around the nation know the signs, the warning, the warning signs, the symptoms. Because that was something that we had no clue with my mom. She was 41 years old when she was diagnosed and passed away. It was a very, very quick turnaround, and so we started it then, then I went off to the Academy. So that's something that I have fun doing on the side and learning a lot of leadership through that as well, because now we've expanded, and I lead about 20 volunteers from across the nation, and it is something that I have not done before, especially like virtually, since we have people all over. So that has been a very big learning lesson this past year, and now I'm getting to use all the cool stuff from the Academy to figure out how to lead people in and out of uniform, because that's something that has been a huge part of my life at the academy, was making sure we serve outside of this, because we have so much time. And I think at the Academy, you often feel like your life only exists inside of the black gates, but there's so much that you can do for people outside of that before you even put on the uniform every day.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  14:22
I think that's really powerful in sharing that because, you know, I think about your family, and first, I just want to thank you for sharing that difficult time. Because, you know, listeners, we have all different experiences in life, and you know, we all experience, at times, some kind of tragedy. And I think sharing how you found a way you and your family to work through that, and, like you said, kind of provide a perspective for others. You know, maybe if I could just touch on that, and we can, we can move forward while you're at the cadet, when you're a cadet. But can you just touch on, you know, how might you suggest someone find a way to get through some tragedy, maybe through a lens of leadership? Or if they're helping others that are experiencing tragedy.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  15:03
I think there were two really big parts for me. One of them was knowing when to ask for help. That is something that I talk about in academics, and that is something that I also talk about in personal life, because I wouldn't have been able to make it through the Academy had I not received help. So, one of the things that I did whenever I went through basic like I tried to quit on the first day because I was really struggling with obviously, the Academy is difficult and grieving at the same time. So, one of the things that I did to ensure that I would stay was I started seeing a therapist up on the hill. I saw chaplains all the time. I continued that through most of my freshman year, well into covid when I got sent home in 2020 because I knew that there was no way I could be able to lead in the classroom, in uniform, be there for my friends if I couldn't help myself first. So that is the first big step. It is takes a lot of courage and strength to receive help, and I think that is something, a stigma,that we're all having to overcome and change the narrative surrounding the conversation of mental health, you are strong if you get help, and everyone around you is here to help you, and I think as a friend, also being inviting, being conscious of the types of conversations about when other people that you don't know are having to receive help. Because there were definitely times that people had said about me like, “Oh, Madison's just trying to get out of training,” or, you know, you hear things like that. And so I knew that when I became a sophomore, that whoever I was leading, the one freshman that I was going to be in charge of, I could always be a safe space for them and ensuring that anytime, if they needed to go see chaplain, no questions asked, I would be there to walk them to and from the chaplain, whatever anybody needed, because I understand that that sort of help can be life-saving, and we have to be able to invite those sorts of conversations in and allow people to receive the help that they need. And I think that kind of follows throughout the entire culture of your squadron or Air Force wide, and it starts with one person, one leader, being inviting and accepting of those that need help.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  17:02
That’s so powerful, and I'm so glad that you shared that, because I do think sometimes people might think asking for help is weak, or if I just hide it, then no one knows. But I think you're right. Courage is asking for help and receiving it, and that one person like you said you champion someone else, they will do that. So, you just created this train effect of, you know, support, and I think that's really powerful. So, while you're a cadet, you know, you had amazing experiences, I'm sure. Let's talk about what leadership roles you had as a cadet, aside from being, I think, what do they call them now? So, when you are a three-degree and you have a four-degree, you're called like a coach. Okay, so could you talk about that role a little bit? So that's fairly newer…
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  17:45
Yes, it's pretty interesting. So, you go from being a freshman, which is very much so learning how to follow others, into you are assigned a freshman as soon as you hit your sophomore year. So, you'll have a cadet that has just come out of basic, and they're assigned to you, and that might be, I mean, that's many different things, like you're doing the obvious things like feedback with them, that's required. But it goes beyond that, if you make it so, because everything is a leadership opportunity Academy, if you pour into it so that could be, you know, meetings with them to check up, like, “Hey, how's school going?” Or if they're falling behind in school, like, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you pass your classes,” or, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you are going above and beyond and excelling in these areas.” You have those sorts of conversations with them, and I believe you are their protector against the upperclassmen, because obviously the freshmen, like the upperclassmen, duties are to be hard on them so that they become a better person at the end of their year. But as a sophomore, I had always taken as this is my person to protect and lead, because you're the closest first line supervisor to them. So that's how I took the position of if they needed help, if they had gotten in trouble, having those conversations with them to get them back on track, or maybe they're having some difficulty working with some upperclassmen to try to talk that through with them, to make sure our squadron was still meshing with one another. So that is the intention of the role. And you can go as little as just feedback with them, or you can do a lot. And then you also switch at the second semester, so you'll have a new freshman to lead on the back half of the year. Okay, it depends on the squadrons. Sometimes they strategically place you together, like, let's say a freshman said during basic, “I really struggle with academics,” and they knew that academics was my strong suit. We might get linked together so that they have someone that is guiding them, because they know they're going to struggle with that as soon as the school year starts. So, linking up people's weaknesses to their strengths is a big part of it.
 
 
 
Naviere Walkewicz  19:44
That makes sense. I'm glad you shared that, because I think, you know, not all of us are familiar with that, that kind of program now, and I think the term coach is really appropriate. You know, that actually makes sense, and it helps, actually, I think, inform how you can really, like you said, and embrace that role. And what I think is also a theme with you, Lieutenant Marsh, is, you know, you don't do anything just to do it. And you know you do it because you put your whole self into it. And so, while you're a cadet, maybe talk about what were some of the other things that you experienced from a leadership perspective, from peer leadership, because you know, you had the opportunity to help those you said, as you know, four-degree under you. But what about peers and up? Did you see any leadership you experienced in those realms?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  20:29
Gosh, there are so many leadership stories that I could touch on. I think one that really stands out in my mind was General Clark, who was our superintendent my time at the Academy. And I remember my sophomore year was covid gear, so we had right before recognition, or the night of recognition. My freshman year, we got sent home. I didn't return until the Fall semester. For my sophomore year, that semester was very tough because we were basically locked down. You couldn't leave. You couldn't really go see your family, and that sort of, you know, being contained in those black gates actually, literally, this time was very hard. And I remember there was a time period for at least five weeks when we were kind of stuck in your dorm, and it sucked, to say the least, but the thing that General Clark did was he was not going to ask us to do something as a leader that he was not willing to do himself. So instead of staying home with his family or going out, he came on base almost every night. He was bringing us food from Chick Fil A, Crumbl Cookie, anything that you could think of. He was doing all the cadet things like the, oh my gosh, what's it called when you pour the water?
 
Naviere Walkewicz  21:38
Oh my gosh, the carrier land, carrier landing, carrier landings, with cadets.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  21:45
That was fantastic. I mean, awesome. And then there was a night, I believe, that he set up a cot in a spare room and stayed over with the cadets. And it's leadership like that that had shown me, don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do. There's going to be times that are extremely tough, and I'm excited to be in an opportunity where I get to lead more people after this year's Miss America, and after I finish up my degree is it situations like that where you can make such an impact and show that as a leader, you are not better than the people that you are leading. You are right there, going with it, alongside them. And General Clark showed that to us from day one, and he is a leader I'm always going to remember and look up to and that was just one of the many stories that he showed that to us.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  22:25
And it sounds like that, leading by example is something that you also carry with you in your style and how you want to be seen as a leader. Yes, yes. I think that's wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about you know, you said that you've always enjoyed academics and stem so at the Academy, I understand there's an Academic Success Center. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because that's not something I'm as familiar with.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  22:48
So, under the Academic Success Center, there are, I believe, two portions of it. So, there's the Quantitative Reasoning Center and the Public Speaking Lab. And I used those all the time, sometimes daily for all four years at the Academy. So, the Quantitative Reasoning Center, they also have a writing lab underneath that, which I also used. So, they will help you with anything from uh, calc one problems to maybe engineering, or maybe you need help writing an essay, or you're not understanding your English class, or you need to help, like prep for public speaking, whatever it might be. So, I went down there all the time because my biggest thing is asking for help early and often. These are free resources that they provide.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  23:32
Does every cadet from E.I., from extra instruction? Or is it part of is extra instruction with your… it's kind of the same?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  23:37
Okay, so E.I. is with your instructor. Specifically, this is like a place down underneath the comms tower, where it's an entire wing, where people just sit there all day, and you go online and you make an appointment with them for 30 minutes, and they will be assigned to you to go through your essay with you. Or, “I really cannot get this problem on my assignment. Can you help me with it?” So, if your teacher isn't available, you can go there. It is incredible, because if you are falling behind, there's no reason you can't go to the Academic Success Center, because they have people that stay, I think, until like, eight o'clock at night. And they start, I want to, I mean, I it depends on the people, but I know that some of them started like earlier in the school day, like you could go at noon. So, let's say you have an off period, and you're an IC so you can't go after school. You could go during the day if you have time, or even later that night. So, there's so many opportunities to receive help, and I knew that if I was gonna’ go be a Truman Scholar or try to go to grad school, I needed to go 110% in all of my classes, and I couldn't do by myself. I'm not some genius guru who just understood everything. That was not how I was as a student, I did well because I got help from people that knew a lot more than me, and I tried to learn from them, and especially in English classes and history, writing is not my most favorite thing. Yeah, so I had people that did love writing that helped me, and then I think the public speaking lab is also one that is an underutilized resource for cadets. I hear a lot of people that go and use the QRC, but never the Public Speaking Lab. So I used the PSL for anything from pageant prep, whether they were watching my talent or we were going through 100 different political questions and they were grilling me on them, or I'm preparing for a scholarship interview, and how are they going to grill me on my entire life, or my stances on particular things, or my plans, anything that you could think of. They're there for a speech for your class or a presentation for a class. If you struggle with being in front of an audience, they are there to help you, and it's free. And I can tell you right now, I cannot think of many other colleges that have resources like we do, and I remember my dad telling me as a freshman, when I had told him about the Academic Success Center, he was like, “You better be going there every single day, because I can guarantee your older siblings did not have that type of opportunity,” because we have such a small environment compared to some of these big schools across the US. You get really close with your teachers, and you have the opportunity to get really close to all the people at the Academic Success Center. And that is how you go far at the Academy, and you do well. So every Cadet needs to visit there, at least at one point, because I know everyone is not strong in every area.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  26:21
Well, guess what I'm going to be telling my sons about, if you haven't, and it's for all classes. All classes, excellent. And I can assure all of our listeners, as you can also hear and see yourself, that the PSL, the public speaking lab, has been phenomenal for you.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  26:37
I love it because I think public speaking is such an important part of being an officer, being able to get up and be in a crowd briefing to very important people, those skills that you learn as a cadet are going to carry with you for the rest of your career. So, start on them early and often, so you're not freaked out the first time you're on active duty and someone very important walks in the room and you're having to talk to them.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  26:59
Exactly, exactly the low threat.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  27:00
Get over with the low threat stuff. Now, in the safe spaces, we always talk about safe spaces.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  27:02
I love that. So, let's talk about life after the Academy. Well before we go there, when you were getting your career drops and all of that, what was, what were you hoping for? We shifted from astronauts, so where did, where did you go?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  27:19
So, I actually ended up being awarded pilot as my AFSE. But one of the things that I had kind of recognized my senior year was that I was not passionate about going the astronaut route anymore, which meant I didn't want to go to grad school for physics, and I really wanted to focus more on policy and pancreatic cancer, which is why I ended up at the Harvard Kennedy School. So, I made the decision over this last year to not go to pilot training anymore, because I've recognized this entire job as Miss America, there are so many opportunities and jobs in the Air Force to do your job well. And I knew that I was not 100% passionate about the pilot career path anymore, but I could be 100% passionate about something else in the Air Force, which is going to make me do so much better at that job for the people around me. So, I'm changing my job now, and I'm very excited about it. My fiancé is still going to UPT right now, and I love getting to support him and watching that, and now moving into this new phase of my life where I'm going to get to experience another job in the Air Force.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  28:19
So, we have listeners that, you know, find themselves in a path, and they feel, “I might, be stuck here.” Now, talk a little bit about making that decision, and how can you encourage others? I think the key word you used is, “I can do more because I'm passionate about something,” but maybe talk our listeners through how you felt this was the right decision, and at that time.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  28:41
I did not come to it overnight, that is for sure. I think it took me probably two and a half years to really, finally be comfortable with it. And I think a thing that I struggled with was fear of people judging me because I was stepping away from this big dream of becoming an astronaut, which I can tell everyone right now, nobody cared whenever I stopped doing that, and that was something I was so fearful of. I thought everyone was going to be like, “Oh, she's not doing this big thing anymore. She's not going to do anything.” And that is not what happened when I started. I remember being in scholarship interviews, and one of the things that I'd received in feedback was it sounds like you're just being robotic, talking about this plan to becoming an astronaut, but when I hear you talk about pancreatic cancer, you light up, and those are the best points in your interview. And so, then that made me think. I was like, “Oh, okay, that's kind of odd that they say that I probably should think about that more,” because I thought I was really passionate about this, and my fiancé had kind of sat me down and was like, “We should, like, discuss this. Like, if you're really having second thoughts about it, because you shouldn't be forcing yourself into a career path to make other people happy.” And I remember my dad had called me after this conversation that kind of started, and he was like, “Listen, just because you told your mom you wanted to go astronaut doesn't mean that you need to do it to, like, fulfill the thing that you told her you were going to do.” He's like, “Your mom and everyone else does not care what career you end up in. All they care about is that you're doing something that makes you happy.” And through the loss of my mom, I had recognized every life is very short. Do not waste it on things you don't care about. Do not waste it on things you're not passionate about, because you're not going to do good at them. Like that's just not that's just not how you work. That's not how I work. I know that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna’ have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be, and that's why I ultimately made that change. And there were a lot of tears at first. There was a lot of second guessing, and I don't think it was really until this January, after I had started, I started interviewing a lot of people on different career paths, like I had spoken to a lot of pilots and asking them what their life was like. And it wasn't until I had interviewed them and also people that are in this profession that I thought I could be really passionate about. That's what really put it over the edge. And I felt very comfortable then with my decision of I am okay, walking away from this old dream because it's no longer my current one, and that's okay. Everyone grows up, everything changes, and that's life, and accept that. And I think because I went 110% on this astronaut path, it opened up the doors to do anything else afterwards. Just because I went down this path for eight years does not mean that I was stuck in it. Since I had worked so hard, I had opened up every single opportunity, like going to Harvard, that has now changed the trajectory of my career and my life.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  31:38
So, Lieutenant Marsh, I have to just say, even sitting here in the room, I'm inspired. I know our listeners are feeling this as well. Talk about how going to Harvard, Kennedy School. What is your vision for how this will impact and where it will take your foundation, or what does this look like to you after?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  31:56
I think a really cool thing about the fact that the Academy will send you right to grad school afterwards, is because you have so many opportunities to learn from people that are not military and a very different leadership orientation than we might have ever experienced at USAFA or in just the general Air Force. And that's been really cool. I mean, going to Harvard, we are a very small minority of military members that are there, and I'm getting to meet people from all across the globe. Over 60% of our program are international students, really, which is fascinating. Yeah, I'm getting to learn so much about their countries, their government, which I think is extremely applicable to the way that we work in the Air Force, because we are going to be having to work with a lot of these countries, and now I'm getting a deeper understanding of their perspective, their perspective on leadership, so I think that'll be really cool to see how it's going to impact my Air Force career. But my favorite part of it is the fact that it's allowed me to be really flexible, and what I focus on in public policy, my biggest thing has been pancreatic cancer. So how can I take my experience with the loss of my mom and my understanding of medicine and science now put into policy to ensure patients are receiving the best care so they are not going through what my mom went through? And another cool experience that this reminds me of is how I was talking about astronaut to now pancreatic cancer, because I went down physics instead of having to do a conventional physics project my senior year, because I went so hard in that major I was then able to do an artificial intelligence research on pancreatic cancer, wow, and apply like medical scans X-rays to the way that we detect pancreatic cancer in patients. So, it's little things like that that have opened up doors, and now I've gotten to take that research from the Academy, put that into what I'm studying at Harvard. So just so many different ways that you can apply, reapply and change across your life. So that's I'll be excited to see where I get to use it, I think, way down the road, whether I'm in the Air Force or not being able to serve my community with that degree in the leadership that I'm getting to learn there.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  34:04
I can't wait to see what you have, I mean, just in the short amount of time, the impact and drive that you have. I mean, it's kind of it blows us away. So, it's really impressive. I wanted to go back to something you mentioned about the different perspectives from the other you know, cultures and countries, especially on leadership. Was there anything particular that you took away or that surprised you, or that kind of resonated with you from some of the people you've met?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  34:29
Gosh, there are just so many times, I think one of the things that I love doing was just, I love picking people's brains. Yes, so we had, like, a house about 30 minutes away from Harvard, and what I would do, or try to do, at least once a month, is we'd have everyone bring their food from their country, and we'd have a huge spread, and everyone would just sit down and talk about their lives. And there was this one girl named Paulina that I was good friends with, and she was from Israel, and so getting to hear her perspective, because they have a very different way of military service, because it is, I think it's required for them after they turn 18. And her perspective on why that is important to their country, and comparing it now to how the US is most like, is volunteer based, and the differences in that. And so, I think that was really cool to hear from her, because it's very different than what we do here. And I mean, there are just so many students. One of them, he was a student that had lived in China almost his whole life. I think he left when he was 14 or 16 for school or work, ended up living in Canada for a long time, and now was back in the US and hearing his entire family's take on covid or military operations or their actual thoughts on America was very different, because it is not what you get to hear every day in mainstream media, because it's someone that actually lived there. So, it was every moment that you get to have there is very fascinating if you're asking the right questions and talking to the right people…
 
Naviere Walkewicz  35:57
Especially if you're open to listening.  I have to ask, what did you bring for your food dish?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  36:01
I made a, what was it, green chili chicken soup.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  36:08
Of that sounds yummy.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  36:09
Yes. I like a little spicy soup. But it was nice. I was very full that night. I think I have a whole spread of like a table that was 10 feet long, just covered in everyone.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  36:19
Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm a foodie myself, so I can appreciate that, and I would have probably partaken a little bit of everything too. So, we'd like to know, what do you your time is so busy? What do you do to what I would call like, manage your health, your balance in life? What does that look like for you?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  36:36
I was really terrible at it my freshman year at the Academy, and so I had to learn very fast to make sure I was on the right track. So, freshman year, I was struggling with grief. Obviously, the Academy is very busy, and I gave zero time back to myself ever. It was, I would get up at 6am and I was studying until midnight, and that's what I did every day. I never took Saturdays or Sundays off. I’d just go, go, go. And I think that took a very big toll on my mental health, my social life. And it wasn't until my fiancé Walker was like, “You are going to leave this place and throw up your hat and you're going to have no memories outside of your textbooks.” And I was like, “That is a terrifying thought, because you're totally right. You're 100% right. I have not poured into any of the other outside opportunities.”, and so I started doing very small things, like reading 10 pages of a book every night. That is what I forced myself to start doing sophomore year that slowly grew into, and not a textbook, not a textbook, a fun book that slowly started growing into going to the gym, making sure I have a full Saturday off to be with my friends and family, and so now that I'm having this very busy schedule, I do the same thing. I carry this very large planner around in my bag that goes down to 30 minutes, and I'm planning out every single part of my day. So, if I need to plan when I'm calling my family that goes on there, if I'm planning times to go to the gym that's on there, reading a book, anything that you could think of. That is how I stay replenished mentally. Because I know if I can't be giving that time back to myself, I can't go out and meet people and travel all the time, because everyone has their limits, and I've really had to figure out where mine are over the past couple of years and be very strict with myself to ensure that I don't pass them.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  38:20
I love that because you can't pour from an empty cup. What's the most recent fun thing you've read?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  38:28
Okay, it's this book called Quitting a Life Strategy, and it is about basically the entire social dynamic on why we look down upon people that quit things, and why that is wrong, and it just meant a lot to me after changing career paths and recognizing that quitting is not a bad word, it's not a negative word. It is a redirection in your life, and it applies to relationships, friendships, jobs, volunteer opportunities, whatever it might be. And it was all of these anecdotes about people that had hated their job and had decided to make a change and are now doing something drastically different and are exponentially more happy, and it just made me feel very certain about the path that I was on, and also more empathetic to people outside of never judging people because they're leaving a certain situation of thinking, the only person that really knows what they're going through is them. And at the end of the day, someone else's life and their decisions don't impact you, so support them. There's no reason to be negative revolving around someone else's life or your own. Just allow people to live life, do their own things. And that is exactly what that book exemplified for me.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  39:40
I love that. In fact, you make me want to read that.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  39:43
It's great title again, Quitting a Life Strategy.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  39:46
I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, so Lieutenant Marsh, one of the things that our listeners love to know, and you obviously have many talents, because you have competed in in them as well for Miss America, but what's something hidden? Or maybe something special about you that you'd be willing to share with some of our listeners?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  40:07
Oh geez. I don't know if I have, like, a hidden talent, per se. Okay, I will, okay, this is funny. Going back to the band thing earlier, okay, every time I'm home on holiday, I break out my clarinet and I try to relearn the music and play, and it really irritates my entire family, because I'm not good anymore. I'm not good anymore at all, and they're all like someone take that away from her right now. And this last time I tried playing flute for a little bit, I did not catch on to it as easily as clarinet, and I was home for Christmas, or maybe it was some other time with my fiancé and me, and he had the flu, and I had the clarinet, we were walking around the house playing it together, and they were like, “We have to deal with two of them now, instead of just one.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz  40:48
I love so, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing this. And I think what's so great, some of the things that you've shared throughout this, well, one, they've been golden. I mean, just amazing leadership lessons. But I think one of the things that has been really special is you talk about your fiancé and that support you've had with him. Maybe just share with our listeners the importance of having kind of a partner or a support network. What did that what does that look like for you? You seem like you lean on him. Does he lean on you? Or is it able to be shared?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  41:18
Yes, he is. I mean, I would not be able to do this year's Miss America, or really anything without his support, because if you can imagine, I'm traveling all the time, he's going through UPT and is extremely busy. And it's because of our dedication to each other that we're able to come back at the end of each day, calling each other, making life plans, being honest about how we're feeling. And I think that honesty and the ability to lean on each other makes it so much easier to get through everything. And I remember like I talked about earlier my freshman year, I tried to leave multiple times. I tried to leave on the first day basic, my dad told me, “You can quit, but you can't come home to our house.” So I stayed. I wanted to leave after basic, and I decided to stick it out my freshman year. And it wasn't until that Spring semester freshman year, where I had found people like walker or Dr. Anderson or different professors and mentors that I had had that made me want to stay and like I said earlier, you don't go anywhere alone, or at least, you don't go far by yourself. And so, leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life, and I've had to learn heavily on how can I be there for these people when I'm at 100% because there are definitely days when I'm at home, maybe I'm not traveling as much for Miss America in the Air Force. And Walker had just the worst, most difficult, long week, like he's having this week, lots of tests, lots of Sims, and I get to be there for him, to support him at the end of it. And it's that give and take and understanding that, above all else, we are number one to each other, and that's something that we talk about it a lot, especially when it comes to career planning. For me, our number one is ensuring that we get to be together. Everything else is secondary, because I know I can't go 100% in my job if I don't have my partner there with me, and he feels the same, and so trying to plan life out in a way that always puts us as the priority no matter what. So, he's been very special. And I think you can also get that outside of a partnership, whether that is someone that is your mentor or a family member or a friend, right?
 
Naviere Walkewicz  43:20
I think that was a key kind of takeaway that you shared there about first making sure you know what your priorities are, and then staying true to them. So, Lieutenant Marsh, there's two more things we have in this one, and I'll give you a little precursor: I'm going to ask you if there's anything that we didn't talk about there. I didn't ask you that you want to make sure that our listeners have a chance to hear and then the second thing is, we're gonna’ have kind of those, those few key takeaways that you really want them to kind of indulge in from your perspective. So maybe with the first one, is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted to chat about today?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  43:54
I feel like this is gonna’ go into the leadership piece of it. And I just think it is so important to be an empathetic leader, kind of tying back into the mental health I had heard a story once about someone who had someone underneath them that they were leading, and they kept saying that, “Oh, this person's getting in trouble. They're not showing up to meetings. They just don't care. They are just a bad Airman.” When their supervisor had actually sat down and spoken to them, they had actually admitted that they were struggling a lot with depression and needed help, and it takes one person to sit down and have that very like quick conversation of just asking how people are every day and being genuine about it that could change someone's life, and ensuring that you know there are probably going to be people that you're going to lead, that are going to mess up, but be there for them, lead them, be empathetic and make sure that your people are okay. That is your duty as a leader, and that is something from that story I had learned, and now I have to take through the rest of my career to be cognizant of what my people are going through. Maybe they're struggling something with their family. Maybe they're struggling. With something personally, maybe like me, they need help figuring out their rest of their life and their career, and it's just things like that where you can make such an impact on people if you make the time to have those conversations with them, and that is being an empathetic leader, above all else, can really help your people go far, because if you're not focusing on them, they're not going to feel attached to the work that you all do together. But if you can be unified and stick up for one another, you can do so, so much more.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  45:29
Oh man, it's always about the people, right? It's always and I think what you said was really key, and that was asking the question, versus either, you know, just kind of going in and directing, but being really open to listen so well. So now, Lieutenant Marsh, because I know everyone is hanging on to hear what you might leave them with, what really is, what guides you in leadership, and what are the few things that you'd like our listeners to kind of take away?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  46:15
I would say, going back to earlier, being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself. And I think those are the two biggest things that I look for. And I've gained at the Academy and now post Academy life, because I'm always looking for things in leadership that I want to take away and things that I don't. And those are the two biggest things that I want to carry in my little toolbox for the rest of my career. And another important personal piece, whether it applies to your job, personal life, family life, whatever it might be, is always doing something that you love. Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about. If you are passionate, you're going to go so much further and you're going to be happy. That is the only thing that you can really take away from life, is the happiness that one you provided yourself and you can give to other people, and you can only do that if you're doing work that is worthwhile to you. So keeping that in mind, no matter the strife that you might go through or potential changes that you're going to go through in your career and your life, is holding that near and dear to your heart.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  47:21
So, this has been an absolute pleasure to just spend this time with you. Lieutenant Marsh, I have to ask, as a graduate and the graduate community, you know, I've enjoyed listening to your story, what can we do to continue to support you?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  47:34
I think the biggest thing that all AOG can do and long blue line is really just being there for the cadets, because it is conversations like this, opportunities to talk on a podcast like this that maybe cadets can listen to, or being mentors for them. That's what helps them get through it, and that's how we create great leaders, is by pouring back into our community where we came from. I know we talked about that earlier off camera. That's the biggest thing for me, looking at the people that gave back to me, and now that I'm a grad, just loving to be a part of this, to give back to the people that are now coming up and are going to be following behind us.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  48:07
Thank you for being such an outstanding I think, leader, influencer, and we can't wait to share in this journey with you.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 
Thank you.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 
Thanks for your time.
 
KEYWORDS
People, cadet, Academy, leadership, pancreatic cancer, freshman, Academic Success Center, astronaut, family, sharing, empathy, empathetic, experience, lieutenant, cool, listeners, Marsh, passionate, learn
 
 
 
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 
 

Brig. Gen. Gavin Marks ’96 discusses the absolute importance of standards and integrity in leadership, and how a new, more rigorous approach at the Academy will build that in to cadets making them Day-1 leaders.
SUMMARY
Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks, Commandant of the Air Force Academy, shares his journey from being a young man in Atlanta, Georgia to becoming a pilot and eventually serving as the Commandant. He discusses his experiences at the Air Force Academy, including basic cadet training and the challenges he faced. General Marks emphasizes the importance of perseverance, leaning on support networks, and maintaining high standards in leadership. He also reflects on the impact of the Academy on his personal and professional development. General Gavin Marks reflects on his personal journey and the impact of his wife on his military career. He discusses the importance of being adaptable and humble as a leader and the unique responsibilities of command. He shares his decision to return to the Air Force Academy and the changes he is implementing to better prepare cadets for the challenges of great power competition. General Marks emphasizes the love and passion that the leaders at the Academy have for developing future officers and encourages listeners to continue dreaming big.
 
OUR FAVORITE QUOTES
"How you do anything is how you do everything."
"There's always somebody better."
"I want to make sure that they feel like they got their money's worth from a military development perspective or military training perspective." 
"The leaders at the Air Force Academy, from top to bottom, love deeply, deeply love the institution, and are incredibly passionate about the development of these young men and women into officers in the Air Force and the Space Force."
"Continue to dream big. Don't let anyone dissuade you from goals that you have. And as it relates specifically to the Air Force Academy, it is absolutely worth it."
 
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CHAPTERS
00:00:  Introduction and Background
01:53:  Returning to the Air Force Academy
02:52:  Young Gavin Marks: Childhood and Calling to Serve
07:04:  Challenges and Growth in Basic Cadet Training
08:29:  Lessons in Leadership and Perseverance
11:45:  Choosing the Air Force Academy and Pilot Training
15:06:  Reflections on the Academy's Impact
20:52:  Leadership Experiences as a Cadet
23:43:  Lessons in Leadership and Perception
27:55:  Successes and Career Progression
32:35:  Meeting His Wife and Reflecting on Tinker Air Force Base
37:25:  Personal Journey and the Impact of Relationships
57:54:  Changes in the Life of a Cadet
01:05:48:  Challenges and Partnerships
01:09:39:  Rigor and Expectations
01:11:09:  Love and Passion for Developing Future Officers
01:12:34:  The Value and Worth of Attending the Air Force Academy
 
TAKEAWAYS
The importance of perseverance, resilience, and grit in overcoming challenges, especially during difficult experiences like the Air Force Academy.
The value of having a strong support network, including family and friends, to help navigate challenging times.
The significance of leadership roles and experiences during the Air Force Academy in shaping one's development and future success.
The Air Force Academy's focus on evolving its training and development methods to better prepare cadets for the challenges of great power competition.
The deep passion and commitment of the Air Force Academy's leadership in developing leaders of character who are ready to serve their country.
 
ABOUT GEN. MARKS
BRIG. GEN. MARKS' BIO
Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks is the Commandant of Cadets, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colorado. He commands the 4,300-member Cadet Wing and more than 200 Air Force and civilian personnel. He guides military, leadership, character development, Basic Cadet Training and Expeditionary Skills Training for the Air Force Cadet Wing in addition to providing facilities and logistical support. 
Brig. Gen. Marks earned his commission from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1996 and his pilot wings from Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training at Columbus Air Force Base, Mississippi, in 1998. Brig. Gen. Marks has served as a T-1A instructor pilot (at both the undergraduate and graduate training levels) and flight examiner, an E-3B/C instructor pilot and flight examiner, an Air Force Intern, a staff officer on multiple joint staffs, and has commanded at the squadron and wing levels. 
Prior to his current assignment, he served as the Director, Electromagnetic Spectrum Superiority, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C.  
Brig. Gen. Marks is a command pilot with more than 3,400 flying hours in the T-3, T-37, T-1A, E-3B/C/G, RC-135S/U/V, TC-135W, OC-135B, and WC-135C aircraft.  
- Copy credit:  AF.MIL
 
CONNECT WITH GEN. MARKS
INSTAGRAM: @‌USAFACOMMANDANT
 
 
ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP
Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!
    
 
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS
Guest:  Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks ’96  |  Host:  Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Naviere Walkewicz 00:01
My guest today is Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks, USAFA Class of ’96, and currently serving as the commandant of the Air Force Academy. This is his third command position since becoming a member of the Air Force. Gen. Marks was drawn to service as a young man in Atlanta, Georgia, and joined the Junior ROTC program in high school before coming to the Academy in 1992. After he graduated, he became a pilot and flew for 26 years, in addition to continuing his personal and professional development. In 2000, Gen. Marks graduated with distinction from Squadron Officer School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. In 2015, he again graduated with distinction from the National War College at Fort McNair in Washington, D.C. He has held command positions at the squadron and wing levels. His attachment to the Academy has remained strong, so much so that 20 years ago, he committed to returning and had been working his way back to USAFA when he was called to service, assuming his role as commandant in 2023. Gen. Marks, it is a pleasure. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for being here.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 01:03
Thank you very much. It is an honor for me to be here. It really is.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 01:07
This is an exciting time for us, because especially for me, being a Class of 1999 — “Gold will shine” — I had to get that in there. We go back to Arnold Hall in Basic Cadet Training, when you were the commandant of cadets during Basic Cadet Training for us. So I remember you vividly as your taps from your shoes hit the floor in Arnold Hall. So this is truly a pleasure, sir, thank you.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 01:29
It is absolutely surreal to be back, and especially during this period that we're in right now during Basic Cadet Training, and as I interact with basic cadets and the cadre, it's hard not to reminisce about that time. It's hard not to share stories as well. I'm careful that I don't inundate the cadets with my stories of when I was the Basic Cadet Training commander. But it's just it's absolutely wonderful to be back here. Yeah, really is.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 01:53
Well, we'll get to hear some of those, I think, you know, from your perspective, back then, and also, more recently, as we weave through this podcast. But really excited. And where we like to start is when we go back to young Gavin Marks. So Gen. Marks, tell us about what you were like as a child.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 02:08
My mother would tell you that I was precocious, that I was inquisitive. I was very, very talkative as well. So I have an older brother, and we are the sons of two parents that have been married for 55 years, and that's important, because 55 years is a long time, and it taught me the value of being committed. It also taught me the value of what love really looks like, up close and personal as well. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia, as you mentioned, so I'm a product of the South. I am a product of public schools, Baptist churches and Southern upbringing. So, I love sweet tea. I love this disgusting candy called Sugar Babies. And just about anything that you think of with regard to the South, you could probably say that that's pretty accurate as it relates to me and my personality as well. I call everyone ma'am and sir, regardless of rank, just based on my upbringing as well.
I really would tell you that I got a calling to serve in the military by virtue of JROTC. I followed my brother into JROTC. We went to different high schools, and he enjoyed it, but it just wasn't his calling. I got involved in it and knew immediately that it was something that I wanted to do. I love shining my shoes. I love shining the brass belt buckle that I had on my trousers. I love marching. I love drill. I did Color Guard. I did Drill Team. It was wonderful for me. It was, I think, the thing that was missing in my life in terms of knowing what my niche was going to be. And so, my professor at that time in that particular JROTC program, I think he saw something in me, and he was the first one to actually bring up a military service academy. Prior to that point, I hadn't heard of anything about West Point or Annapolis or the Air Force Academy at all. And so, I took a trip with my father and we went out to all three and I can't swim, and so Annapolis was pretty difficult for me to wrap my mind around. West Point was too gray. You know, this is a 17-year-old at the time, or a 16-year-old at the time thinking these things. It's like, “Wow, this was really gray and dreary.” No offense to West Point. And then I got to the Air Force Academy, and I remember stepping off the plane and again, coming from Atlanta, Georgia, to see the snow-capped mountains, to immediately be able to feel the difference in the air, I knew that this was the place that I wanted to be. And so, I told my dad right then, as we stepped off the plane, I said, “This is it.” And he said, “What do you know about this place? You haven't even gone here yet.” But I knew, and the rest, as they say, is history.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 04:48
Wow. So, neither your parents served and your brother was the first kind of introduction to Junior ROTC. What was that like growing up without having that, in Atlanta, not having that military, I guess, presence around you, and you said that’s what you learned was missing. But what kind of got you to that point?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 05:08
So, I would say, just to be clear, so dad did not have a career in the military, but my father and my uncle both were drafted in Vietnam, and so to that extent, what I would say is, while there wasn't discussions or a lot of military impact in my household, I think, more than anything else, just through watching television, et cetera, there was something about the discipline. There was something about the professionalism. There was something about how revered those that are in service to their nation were in this country that really drew me to the profession of arms. It was just something about the fact that this is a career field. This is a profession that is extremely highly regarded across all facets of life, and I wanted to be a part of it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 06:03
So, as a young man in public school, did you find yourself drawn to things, like, I started to think about programs that were like discipline-based, like taekwondo or sports in that manner. Did you have some of those experiences as young man?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 06:16
I played — I ran track, following after my brother. My brother thrived in track and field. I followed him, and I absolutely loathed it. I was not athletically inclined, and try as I might, you know, I work out and I try to stay in good shape, but I would not call myself necessarily an athlete of the highest order by any stretch. And so that absolutely was an albatross around my neck coming to the Air Force Academy, especially during basic training, especially during Jacks Valley.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 06:52
Well, let's talk about that a little bit. Was there a specific instance in Jacks Valley where — because I feel like now you might be able to run circles around some of us.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 07:01
Well, I will tell you — so, what I remember a lot about Jacks Valley, I remember the power-line runs. And back then we had the M1 Garand, 11, 12 pounds and we carried it everywhere. And it was heavy. You know, 12 pounds doesn't seem like it's heavy, but it's heavy when you're at port arms, and you're running for miles and miles on end, and the altitude, obviously, is vastly different. Jacks Valley is very dusty. You know, “Jacks Hack” is a thing. And so, all of those things, in aggregate, really caused me a lot of trouble. And so, what I remember is thinking often “I'm not going to make this. This is not going to happen for me,” in terms of graduating out of basic training, because I am falling behind in my runs, et cetera, et cetera. But I made it. I made it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 07:56
I love that. And I think for some of our listeners, the key thing, even just in that one was, you know, you didn't give up. You recognized you just had to keep working at it, and you got through it. And you're now serving as a commandant of cadets. So, I feel like there's definitely a story here that talks about you and your grit and your perseverance and everything throughout these years.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 08:15
The thing that I took from the Air Force Academy experience probably more than anything else — and there are several things that I took from it — is that this is a an incredibly difficult journey that is made better if you think about it from the perspective of just taking one step at a time every single day. Just show up, just show up, just be present, and that's 80% of it. If you just keep showing up, you are going to be OK. And so that was my mentality: They were going to have to kick me out. I was not going to self-eliminate at all. And so, no matter how slowly I ran back, then they were going to have to kick me out and I was going to keep showing up.
The other thing is, I would say this: I had tremendous teammates. Our squad, well, in Jacks Valley, our flight, which became our squadron — we were so close, even back then. And if one of us was falling behind, “Come on, Gavin, let's go. Pick it up.” And that really helped a lot, because you didn't want to let your teammates down.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 09:22
So, we got a little glimpse of Jacks. So I'm just gonna’ dial it back just real quick, back to the point where you said to your dad, “This is it. This is where I'm going.” So, what was that journey like from Junior ROTC to getting into the Academy? Because I think a lot of people want to know what that looked like for you.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 09:38
So, I knew that from probably my junior year in high school that I wanted to go into the Air Force or to into the military. I didn't know which branch to be perfectly clear. So I applied to all three service academies. I applied to The Citadel and I applied to VMI and to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Those are all of the ones that I could think of at the time, and the visits helped a lot to crystallize in my mind what I wanted to do. But what really also helped was this fascination with flying. Originally, I wanted to be an astronaut, a dentist, a doctor, an actor, and so many different things when you're growing up, but the idea of flying was really at the forefront of my mind as well. I also knew I wanted to lead. And so, combining those two desires, it made sense to go to the Air Force Academy. And again, I couldn't swim. I tried as much as I possibly could to learn how to swim through the YMCA, et cetera. I'm a product of basic swimming at the Air Force Academy — twice. If I'm being completely candid with you and your listeners, if I could have swam at the time, it is likely that I would have gone to Annapolis, and it is likely that I would have been a Marine, because that is much more, at least in my thinking back then, in line with my personality. Because I am — I will just say the military pillar of the Air Force Academy was, as the young people would say, that's my jam, for sure.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 11:15
I can see that. While I appreciate that, I can see that. We're so glad that we were able to get you here at the Air Force Academy. So, let's talk about your time at the Academy. You wanted to be an astronaut. You turn the dials toward pilot. Let's talk about what that experience looked like.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 11:30
So, the Academy was very, very challenging. What made it challenging primarily was the balance of so many requirements, and that's on purpose. It is rigorous on purpose because the profession of arms requires it, and the nation needs it, it deserves it. I wasn't prepared for it. High school — I wouldn't say high school came easy for me. I would say I did well in high school, and I did well in high school by virtue of cramming and by virtue of instincts. So, I came to the Air Force Academy not really knowing how to study. I didn't know how to prioritize tasks or manage tasks well at all. And the Academy humbled me tremendously.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Can you share a story about that?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
Oh, well, I would say this, and the dean, who I know has also been on the Long Blue Leadership podcast as well, she would cringe. So, I never got an F, I'm proud to say, but I certainly am on the team of Ds. I received a D in Aero, and, if I recall, Astro, civil engineering when we had that as a core as well. And that was an incredibly humbling experience for me, because prior to that point, I had never had anything in my career lower than a C in high school or anything like that. And so that kind of thing makes you think, “What am I doing wrong here?” And as you are engaged in that type of introspection, you're still having to get ready for the PFT, and you're still having to get ready for this chemistry test, and you're still having to shine your shoes and get ready for this knowledge test, et cetera, et cetera. And so it was just in my mind, based on my training to that point, not enough time in the day for the reflection that I needed in order to make some changes to my habit pattern. And you're just trying to survive, and you're just showing up every day, one step at a time. So that made it very difficult: the inability for me to study, to not know how to study, the prioritization of tasks. I loved the military piece, and I probably spent more time on that than I should have spent on other things.
 
My roommates would often comment on the fact that I would be shining my shoes for hours, and I would bypass the need to study until the last minute, until the test came. And that didn't work out very well for me. The other thing I would tell you is this: I wouldn't say that I got homesick, but it was a long way from home. It really was, and so going home really helped to fill my cup back up in terms of just being able to reacclimate with my family and those that were around me — extended family, church, friends, et cetera. It was a long way from home.
 
I developed a lot of great friends in my squadron. We were in the same squadron all four years, Way of Life committee, gospel choir at the time as well. And then this team of friends that I had on the Cadet Honor Guard as well. What an interesting year that was on the Cadet Honor Guard. But we became incredibly close, and they're still close to this day.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 14:47
So, I'd like to talk more about the Honor Guard, but before we get there, I think it's important for people to understand that when you find yourself in those tough situations in life and in experiences, how did you pull yourself out of that? You know, you obviously got through. So, something had to change. How did you maneuver that?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 15:06
So, I will start by saying this: I talked to my parents a lot, and their support was incredibly helpful for me. They approached it from a different perspective. You know, I learned a lot of great things from both of my parents: hard work, my father's work ethic, my mother and unconditional love and what that truly means. And so, when I'm talking to my parents about the rigors of the Academy experience, my mom would say, “You know, baby you can just quit and come on home and go to Georgia Tech. It's right around the corner, and we'd love to have you, and you don't need this.” And my dad would say, “You better not quit. If you come home, it's for Christmas and you're going back.” And reflecting on both of those comments, my mother was basically saying, “No matter what, we're gonna’ love you.” My dad was saying, “No matter what, you can do this, I know you can do it.” And the amalgamation of those emotions and those messages really helped me a lot. It let me know that no matter what, I have support, but I also have the confidence of my parents as well, that leaning on friends is — the friend groups that I talked about as well was really important. And then to a large extent, I would say this: The ability to dig deep inside and pull yourself up even when you are struggling, or even when you are faltering, to be able to show up the next day is really, really important, that grit, that resilience — the thing that we preach to our cadets about now we try to instill in them through the rigors of the Academy experience. It's really important. It's not only important at the Air Force Academy, it's important throughout life, because life obviously throws so many different curveballs your way, right?
 
Naviere Walkewicz 17:11
I appreciate that you shared that leaning into your support network, not only for their love and their confidence in you, but also it sounds like there was a bit of asking for help and what that was, and so I think that's important for people to hear too. While you are having to pull yourself up, there's no shame in asking for help along the way.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 17:27
Not at all. And I would tell you, my mother has so many letters at home and letters that I don't even remember writing during my time at the Air Force Academy, where I was explaining to her different things that were going on that would bring a smile to my face now, because I would be shocked that I would have said these things to my mother or my father in terms of what was taking place and the help that I perhaps needed at the time.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 17:53
That's great perspective. So, you mentioned Honor Guard, and what an incredible year. I was not part of Honor Guard, but I did appreciate how they helped us stay militarily ready. What was that journey like for you?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 18:08
Hard. It was very, very difficult. What I would say is this: So the Cadet Honor Guard attracted me because of the discipline that they had, that they have because of what they represented for the institution as well. These were the cadets that in every formation, carried our nation's flag. These were the cadets that were held up as the example of what a good uniform looked like and what military professionals should strive to look like and resemble and the precision with which they drilled was incredibly impressive to me. And so, when they had an opportunity to showcase what they were about to the fourth-class cadets at the time, so that we could show interest in different clubs, et cetera…
 
Naviere Walkewicz 19:02
Because you had to try out for honor guard. Is that correct, sir?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 19:06
I'm trying to think if I would call it a try-out.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That’s probably not the right word.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I think it's probably one of the greatest examples that I can talk to about just showing up, which is to say, “Come one, come all, and there's going to be a lot of physical activity, a lot of running, a lot of drill work, et cetera, all meant to condition you and build your endurance for challenging times when you're in formation, and bad weather and things of that nature, because you know, when you're carrying the nation's flag, it's a no-fail mission, and you can't drop it. And it doesn't matter that it's 20 degrees and 50 knots of wind, you can't drop it.” And so how do I build that into you: the importance of what you're doing means to not only this institution, not only to the Cadet Wing, but to the nation as well? It was a grueling year. It was a hard year. And so I think we started probably with 70-ish fourth-class cadets, and our team ended up at the conclusion at about 16. And that was our team, and that was the team that we carried forth throughout the remainder of our time at the Air Force Academy. And again, I still stay in touch with them to this day. It was a fantastic group of people.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 20:35
That's incredible. So aside from Honor Guard and some of the time that you spent as a cadet, let's talk about your leadership as a cadet, because you've had multiple positions of leadership.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 20:47
So, the two that resonate most with me right now, and that I gained a tremendous amount from — the summer leading into my two-degree year I was the Basic Cadet Training group training non-commissioned officer. That's a mouthful, and so the privilege of being able to, and I'm gonna’ use air quotes, “greet” every new appointee as they arrived on the bus to the base of the ramp was given to me, and it was quite an honor. And so, I got to get on the bus and welcome every single basic cadet in the Class of 1998. I will never forget that. And then the next summer, I was the Basic Cadet Training commander, like you were talking about in your earlier comments,
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I definitely recall that.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I had a lot of fun, and beyond the fun that you have as cadre during Basic Cadet Training, I had a lot of fun in this regard. As the training NCO, seeing the progress, the development of the basic cadets from I-day, or from that first day of basic training, until the Acceptance Day Parade, if you will, or until we handed them off to the Jacks Valley cadre was something that I really appreciated, because it was very, very noticeable: the changes in drill, the changes in customs and courtesies, the changes in uniform wear, the changes in Mitchell Hall decorum, the changes in how they kept their rooms, et cetera. It was noticeable. And I really appreciated being able to see the fruit of the labor of the cadre. As the BCT commander in so much that you can learn executive-level leadership as a cadet, it taught me a lot about that. So this is the first time that I had an opportunity to conduct my own staff meetings, to build my own staff, to chart a vision, to set objectives, to hold accountable. It taught me a tremendous amount beyond the fun and the great memories of walking across the stage with my taps on during the Fourth of July at A-Hall, which I absolutely still remember to this day, I absolutely remember to this day.
But both of those experiences are indelible for me at this point. And I talked to the BCT cadre about them now, because I want them to know that this time that they have is so precious, precious not only because of the memories that they're going to make, but precious because of the impact that they're going to have on these basic cadets. They will remember them forever. They will remember them forever.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 23:30
Truth. So, I think one of the things that is so unique about that: You said, it was the first time you had the experience of conducting kind of your own operations, or what that looked like, the battle rhythm, the vision. I think a lot of our listeners, you know, they look at you, you're a general, you've been a leader. You know all this. What are some of the things you learned about yourself in that experience that maybe you would share just some lessons in leadership in the early parts of your leadership journey?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 23:55
So, I learned very early on, probably as a three degree, that standards really, really matter. It crystallized for me as a probably a three degree, and it just continued to resonate throughout the rest of my career that standards matter greatly in our profession, and perhaps across all walks of life. They matter because of the fact that if we allow someone to not be questioned about meeting standards, we will likely allow further deterioration down the road and erosion down the road, which could lead to catastrophic occurrences. And I've seen it in numerous instances, whether we're talking about accidents, aircraft accidents, whether we're talking about units that have toxic cultures. Because oftentimes it starts with the breadcrumbs that you can walk back to the erosion of standards.
There's a line that I love in John Wick. I'm a big John Wick fan. The fourth movie, the bad guy, I don't remember his name, said that his father used to tell him, “How you do anything is how you do everything.” And that is so powerful to me. It is so incredibly powerful. “How you do anything is how you do everything.” I believe that. I truly, truly do. And I learned that for the really, for the first time, as a three degree. I would also tell you perception matters. And I learned that as a firstie as well. How you conduct yourself — as Patton would say, “You're always on parade.” It's important. And if your staff thinks that you are cutting corners here or showing favoritism there, whether that's true or not, it's their reality, and they are going to respond based on how they view their reality, how they view the world in that context. And so, I as a firstie through the experience of the BCT group commander, began to truly pay attention to what perceptions I was perhaps enabling. How about I put it that way? Those are two that come to mind in terms of lessons in leadership that I learned here at the Air Force Academy. When I talk about the idea of building a staff and running a staff meeting, they seem minor. Building the staff was important because it was at that time that I realized that while I may have some things that I'm pretty good at, there are a lot of things that I'm not, and I want to surround myself with people that are good in those areas that I'm not. And so I was very, very deliberate in who I surrounded myself with from a BCT group staff perspective. And then I would also say it's important to, especially when you walk into a group for the first time, to know what you're going to say, to have an agenda for how you want to run things. Because that first impression when you walk in as the leader, as the boss, as the commander, et cetera, it's gonna matter. It is absolutely gonna matter, and you will never have another opportunity to make a good first impression. And so, I could go on and on. I learned a lot from my experiences here in leadership at the Air Force Academy.
 
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Those are excellent examples.
 
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
That's why I wanted to come back. While I understood what standards meant and the importance of them as a three degree, I didn't fully put together the impact that the Academy had on me until I was a captain. Leaving here, probably like you and others, I drove away as fast as I could.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
The rear-view mirror…
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
Absolutely, and I told myself that I would never be back here.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Really?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I really did at that time, because enough time hadn't passed to allow me to reconcile all of the wonderful things that had taken place in my development during that four-year period. And it wasn't until I was a captain that I realized that who I was as a function of the Air Force was in large part due to the development that I had received at the Air Force Academy. I credit my parents as well, for sure, but the Air Force Academy, for sure, had a lot to do with that, and I wanted to give that back to other cadets.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 29:03
Was that in a moment of reflection that you realized that, or was that — did something happen where you were like, “Wow, that's something that I kind of took from the Academy.”? How did you come to that realization?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 29:15
I was having — a lot of positive things occurred to me in my career. At that point, I was having a lot of successes, and at some point, I thought about the fact that while certainly I am truly blessed, and certainly there is some luck that plays into that as well, I at some point, through introspection, just kind of look back on the journey that I had gone through from being the knucklehead kid from Atlanta, Georgia, to being this captain in the Air Force, and the metamorphosis that occurred and how that happened. And, so I can only attribute it — some of that, again, is the development over time, when your parents are teaching you things and instilling values and virtue into you, and at the time, when you're a know-it-all teenager, you don't think that it's sinking in, but it does, and it shapes you over time. So, some of it's that, but some of it was the Academy itself.
I will tell you this: So, there was a program that I participated in as a junior, I guess, in high school, where I got to come to the Academy for an overnight visit. And I stayed with a cadet, and what I remember about that is this: So I think I stayed two nights. But the first night I went to a pay phone to call a friend, and there was a $20 bill at the top of the pay phone. And so, I went back to the room to tell the cadet, “Hey, somebody left some money there,” and he said, “Don't worry about it. Whoever left it, they'll remember that they left it there, and they'll come back and get it.” And I was bewildered. I was like, I don't understand how that's possible. OK, so the next night, I went to the same pay phone, and it was still there. And I was blown away, and I never forgot that, that this is a place where honor really, really matters. And certainly my parents have integrity, and certainly they, you know, preached and instilled those types of values, but here at the United States Air Force Academy, it was practiced every single day, and it was visibly discernible to me throughout all facets of the Academy experience that undergirding these, you know, push-ups that I was doing and this chemistry test that I was taking, et cetera, was this honor code and these core values that all of us together share. And I just absolutely love that. Reflecting on that over the course of seven years changed my life, truly, for the better.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 32:15
Thank you for sharing that story. And I actually got chill bumps just thinking about, well, I mean, but you're, right now, you can't think about a lot of places where you can leave something and it's probably still going to be there, or if it was identifiable, it would probably been returned. So, I think that is something we can be so proud of. So, you mentioned, sir, some of your successes. They were kind of, you know, happening outside of the Academy once you'd graduated. Let's talk about what your career looked like and what those successes were.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 32:50
So, I was a casual lieutenant. And I guess the claim to fame that I have is that I was Gen. Lorenz’s casual lieutenant. So Gen. Lorenz was the commandant immediately after I graduated, went on to become a four-star general, and he is still incredibly active here in the Academy community, and being his casual lieutenant, specifically, his special projects officer, was enlightening in a lot of different ways. Gen. Lorenz is a great leader. He's a unique leader as well. And I learned a lot from being in his space, being in his presence, and seeing how he conducted business. Interestingly enough, when you walk up to the office spaces of the Cadet Wing where my office is, in the hallway is a display of all the previous commandants and their biographies. That was one of my projects as a lieutenant, believe it or not, a long, long, long, long time ago. And so, it gave me an opportunity to be able to research all of the previous commandants to that point and see the commonalities between them as well.
So I did that for a little less than a year, and then I went to pilot training. Pilot training was hard. Pilot training was very, very hard. In fact, I came back, if I recall correctly, either in the middle of pilot training or just as I was graduating to talk to the Cadet Wing, the Class of 1998 — one of the classes, ’98 or ’99 — invited me back to talk at M5.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I'd like to say it was us.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I would like to say it was you all too.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Can I claim it?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
And you all gave me the bird, and it was wonderful, and I still have that bird in my office to this day. And I talked about how hard pilot training was, but maybe you'll remember this. I listed the top five hardest things that I've ever done in my life to that point, and I can't remember — I remember No. 1, but I can't remember the exact order, but it was something along the lines of the four-degree year, the entire cadet experience, pilot training, SERE at the time, and my four-degree Honor Guard experience was No. 1 for sure. But all of that to say, just being able to come back to the Academy was a tremendous honor, especially for this silly second, actually, I was a first lieutenant at the time. So went to pilot training and then was selected to be able to stay at pilot training and be an instructor. I went from Columbus to Vance Air Force Base and did that for three years in the T-1, which I absolutely loved. The T-1, that aircraft was probably, if I had the resources, if I was well healed, I would buy myself a T-1 and if I could afford the maintenance. I absolutely love flying that plane and enjoyed my time in AETC. And really, there's nothing special about me. When you enjoy what you're doing and feel like you have a passion for it, oftentimes you're going to do well. I think that's that holds true for just about anybody. I did pretty well in the T-1. After that, I went to an internship at the Pentagon, and so I was there on 9/11 and I got my master’s in D.C., left there. After that, I went to Tinker Air Force Base. I did not want to go fly AWACS, and I love AWACS now, but I did not at the time. And I remember when I drove up to the gate for the first time after my year in D.C., and the Security Forces airmen that saw me at the gate asked me, “Are you OK?” just based on the, luckily, based on the look on my face after driving cross country. But what was special about Tinker is that that is where I truly learned, as I would call it, meat-and-potatoes flying, stick-and-rudder flying, no kidding, no thrills and frills. In the AWACS aircraft, you've got to know how to move that jet where you need it to move. You've got to know how to compensate for the aerodynamics of the roto-dome when you're refueling, you've got to know how to fly. And I so it was very enjoyable in that regard, and just being operational was enjoyable. Tinker, though, what I will always credit Tinker for is this: Tinker is where I met my wife.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 37:15
So I was gonna’ ask when the magic happened.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 37:19
Yeah, it happened at Tinker. We met through a mutual friend and so, interestingly enough, I always say that the two best decisions I ever made in my entire life, I show on my left and my right hand: my wedding ring on my left, my class ring on my right. Best decisions I've ever made for myself. My wife is retired Air Force 23 years, and she was a first lieutenant, I was a captain. We met through a mutual friend and became friends, and over time, over a period of about a year and a half, we started dating. I asked her to marry me after another year and a half or so, probably a little longer than I should have waited. So, I arrived in 2002, we were married in 2005.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 37:59
Was her uniform better than yours, sir.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 38:05
Oh, goodness, no. So my wife, she will listen to this. My wife would tell you that she has had a wonderful 23-year Air Force journey. Started off with 13 years enlisted time and went to OTS, et cetera. My wife would tell you that I am, I think the term is, I am very “ate up” in terms of the military. Hopefully your listeners know what that means.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 38:32
Yes.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
She was not, at all. Not at all. That was not her personality.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
They say opposites attract.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 38:35
But I think really, more than anything, what I loved about her, beyond her candor and her honesty, was her compassion as well, her intellect, her ability to be able to see the world in a different way than I saw it — for us to respect each other's opinions about different things, for her difference of a net of opinion, but how she viewed the Air Force and her journey through the Air Force differently than I viewed mine. But we respected each other's nonetheless. And my wife is the reason why I'm still serving and I say that because of this, if my wife was not still in love with this Air Force journey, I would have stopped. I absolutely would have, because being married — and our family is, I hate to say it, is more important to me, truly it is. And so, I would have absolutely stopped. But she loves it. I loathe PCSing. Can't stand it. I'm in a great career field, but my wife loves it, loves the excitement, loves thinking about what's next. And so as long as she's enjoying it, I'm enjoying it too. Yeah, she's my best friend, my best friend for sure. So, we met after that, got married. Fast forward, I left Tinker and went to a Staff assignment in Suffolk, Virginia, stayed there for about three years, went back to the T-1 as a director of operations, a commander in the 99th of Tuskegee Airmen heritage. Then I went to National War College, went to Staff, went back to Tinker, 10 years as the vice wing commander, Offut as the wing commander, back to Staff again, and then here as the commandant.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 40:32
So, when did the idea trickle back to the mind of, “I want to get back to the Academy?” How did that come into play? Was that just a natural progression of your career? Or how? How does one navigate that?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 40:43
So, it was at the time this realization that it had changed me so much and so positively. How can I be a part of another person's just incredible admiration for the experience and appreciation for the experience that they had while they were here? And so, I started investigating becoming an AOC, because at the time, that was where my status in life was in terms of rank, and was the most appropriate, if you will. It just didn't work out for me in terms of the timing.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 41:24
So, you'd already been looking throughout your career to come back.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 41:27
At different points in my career, so about the seven-year point is when I said, “No, I would really like to go back and give back.” And now it's a function of trying to maneuver the timing and all of the other facets that make up an assignment and career progression to try to see how that could work. As an Air Force intern, that counted as my in-residence intermediate developmental education. And so, because of that, I was fast-tracked to staff immediately. And so, timing just didn't work in terms of that intermediate level, getting back to the Academy and making a difference. And so, the next opportunity for me was as a lieutenant colonel, because at that time, our group commanders were group AOCs and they were lieutenant colonels, the opportunity didn't present itself and command of a flying squadron did, and so I absolutely jumped on that with both feet. The idea kind of was off in the back portions of my brain after graduating from command and it didn't come back into the forefront until I got back to the Pentagon because I view the Pentagon as most people do. You know, it's a necessary evil. There is tremendous virtuous work that takes place at the Pentagon. It really is. And I certainly don't mean to poo-poo it. Staff work is important. It's necessary. I wanted to get back into, no kidding, base, desperately. And it had been 27 years-ish to that point. I'd come back for coronavirus. I was working for Gen. Brown and for Secretary Kim. I came back for corona and that was one of the first times that I had been back. And I knew I had to get back here. And interestingly enough, I brought my check to Doolittle Hall. I wanted to be a life member, and I had my $800 check in my pocket. My wife gave me permission, and I was like, “I'm ready.” And I'll never forget this. I don't remember who I talked to, but she said, “Hey, if you wait just a few more months, it'll be free for everybody.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Membership for all graduates!
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I was like, “Sweet!” And then she happened to look at my ring, and she's like, “You got a chip on your ring. Why don't you hand that over to us? Your buying this ring came with a lifetime warranty.” And I was like, “This is unbelievable. This is like, divine intervention. I gotta get back to this place. I love it.” Yeah, I'm so happy to be back here.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 44:18
That is wonderful. So maybe before we go into arriving back here, kind of some of the surge of what that experience was like — what were some of the leadership nuggets, or the leaders that you worked either under with as peers, those you learned from that worked under you, that you kind of continued to evolve yourself as a leader. What were some of those that shaped you?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 44:39
So, I think I will start with my time at Tinker as a flight commander. I think one of the things that I learned then was the importance of being credible in an operational flying squadron. Yeah. Your worth is, especially in a flying squadron, especially as a CGO, your worth is in how well you fly, speaking for pilots in that career field. And so, when you fast forward that to now, what I tell junior officers is this, “As a CGO, your No. 1 objective, your sole objective, is to be a master of your craft. Nothing else really matters. Being a master at your craft is the recipe for success, and if you are not able to do that, it is going to be difficult for you.” So, I learned that at Tinker Air Force Base, I would say, fast forwarding a little bit further to some of my Staff assignments, I would imagine, one of the reasons why I have never been incredibly fond of Staff is because I have — there has never been a good fit for me in terms of the staff assignments that I've been in. I could argue maybe the last one was perhaps, but where I'm going is this: It taught me the need to be able to be adaptable to learn as you go, to be open to learning, and to be humble enough to ask a lot of questions. And I think that that's a tremendous leadership trait to have, to humble yourself to your team, to come in and say, “I don't know everything. I don't know all that you all are doing.” Your stories even, “Please help me to understand. Please teach me.” So Staff, for all of the pains at times, really has developed me to have a better appreciation for that. I would tell you in command, “Oh, my goodness, command is all I ever want to do,” which is both naive and probably a very elementary way of thinking about things I just love command, and command has taught me so much.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 47:16
What do you love about command?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 47:20
So, command is special because there isn't really, not really. There isn't period another position in the military where you are statutorily and regulatorily responsible for mission and people, nothing else. There is no other position in the Department of Defense military like command and to — especially at the unit level, the squadron level — to have such an immediate impact on mission like you are able to, as a squadron commander, and have such a positive impact, direct impact on airmen's lives. It is so incredibly fulfilling. And as you progress and command at higher levels, the direct impact on individuals lives lessens, but the direct impact on mission grows exponentially. I absolutely, not only that, but as you command at higher levels. While the impact, and I probably should have said it this way, the impact that you would have on so many individual airmen's lives’ lessons, the impact that you can have on an individual airman's life magnifies based on rank. It is significant also. And I always — one of the things that I tell people all the time is the… it's an oversimplification, but the only reason to have rank is to do good, is to do good things, to make things happen in a positive way that affect positively mission and benefit airmen's lives. That's it. That's all. And if it if rank becomes something different than that for you, you are in the wrong business, or we've given it to the wrong person, if I'm being honest with you.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 49:11
Thank you for sharing that. So how did you find out that you — how did it work to become the commandant of cadets? Is that something that you're selected for? How did you find out?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 49:23
So, I — well for your listeners, there's a dream sheet, if you will. We have a module that we go into and identify things, jobs, positions, perhaps even locations that we think that our skill-set matches up nicely for or that match our family circumstances, and in that module, I talked about the fact that I wanted to be able to give back to the Air Force Academy in this way. And talked about the fact that for 20 years or so, give or take, I have been trying to get back here to be able to have an impact. And I listed some of the things that I felt enabled me to have that type of impact. And then I got a call from the colonel's group or the general officer’s group. I can't remember which one, probably general officer’s group, that said, “Hey, the superintendent would like to interview you.” And I said, “OK, very good. I look forward to talking to a superintendent.” And what I will tell you is this: It is very difficult to prepare for an interview like that. Number one, you know, in the short amount of time that you're given to prepare for it. And then two, you just really don't know what you're going to be asked. And my knowledge of the Academy was very, very dated, you know, for 27 years ago when I graduated. But I said, “OK, let's go. Let's do it.” And so, I talked to him on the way home from the Pentagon in my car driving home, and we had a really nice conversation. And I remember parking in our driveway, and I remember staying in the driveway for about 15 more minutes as the conversation concluded, and I remember going into the house, and I remember talking to my wife, and I said, “You know, there are probably a number of people that interviewed, and they are, I'm positive, incredibly well suited for the position. There's always somebody better.” That's another great lesson that the Academy taught me, is there's always somebody better. But I said, “I think I feel like that went well. I don't know that I could have given any more to that interview.” Eventually, the superintendent made a decision. The superintendent had to vet that decision through higher levels as well. And eventually you come out on a list and it is announced that this is your next job.
 
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That’s how you found out? You saw the list?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
So admittedly, you know, birdies are talking to me ahead of time. But at the same time, you are just as a professional, more than anything else that is, that's meant to be private information for just and your family to kind of get your mind wrapped around those types of things. Because, as we've seen over the course of numerous years now, sometimes these lists come out later, and if you were to find out solely by that, that's not a lot of time to house hunt. That's not a lot of time to arrange schools. That's not a lot of time to arrange PCSing, you know, those types of things. So, and in this particular case, I needed to PCS from the Pentagon. I needed to perform a promotion ceremony. I needed to work a change of command ceremony here as well. And so, my wife and I joke, now this last move was the most difficult move we've ever, ever had, because I did all that in 30 days.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 53:27
Wow, it was a lot, but this was probably one that you were both excited for, not just her.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 53:31
Oh, we were. The amount of YouTube videos that we watched in our household about basic training and about the Wings of Blue, just to get our kids excited about this, which is why, I mean — there is no excuse for not knowing what you're walking into at the Air Force Academy, because there are thousands of videos out there. Yeah, and so we were very excited, and the kids were incredibly well educated on what they could expect, everything from the wildlife that's on the installation, to the climate and the altitude, to what cadet life was going to be like. And so, we were really excited. And I remember — and because the kids had never been here at all, my wife and I had taken a trip here early in our marriage, our kids had never seen it and the excitement over the five days of driving was just really, really building up. And so, when we finally were able to see the big white box on the horizon,
 
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Yes, the chapel-in-the-box.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
Yeah, when we were able to see that, and I was pointing to it as we were driving, they were just, they were just absolutely bubbling over with excitement. It was amazing.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 54:34
How did you feel when you saw it?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 54:38
Very, very excited. A little overwhelmed. Also, I would tell you, I was really — I was both naive and I was also incredibly humbled and respectful of what I was walking into. Naive in this regard: I felt like, my goodness, I don't know that I've ever been more prepared for a position that I'm walking into than being the commandant of cadets at the Air Force Academy. Because I graduated from here. I surely have to be well prepared and well suited. You know nothing about the inner workings of the Air Force Academy as a cadet. Nothing, nothing. And so, there was so much to learn about governance, not only that — I will tell you this: I had some troubles academically. I never had any run-ins from an honor perspective. I never had any discipline issues, either. And I don't say that to sound self-congratulatory. I say that to show my ignorance, because there were significant gaps in my knowledge and my understanding of how to manage the Cadet Wing, because I had never had any experience with honor, I'd never had any experience with discipline, and so I had to dive into those when I got here and learn that where somebody else might not have had to do that. Very respectful of what I was — the Academy is an incredibly special place. It is also, I don't say this, I don't mean this pejoratively, it is also a lightning rod for attention. There is always attention being drawn to the Air Force Academy and coming into the institution knowing that, it certainly had my attention up front, and I realized also that the opportunity to shape 4,000 cadets and to be able to be the one with a great, amazing team responsible for their military development, their character and leadership development, to ensure that on graduation they had achieved everything that they needed to do in terms of commissioning education to be responsible for their honor education, to be the one that is ultimately overseeing cadet life, it's an awesome, awesome responsibility, and I had a tremendous amount of respect for it when I came into the institution. So overwhelmed in that regard.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 57:22
I almost could feel through your eyes what you just expressed in coming back and seeing the Academy again and I think this is a wonderful time, because some of us have had the opportunity, whether it's been recent reunions, to hear you speak at reunion briefings, to catch a glimpse of you know, some of the changes or some of the things that you've brought back. Maybe this is an opportunity to share what's Academy life like now, but through the eyes of the commandant. What would you like to share with our listeners?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 57:49
So, I would tell you and your listeners that the life of a cadet has changed and is going to change even more. So, I would start much more strategic and talk about this geo-strategically. Being in an era of great power competition, we recognize that because of who our competitor is, because of the advances that they have made, et cetera, it is incredibly important. It's critical for us to rethink how we do just about anything. Rethink how we train, how we develop, how we organize, how we employ force, how we sustain that employment of force, everything. At the Air Force Academy we're in a developmental business and so it's important for us to step back and ask ourselves, with no indictment on the past and the cadets and the lieutenants, rather that we have created and that we have graduated, but right now today, are we doing everything that we can to ensure that the lieutenants that we graduate are ready to lead on Day 1 and win ultimately, should deterrence fail in great power competition? In that deep dive, we have to explore some of the training techniques that we employ here and whether they are applicable on the outside and the force the greater force, or whether they are potentially creating a hazard of negative transfer, we have to ask ourselves whether some of the traditions that we enjoy, or that we have enjoyed here at the United States Air Force Academy, are appropriate for this day and age, send the wrong message, or are potentially harmful in terms of our culture and our climate. Deep diving into all those things, one of the things that I've come to the realization about is this: What I want to be able to do is ensure that a cadet that has graduated — and I know that I won't be here for four years, but assuming that I was — meeting a cadet on I-Day and walking with them through four years, I want to make sure that they feel like they got their money's worth from a military development perspective or military training perspective. And here's what I mean by that: Anecdotally, as I talked to cadets, hundreds of cadets, and talked about their journey at the Air Force Academy, one of the things that I found is that the institution and the curriculum challenged them as a four degree. I think that is universal. But I would also say, and I would imagine, that many of your listeners who are grads would agree that once you were out of your four-degree year, the institution allowed for it to be, if this was your desire, very easy for you to coast militarily, or, dare I say, potentially hide militarily. And I didn't want that. I wanted essentially the same level of rigor that is placed on you academically and the same level of rigor that is placed on you physically and athletically to be placed on you militarily. Said another way, the same sweaty palms that you get in anticipation of your GR are the same sweaty palms that you get in anticipation of your PFT. I want you to have an anticipation of your inspection, or an anticipation of your formation, or an anticipation of your knowledge test, et cetera, throughout your four years. And so, we have evolved our thinking and more importantly, our focus to developing across all four years with the same level of diligence and the same level of rigor that we placed in our fourth-class development. And so the moniker, or the catch phrase, the bumper sticker that we use is that we have transition from a focus on the fourth-class system, to a four-class system, where you can expect, as a rising three degree, or as a rising two degree, to be taught what we need you to do in terms of your military development, expectations and responsibilities, let loose to go practice those things, those supervisory skills, et cetera; assessed on those things, taught warfighting skills as well, that will prepare you for great power competition, et cetera, et cetera. And I can go into a lot more detail, but suffice it to say, this is a significant shift in how we've been operating, and it's a shift for the better, because this is what our nation needs. This is putting us in a better position to be ready on Day 1 to lead and to win on Day 1. So, I'm really excited about it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That is exciting.
Brig. Gen. Marks
We're also bringing some rigor back into expectations about what it means to be a member of the Cadet Wing. So, in other words, we are increasing the number of formations. We are increasing the number of inspections. We are putting our money where our mouth is with respect to the fact that we say and rightly so, that we value character. We are now adding that too as a function of how we assess from a military performance average perspective, how we assess character, because it's so important, it's so critical. There are a lot of changes that are happening for the better, and these changes are going to affect not only the readiness of our cadets, but it's going to affect the culture of our Wing as well in a positive way. It's just going to take some time.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:00
That’s outstanding. Do you see that trickling up as well into some of the officers that are involved in this, with you, and shaping the cadets — so the AOCs, also your AMTs, and how they're doing that? Is that part of this as well?
 
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:04:13
It is, and I'll be honest with you, I don't want to be short-sighted or to minimize the impact that the entire institution is going to have. Believe it or not, the touch points that our faculty have, our coaches and staff have, they are abundant, and we would be doing ourselves and our cadets a disservice if all of us in lockstep were — not attacking the problem, but weren't in this together in terms of this development and this approach that we're taking. And so we are. We absolutely are. The dean and I are classmates. We have a tremendous and positive relationship, same with the athletic director and the executive director of Athletics as well. And together we have coffee on a regular basis, and we share ideas and talk about our approaches so that we can together positively impact our cadets. So yes, it is an all-of-USAFA approach and an all-in approach.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:05:22
Absolutely love that. Well, I have two questions. I want to give them to you so you have a chance to think about. The first one being, you know, as a commandant, what keeps you up at night? I think that's something on the minds of our listeners. But then also, would you share maybe, what's something that you're so proud of that's happened since you've been here kind of under your leadership, and maybe something that you're not so proud of? And you can answer those however you'd like.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:05:48
What keeps me up at night is the resilience of cadets. And let me explain that just a little bit. In no way is that an indictment of a generational thing; this generation of cadets is less. Not at all. It's me talking about human behavior and saying that our program is difficult, it's challenging, and individuals respond in different ways to that, and what keeps me up is an individual feeling like there is no way out. That bothers me a lot. It really, realy, really concerns me a tremendous amount. And so I spend a lot of time talking to our command teams about this and about the need for us to administratively ensure that we are being as efficient as possible when we adjudicate certain matters, because what we don't want to do is leave someone dangling in terms of decision making for months and months on end, because that exacerbates that problem and my concern. In terms of what I am most proud of — so, the jury is still out, but here's what I'll say: I'm very proud of a lot of things. I'm proud of the team we've assembled. I'm proud of the work that is being done at the Staff level. I'm proud of the work that our commanders and our AMTs are doing. Our commanders, our AOCs. I am also very proud of the partnership that we have across the installation. That partnership has enabled us to make a significant change to what is called the schedule of calls, the construct that defines how cadets, day to day, spend their time, essentially. We have made a significant change to it that enables us to provide a more professionalized delivery of commissioning education. It has allowed for us to provide some white space in cadets lives, significant white space. It has allowed for us to build in time for unit fitness. Unit fitness being the operative phrase there, because the unit is so important and developing that cohesion is so important. It has built in time to allow for us to more evenly create a common experience for all cadets. And what I mean by that is this: Prior to this change, which will be instituted in the upcoming academic year, our military training period happened in the afternoon, and oftentimes, because of conflicting schedules, it was very difficult for us to have all of our cadets in a unit at that training event at the same time — club activities, intercollegiate activities, et cetera. Moving that training period into the morning, first thing in the morning, 0700 in the morning, has mitigated a lot of that. And so now you're going to have 90, 95 percent of the squadron there doing readiness and warfighting training, and it's going to be wonderful. It's going to be fabulous. I'm extremely proud as a member of the institution in this change that we together have made.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:09:32
That sounds like something that would have helped us as cadets maybe do better while we were there. I think that's wonderful. So, before we close and get your final thoughts — I think it's really important that we have an opportunity to hear, if there's something I didn't ask that you wanted to share, or that you'd like to leave the listeners with — I'd like to just share a brief message here for our listeners.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Now without further ado, I want to get back to Gen. Marks because I think this is probably the part that really kind of summarizes our time together and really brings people to the message that you'd like to leave them with.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:10:20
I think what I would leave your listeners with is this, and I don't know demographically if more of them are alum or not. What I would say is we certainly love to hear from you and love to receive your input. But what I would love also is for you to believe that we are moving in a direction that we truly believe is best, not only because of the geo-strategic imperative, but because it is best in the development of our cadets to do the job that we need them to do as leaders upon graduation. And my hope is that to some extent, you allow for some grace and some benefit of the doubt as we work through and make some changes. But the other thing I would ask you to just keep in mind is this: The leaders at the Air Force Academy, from top to bottom, love, deeply, deeply love the institution, and are incredibly passionate about the development of these young men and women into officers in the Air Force and in the Space Force. And while, you know, we certainly may have differences in terms of approach, trust me when I tell you, there is no difference at all in the terms of the overall goal. The overall goal is to develop leaders of character that are ready to lead on Day 1 as lieutenants in the Air Force and Space Force and win great power competition, period. And I think we're moving in the right direction.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:11:57
That is awesome, sir. I will share to your point. You said you're not sure who our demographics of listeners are. We do also have families and those young people that are aspiring to come to the Academy. So, I might ask one other question. If you could go back and talk to young Gavin, what message, now knowing what you know, what might you share with him if he was still looking at the Air Force Academy today?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:12:17
I would tell young Gavin this: Continue to dream big. Don't let anyone dissuade you from goals that you have. And as it relates specifically to the Air Force Academy, it is absolutely worth it. It is absolutely worth it — until I met my wife — the best decision I have ever made in my life. Now that I have met my wife, one of two best decisions I've ever made in my life, and it has never changed. It is absolutely worth it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:12:56
Thank you so much for that. Thank you for your time today. Absolutely pleasure.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:13:00
I've had a lot of fun. Thank you.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:13:02
Thank you very much.
 
 
KEYWORDS
Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks, Air Force Academy, commandant, pilot, leadership, perseverance, support network, standards, honor, discipline, Air Force Academy, military career, leadership, command, adaptability, humility, cadets, great power competition, character development
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 
 
 
 

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