2026

In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Joel “Thor” Neeb ’99 explains this simple framework. “Yes” builds experience. “No” protects focus and time.
SUMMARYIn this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Joel Neeb ’99 explains this simple framework. Yes builds experience. No protects focus and time. Leadership is knowing when to shift.
 
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JOEL'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
1. Time is your most finite — and most misused — resource. Facing mortality created instant clarity: Stop letting others waste your time. You must actively protect time to focus on what matters most.
2. Regret comes from inaction — not failure. Neeb didn’t regret failures — he regretted not trying things that were uncomfortable. Leadership growth = bias toward action in uncertainty.
3. Imposter syndrome + growth mindset = a leadership superpower — “I don’t belong here… yet” paired with effort fuels growth. Elite teams are full of people quietly thinking the same thing — and pushing forward anyway.
4. Reinvention is not optional — it’s continuous. You don’t “transition” to a new role — you start over from scratch. The best leaders willingly become beginners again.
5. Comfort is the enemy of growth. When things become easy, growth stops. Leaders must intentionally seek discomfort, not avoid it.
6. Elite teams + inspiring mission = peak human performance The most meaningful work comes from: Being on a team where you feel you must earn your place and pursuing a mission bigger than yourself. This combination drives purpose and performance.
7. Say yes early in life, say no later in life. Under 35: Say yes to everything → build capability through exposure. Over 35: Say no to almost everything that doesn’t align with your goals → protect focus. Leadership maturity = ruthless prioritization.
8. The future belongs to those who disrupt themselves first. AI (and any disruption) rewards those who move early. “Stay slightly ahead of the rate of change” = competitive advantage.
9. AI should be a thought partner in everything; not a replacement but an accelerator. Leaders who integrate AI into daily workflows will move exponentially faster.
10. Think in five-year transformations, not three-month wins. People overestimate short-term output and underestimate long-term transformation. Leadership requires a bold long-term vision and daily actions from that vision.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 — Introduction: From Fighter Pilot to CEO-Level Leadership
00:00:49 — Stage 4 Cancer Diagnosis: The Moment That Changed Everything
00:03:48 — Clarity on Time, Regret, and What Truly Matters
00:07:02 — Reinventing Yourself: Leaving the Military & Starting Over
00:10:04 — Growth Mindset, Imposter Syndrome & Elite Teams
00:13:38 — Learning the Language of Business
00:17:14 — AI Is Disrupting Everything: What Leaders Must Know
00:22:46 — Using AI as a Thought Partner to Move Faster
00:24:58 — Say Yes Early, Say No Later: Mastering Your Time
00:35:06 — Big Goals, Long-Term Thinking & Final Leadership Lessons
00:37:22 — Joel’s Big Audacious Goal: Leading Through AI Disruption
00:42:47 — Using AI to Learn Faster (Even While Working Out)
00:48:14 — Closing Thoughts and Key Takeaways
 
ABOUT JOEL
BIO
Joel "Thor" Neeb ’99 is a recognized business leader in the software-as-a-service (SAAS) industry. He most recently served as vice president of execution and transformation at VMware, where he led a cultural and operating model transformation for the 40,000-person company as well as helped launch VMware’s AI roadmap and strategy. Prior to VMware, he served as chief executive officer at Afterburner Inc., where he led more than 100 elite professionals, including former fighter pilots, Navy SEALs, and Army Rangers, in helping global organizations achieve breakthrough performance.
Neeb is a former United States Air Force F-15 mission commander. He was the tactical leader of 300 of the most senior combat pilots in the U.S. Air Force and oversaw the execution of a $150-million-per-year flight program.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS:
Guest, Joel "Thor" Neeb ’99 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:11Joel, my friend, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.
 
Joel Neeb 0:13
Thank you very much. So glad to chat with you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:15
Oh gosh. Well, we are excited for this. It's going to be just a filled conversation of incredible insights, and you have so much to share. And I think what's really special about this is how we're going to touch into AI, because it is relevant, and it's everywhere now, but I actually want to dial it back first to a very specific moment in time, and it's probably an area that has really transformed your life, right? So you went through stage 4 cancer. I mean, not many people can say that they have gone through that and survived it, and I think it also really impacted others in your family. Can you just share a little bit about your story?Joel Neeb 0:49Yeah, so back in 2010 I was flying, on top of the world. I was going through the interview process for the Air Force Thunderbirds, and I found out, out of nowhere, that I had a stage 4 cancer diagnosis. So within just a couple of weeks, I went from feeling like I was at the peak of good health to now being told that I had about 18 months to live and a 15% chance to live five years. And those would be a pretty gruesome five years if I did make it that far. And so that was the new reality that I had to contend with.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:19I can't even imagine that. I mean, just… Was there some kind of indication, like, you went in and you were checked up and they found this? I mean, it just wow, just boom.Joel Neeb 1:30You know, it's funny. I actually have to credit the flying role with most likely diagnosing and solving this for me early. Because when I would fly and I'd have my G suit on my abdomen, it would inflate against me when I pulled Gs, and it was a pain that I was experienced on the right side of my abdomen that right around my appendix. On a scale of one to 10, it was like a two. So nothing big, but big enough that when I went and saw the flight surgeon for my annual physical, I mentioned it, and I said, I'm sure it's nothing, but they did the right thing, and did some quick tests and ultrasound on that area and some MRI work, and they were able to very quickly determine that a big tumor grown in that spot.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:09Wow. Well, I guess right there, just a lesson off the bat is listen to your body. You know your body, and if something doesn't feel right, seem right, you know, say something and get it checked out.
 
Joel Neeb 2:18
That's exactly right.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:19
Oh, my goodness. OK, so you got that diagnosis. You're sitting there with that information. How do you process that? What is the conversation with your wife, you know, what's the next step when you're given some kind of timeline like that?Joel Neeb 2:34Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I would have thought having gone through like fighter pilot training and even the Air Force Academy, and, you know, all the things that build resilience in life, that I would have felt more prepared for that moment. In other words, that I would have felt more prepared than the average individual. But I did not. I felt, I felt very much like I was in a catastrophe from which I couldn't see how to get through the day to day activities. I was a zombie around the house and it really relied on my wife and my family stepping in to help me. And so for a good couple months, it's was just kind of inconsolable and, you know, I always like to say it was, I would wake up and go through my day very, very tired because I didn't sleep the night before. And then I go to bed staring at the ceiling fan spinning, trying to figure out, you know, any options that I would have to extend my life for my kids to remember me a little bit. I had a 1- and a 3-year-old and so I went through life for a couple of months just a zombie and doing very poorly.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:38So what changed in that couple of months that, I guess, changed the trajectory of how you looked at things, or how you approached her, or what happened?Joel Neeb 3:48Yeah, you know, there's a great quote that I repeat a lot, which I think makes a lot of sense, which is “the dying have the most to teach us about life.” And what it really means is that when you're faced with these types of struggles, that all of a sudden, whether you're 80 or 33 like I was, you get a certain amount of clarity right in that moment and it's good for eliminating the rest of the noise in your life and identifying what's most important and what should have been most important all along. And that comes through and is in the forefront is it was fascinating to me that the moment I got the diagnosis, immediately I was mad at myself for spending any extra time at work, like it was like a light switch in my head went off and said, like, “You shouldn't have stayed that extra hour at work just to watch the clock turn. You were done with your job there.” I had a boss at the time that I was a huge fan of and he was a clock watcher, and wanted just to be in there to fill up time. And my mind immediately went to “now my finite resource is time, and I've been wasting it.” And I remember vowing that I'll never waste my time again, and I've been very disciplined against letting anybody steal time from me from that point forward; that was one of the key things I took away. And then looking back in my life, there were things I regretted, things that I celebrated and that I was proud of, and also considered what I would do differently if I was given a second chance. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:05So, you know, you wrote a book called Survivor's Obligation. I'm curious about this journey, though, because obviously you beat it 15 years later, you're here. So, you know, you beat the odds of the 18 months. What was that like when you still had to provide for your family? You know, you were still working like, what was that journey like?Joel Neeb 5:25Yeah, first of all, I have to credit the Air Force with showing up in a huge way. At that time, I was watching other people in the civilian sector who were undergoing cancer struggles, and they had a much more difficult time than I did. The Air Force had stepped in and was making meals around the clock for my family. I didn't have to show up to work. I you know, they afforded me every opportunity to get better and I really credit the Air Force family with getting me through that period of time, in ways I just certainly would not have been able to get through on my own, and in terms of, like how I looked at my life as I was thinking about the things I was proud of and the things I regretted. The things that I was proud of I was a little surprised by, and the things I regretted I was surprised by. I didn't regret my failures, of which there were many. I didn't regret them, because what I actually regretted were those times that I didn't try, where there's times where I didn't make the effort into doing something new that was a little bit scary, that would have put me outside of my comfort zone, and maybe would have challenged my ego a little bit. And now the end of my life was here, and I'd never have a chance to do anything else. You know, my story was complete. And I said, you know, really angry at that. Had I gotten a second chance, I would do things very differently. I love being a fighter pilot, but I would have preferred it to have been a chapter in my life, not the entire book. I would have tried to go to the business world and done all these things, and when I did get that second chance, and basically, God called my bluff and said, “All right, let's see if you actually follow through with this.” Then, of course, I had to hold myself accountable to living differently in that next chapter.
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:02So that's what you're doing now. You're living in this next chapter. And so, I mean, I think there's a transition out of the military. Obviously, you retired as a lieutenant colonel. And so talk us a little bit about in this moment of what you're going to do if given a second chance. Let's talk about what some of those things that you took a chance on, maybe in the business world first.Joel Neeb 7:24Sure. So our mutual friend, Kovacic, he says, “I'm in the middle of my Texas Longhorn MBA right now. It's amazing. It's just down the street from you.” He knew — he was following my cancer struggle closely. And he said, “Look, you're two years into this journey. Who knows what the future holds?” But I talked to him about wanting to be in the business sector and trying something new. And he said, “If you're serious about that, you should join the MBA program.” And so that's what I did. I went and joined the MBA program and had a blast being the dumbest guy in the room, by far, in business school. At the same time, it almost reminded me of being a fighter pilot again, or at least the early days of being a fighter pilot, because it was a little bit of a combination of terror and exhilaration, which is really what I loved about being a fighter pilot. That first time you go upside down by yourself and in pilot training and you prove to yourself you can do it, you're a little bit terrified, but fully exhilarated, and knowing that this is exactly what you should be doing. At the same time, I had that same sentiment as I'm sitting in business school classes, as I'm trying to keep up with the conversation there, and you say, “Well, you know that's so different from flying a plane, how are you getting the same joy out of it?” And it's really because where I landed with, you know, what did I value most in life. It came down to the times when I was on an elite team with an inspiring mission, an elite team, meaning I felt like I didn't deserve that spot there. And the little secret was, everybody on the elite team didn't feel like they deserve that spot there. But boy, are they going to try to earn it. And then that inspiring mission that we're pursuing, whether it was our time at the Air Force Academy, I always felt like I didn't deserve to be there. I felt like that was an incredibly elite team with an inspiring mission. Felt the same way about being a fighter pilot. Had a healthy dose of imposter syndrome going through all of this, but I've learned to believe that that's a bit of a superpower, in a sense, because if you have imposter syndrome coupled with a growth mindset, which means I don't belong here today, but I can sure earn the right if I try hard. I think that helps us to really realize the full potential of our lives.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:26Really well said. And I think that actually kind of helps us see how you're able to make that transition. I want to go back to the fact, — first off, Kope is amazing. I love that he, you know — it talks about the Long Blue Line and our networks from the Air Force Academy. They really are for life. And I think, you know, you just, kind of just showed that you applied and you participated in this MBA program when you're in your mid-30s. Then can you talk about that a little bit? I think there's an interest in, “Oh, if I didn't do this in my 20s, it's too late.” Can you talk about that transition in, you know, your mid-30s, and do you think that was the right time? Can people do it later in their life, etc?
Joel Neeb 10:04So I would say you certainly can do it at any point in life. You can recreate yourself at any point. A lot of — gonna go totally off topic, but a lot of longevity science is saying that the first person to live to be 150 is alive today, meaning we're all going to see a lot more healthy years hopefully in our lives than ever before. So that should mean that all of us should pursue multiple chapters, and there's certainly not a point in life where we're done reinventing ourselves. But the key is the word “reinventing.” And I was at a point in my career where, at 33 years old, I was very, very comfortable flying. I was very, very comfortable doing air shows and flybys and leading missions and signing autographs. And so my identity was a lot of ego and not a lot of growth, meaning it felt good to be told how great I was at doing a certain skill set, but it wasn't that hard to do anymore. It becomes rote, and I wasn't growing at this point. In order to go into the business world, I had to completely reinvent myself. And I like to tell people that are transitioning out of the military, as difficult as it was to do the first thing, whether that's be a fighter pilot or an intel officer, or how you had to reinvent yourself at 23 years old — that's just as challenging as it's going to be. You have to sign up again for the B course, as we call it, as fighter pilots. The thing that introduces you to being a fighter pilot and realize that you're devoting that much effort to reinvent yourself. And people would push back and say, “Yeah, but you've already led in these environments. You have all of these things that should carry over. Wouldn't it be easier for you just to make a transition and less of that initiation energy that's required to start this new thing?” The answer is no, you literally have to start it over, as if you're 25 years old. You got to eat a lot of humble pie and realize you're not special in this environment. But the good news is, you can become special very quickly if you're willing to reinvent yourself now — you bring perspective that nobody else can carry. Nobody else knows how to navigate high stakes, life-or-death environments like we've learned in the military. Nobody shows up with the processes that we've learned through checklists and through cultural training, all the things that maybe we didn't even aware that we're seeing. As soon as you see the opposite in the business world and you realize, well, we don't have that great of a culture here. We had a great one in the military. That's a huge resource that you can bring into that environment, but only after you've completely reinvented yourself and translated your skill set into something that's meaningful for that business setting.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:28So Joel, that's fascinating, because what you're saying is you're almost stripping yourself of all these experiences to really open up your aperture for what's new. And I'm curious if this was a way you came into that? Sid you go in with your eyes wide open with that plan, or did you learn this about yourself?Joel Neeb 12:47I came into it arrogantly. I went into these conversations thinking, “Wait till they see how much I have to offer. I've been in very complex scenarios. I've led my way out of them. I have all these awards for being a good leader and a good instructor, and so just wait until they see what I've got to offer.” And that's why business school helped me out a lot, because in a sandbox setting that really didn't have consequences, I got to participate in conversations and learn very quickly I didn't know what they were talking about and that they were — they had an understanding around business already that I didn't have. I didn't understand the language, and I needed to really reeducate myself to become ready in this moment. And so there were moments in that period where I would have done very differently in approaching that next transition, had I known how far I had to go to really having something to offer the business sector.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:38Was there a moment during that time when you were getting your MBA that, in a way that cancer startled you as a life-or-death situation, and you changed your you know — “If I'm given a second chance.” Was there a moment in the business, you know, getting your MBA where you like, really, like, linked into like, this is what I'm going to be doing. It was so clear to you the next move in this, in this journey.Joel Neeb 14:04Yeah, I say that. I mean, there's one that stands out that really showed how little I understood the business world. So they're talking about pipeline in this conversation at my MBA school, and they said, “You know, we need to improve pipeline. We're working on getting better pipeline for our needs.” And I'm listening to this thinking, “What are they talking about? Is this like an oil pipeline? Is this pipe plumbing? What do they mean?” And for those in the business sector, of course, you understand. They're talking about a sales pipeline. A sales pipeline is a sales funnel that shows that the leads that turns into the sales and the conversion rate and all the things that that, of course, I know intimately well. Now, at that point, it showed me that there's an entire language I just haven't been exposed to, because I'd been talking about missiles and G forces and airplanes for so long that it didn't matter how much experience I was bringing to the table. There was a language I didn't understand.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:50I think that is really, really thoughtful in how you showed that, because then it helped you probably in navigating when you're leading, you know, other teams that have different experiences coming to the table. So when you learn that language, and I want to talk a little bit about, you know, CEO of Afterburner, let's just talk about your role in the civilian sector, your multiple roles, I'd love for you to share a couple of stories where you've grown as a leader and where you've continued to learn things about yourself in that space.Joel Neeb 15:22Yeah, so at Afterburner, what we end up doing at Afterburner, more often than not, was leading in keynotes, doing workshops for training, and what we would show them is how you can leverage the things that we learned in the military on the elite teams that we participated in, whether that's Green Beret, fighter pilot, Navy SEAL — we hired all those backgrounds, and, of course, look for teams that had a business degree on top of that. What we ended up doing was getting on stage in front of these folks and sometimes talking to 10,000 people. So I've done presentations in front of 10,000 people in my past. And what I was surprised by — thinking about the learning opportunities and where the growth came from — is that even after having done 3,000 briefings, you know, in a fighter pilot setting, and getting in front of the red flag team in Nellis and doing a presentation there, I would be behind the scenes at some of these huge presentations, and I would get incredible stage fright, I guess is the only way to say it. Butterflies. I would feel like I was going to pass out. And the reason I share this is because I was frustrated that it didn't translate better to this new thing that I was looking to do with public speaking. Now I'm talking for an hour, and I had to be engaging and comical at times, and, you know, bringing the audience into it. I say that because, once again, I was finding that that combination of terror and exhilaration and proving to myself that I could do it, and I had a new place that I needed to grow into for that now, I've done this enough times where my heart rate doesn't go up a beat when I do this at this point, but that's after doing thousands of presentations and I think the key takeaway for me was our growth is never over with, and it's growth that really feels good, and so leaning into those areas of discomfort has been something that's been really important to me my entire life, particularly after cancer.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:06So what is growing you now? What is new for you that you are pursuing in your personal growth and development?
Joel Neeb 17:14Yeah, so it was new for me now is what's new for society, this next era with AI. AI is going to disrupt every one of our lives. And just as aggressively as AI disrupted my life with cancer, or, excuse me, as cancer disrupted my life, or even becoming a fighter pilot or joining business school disrupted my life, we see the same thing take place on a personal and professional level because of just how powerful this new technology is. And if you're sitting there wondering, “It hallucinates still, and I don't really buy it, and we'll see where this ends up,” I'm here to tell you, as somebody who's at the bleeding edge of AI that's going to transform every single thing we do in very good ways, but also disrupt the way you think you add value today, and the way you think that you know we should participate on teams right now. And so that's it's going to disrupt everything. And so I'm looking to constantly reinvent myself in the context of this next era. And I'm also looking to lead our 2,400-person company at 8x8 on that same journey, so that we can disrupt ourselves before we're disrupted.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:14So what does that look like right now? Share something maybe that is on the leading edge of that, you know, that forefront of being disruptive before you're disrupted in your organization.
Joel Neeb 18:27Yeah, so for us, it's making this new technology as accessible as possible so that we can break down the barriers for using it and realizing that, much like in the ’90s, we went from only a small technical portion of the company that was using computers, then expanded to, of course, everyone in the company is using a computer on every desk. But that wasn't always like that in the late ’80s and early ’90s; that was just reserved for a very technical portion of the group. Now that expanded. Of course, everyone's on the net. You wouldn't dream of trying to get a job without being internet savvy and having computer skills. We're going to see the same thing take place with AI and so, and I don't just mean using AI. I mean using AI to code, using AI to build things, and it's not just going to be reserved for that technical component of the company anymore. And so what that looks like for us: We conduct a weekly session where we talk about the use cases from the previous week on a personal and a professional level. Why is that important? Because now we're breaking down that barrier. So last week, I'll give you an example. We had somebody whose father passed a couple months ago, and this person had he lives in the UK. He's from Africa. His father had never met his son, so this person's grandson, his father's grandson, he'd never met. And by using AI at his funeral, he was able to take their images and create a moment where they came together and hugged and picked up the grandson and played this really touching video for the rest of the people there to share in that moment that never really happened, of course, but was able to celebrate this person's life and that connection through the grandson. And it was just a really I mean, they were people that were getting emotional, talking about it, listening to the story. And then we have somebody else say, I had my basement flood, and I took pictures of it, and I used AI to imagine how we would have to renovate it and build it back better. And somebody else says I successfully used AI to combat the tax increase on my house, because I came up with good comparables around the area and a good way to beat it. By the way, it's a really good one to use, if you have…
 
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:32
A mental note right there.
 
 Joel Neeb 20:33
Exactly. So we're lowering the barriers on a personal level. So then when I tell you on a professional level, here are my expectations for how you'll bring AI to the table to accelerate the things you're already doing, the teams are ready to do that, and that's been a really important aspect of this journey.
Naviere Walkewicz 20:50Is it important for an organization to already have a culture that is open to — I think what you know is you're going to get a bunch of different perspectives. You're going to get a, you know, maybe thinking outside the box that you wouldn't have thought of. So would you say that the organization was ready for that? Or have you had to create that culture along the way?
Joel Neeb 21:11Yeah, I'd say, you know, change is hard. Nobody likes change. We like being through change. And so one of the things that growth provides an opportunity to change for the better, but it's always start to get that activation energy to really pursue change. And so what we had to teach the culture at 8x8 is to not be change weary, but to be change ready, and to understand that in this era, our ability to stay a couple months ahead of the rate of change will be a superpower the likes of which no one can compete with us. Meaning as difficult as it is to pursue this change and to continue reinventing yourself — and when I say revenge up, I mean if you're doing the same thing today in six months, then you're gonna be passed by — literally changing that fast. And we're seeing that inside of our company. And so the new constant will be changed. The new constant will be disruption. And the faster we get comfortable with that, and the faster we realize that if we disrupt ourselves a little bit faster than the competition, that's a superpower, but we're already enjoying it internally within 8x8, but it's because we've forced ourselves to get a little bit ahead.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:15that's really interesting. And I imagine, would you say that it takes, you know, when you are in this transformation mode, because this is what you're taking your organization through, you know, how are you coaching as a leader? How are you — maybe it's through the repetition of trying it in their personal life. But you know, what are you sharing from a leadership perspective that's helping them think that way constantly, right? I mean, it's different from, “OK, I'm going to do this today and…” But how are they constantly ingraining that in themselves? And how are you leading that?
 
Joel Neeb 22:46Yeah, a couple of ways. One, we're saying that AI should be a thought partner in everything that we do, maybe not a thought leader, meaning, I'm not going to hand off a decision or an activity to AI, per se, but literally in everything that we do. So I'll give you a quick example in your role. So you're doing podcasts, and these are amazing. And by the way, you're poised, and I'm not surprised after knowing you at the Academy, because you were very polished then. But this is incredible. You did a phenomenal job with this. But let's say that you want to get some feedback after this session. You can take this transcript, upload it to AI, and you would say, “Give me the key themes from this session that we discussed.” You could say, “Create emails that will be enticing and send them out to the entire team based on this transcript that we have for this conversation.” You could say, “Create new episodes and new questions for the next 10 guests that will continue to weave a red thread of common questions and common themes throughout all these.” Where I'm going with this is when you consider how to use AI as a thought partner in everything that you're doing, you can go 100 times faster on the key things that we want to accomplish.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:52I believe that wholeheartedly. And just a little side story, I'm coaching my son's fifth grade basketball team. Never coached basketball before, and he's going to be middle school next year, so it's the one and only year. But I used ChatGPT to build out my coaching plan, and we are — we only lost our first game and we've been undefeated since so I'm going to hand it off to my ChatGPT coaching partner.
 
Joel Neeb 24:13That's amazing. That's a great story. See, that would be one we'd love to hear at our session that we do every week around how accessible AI is. Because people hear that and they say,” I can do that too. I want to bring that to my kids game.” The more we use it every single day, the better prepared we're going to be for the big changes that are coming.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:27Excellent. So Joel, I want to dig into your personal life a little bit, because you have such a fascinating way of — I mean, you make everyone feel that the moment that they're spending with you is 100% theirs. But I know in the background — and your time is important, you talked about that — but I know in the background, you are doing so many things. You've got your family is a key pillar. You know, your health and fitness is a key pillar. You're traveling all the time. As a leader. You know, how are you navigating all of that and doing it so well?Joel Neeb 24:58Well, first of all, I appreciate the sentiment. I certainly don't feel like I'm always doing it well, but I'll tell you my philosophy and how I mentor people that are that are pursuing a path to their dreams, and whatever that dream might look like, is the following. I tell them, “If you're younger than 35 years old, you need to say yes to every opportunity that comes your way.” What do I mean by that? When the boss asks you if you're able to give a big sales presentation, even though the voice in the back of your head says you're not ready for this — “I don't think you you’re gonna do well,” the answer is yes. You prepare yourself, you go out there, you embarrass yourself, you do it better next time. And that's how you learn through that process. When they ask you if you're ready to go lead this mission, your answer is yes. You're gonna figure it out. You're gonna do everything behind the scenes to make sure that you're successful. And you're going to push yourself into that discomfort zone and ensure that you're leaning into all of those opportunities as aggressively as you can. Why? Because it's exposure to all of those areas of discomfort that really owns the discipline for us to perform in this positive way when you get to those areas now. When you're after 35 years old, the main advice that I give to people is that you're flipping the script. You are no longer going to say yes to everything you're asked. You're going to aggressively say no to everything you're asked unless it aligns to your key things that you want to pursue in life. So you're completely looking at it in a different direction. I've said yes to everything for the first half of my life. Now I'm saying no to everything in the second half. Why? Because it's the distractions that stop us from doing the big things in life. Once we pass about 35 years old, the better you are at saying no to things, the freer your time will be to say yes to the most important things. So while it looks like I'm juggling a lot of things, to your point, I'm aggressively saying no to everything else that doesn't align with a few things that I have really focused my time on.Naviere Walkewicz 26:52So let's pull that thread a little bit more, because saying no is uncomfortable, and it may feel to some that they are letting others down. How do you or how might you coach them through telling someone no?Joel Neeb 27:09Yeah, I would say that I don't have that problem. I probably did, and certainly prior to cancer, I would have. I am at the place now after I've learned how short all of our lives are, not just my life because I had a cancer battle. And the big surprise for me was not that I might die in 18 months, it was that I was going to die at all. Because for all of us, that notion of death is so far away and really something that we don't really come face to face with very often in life, that all of a sudden I had to accept the fact that I was going to die someday, and I better make good use of the time between now and then. So when people ask to have my time, I aggressively say no. I never feel bad about it. And then I also introduce gatekeepers to my time on top of that. So I don't even — most of the time you're working with my executive assistant, most of the time you're gonna be working with somebody on my team, and that's because I want to jealously guard my time at this stage so I can be as incredibly impactful on the few things that I want to do as possible. That desire dwarfs any emotional attachment I would have to say no to somebody else that long time. It doesn't even cross my mind to think twice about it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:25I think that's a great lesson right there. I mean, I think if you actually put time as the, you know, main, the thing you're protecting, right, everything else on to your point, it dwarfs behind that. And I think the way you did that, you actually made it very doable for people to say no, because now you've created gatekeepers, you put some stops in there. And I think that's a lesson that people can take away as they're looking to navigate their journey forward. So thank you for sharing that for sure. So, you know, you wrote two books, I'm sure there's probably more. Is that something you've always wanted to do, or has that been a realization of “I've experienced this, and there's a — I need to share this. Like, what was the impetus behind writing books on your experiences?Joel Neeb 29:09Yeah, great question. Very different reason I wrote both books. So the first book was born out of this feeling that as I was going through cancer, that clarity that I experienced: The dying-have-the-most-to-teach-us-about-life piece of it, I came back to the sense that, wow, I wish I knew this before I had cancer, I would have lived my life very differently, and I had made a deal with God that, you know, if I do make it through this, I want to share these insights and share what you know, my perspective was from being on this precipice with death and what I take away from it, because I did think it was valuable enough for my life to share with others in my immediate vicinity and then to write it in a book. And I just needed to get that out of me. The second one for the insight age is much more around what is the template that I wanted to pursue within companies to help take them from the Information Age where we have universal access to information, to the Insight Age, where we now have universal access to AI-driven insights, and how you prepare for that. I wanted people to have the template for it and understanding about how I approached it before I showed up so that we could all be on the same sheet of music when I led the transformation.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:15OK, that's really helpful. So as we think about AI in business, and, you know, having a template for that, can we talk a little bit? And we went to the Air Force Academy, and so I, gosh, I can't even imagine how I might have been a better student had we had AI back in the day. But how do you see AI disrupting? You know, our service academy cadets are, you know, anyone going through, you know, degree programs, you know, how do you use it where there's still original thought, but obviously it's, there's a thought partner that is helping you and maybe accelerate that. I mean, how is that working?Joel Neeb 30:49It's the same shift that you and I both experienced with universal access to information in the Information Age. And so in other words, there was a time where you had to memorize every phone number that you would call in your network, right? I mean, I sat down — we went to a high school reunion recently and we all sat down and we're trying to rattle off the phone numbers across the table. And we got most of them out there, still lingering in our head somewhere, these memorized phone numbers for everybody. I couldn't tell you, like, my kids phone numbers at this point, like, because I'd push a button and I just get it. And where I'm going with that is we're now in an era where memorization of rote facts and phone numbers and just facts that you can find in the internet is no longer required, and we're used to that, right? And so I wouldn't say that we think less. I would say we think a lot more. At this era there's a risk right now of saying, “I'm no longer going to be required to do critical thinking, because AI is going to do some of that for me.” And the answer is, it will. But much like I got a calculator for every GR that I got to go to — I did a math minor at the Academy…
 
 Col. Naviere Walkwicz 31:54
That’s why I didn't see you in any classes.  
 
Joel Neeb 31:59
I brought a calculator to every test, but it certainly didn't make it easier. If anything, it made it harder. I would have had an easier time like writing down calculations and just having to do the arithmetic. Because I had something that did the arithmetic for me, it elevated my thought process and made me more responsible for the critical thinking. You're going to see the same thing with AI. So as you think about it, how AI will disrupt a knowledge institution like the Air Force Academy. At first blush, we would think, well, it's just going to make it easier to cheat. It's going to make it easier to do the things that we're doing today. Yes, it does, just like if I only was doing arithmetic, a calculator makes it easier for me to do that, and I can turn my brain off. But as we all know, it's just going to elevate the threshold for what is required of us, right? So we're going to go in right, we're going to go into this next era with a thought partner on everything that we do, but you still have to guide that thought partner. You still have to point it in the right direction. You have to ask it the right questions. This era is going to be much less about having the right answers and much more about asking the right questions to find success.
 
Col. Naviere Walkwicz 32:59
Which is critical thinking at its finest, honestly. Fascinating. So, you know, Joel, I think about you and, you know, when I see the, like, the things that you're doing, American Ninja Warrior, your family is involved in this. How do you see, you know, how do you bring your family into the vision that you have it with the growth mindset? Do you see that that's how your family is? All the children are raised that way your wife is. I mean, is this the way that the Neeb household kind of operates? And has it always been this way, or has it really been since you kind of came to that realization that life is too precious for me to live otherwise?Joel Neeb 33:35Yeah, I mean, I try to live the philosophy that I want my family to live as well. And it's not the Joel show, meaning this is not just for them to support me and go cheer in the crowd at American Ninja Warrior. My wife has gone on and done physique competitions like you have as well. Col. Naviere Walkwicz 33:49She’s amazing. Your whole family's amazing.Joel Neeb 33:53And she's a regional board member for a group called YPO. So she's in charge of 3,000 CEOs and a network for that. And then she just did a presentation to Europe yesterday on AI herself, and she's going to be traveling to Europe next month to do the presentation in a live setting. And so where I'm going with this is, I feel like because of my cancer battle, because of what we've experienced as a family, and we've learned how precious our time was and how incredible it is to experience that combination of terror and exhilaration, all of us lean into those moments, and we don't do it perfectly, and we all get mad at traffic, and we all are lazy once in a while, and, you know, myself included, but more, we try to do a little bit extra step into that direction, because it has been such a fun way to live after having the scare that we had as a family.Col. Naviere Walkwicz 34:43That makes sense, and I can really see your family embracing that. You know, I want to ask you a question about yourself and what you're doing on a daily basis to be better, and it sounds like you're already thinking about it right? Reinvention on a constant basis. But if there was anything else you would say that you're doing on a daily basis to be better and better is, you know, in quotes, like you define what better is, what would that be?Joel Neeb 35:06Yeah, I think that there's a couple of things that I think we should all try to do if we're trying to be, quote, unquote “better.” As you said, there's a quote I like that that says that we vastly overestimate what we can do in three months and we underestimate what we can do in five years.Col. Naviere Walkwicz 35:27OK, wait, say that one more time. If you don't mind, say it one more time.Joel Neeb 35:30Yeah, really, we overestimate what we can do in three months. “I can't wait for February. I'm going to do X, Y and Z.” And then we disappoint ourselves because we didn't accomplish all those things. And yet we underestimate what we can do in five years. What do I mean by that? It means that if we were intentional about what we wanted to do in the long term, about what we wanted to grow into in years from now, five years from now, you can reinvent yourself to be anything. I think conceivably, any of us could say, “I could accomplish just about anything in five years, if I put my mind to it.” The problem is we think in the short term, and so a lot of us think of I need this happen fast. I need the, you know, in three months. I need this to take place. That's putting the car before the horse. We need to define what we want to be in the long term and then back into what that implies we need to do right now. That also speaks to the focus that I have and saying no to other things, because if I have this big, audacious goal for what I want to be in the long term, then I have to say no to a lot of things if I'm going to take those steps necessary to start marching down that path. And so what I say to folks is that build that long term first, build that vision of what you want to be in the future that's exciting to you, whether that's a fighter pilot or a CEO or you name it, shoot for the stars, whatever that is that you want to be, and then start backing into it and celebrate the fact that you're doing this. In other words, then people get caught up and, you know, I feel like I'm not making enough progress, and I'm mad at myself for not taking enough steps, I would challenge that and say, don't put the pressure on yourself that you have to do this. Reverse that conversation. Say, “I get to, I get to pursue this vision.” Doesn't mean it'll take place. Doesn't mean to occur. But if I have a vision in mind, and I'm taking steps towards it, even if I don't reach it, I'm still going to be in an incredible place that I wouldn't have been otherwise. And so that's, that's the approach that I would take.Col. Naviere Walkwicz 37:18All right, Joel, so what is your big audacious goal in five years that you're working towards?Joel Neeb 37:22Big audacious goal? Yeah, so I am super excited about the future of AI. I think that it has a lot of positive and negative implications for society in general. And so I'll give you a quick example. Right now, we've got 9.5% of our recent graduates that are unemployed, which is much higher than it's ever been from graduating college. That's unique, and what I attribute that to is that we're just starting to see the workforce disruption that's occurring because of AI. We're starting to see the workforce drawdown that's occurring because of it. At the same time, we're seeing companies that are able to do much, much more with AI. And so they're questioning, well, how do I operate as a company? How do I teach everybody to stay on board this training and be successful in this new environment and then societally, we're challenged with, well, how do I set up our young people for success? How do I tell my 19-year-old what to do to do to be successful. So when I think about the big, hairy, audacious goal that I want to go pursue in this next chapter in five years, I want to be on the forefront, helping the government, helping companies, helping everyone to continue disrupting themselves and leaving as few people behind as possible in this next era. Because that's the real threat. And the challenge is cats out of the bag. If we don't do this, China is going to do it like others are going to pass it by. Pass it by. The wrong answer would be to try to step it back in the bag and say we're not doing any I we're going to put regulations around, putting our heads in the sand. We would just get passed by, like, in a few years by our biggest competitors out there, which we know we don't want to have happen. And so the key is, how do we keep as many people up to speed with his transformation possible? So I talked to, you know, graduates like August Pfluger, who's in Congress, and we have, yeah, he's awesome. And so we talk about, what does that look like in the future he's shaping, you know, the future from a government perspective? I talked to former Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger, is a good friend of mine, and we go on vacations together and a conversation we have about from a corporate perspective: How do we address this as well? So that's my big goal. That's what I want to influence over the next couple of years.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:22Love that. So if you could rewind the clock and, you know, tell your young Joel, and this is really for anyone who is looking for preparing myself for that long term, right? So maybe it's not the five year, the big thing in five years, but it's — this is for what can I do today that is gonna — I'm gonna help myself — future me. What would you tell yourself, Joel?
Joel Neeb 39:43If I were to go back to Academy Joel, I would say, “Take this experience more seriously.” At the time, I kind of resented the experience that I was going through at the Academy, not understanding fully that they understood how to polish the coal to try to make it into a diamond. And I didn't always see the method to the madness behind the scenes and why they were doing things. And I would tell myself to take it more seriously, to lean into the leadership opportunities, lean into the experiences. I think it's a tendency as a cadet to lean away from those and to kind of look at those with resentment. I remember I did, and I wish I would have taken those more seriously. I wish I would have taken my 20s more seriously in terms of pursuing things that were uncomfortable, and not just getting comfortable towards the latter end of my 20s and early 30s, where I was flying upside down with ease every single day and really not doing anything that was challenging me too much. I certainly didn't have it all mastered and figured out. But my discomfort was all but gone in those moments. And so I would tell myself, “Keep leaning into those areas of discomfort, because it's in those areas that we find growth.” And growth is one of the top things that we can feel as a human being. Being a part of an elite team is growing together on an inspiring mission.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:56Well, I know that you are, you know, constantly in the forefront of AI, but what makes you or what causes you discomfort now that you're working through?
Joel Neeb 41:05What causes me discomfort now is compelling a 2,400-person organization to move as quickly as I think we need to. In other words: right now. The things I'm talking to you about, I'm communicating with them about on a daily basis, and we have remotely dispersed teams. I'm staring into cameras like we are right now. So I'm not sitting in the room with them and helping them to learn these things. My discomfort is around how as a leader, can I be more compelling about the burning platform that they're standing on right now, that as soon as it burns away, their role is going to be obliterated, and we're going to be disrupted by the market. And how do I really excite them around this destination that we're pursuing together, where we're going a little bit faster than the rate of change? I'm proud of the progress that we've made, but in terms of the discomfort that I'm feeling, it's almost impossible to go fast enough in this era, and so I am. The thing that keeps me up at night is, how do I make this more compelling for them? And then ultimately, I know that whatever themes I'm learning right now to make it compelling is what I'm going to have to bring to society in this next chapter, as well as we try to keep the entire American society moving ahead of the rate of change that we're experiencing.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:14Well, thank you for that. I would imagine you probably phoned your friend, ChatGPT, on some  ways to do that, but I think that what you really shared today has opened, I think, eyes of how we can partner with technology at our fingertips. I mean, you and I were just chatting before this, and I asked you this, because one of the things I remember you being really big on is finding time to read as a family. I remember you had like Saturday family time, we read. As much as you're traveling and as much as you're trying to move your organization at this rate of change with AI, where do you find time to read now?
Joel Neeb 42:47Yeah, so I use AI for that too. So when I'm in the gym, I upload a chapter at a time into ChatGPT for the books that I'm reading, and I ask it to read it to me in the voice thing that it can do. And so it's reading the book to me. But the really cool part is, it's not just audible. I'm not just hearing, you know, the recording of it. And by the way, you can even tell it talk two times faster or whatever you want to do for the right speed. And I'll interrupt it. The cool part is, I'll say, “Hey, wait a second. I didn't really understand that that part of the book. Break it down for me in simpler terms.” And it'll actually pause, explain it to me and put it in terms that my fighter pilot mind can understand, or I'll even say, “Yeah, tell me about that theme in the context of the company that I'm in, 8x8, and tell me how we can apply that right now, and look at our industry. And how can I take some of this to that team?” And so it takes a book that was generically written and makes it customized for my experience by leveraging AI to do that. So once again, it's a thought partner in literally everything that I do.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:42What's the last book that you read in which you were able to take some of those things to, or maybe that you'd recommend to some of our listeners to listen in via ChatGPT.Joel Neeb 43:51I just finished reading the Teddy Roosevelt biography, which is phenomenal. What an incredible American, and it was inspiring to read. And I was able to pause it in parts and challenge some parts of the books and say, “Did that really happen?” And,  “Tell me more about this incident in history.” And it explains some historical pieces that I wasn't aware of and the book didn't delve into as much as I would have liked it to. That's a little bit of a boring historian-nerd kind of answer, but that's what I took away from it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:17Well, thank you for sharing that. So Joel, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you would really like to make sure that we touch on? Because this has been a really exciting and fascinating conversation for me, but I want to make sure, because this has been your leadership journey, and there's so many facets to that that that we hit on the things that are important?Joel Neeb 44:33The thing that I've learned in my time is that the foundation that we receive in the military, whether that's the cultural foundation, how we are all aligned with similar values, with a common mission that's inspiring the adherence to what we call in the business world, standard operating procedures, what you would call in the military, a checklist, effectively. That foundation that we have is easily the most valuable resource that I carried into the business world and the teams that I've been on. And I think we underestimate just how powerful that experience is, that during our 20s, we're in this incredibly disciplined environment with a really strong culture, really strong sense of value, really strong sense of mission. Pay attention to that while you have that opportunity. While you're being exposed to it, pay attention to how it was built. Pay attention to how they that accelerated our success in those teams. Because I promise you, you'll want to someday carry those concepts to every team that you're on in the future. And so I think it's an opportunity for us to leverage the incredible team that we're on in the military, and talk about that in an exciting way with whatever team that we participate on down the road.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:50Thank you for sharing that. And if I could just pull on that thread a little bit more in that just in that transition, and taking those to those teams, I want to just jump to your very first transition from military to Afterburner? How did that come about for you? And I think that just our folks will be curious on that.Joel Neeb 46:10Yeah, so Afterburner is a company that's been around since 1996 and they basically took some of those things from the military that I just spoke to, brought it into a corporate setting and helped them to adopt the same levels of positive outcomes. And when I saw this company, I said, “Wow, they really tapped into something that I that I knew as well intuitively, that if we apply some of these same themes, we could really take over anything in the business world. And so I reached out to the CEO and kept bugging him and continue to stay on his radar until he agreed to bring me into the office in Atlanta. I was living in San Antonio, and I went out there on my own dime and did an interview with them, and it went well. And of course, the rest is history after that point. But I found the thing I wanted to do and pursue, and then a very aggressively got in front of the people that could make it happen and definitely was part of the journey for me that I needed in order to be successful.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:04Yes, I definitely wanted you to share that, because I knew, obviously, you had that experience. You took those things that you learned, and you wanted to hone in as you led other teams. But I think the critical piece was you pursued it, and you continue to pursue it, and you continue to pursue it until you got there, right? And so I think that's a critical part of moving forward and getting what we want. So I really am glad that you shared that, because it may seem that it's really easy just to make the transition, right? You can check all these boxes and so you're the shoe in, but it sounds like that wasn't the case, and you had to make a case for yourself.Joel Neeb 47:39One-hundred percent. I had to be my own biggest advocate, and not in an arrogant way, in a way that I could show I could add value for that team. And that was, that was a lesson that I've taken and tried to apply since then.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:51Well, I'll tell you what, it's been, gosh, 1999. How many years is that? 25 years for us? I mean, I feel like, you know, this has been a true honor to be able to sit with you. I mean, I've always watched your journey and just really been cheering you on, but I think what's incredible is how you're able to now really give back to our Long Blue Line. So Joel, thank you so much for this time today. It's been really wonderful having on Long Blue Leadership.Joel Neeb 48:14What a privilege, Naviere. And I would say, you know, you had just asked me back in 1999 if there's a dozen people from the Academy that I thought would be very successful, your name would have been one of them. I don't think there's another person at the Academy who would have said my name. So we came from very different starting points, but I'm super excited to see the success you created, and, more importantly, the impact that you have on our graduate community, because it is noticed by everyone that I talked to. So thank you for how you lean into that our community as well.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 48:43Thank you for saying that. And as we come to a close, I'd love to offer a few thoughts before we go. What stands out to me today from our conversation is how leadership is both timeless and adaptive. Joel's journey from commanding F-15 missions to leading global organizations and navigating AI reminds us that leadership fundamentals remain steadfast, just like you said, yet in the context in which we lead, it's always evolving, and the ability to adapt is what sets exceptional leaders apart. His story of personal resilience, overcoming stage four cancer diagnosis underscores that leadership is defined by how we respond to challenges and how we make lasting impact. From lessons in the cockpit to corporate transformation and personal discipline. Joel offers a blueprint for leading with confidence in uncertain times. Thank you for investing your time and listening in Long Blue Leadership. I encourage you to share this episode with others who are also in their personal journeys, especially because it's my classmate and he's phenomenal. Thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz; until next time.
 
KEYWORDS
Leadership, leadership development, modern leadership, leadership mindset, growth mindset, resilient leadership, adaptive leadership, transformational leadership, leadership under pressure, leading through adversity, leadership lessons, executive leadership, high performance teams, elite teams, leadership philosophy, leadership strategy, personal growth, professional development, continuous improvement, reinvention, career transition, imposter syndrome, mental toughness, discipline, time management, prioritization, decision making, strategic thinking, innovation leadership, change leadership, leading through change, disruption, self leadership, accountability, peak performance, overcoming fear, stepping outside comfort zone, leadership habits, future of leadership, AI leadership, leadership in the age of AI, digital transformation, organizational culture, team culture, mission driven leadership, purpose driven leadership, high impact leadership.
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 

From combat missions in the F-22 Raptor to more than five months aboard the International Space Station, Lt. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers ’11 has seen it all.
SUMMARY
In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Col. Ayers reflects on mentorship, teamwork and building the next generation of warriors and astronauts.
 
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TOP 10 TAKEAWAYS
1. Leadership is fluid: sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow.On Dragon and the ISS, command shifted between Anne McClain and Takuya Onishi. Everyone alternated between being commander and flight engineer, showing that strong teams normalize moving between leading and supporting roles.
2. Team care starts with self‑care.Vapor repeatedly links sleep, rest, hydration, and health to leadership performance. You can’t be present for others if you’re exhausted or burned out; taking care of yourself is a leadership duty, not a luxury.
3. People first, mission second (to enable mission success).Whether on deployment with 300 personnel or in space with 7, she focuses on taking care of the human—family issues, logistics, burnout, and emotions—trusting that performance and mission execution follow from that.
4. Trust is built long before the crisis.ISS emergency training with all seven crew, plus years of joint training in multiple countries, builds shared understanding and trust. When emergencies happen, the crew isn’t figuring each other out for the first time.
5. Quiet, thoughtful leadership can be incredibly powerful.Takuya Onishi’s style—observant, calm, speaks only when it matters, and brings thoughtful items for others—shows that you don’t need to be loud to command respect. When he spoke, everyone listened.
6. Leadership means being fully present, especially on others’ hard days.In both combat and space, you can’t “hide” when someone’s struggling. Being reachable, attentive, and emotionally available is a core leadership behavior, not a soft add‑on.
7. Normalize mistakes and share lessons learned.From F‑22 sorties to NASA operations, it’s expected that you openly admit errors and pass on lessons so others don’t repeat them. A culture where “experience is what you get right after you need it” only works if people share that experience.
8. Plan for “seasons” of intensity, not permanent balance.She frames life as seasons: some are sprints (deployments, intense training, big trips); others are for recovery. Wise leaders anticipate these cycles, push hard when needed, then deliberately create room to reset afterward.
9. Model the behavior you want your team to adopt.If the commander is always first in, last out, everyone else feels pressure to match that. By visibly protecting her own rest and home life, she gives permission for others to do the same and avoid burnout.
10. Lean on—and be—a support system.Her twin sister, long‑term friends, and professional peers form a lifelong support network she turns to when she fails, doubts herself, or hits something “insurmountable.” Great leaders both rely on and serve as those trusted people for others.
 
 
CHAPTERS
0:00:00 – Introduction & Vapor’s Journey (Academy, F‑22, NASA)
0:00:38 – Launch Scrub, Second Attempt & What a Rocket Launch Feels Like
0:03:33 – First Moments in Space, Floating & Seeing Earth (Overview Effect)
0:06:11 – Leadership & Teamwork in Space: Roles, Trust, and Small-Crew Dynamics
0:10:19 – Multinational Crews & Leadership Lessons from Other Cultures
0:14:47 – No‑Notice F‑22 Deployment & Leading a Squadron in Combat
0:18:14 – Managing Burnout: Scheduling, Human Factors & “Crew‑10 Can Do Hard Things”
0:19:46 – Self‑Care as Team Care: Seasons of Life, Rest, and Being Present
0:26:02 – Family, Being an Aunt, and Balancing a Demanding Career
0:28:14 – Life After Space: Mentoring New Astronauts & Evolving as a Leader
 
 
ABOUT NICHOLE
BIO
U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers is a trailblazing pilot, leader and astronaut whose journey began at the United States Air Force Academy, where she graduated in 2011 with a degree in mathematics. An accomplished F-22 Raptor pilot, Ayers is one of the few women ever to fly the world’s most advanced stealth fighter — and she’s one of even fewer to command them in formation for combat training missions.
Col. Ayers earned her wings through years of training and operational excellence, logging over 200 flight hours in combat and playing a critical role in advancing tactical aviation. Her exceptional performance led to her selection in 2021 by NASA as a member of Astronaut Group 23, an elite class of 10 chosen from among 12,000 applicants.
As a NASA astronaut candidate, Col. Ayers completed intensive training at Johnson Space Center, which included spacewalk preparation, robotics, survival training, systems operations and Russian language. Now qualified for spaceflight, she stands on the threshold of a new chapter that led her to the International Space Station.
Throughout her career, Col. Ayers has exemplified the Academy's core values of Integrity First, Service Before Self and Excellence in All We Do. Her journey from cadet to combat aviator to astronaut is a testament to resilience, determination and a passion for pushing boundaries.
 
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NASA Astronaut Nichole Ayers
 
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SPEAKERS
Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99
Guest: Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers ’11
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Vapor, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We are so thrilled you're here.
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:11Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:12Absolutely. So the cadets get to spend some time with you at NCLS. Here the Long Blue Line is going to get to hear from you. And you know, we can actually go through the list. You know, F-22 pilot, USAFA 2011 graduate, you've been in combat, you’re a NASA pilot. The list is probably shorter what you haven't done. But, frankly, I'm just excited that you're here on Earth with us, because the last time we spoke, you called me from outer space.Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:35Yeah, that was a lot of fun. That was a lot of chat with you then too.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:38So let's just jump right in. So if we can just kind of catapult you, and let's do it in the way that they that NASA does, into space, maybe starting with the countdown, and then the Gs you take, what is that experience like? And maybe, what are some things you were thinking about in those moments?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:53Oh, yeah. So, you know, we launched on March 14. First attempt was March 12, and we actually scrubbed the first launch. So we got all the way down to T minus 42 minutes right before we armed the launch escape system. So that's kind of a big milestone on the countdown. We were having issues with some hydraulics in the clamp that actually holds on to the rocket wall and then let's go. We weren't quite sure whether it was gonna let go, so they scrubbed the launch then, and it was a fascinating — you don't feel like you've got a ton of adrenaline going, but, you know, you feel kind of like you're in a sim. We do some really phenomenal training. And so when you're sitting on top of the rocket, it feels like you're in a simulator, except it's breathing and living, and the valves are moving, and you can hear the propellant being loaded and all of that. And so there's a very real portion to launch date. But then, coming down off of that adrenaline, we got a day off, thankfully. We could just kind of rest and relax and then go again. So everything went smoother the second try. Of course, you know, everybody's nerves are a little less, and everything was — it just felt calmer the whole way out. But, yeah, when that countdown hits zero, I like to say you're being slingshotted off the Earth. That's how it felt. You know, in that moment, you’re going. There's over a million pounds of thrust, and it's going.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:10I mean, that sounds like a lot. I can't really fathom in my mind what that feels like. Can you describe it?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 2:17You know, so I talked about in an F-22 and an afterburner takeoff, which is the most thrust that we have basically in any airplane on Earth. You know, you get set back in your seat really far. And, if you think of an airliner takeoff, you kind of get set back in your seat a little bit. Multiply that by, like, 10 or 20, and then that happened for nine minutes straight on a rocket. You're just being forcefully set back in your seat for nine minutes straight and just thrown off of the Earth, and in nine minutes, you're in orbit.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:49So when you had your practice, did you experience that level for that long as well?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 2:54For the simulators? So they can't that. We can't necessarily simulate the Gs in the sim. So that's like the one part that, you know, we go through the whole launch, but you're sitting at one G the whole time, and throughout the launch, you know, the Gs build, then we back off the thrust and the Gs build again, and then you have an engine cut off. And I like to explain, like, if you could visualize, like an old cartoon, and everybody's in the car driving, and Dad slams on the brakes, and everybody hits the windshield. And then he slams on the gas again, and everybody goes back to their seats. Like, that's what it felt like when the engine cut off and, you know, main engine cuts off, and then within a few seconds, the second engine lights, and you're set back in your seat again. So I like to give that visual.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:33That's really helpful, actually. Wow. OK, so you're there, you're in space. And I guess my first question would be, what's something that, in that moment, you're either thinking or you're just, are you still just orienting yourself? What is that like?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 3:45Oh, man, you know, we're still in the seats for the first few moments in space, and we have to open the nose cone. There's some other things that are happening on the spacecraft, and getting ready for a burn, for a phasing burn, to get up to and catch up with the International Space Station. But, you know, then eventually you get to unbuckle and get out of your seat and floating for the first time. I got out of my seat and I'm floating there. It felt like, you know, Captain Marvel when she's, like, hanging out. Yeah, that's, that's how I felt. And, you know, I like to give the visual, because it's like, it's just nothing you've ever experienced in your life, you know. And then you look out the window and the view is something, it's indescribable. You know, I don't think we have the right words in the English language to describe what it feels like to look back at Earth from space.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35Was there a moment when you're looking out at Earth — did you kind of play back just different things in your life? Did you think about, you know, significance of things, or, like, scope of things, or even just the vantage point? Did it kind of just change things or were you just in awe at the moment?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 4:49No, I think, you know, we talked about the overview effect, when astronauts specifically look back at Earth, and it hits everybody kind of differently. And for me, I think the biggest thing you know, when you look at a map of the states or a map of the world, you know, every country is a different color, or every state's a different color, and there are lines that describe the borders, right? And those don't exist in in space. Those don't exist like when you can't see different colored states, right? But you can see the Grand Canyon, and you can see the mountains, and you can see the Amazon, and you can see the desert in Africa. And you get to, you know, you get to learn the world geography by colors and terrain. And it's just a really good reminder that, you know, we're all humans, and we're all on this little fragile marble, just trying to take care of each other and trying to take care of Earth. And so I think that's what hit me the most, was just there are no borders, and we're all the same.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:44Gosh, well, it's a unique and probably highly impressive team that you're with. I mean, we know the road to get to becoming a NASA astronaut is certainly one that is very difficult. Starts from many, many, in the 1000s, down to 10. And so, you know, when we think about leadership, and I've heard you share this before with others, you talk about teamwork and leadership, maybe explain a little bit what that's like in space when you're all so highly effective leaders. You know, what does that look like? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 6:12That's a great question. You know, I think for us, it is a very fluid movement, right? You lead one day; you follow the next. And you know, I'll give you an example. So Anne McClain was the commander of SpaceX Crew-10 for NASA. So she was in charge of Crew-10 is our ride up to the space station, and our ride home, right? It's the capsule, the rocket and the capsule. And then we were on Expedition 73 aboard the International Space Station, where Takuya, who it was, Takuya Onishi, who was our mission specialist on Dragon, soon as we crossed into the hatch and he took command. He is now the commander of the Space Station, and Anne and I are flight engineers, and so it's a pretty fluid movement in terms of leading and following. But ultimately, you know, it's just about being a good team and taking care of each other. And I think that being a good leader is taking care of other people. And, you know, we talk about team care — self-care, and team care are like the huge parts that we actually train and learn about at NASA as we go through our training, because you're on this really small space in the vacuum of space for five-plus months at a time, and it's — there are only seven people up there and everybody's going to have a bad day. We're all humans, and you can't, there's no hiding.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:30What's a bad day like in space?
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 7:32People make mistakes, right? We're all human. You might make a mistake on something, you might mess up a procedure. You hope that it's not something that causes a safety incident, right? The main goal for me, at least, was, I know I'm going to make mistakes. As long as I'm not unsafe, I'll be happy. And I think that a lot of us have that conscious decision-making process. But I think that we're also humans and have Earth lives, and your Earth life doesn't stop when you go to space. And so bad days could be something going on at home. Bad days could be something going on in space. Could be an interaction that you had with somebody on the ground that, you know, there's a lot of communication that happens between us on the ground. There are thousands of humans on the Earth that keep the Space Station running. So that day could be anything but it’s tough to hide up there. Here, you can kind of like, duck and cover and maybe you just spend the day in an office. But it doesn't happen up there. We have to continue to work and continue to function.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:32So you mentioned that there are seven of you in this tight space. Now, when you go up there, your crew, is it the same seven?
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 8:38For the majority of the time.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:42OK, excellent. So one of the things we think about whenever we're leading or we're working with teams is trust, and obviously you have a great amount of trust with the crew that you're going up there with. But then you mentioned you went on to the ISS and you're working with others. What does that look like when it's someone maybe you haven't worked as closely with in a really important mission?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 9:03So for the seven expedition members, we actually do train together for a little bit of it, not nearly as closely as, you know, the four of us training for Dragon mission. But because the most dynamic parts are launch and landing, we do a lot of training together, just as the four of us, but we train all over the world. So we go to Japan and Germany and Canada, and we go to, you know, Hawthorne, California, and we go to Russia, and we train with them, and we learn about the Russian segment, and we train with our fellow cosmonauts there. And we do emergency training specifically all together, because it takes all seven of us in an emergency doing the right thing and knowing everybody's roles. And so we train that together as well. And then anytime you're in the same country or same city together, then you get to spend the time outside of the training to get to know each other. And so you actually know your crew fairly well. But obviously, everybody's from a different nation. And we had Americans, we had a Japanese astronaut, we had Russians, so you learn everybody's culture, and it's actually, you know, to your point on being in that small — and not necessarily knowing everybody. There's also a cultural aspect; we get to know each other. We get to learn about other people's cultures and figure out how to communicate and live and work, even across the whole world.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:19What was something that you learned from another culture of astronaut, maybe in the leadership realm, or just something that you took away, that's really something that surprised me, or like to emulate?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 10:30I love Taku’s leadership style. So Takuya Onishi — he's one of those more quiet humans, and he's super kind, but he is the most intelligent human I've ever met, and he is super-efficient with everything he does, and he pays attention to all of the little things. And so he only speaks up when he thinks something needs to be changed, or when he thinks that, like, we need to go in a different direction, otherwise, he's pretty happy to let you go, like, let you go as far as you want to go on something. And then when he thinks you're gonna run off a cliff, he pulls you back. So when he speaks, everybody listens. And I love that. I think some of that is cultural, obviously, him being from Japan, but I think it's also just his personal leadership style, but I learned a ton from him in terms of how to interact with people, how to let people be themselves, but also how to run a ship, and everybody knew exactly who was running the ship.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:22Wow. And it shows that respect lens that you're just kind of talking about when he spoke. Everybody listens. Is that something that you feel you already had that kind of leadership style or is that something that you've kind of evolved in yourself?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 11:37I like to think that that's the way that I lead. That's kind of how I try to be a leader. But we're not perfect, right? Nobody's perfect. And watching him, you know, taking notes from how he interacted with everybody, the things that he thought of, the things that he brought with him for us on station, you know, we get a very limited amount of stuff, personal things that we get to bring with us. And he brought things for the crew that were like, huge milestones for professional careers. You know, just the attention to detail on the human beings around him was pretty phenomenal. So it's one of the things I'm working on to be better at, because I like to think I'm good at it. But I saw the master work.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:18I love that. And something you said about him, he always has attention to detail, and he saw the little things. He paid attention to the little things. I remember a past conversation we had. You had a little nugget from Col. Nick Hague, also USAFA — ’98 I believe. And I think he said to you, something about, you know, “Nicole, don't forget that you're squishy,” or something like that. And so have you had more of those moments in there where they're like little nuggets or little moments that actually give you a big return or big lessons in your life?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 12:46Oh, definitely, yeah, that one's a funny one, because the space station is metal. Everything is metal, and it's hard and so we still have weight, well, mass. We still have mass. We don't have weight, right, because we're in microgravity. But if you're cooking around a corner and you run into a handrail, it's gonna hurt, you know, if you imagine going 10 or 15 mph into something metal, it's gonna hurt — you're squishy. So that was a great lesson in slowing down and making sure you're watching your surroundings. But one of the things that Anne McClain says that cracks me up, but every time it happens, like, “Yep, this is definitely—," she says, “Experience is that thing you learn right after you need it.” And so we had a lot of those moments where you learn a lesson and you're like, “Ah, I wish I knew that five minutes ago.” And so that's something that applies everywhere. Experience is that thing you always needed right before that happened. But we also like to say Crew-10 can do hard things. That's another thing that was just kind of our motto, whether it's training — some of the training can be really physically demanding. It's really mentally demanding. And it's a lot of travel. When you get assigned to a mission, it's probably a year and a half to two years of training, and then you're gone for six months. So out of that two to two and a half years, you're not home for over a year. So you're all over the world, traveling to train and work. And like I said, we're all humans. We have Earth lives, we have homes, you get situations back home. And so navigating personal lives, navigating professional lives, navigating tough training. Crew-10 can do hard things. We like to say that.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:22I like that. It also talks a bit about your grit. Crew-10 grit. So, talking about hard things, I'd like to take us to the time when you've been piloting the F-22 and you've seen combat. I heard you speaking a little bit before about a no-notice deployment. Let's visit that time in your life. What were you doing? What was your role, and what was something you experienced? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 14:47Sure. So I was actually flying the day that we got notified. And, you know, just a standard training sortie — had landed, and some of the maintainers were like, “Hey, have you heard what's happening?” And I was like, “No, what's happening?” And then we had a big squadron meeting, and that's when we got notified, like, “Hey, we're deploying.” We were on the GRF, is what it was called at the time, Global Response Force, and I think some of that structure has changed since I left that squadron, but we knew that once we were on the GRF, there was a chance that we would get activated and get moved somewhere. Didn't necessarily expect it to be quite that quick. I think it was like the next week we got this deployment. So we got notified on a Thursday, I think, and then on Monday, I was taking off.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:31Oh, really no notice.
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 15:33Yeah, so, four days later, we were taking off, and then seven days later, we were flying missions from — we were stationed at Al Udeid Air Base, so we're flying out of Al Udeid within a week.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:45How many with you?
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 15:47So when we deploy, we actually deploy with our maintenance squadrons, 300 people. Twenty to 30 of them are the pilots, and then the rest are the maintainers. And so it's the entire squadron. We morph into an expeditionary squadron. And so there are 300 people that head out.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:03So I imagine, you know, on top of the fact that it was such a rapid movement, there's probably things that people had to obviously work through family. This needs to happen. But what were some things that you experienced in that deployment, or even in just that transition?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 16:21Again, I go back to taking care of people. I was a flight commander at the time. We had two flight commanders, so I'm in charge of basically half the squadron, and we had a really wonderful commander who gave us the authority and the autonomy to leave the squadron. So, you know, it's about saying, like, “How are you guys doing at home?” Half our squadron didn't even have tan flight suits. You know, we're trying, we're working with logistics. We're trying to get everything ready. Like, does everybody have a go bag? Does everybody even know what a go bag is? Do you have the things you need? So working all of that. And then do you have the childcare figured out? Do you have the — how is all your family doing? Are you ready for this? And then we had to do a bunch of last-minute training before we left. And so it's a really busy time, but it was one of the first times where I felt like I had an influence on the people that were under me, that I had supervised. And so it was a really great experience to solve those problems, figure it out and help people get off the ground in four days successfully, and leaving something, some semblance of structure at home.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:24So you said it was the first time where you kind of really felt that you had that impact. What would you say kind of maybe crystallized within yourself in learning that?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 17:36I think it really solidified. I think I said, “I try to lead by taking care of people,” right? I truly believe if you take care of the human, they're going to do a really great job. You don't have to ask much of people at work and in their professional life, if their personal and the human side of them is taken care of and so that's kind of what I mean when I say that solidified it for me, like, make sure that the humans are good to go, and they'll go do anything you want to do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:04Wow. So while on that deployment, you're leading half of that squadron. What were some of the challenges maybe that you experienced, and how did you grow as a leader during that timeframe?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 18:14Scheduling is definitely a tough one. So we flew daytime and nighttime. We basically had an F-22 airborne for almost 24 hours a day for the entire six months, six and a half months. We left and we were told it might be two- or three-month deployment, and then it turned into six months. And then we got delayed up coming home. And so then we stayed through Christmas. And those are the things that really are tough for people. But we have a limited number of jets that we took. We have a limited number of pilots; we have a limited number of maintainers and parts. And so I think for us, managing a schedule between me and the other flight commander, managing a schedule, managing quality of life for everybody, and make sure that we're not burning people out, or that they're not —we're flying eight-, nine-, 10-hour sorties, right? And that's exhausting. It's just you and that airplane with your wingman and a different airplane. And so you have to manage, again, that human factor. The human capital is probably the toughest thing to manage.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15Wow, and you talked about how the deployment kind of got extended. What were some things, because many of our listeners and our viewers are leaders, and at different levels of leadership and different times in their lives where they're doing that. When you were leading, and you had some of those subordinates, or those that were working with you that really experienced some troubles, through emotions, through some of that. How did you help navigate them through that when you were all in that as well?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 19:46Right. You know, I think at NASA especially, we talk about self-care being a huge part of team care. And so making sure I do this in my regular life too, but, you know, making sure that you're getting enough rest, making sure that you're taking care of yourself and your personal life, so that you can truly be present for the other people that need you. And I think being present for others is one of the biggest things that you can do. You know, they may not need a ton of help, or they may not need the solution, but being there, being available and being present for people is really important. But you can't do that unless you're good to go yourself.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:18Did you see that from someone? Did you learn that from someone you saw doing that? Or just, how did, I mean NASA's — you said, NASA, but did you see that at the Academy? Or where did you kind of gather that?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 20:28You know, I think one of the things that hit me hard about showing up and being present was actually more professional. I kind of skated through the Academy on minimal sleep, and I was able to manage everything. But I wasn't flying a $143 million airplane. And so, in pilot training, we started to talk about crew rest and pilot rest. That's the first time that I had heard this concept of, “You need to go home and get rest so that you can be on your game.” Because flying airplanes, your decisions have real consequences, right? And you have to be present and available, and you have to be on your game to fly airplanes and do well in airplanes. And then the faster and the higher and the better the airplane gets, the more on your game you have to be. So I think it's something that has just kind of evolved in me. And then, as a leader, I realized, if you don't have any gas in the tank, you cannot help somebody else. And so for me, it's just kind of been, over the last decade and a half, of, wow, I need my sleep. I need to make sure I'm good to go. I need to make sure my human is good, so that way I can help other humans. And yeah, when your decisions have real consequences, it's important that you're present and you're ready to go.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43Have you seen some of the fact that you prioritize that for yourself, for you as your own human? Have you seen others kind of like see that, view that, and actually take that on as well themselves.Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 21:53Yeah, I think they do. And I think, as a leader, it's really important to set that example. The commander cannot be the first one in last one out. Like, you just can't do that, because everybody's going to stay until you leave. So setting the example, setting the example of having a good home-life balance as well. Like, home and work have to be balanced. Sleep has to be balanced. Again, self-care is the biggest part of team care, I think. And if you model that, people start to realize it's important. You know, the younger people that might burn themselves out trying to get somewhere, trying to get to the next step, or trying to impress somebody, or whatever the case may be, if they see you taking a step back and they see your success, maybe then they can start worrying about themselves too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:34I think that's a great lesson, leading by example. For sure. There are probably moments that you experience both at the Academy, while flying the F-22 or as an astronaut, where you don't have the luxury of balance. How do you navigate that and how do you help others get to that space maybe quicker?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 22:53I think of everything as a season in life. It might just be a busy season, and you might just have to put some time in but making sure that you are planning ahead and know that you're gonna be able to take some time and reset. And that could be anything, right? That could be personal life, professional life. That could be the four-week training trip that we've got is going to be rough, and its multiple time zones, and it's a ton of training, it's a ton of information. You just have to get through it. But then, that week, when we got home, I made sure my schedule was a little lighter. Whatever the balance is, I think of things in seasons. Crew-10 can do hard things, right? And that came from — you can get through this next training session, right? But we're gonna do a mask-to-suit transition, which is like in a fire, you've got a mask on. You have to get from that mask into your spacesuit. It's a significant physical event. And there's limited oxygen; there's limited ability to breathe in the suit when in that specific environment. And so how do you slow down, take the breaths you need to get in there to not then get to a point where you're panicking, right? Or that you're too exhausted or too hot or overdid, or whatever it is, right? So I think even just that, that is a season. We're going to do two hours of this. That's my season, and then we'll get out of the simulator, we'll take a break, right? And if it happened on orbit, it would be like, “We're going to get through this. We're going to solve the problem. We're going to manage the emergency, and then once things are set, we'll have a moment to breathe.” So that's kind of how I think of it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:21Did seasons come something, a term that you kind of realized maybe at the Academy, you were a volleyball athlete at the Academy, and so volleyball has a season. But my question is, like, how did you come to that realization? Like, “Oh, I can get through this, and I put it in a bucket of time.”Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 24:35You learn a lot of time management at the Academy, and when you're in the fall, you're really busy, spring season is less busy, and so you kind of learn early how to manage. Like, “OK, I’ve got to run. I gotta sprint,” right? “And then I can jog later, or I can walk later.” So, I think you learn that growing up in school, and you know, if you play sports or you do extracurricular activities or other things like that, or even just seasons in life at home, life ebbs and flows. I don't even know when I started saying it, but my sister and I started saying “seasons of life” to each other a long time ago. You know, she's got three kiddos, so she's been in all sorts of seasons. But, yeah, it's just, you know, I think I started to time block things, or block things off and just, and that's the only way you're going to get through life, is if you focus on what you need to do right now, be good at it, and then move to the next thing. You can have an idea of what's coming next, but you have to be present and do what you're doing there. Yes, so, yeah, seasons, time, blocks, whatever you want to call it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:39I like that. Well, you brought up your sister, and so you're an auntie of three. Let's talk about your personal life and leadership, some experiences you've had navigating your schedule. You're on the road so much. How do you prioritize? I guess the things that are important to you when you have such a heavy schedule, yeah, being on the road and the people that are important to you, right?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:03Man, I think that for me, my family has been a huge support system my whole life. My twin sister — built in best friend.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:13And who is older?
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:14She is. She's got me by a minute.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:18OK. Does she hold that over you?
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:20Yes, of course she does. We've just always supported each other 100% and everything. She's been my biggest cheerleader through all of my life, and I've been her biggest cheerleader through all of her life. And you know, my main goal in life is to be the coolest auntie, like the best auntie, and I would die happy. And they're a huge priority to me. I see them every couple two to three months — since my oldest has was born. So for the last 14 years, just made it a priority, even if it's like, leave late on a Friday night and then get home late Sunday night, I make the effort to go see them and to interact with them. And you know, to help foster them. You know they're growing up. And I love watching kids grow up and experience the world and see what can be done. Their dad's a Marine, their mom's this really successful real estate agent, their auntie’ a pilot-slash-astronaut. You know, they've got, like, all these no family that's really not doing very much. Yeah, you know, they'vegot all these really great role models. And my goal is to just show them that it doesn't matter who you are, like they only ever know me as auntie. Like they know I'm an astronaut, and they love that. Their friends know that I'm an astronaut. Anti vapor, no, no, yeah. But, you know, like, they're always gonna get a big hug from auntie, like, that's, that's what's important to me.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:36Well, you mentioned, going into space, being an auntie. So, would you describe your time and space is, it's probably out of this world. I mean, that's, wow, that's terrible. That's terrible I said it that way. But I think you've mentioned it is kind of the best time in your life.Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 27:52Yeah. Best five months my life.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:56Best five months of your life, and it's passed. Now, when we think about our evolution, whether personally, professionally, as leaders, etc., we have these ideas in our mind, like, this is the pinnacle. How do you navigate what's next after you've experienced that pinnacle?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 28:14Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's something that a lot of us struggle with when we come home. What's next? We get six months, some time to think and kind of get reintegrated. And you don't necessarily have to go back to work right away. I was able to spend a ton of time with my sister and her kiddos. Yeah, what's next. And I think for me, like the drive out to the launch pad, I was like, “Man, I've made it.” You know, the first time I looked out the window from Dragon, “I've made it.” First time we crossed the hatch, and I went and looked out the glass like, “Wow. The hard work paid off.” And I still feel like that to this day. I would have spent four more months in space if they had asked me to, and I would have turned around and launched right back then the day that we landed, and it was because of the crewmates that I spent it with and the fulfillment that I got from the mission. But I think you can find fulfillment in a lot of ways. And you know, my job, now that I've been back, I'm going to be working with the new class of astronauts and their training for spacewalk. So in the Neutral Buoyancy Lab, our big pool, like, my job is to be their mentor as they go through the spacewalk training. And you know, like, I cannot wait. I'm so excited. I cannot wait to have an impact and try to help teach this next generation of spacewalkers, this next generation of astronauts, to be better than us. I find a lot of fulfillment in making the next generation better. So I think, however the fulfillment shows up for people, I think as long as you can find something, there you'll be happy. Going to space was great, but teaching and instructing and mentoring is also really fulfilling for me.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:54And that will be 10 of them? How many will that be?
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 29:55Ten.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:56Ten. So then you'll have 13. You'll be auntie to 13. Oh, that's wonderful. What have you learned about yourself since then? You know, you've evolved as a leader through different situations, high threat, high risk. Safety is paramount. All of those different experiences. And now you're back on Earth and you're about to, you know, mentor. How have you evolved your leadership, and where would you say you're trying to go?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 30:23Where am I trying to go? I think, for me, leadership is also about being vulnerable and being open and honest with people about failures or hardships and so, you know, like in the flying community, if you make a mistake, you're immediately like, “Hey, I messed this up. Here's how we fix it.” And that's something that we do at NASA as well, especially on a grand scale, right? Thousands of employees and everybody like, that's the only way that we get to space is by admitting when we've made mistakes, talking to each other about how we fix it and sharing those lessons learned. And so I think that especially when you get into the higher roles of leadership, it's important to go, “Hey, I messed up,” or, “Hey, I don't know the answer.” And being transparent with the people that you're working with. And if you don't know it, but you know where to go find it, like, “I'll get that answer for you,” instead of making up an answer, trying to figure out how to look like you're in charge, right? It's really important to me to also show that we don't know everything. We're human. We make mistakes, and it's OK to make mistakes, as long as you share it, and you share the lessons learned, and you make the next person better.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:32Did you experience that personally? Did you have a moment in which you had to say, “Hey, I made a mistake,” and that's helped you realize that being vulnerable is really important or is that just something you've seen done really well?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 31:40Oh, I've admitted a lot of mistakes. You know, I made a couple pretty big mistakes in the Raptor. Everybody's gonna make a big mistake at some point in their life. And, you know, I think that that was something that was modeled really well in the flying community early on. And it's something that's not tolerated if you're not willing to share your lessons learned. It's not tolerated in that community. That’s a really good thing. I learned that in pilot training, right? If your buddy in your class makes the same mistake the next day that you made, you get in trouble because you didn't tell them how to how to prepare. And so it's fostered early on, especially in the flying community. I can't speak to any other community because I grew up there, but it's fostered early on, and so it's just something that comes naturally. I think eventually, because you just, you've seen it done so many times, and if you want other people to succeed, you're going to do it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:29All right. Well, we have two questions left. The first one is, what's something you do every day to be a better leader?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 32:37That's a good one. This is gonna sound silly, but I sleep. Like, I'll go back to the self-care thing, right? Like, I put a lot of attention into being healthy, being hydrated, sleeping well. Like, if you take care of your body, your mind is going to do way more for you. And so I think you can show up as a better leader if you show up, rested, hydrated, fed, worked out whatever you need to do to be the best human you can be.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:09That's what I try to do. OK. I like that a lot, and I think that's a good indication for me that six hours is probably not enough. Naviere needs a little bit more. And it's truth, because you told me, though I'm gonna do that. The second one is, if you could go back in time, maybe what's something you would have told yourself — your younger self — or maybe, as our cadets are listening, that you've learned and what they can be doing now to be a better leader down the road.Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 33:34If you run into a hardship or you fail at something, or something feels insurmountable, or you don't feel like you're ready, good enough, or whatever the case may be, doubt starts to seep in, right? I would say, rely on the support system that you have. Rely on the people around you. Talk about it. Figure out, you know, “Hey, I failed this GR, like, man, this kind of sucks.” And you know, maybe you just need to hear me say it out loud, and maybe I just need to get it off my chest, or maybe I need help trying to figure out the solution for whatever the case may be. So, you know, I had a built-in team on the volleyball team. I had a built-in friends and teammates that I could lean on. Maybe that's your squadronmates or your classmates, or whoever it is, right? And I think finding the friends that you can rely on for the rest of your life. Professionally, I've got a friend here that I met in the F-22 community. We've been friends for almost a decade now, and he's still one of the first people that I call when something happens, like, “Oh, I messed this up today. Help.” So, you know, finding a support system. My sister's the other person that I call first off.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:38She probably knows you're gonna call when you call.
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 34:39Yeah, we talk way too much. But, you know, having that support system around you and finding people that really bolster you and get you across that line and help you find the courage to take the next step, I think that's really important.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:54I know I said there was only two, but as I've listened to you, I just think you're just you're just remarkable, and maybe what's something that you're proud about yourself as a leader. I would really love to hear that in your, you know—Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 35:05I think the thing that makes me the most proud as a leader is when somebody succeeds and it's something that I helped them do. I've had somebody come back and say, “Thanks for saying that.” That pushed me out the edge, you know, like, I'm really into building the next generation and make them better than us. And so if I see somebody succeeding, that's good.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:27Well, this has been incredible. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you would love to share with the Long Blue Line in our community?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 35:33Oh, man, the community is great. I think I would just say thank you to the community. I've gotten so much love and support from Coloradans, but also the Long Blue Line and the Air Force in general. You know, I love the community that we have. It goes right back to what I just said, right, finding a community that supports you and pushes you to do better and be better. And this is that community.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:55Well, Vapor, I promise I'm gonna get more sleep, and I just want to thank you for being such an incredible leader and guest here on Long Blue Leadership.
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 36:03Thanks for having me back. Absolutely.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:05Thanks. You know, this conversation was really incredible with Vapor. I think some of the things that really stood out to me is just how incredible as a human she is. She brings humanity into leadership. She puts people first. She thinks about the team. She works hard. Don't forget to prioritize sleep. But I think really, some of the lessons that we can all take away can hit us all personally, because if you think about people first and taking care of them, and the fact that you have to take care of yourself too, you can go really far in leadership. So I really appreciate her today on Long Blue Leadership. And I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Until next time.
 
KEYWORDS
Joel Neeb, Long Blue Leadership, Air Force Academy leadership, USAFA leadership, military leadership podcast, leadership development, leadership lessons, character-based leadership, leadership under pressure, leading with integrity, decision making in leadership, mentorship and leadership, values-based leadership, service before self, leadership mindset, leadership podcast interview, military leadership stories, leadership for professionals, leadership for entrepreneurs, how to be a better leader, leadership growth.
 
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 
 

What does courage look like under fire? In captivity? In command? In service?
This edition of Long Blue Leadership was recorded on location at the U.S. Air Force Academy’s 33rd National Character and Leadership Symposium. We've explored these questions with our guests and captured the conversations for you.
Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist for the Air Force Academy Association and Foundation, hosts this special episode featuring voices shaped by combat, crises and lifelong service. Their message to cadets is clear: Leadership is earned through character, and character is forged in hard moments.
- Seg. 1: Lt. Col. Mark George and C1C Jaime Snyder, officer and NCLS cadet director, respectively, set the stage for this year's NCLS and for the podcast.- Seg. 2: Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel "DT" Del Toro on courage in times of crisis. - Seg. 3: Task Force Hope developer and facilitator Maj. Tara Holmes on preparing future leaders to handle crisis before it happens.- Seg. 4: Former POW Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier ’64, on leading in circumstances out of your control. - Seg. 5: Annapolis grad and Vietnam-era aviator, Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb on how character breeds courage.
All of our guest’s lives and careers reflect the reality of this year’s theme through combat, crisis and service.
 
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS: - Host, Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist, United States Air Force Academy Association and Foundation - Seg. 1: C1C Jaime Snyder, NCLS Cadet Director; Lt. Col. Mark George, NCLS Officer - Seg. 2: Senior Master Sargent Israel Del Toro - Seg. 3: Maj. Tara Holmes, Task Force Hope - Seg. 4: Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier ’64 - Seg. 5: Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb
 
Ted Robertson 0:00Welcome to Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of the 33rd annual National Character and Leadership Symposium. I'm Ted Robertson, multimedia and podcast specialist for the Air Force Academy Association & Foundation, coming to you from Polaris Hall located here at the United States Air Force Academy. This year's symposium centers on the theme Courage to Lead in the Profession of Arms: Combat and Crisis-tested Character, where attendees and cadets will explore how courage in all its forms shapes leaders when uncertainty, fear and consequence are real. Our coverage will start with the Center for Character and Leadership Development’s Lt. Col. Mark George and NCLS director, Cadet 1st Class Jaime Snyder. They’ll set the stage not only for NCLS, but for today's coverage. Then we'll talk with four key leaders speaking at the symposium, including Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel Del Torro on keeping courageous during times of crisis. We’ll also talk with Task Force Hope developer and facilitator, Maj. Tara Holmes, on preparing leaders to handle crisis before it happens. Then, former POW, Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier, USAFA Class of ’64, on leading in circumstances out of your control. And finally, Annapolis grad and Vietnam-era aviator, Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb, on how character breeds courage. All of our guests’ lives and careers reflect the reality of this year's theme through combat, crisis and service. So I want to bring in our first two guests to help, as I said, frame the discussion today. We're going to dig in to learn what this is all about and sort of the “why” behind it. Cadet Jaime Snyder, 2026 NCLS director. Cadet Snyder, you've helped lead the organizing of the National Character and Leadership Symposium — 33rd year for this, as you know, and part of that work, you've trained cadets and permanent party. I'm going to ask you to explain permanent party, all of which helps strengthen your own public speaking and leadership communication skills. You want to kind of expound on that a bit?C1C Jaime Snyder 2:20Yes, sir. So a part of my role being in NCLS is to, one, provide the guidance, the support and resources on the cadet side to succeed. But what really makes NCLS special is that we integrate permanent party with cadets. So oftentimes me, in supporting and training permanent party, is giving them cadet perspective, because while they're over here and the Center for Character and Leadership Development, we're over there in the Cadet Wing, and I can be the mediator between both parties.Ted Robertson 2:46Let's talk a little bit about permanent party. What does that term mean? Who does that describe?C1C Jaime Snyder 2:52Oh yes. Permanent party describes the civilian and military faculty that works in the Center for Character and Leadership Development that assists with the execution of NCLS — the National Character and Leadership Symposium.Ted Robertson 3:05How big is the team behind this event every year?C1C Jaime Snyder 3:08It's kind of complex where we'll get search cadets. We'll get a large number of volunteers, approximately around 300 from the Cadet Wing. Internal staff consists of 50 cadets who work it throughout the entire year, and around 50 staff members who are permanent party who work in the Center for Character and Leadership Development.Ted Robertson 3:29I want to bring in next Lt. Col. Mark George, who is the experiential and training division chief and NCLS program director, the very fortunate man that gets to work for some incredibly talented cadets.Col. Mark George 3:43That is absolutely true. Thanks to for having us on. Cadet Snyder has done an outstanding job leading this team. I came into this a little bit late. You know, we've had some reorganization here at the Academy, and after some shuffling, I got the honor and the privilege to take over NCLS while the planning was well underway. So my job was to just make sure this train kept rolling, that people had the resources that they needed, the top cover they needed. And as Jamie said, he was training me as a permanent party member to make sure that I had the cadet perspective. And then, you know, we were moving this ball forward as we got to this event.
Ted Robertson 4:23So coming up in the podcast we’ll get to the sort of “why” and what’s at the core of NCLS. Colonel, let’s start with you. What is National Character and Leadership Symposium designed to do for cadets?
 
Col. Mark George 4:38Sure. The National Character and Leadership Symposium — NCLS — is designed to bring exemplars that embody the core values and the traits that we want cadets to have when they become leaders on Day 1 and inspire them to a lifetime of service.
 
Ted Robertson 4:57Cadet Snyder?
 
C1C Jaime Snyder 4:59We definitely see at USAFA, there is a clear correlation with NCLS and character development. One thing we want cadets to get out of NCLS is to further develop leaders of character who are going to join the fight in the Air Force and Space Force, and that's why I see the epitome of NCLS as it's an opportunity to hear people's perspectives as well as learn from it and apply it to their daily lives.
Ted Robertson 5:24Gentlemen, this year's theme focuses on the courage to lead in the profession of arms. Cadet Snyder, we'll start with you. How did that theme come together, and why is it especially relevant for cadets right now?C1C Jaime Snyder 5:40With our current structure at USAFA, we've had some implement of change. We recognize that the future war conflict is more prevalent than ever, and that it's important for the cadets to understand that we're changing the way we approach training, as well as what we're learning in curriculum. So this NCLS was an incredible opportunity to discuss courage when leading in the profession of arms, but furthermore, courage and crises-tested character. Which is what we're trying to further push along with what we do in training as well as what we teach in leadership.Ted Robertson 6:15You make good decisions when your character is strong. You make those decisions with integrity when your character is intact and it's strong. Would you agree with that, Colonel?Col. Mark George 6:25Absolutely. And I think Cadet Snyder hit the nail on the head that we really want the cadets to understand that the environments that they're stepping into are going to require that courage to do hard things. In my day, like we didn't necessarily think about the fight in that way. You know, we were kind of stovepiped in. And these cadets, whatever environment they may be stepping into, the next conflict is going to require a lot, a high demand of them, and their character is their foundation for that.
Ted Robertson 6:59One of the things you can say about this event is that it brings together voices from combat, crisis, athletics, academia and industry. How intentional is that mix, Cadet Snyder, and what do cadets gain from hearing such different perspectives on leadership and character?
C1C Jaime Snyder 7:18I think by hearing different perspectives, you get to see how universal courage is. When we say courage, it's not just one thing, it's also moral, social, spiritual. And by looking at different versions of courage, you can understand that there's different ways to actually apply courage. Understanding that courage is not the absence of fear, also knowing that courage is not simply being a confident individual. That it's more complex than you may define courage, and so you can then apply it that way — by looking at different perspectives.
Ted Robertson 7:53Colonel, I'll address this one to you as well.Col. Mark George 7:56Sure. Courage — we're talking about courage here, and there's a heavy focus on the combat side with this year's speakers. The thing that sticks out to me is that courage always involves a decision to do the hard thing. And that's what all of our speakers brought this year. They're showing how in different environments, whether it's in a prison cell in Hanoi or up on the Space Station or — there's a hard decision and the right thing is sometimes pretty obvious, but it doesn't mean it's easy. It does not mean it's easy to do. And so courage always involves a decision to do the right thing.Ted Robertson 8:39Cadet Snyder?C1C Jaime Snyder 8:40What he said I find to be very true — understanding that courage is not simply doing something physical, but also in a leadership role, especially — we're talking to cadets who are going to soon be commissioned officers. It's important to know that you need to make the right decision on and off the battlefield.Ted Robertson 8:58So from your perspective as a cadet — and this one is just for you, Cadet Snyder — what does it mean to help shape an event like NCLS while you’re still developing as a leader yourself?C1C Jaime Snyder 9:10What I've seen through NCLS is taking the time to relax. Don't focus on the future and focus where you're at right now, and that's character development. So don't let the pursuit of tomorrow diminish the joy today. We all have this aspiration to graduate, throw our hats in the air, Thunderbirds fly over. But right now it's important to focus on character development as that's going to be important as future officers.
Ted Robertson 9:35That makes 1,000% very clear sense. But I do want to ask you, less than 100 days from the day you toss your hat — you're giving me a big smile right now — talk about how that feels right now for you.
C1C Jaime Snyder 9:47It's incredible, and a part of it is less daunting, because I can say this institution has really prepared me to commission, and so it's more liberating than daunting for me.Ted Robertson 9:58Col. George, I'm going to direct this one straight to you, and this is an ask of you from the leadership perspective: How do we events Like NCLS fit into the broader effort to intentionally develop leaders of character here at the Academy.
Col. Mark George 10:14So I get the honor of leading the experiential and training division in the Center for Character and Leadership Development. So we're all about creating experiences and those opportunities for cadets to have different types of environments where they'll learn about character. And right now, NCLS is an opportunity to listen to where people's character was tested, how they overcame it. And then we also have different events that we try to put the cadets in where we'll actually test their character. And that could be on the challenge tower, it could be through our character labs where we're having discussions. NCLS is a huge part of that, because the planning cycle is so long.
Ted Robertson 10:59Cadet Snyder?
C1C Jaime Snyder 11:00Yes, sir. One thing I wanted to add on to that is with NCLS, one thing that makes this event the most unique experience that I've had is the fact that we get to engage in meaningful dialog. This isn't a brief. This is an experience for everyone who attends. I've had the opportunity to talk to Col. George's son, who aspires to possibly come to the Air Force Academy. So I don't want to say this is just for cadets, but it's also a promotion tool. And understand that what we do at NCLS is very important. And anyone who wants to attend can come and see what we're doing and how important it is.
 
Col. Mark George 11:33I want to thank you for that, by the way. He looks up to you, and that meant a lot.
 
Ted Robertson 11:37That's pretty visionary stuff. That's touching the next generation. That's fantastic. All right, this is for you both. When cadets look back on NCLS years from now, what do you hope they're going to remember feeling or being challenged to do differently?
 
C1C Jaime Snyder 11:56There is a very strong human component to NCLS, and with that, there's a human experience. Understanding that we're getting speakers and we'll see their bios that they're incredible. They have incredible stories of making the right decision when tensions were high, and getting to hear their stories and understand that they ultimately were no different than we are. Some of them were Air Force Academy graduates. Some graduated from the Naval Academy, West Point, other colleges, but they were young, 20-year-old people like we were as cadets. And so getting to understand where they're coming from, human experience is vital to NCLS, and how do we grow and understand where they're coming from?
Ted Robertson 12:38Col. George?
Col. Mark George 12:39 Yeah, I think what I would want the cadets to remember is how these speakers made them feel. You're right, you won't remember every nugget of wisdom that was said. I just had the opportunity to talk with Gen. Scott Miller, and he was an incredible leader. And I feel like everything he was saying was gold. I wish I'd been able to write it down. But he really makes you feel like you understand just how important your role is going to be as a young leader. And when you come away as second lieutenants from this place, you've had incredible opportunities and now you're stepping out in the real world. I would think I want the cadets to remember that like, “Hey, what I do matters, and how I lead is very important to getting this mission done.”
 
Ted Robertson 13:24Lt. Col. Mark George and C1C Jaime Snyder, officer and cadet in charge of the 33rd NCLS. Congratulations on the event. Well done, and thank you for spending time here with us on the podcast today. Hearing from both the cadet perspective and the senior leadership behind NCLS makes one thing very clear: This symposium is intentionally designed not just to inspire but to prepare future leaders for moments when character will be tested. And that brings me to my first featured guest, a man whose life story embodies what combat and crisis-tested character truly means. Israel “DT” Del Toro, welcome to the podcast. It's an honor to be with you here at the National Character and Leadership Symposium.
Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel Del Toro 14:18Thank you, Ted. Thanks for having me. Good to see you again.
 
Ted Robertson 14:21Yes, it's not the first time we've gotten to spend some time together. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 14:24It's always great to talk to people, try and spread the word of the whole spark and the promise of my dad.Ted Robertson 14:30The spark and the promises are the two things that really stood out to me about that interview — your heart and your soul man, from a very, very early age.
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 14:39 You know, losing my dad at 12, and then a year and a half later, losing my mom to a drunk driver, and being the oldest, you know, having to now kind of step up to be, like, the parent figure to my younger siblings. It was challenging.
 
Ted Robertson 14:55Out of all of that, you wound up as a retired — you are currently a retired senior master sergeant. You took responsibility for your siblings, as you say, after you were orphaned as a teenager, and ultimately in the service combat-wounded airmen, and you survived catastrophic injuries against incredible odds, and that did not keep you down. One of the things that you did was you became an Invictus Games gold medalist. You're now a national speaker, and you talk a lot about resilience and purpose.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 15:27Yes, sir. Yeah, Invictus, I won gold in shot put. It was pretty awesome. You know, everyone was just going nuts. Ted Robertson 15:37You kind of make me feel like that was a soul-feeding, motivating time for you.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 15:42It was. At that time, I was probably one of the senior guys, kind of. Obviously, I was one of the senior guys, wounded guys on the team, and so a lot of people looked up to me. And sometimes I wish — people would say, “Man, it's great. You're such trailblazer.” You're sometimes like, “Man, I just want to be one of the guys. I just, I just want to be No. 10.” You know, everything's all done, and no one's focusing everything on me. But it's a burden that I'm willing to carry on to try and continue to help people.
 
Ted Robertson 16:19I want to linger here in your background a bit, because it's more than just impressive. I think impressive is pretty trite to describe what your background is. Let's start with before the Air Force and before combat, and just how your life demanded responsibility at such a young age. And what I want to ask is, how did stepping up for your family shape the leader that you became?Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 16:40Well, I contribute that totally to my dad. I truly do. My dad was there. My dad, you know, I went everywhere with my dad. My dad — you know, he came from Mexico to this country, and he gave up a lot. You know, my family in Mexico is very wealthy, their ranchers and all that. He came here with nothing. And he always used to tell me, he's like, “Don't ever be envious of someone that's successful. Learn from them. Ask them questions.” He also used to tell me, “If you don't succeed, it's no one else's fault by yourself. Don't blame where you came from, where you grew up from, the situation. It is only your fault.” So my dad always had told me these little lessons and obviously the last lesson he gave me the night before he passed: Always take care of your family. And that just stayed with me, that kind of continued to shape me all throughout my life, all through my journey, at a young age to teenager to young adult to the military and to now, to this day, that really guided me to who I am. Now, it's like, I always hear people say, “Oh, man, I don't know if I can do it.” I was like, “Yeah, you can. You Just never know. You weren't ever put in that situation” I always believe — you always hear the fight or flight. “What are you gonna do?” I just fight, and I continue to fight. I just don't see the flight in me. And, you know, being the promise of take care of your family. Yes, I tell people, that originated with my family — my brothers and sisters. But throughout time it has evolved to now anyone I see that’s having a hard time that needs maybe to hear a story or read a book or hear a journey to help them find that spark, because I see them now as my family. I see that as my family, as my mission now.
 
Ted Robertson 18:50Let's stay with spark for a minute. It's just one of my favorite things that you've ever talked about. You're down, you've been badly burned, you're worried about whether you're going to survive, and a medic is helping you out, and he does something for you. He says something to you.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 19:07Yeah, you know, the medic — I always like to say, you know, yes, I'm Air Force. Those guys were Army, and we bust each other's chops. But, we're all brothers and sisters, and we're down range, you know? We take care of each other, we tell stories, we talk about our family. So these guys knew what had happened in my past with my family. So when I'm, you know, laying there, after I coordinate getting air, and I started the adrenaline going down, I started getting scared. I was having a hard time breathing, and I just wanted to lay down and sleep. The medic came and reminded me, “DT, remember what you promised your son, that you'll never let him grow without his dad. Fight for your son. You got to fight for your son.” And he's just making me yell it. You use anything you can to keep your guy motivated, to help that spark go, keep going. And that's what he did. He found that spark to keep me going, to keep me fighting until that medevac came and to get me on that helicopter, to the FOB, to the hospital, and then to eventually San Antonio.Ted Robertson 20:24After that injury, that's when the fight shifted. You had to get off the battlefield. You had to get that out of your head. You had to start battling for your recovery. So what did courage look like when progress seemed like it was slow and at one point nothing was guaranteed?Israel Del Toro 20:46Yeah, it, you know, when he had a shift from now being on the battlefield to now a different kind of battle and your recovery, your way of life — it's difficult because you have people telling you this is what your life's going to be. You know, being told that you're never going to walk again. You got to be in a hospital for another year and a half, respirator for the rest of your life and your military career is pretty much over. You know, I like to say there's two choices again: Who you're going to be? Are you going to take the easy path, which is, I'm going to sit in a chair, accept what they say, hate life, you know, curse the world. Are you going to take the hard path where I want to fight? I'm going to show you I can do this. I'm going to prove that I still have value, and I want to come out of this ahead and show not only my son but the rest of the world. You stay positive, you find that spark, you will come out ahead.Ted Robertson 21:48All right, last question on your background, because we're going to roll all this into why you're here and what messages you want to share with the cadets and the attendees that are here. You did something I don't think most human beings would even think about after that ordeal that you had been through all those years, everything. You reenlisted, and it wasn't just a medical milestone. It wasn't because you could, it was a conscious decision. So what internal commitment had to come first for you to make that decision.Israel Del Toro 22:22You know, I guess it was, for me it was I loved my job. I knew I could teach, I could be prepare these next guys to [be] the next generation operators.Ted Robertson 22:38You’ve never stopped being committed. You've never stopped. So it brings you to NCLS. This is the 33rd year for NCLS, and when you speak to cadets here, what message do you want them to take away with them?Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 22:53I guess my message more is about that when you're in the military, no matter whatever happens to you, you still have a role to play. Even when I got hurt, did I miss being with my teammates? Yes, but now refocusing, OK, I'm here in this hospital, and I see all these wounded guys here as I guess I'm wounded also, but in my head is like I was still NCO in the Air Force. I still have a job to do. Yes, I'm hurt, I'm wounded, but the job of a leader is, no matter where you're at, is you try and take care of your troops. You try and make things better for them, even if you never see any of the benefits — that is your role. And so that's kind of what I want to leave with these guys that, you know, you're going to always have  challenges throughout your career, but you’ve always got to remember it's not about you, it's about the guys under you to take care of you. You know, I had a group of cadets yesterday and they were just asking me about leadership. So you know what? The best way to be a great leader is to earn the respect of yourtroops. If you demand it, you're not a leader, but when you earned the respect and they'll die for you, that is the greatest feeling. You know, I gave an example of one of the best moments I had after my injury, is after I got hurt, they sent my replacement, and he comes in and obviously introduce him to the scout team, to the Army company, individuals in leadership, and then the SF team, and all these guys I'm supporting. And the guy comes in like, “Hey, I'm here to replace DT.” And all of them, “You can't replace DT.” And I told that was the best moment that that's the best moment of respect, because I had Army guys saying, “He's our guy.” And that's the thing I told them, it's like, when you get to that moment when your guys say, “Nah, he's our guy,” I was like, “He can't replace him.” That is where you've truly earned the respect of your troops.
 
Ted Robertson 25:21Israel, the only word that I can pull out of myself right now for your journey to describe it as “remarkable,” and you continue to give of yourself, and that's a wonderful thing. Your opportunity for a couple of final thoughts here, before we close out.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 25:38Final thoughts, man, putting me on the spot, aren’t you. I guess my final thoughts would be, you can't do it on your own. I'm not here right now, because I did it my own. I did it. I'm never gonna say that I did. I had friends, I had family, I had my wife that were by my side all throughout my journey to medical individuals. And I had those dark times, and I'm going down that spot, that rabbit hole, they were there to pull me out of it. So I think it's like, you know, don't try and do it on your own. We all need help. You know, the goal is, don't be prideful. There's a reason pride is one of the seven deadly sins. But, you know, ask for help, ask for advice. It's not going to hurt you. If anything, it will make you stronger and better. That's parting thoughts for the individuals listening to this. Ted Robertson 26:53Perfect. Israel “DT” Del Toro, what a privilege to sit with you again. Want to say thank you from all of us for your service and continuing to lead by the example, which is a very rich and broad and deep example. Your story reminds us, and should remind us, that courage doesn't end with just survival. It always continues in service to others. Israel, thank you for being here.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 27:18Thanks, Ted. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me again.
 
Ted Robertson 27:21Israel's story reminds us that crisis and moral injury don't always arrive on a schedule, and that leaders are often expected to navigate those moments without ever having been taught how. That's where our next conversation takes us: into the intentional work of preparing leaders before crisis arrives. Maj. Tara Holmes, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you with us as part of the National Character and Leadership Symposium.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  27:46Thanks for having me; glad to be here.
 
Ted Robertson 27:48
You are currently deputy chief of staff here at Headquarters USAFA. You are formerly chief of cadet development for CCLD, the Center for Character and Leadership development. By way of background, you flew.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  28:01
So I am a B-52 electronic warfare officer by trade, and then moved over into white jets. So instructed in the in the T-1 and I've kind of been in education and training for, I'd say, since about 2017.
 
Ted Robertson  28:19
You also hold a Doctorate in Business and Management, and you are an AETC master instructor. I will let you explain AETC.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  28:27
Air Education Training Command, that's one of the that's our majcom that's responsible for education and training, and they have a pathway to become a master instructor. So I finished the qualifications for that while I was in white jets and working over at Squadron Officer School.
 
Ted Robertson  28:46
So let's talk about your work with Task Force Hope. We'll talk about what Task Force Hope is, but you are and have been a developer and facilitator of Task Force Hope, which is a crisis and moral injury leadership workshop.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  29:01
Task Force Hope is about providing immediately useful tools to our workshop participants to prepare them to lead through crisis, whether that is no-kidding combat related, or whether that's crisis on the home front, going through stuff in life that's really hard. We work through a series of key concepts and exercises, through storytelling and participant engagement that hopefully provides our participants some self-awareness and some tools to recover as it deals with their relationships.
 
Ted Robertson  29:39
We talked about this. There's a lot of nuance in what you're teaching these people. There's discernment in it. Who should you talk to, who you should trust with information that you want to share? Because ultimately, some of this becomes a pressure release valve, right?
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  29:52
Yeah, so one of the key concepts that we talk about is worthiness, right? I think often people feel pressure to not share what they're going through because they don't think their problems are worthy of attention, whether theirs or someone else's. That's one thing that we spend a lot of time on. And like you said, you know, who to who to share with, and at what level, some people are more free with sharing than others, and that's OK. So we work through some frameworks that help illustrate how people can kind of work through those levels, or gain some self-awareness and some clarity around where they fall. Something that is a, you know, deep seated secret for you, maybe something that somebody else is willing to openly share, they just don't see it as that big of a deal. So it's definitely about self-awareness and learning some tools to help relieve some of the pressure and drain on our batteries, as it were, that comes from holding these things in.
 
Ted Robertson  30:52
People who are attending the workshop are going to learn some things that they may not realize are draining their batteries. You're teaching them to discern what those are, and to be careful to try to avoid those. It sounds like an example to me of things that we don't realize we do, that drains us, right, instead of energizes us.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  31:10
So we use the kind of metaphor of a smartphone, right? So there are things that drain us, that are big, that we're taking a lot of energy to conceal the hard things that we're dealing with in our life. But then there's, like, the pesky background apps, there's the things that are always running in the background of our lives that drain our energy without us really even noticing it. You know, so for me as an officer, but also as a mom and a spouse, some of the things that are always draining my batteries are my to-do list, the laundry app, maybe social media apps. Sometimes I've probably spend way too much time reading the news these days. That's kind of always on for me. We have these big things that are draining our batteries, but then we have these like small things that are constantly going on, right? So Task Force Hope is about recognizing what those things are for us and then making a commitment to ourselves to make this space and time to recover.
 
Ted Robertson  32:09
So that brings us to a really unique place. You kind of function at the intersection of character, leadership and development pretty much every day. So how do you define character when you're responsible for shaping it across an entire Cadet Wing.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  32:24
To me, character is the essence of who they are. It is how you show up day after day. It's the habits that you have. That's why, when you do something out of character, people are able to say that. You know, we talk about building character strengths as building blocks towards certain virtues. And virtues is really excellence of character. So it's easy to talk about how to be an excellent athlete, or how to be an excellent academic, right? And that's one of our core values, is being excellent. Well, how do you have excellent character? It's really about leveraging your character strengths in a way that can lead you to be more virtuous, and that's the goal.
 
Ted Robertson  33:05
You've served, both operationally and as an instructor. Tell me how those things shape the way you think about preparing leaders not just to perform but to endure.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  33:19
What comes to mind is the importance of training and building those habits. We're, you know, in the previous question, we talked about it in terms of character. You know, you can, you can use any kind of training. It's about building readiness, right? And being able to build those habits so that when you are faced with a challenge, you have a way to work through the challenge, right? That really came out for me, both operationally and as an instructor. So operationally, you rely on your training to get your job done, and then as an instructor, you're helping others build those habits so that one day when your students are faced with challenges, they can rely on their training as well.
 
Ted Robertson  34:01
We've talked a bit about your experiences and how they shape the way you think about preparing leaders, not just to perform but to endure. And now let's bring it right down to the direct connection between Task Force Hope and why you are here talking about this program to attendees at NCLS. When we talk about Task Force Hope, it's a program that is really designed to prepare leaders to navigate crisis and recover from both emotional and moral injury. What can you tell me about a gap that a workshop like this fills, that traditional leadership education sometimes or often misses?
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  34:38
Task Force Hope is preventative in nature. It's training to prevent people from letting their burdens get the best of them so that they can show up. They have the tools to show up fully charged when stuff hits the van. And not only that they do that for themselves, but then they can help their teammates or their subordinates also get there. It's self-awareness, because we all perform self-care differently, and what you need to recharge your batteries is different from the way that I would do it. So it's being intentional and having some tools to be able to identify what works for you and then how to make space in your life, and building that commitment to yourself, to make that space so that the next time that you face a crisis, you're not facing it at 10%, you're full up, you're ready to go. So it's that sustained self-care, if that's what you want to call it. And it's important to say that you know, in a 75-minute session, we're really doing our best to provide exposure to key concepts and these tools. What we hope is that people walk out with the start of something. It's not it's not the end of their work to be done.
 
Ted Robertson  35:54
How often do you hear the question, “Why didn't I hear this earlier in my career?”
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  36:00
Every workshop. Last year, after the workshop, we had a 1970-something graduate say that exact thing. For me personally, I had four people say something, you know, “Hey, I was a cadet here in ’90-something, ’80-something, 2000-something. And, you know, I really wish that I would have had this earlier.” So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to bring it as early as we can.
 
Ted Robertson  36:26
OK, so our last question of our visit, if cadets take just one lesson from Task Force Hope and NCLs this year, what is your hope for that lesson to be?
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  36:39
My hope is that they're worth it. No problem is too big or too small to be dealt with, and like we talked about earlier, I think often people keep things to themselves because they feel like they shouldn't bother others, or there's their supervisors or their teammates with what's going on in their lives. And that's a drain. Like, that's a drain on the system. It eats up your energy, right? But our cadets are worth it. Whatever they're dealing with, big or small, is worthy of being addressed. I hope that's the takeaway, and that we all deal with things, right? We don't always know what other people are dealing with.
 
Ted Robertson  37:22
Maj. Holmes. Thank you for the work you're doing to prepare future leaders, not just to lead in moments of clarity, but to stand firm in moments of crisis. We appreciate you being here.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  37:32Thanks, Ted.
 
Ted Robertson  37:33
That focus on preservation, resilience and moral courage brings us to our next conversation, one shaped by combat, captivity and a life of service under the most demanding conditions. Coming up next, my conversation with Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier. Gen. Mechenbier, welcome to the podcast. It is a huge honor having you here, sir.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 37:56
I hope you feel that way in a half hour so well,
 
Ted Robertson  37:59Well, the conversation does promise to be interesting, because your life is… interesting. That was a pregnant pause, sir.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:07
Yeah, I've enjoyed it. It's different.
 
Ted Robertson  38:11
Just to sort of frame things, you retired as a major general, and what year was that, sir,
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:15
2004
 
Ted Robertson  38:16
And you were USAFA Class of ’64. You're a Vietnam-era pilot, having flown F-4s, you were shot down on your 113th combat mission, but that was you also your 80th over North Vietnam. OK, prisoner of war. Then for almost those entire six years following that, being shot down. You come with 3,600 flying hours across lots of different aircraft.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  38:42
I was privileged fly either for primary capability or for familiarization with 43 different airplanes.
 
Ted Robertson  38:49
And now you describe yourself as a lifelong advocate for veterans and public service.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  38:56
Well, yeah, I mean, I go to a couple prisons in Ohio, and “work with” is probably overstating my role. Veterans who are incarcerated for long periods of time. But my role is just to go there, spend some time, shoot the breeze with them, no agenda, no desired learning objective and let them know that somebody outside knows that they're there.
 
Ted Robertson  39:19
What I want to do is spend some time in your background. All right, I want to start with combat and captivity and how that tests leadership in its most extreme forms. And this is in course in keeping with the theme of NCLS here, what did character mean to you when circumstances were entirely beyond your control?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  39:38
The Vietnamese kept us in small groups of one and two or three guys. I mean, we never really until near the end and later on when we got a little organization. But it got very down, very personal, when at one time, I was in a cell with four guys, three Class of 1964 Air Force Academy graduates and one poor Oklahoma State University graduate, and amongst the four of us, we had a senior ranking officer. And of course, you got the same rank, you go alphabetical. And so we made Ron Bliss the senior ranking officer in our room. We had a communication system. We had guidelines that, you know, which were basically consistent with the code of conduct. You know, name, rank, serial number, date of birth, don't answer further questions. Keep faith with your fellow positions. That was the key. Keep faith. Never do anything that you'd be embarrassed to tell somebody you did.
 
Ted Robertson  40:34
What you're explaining is how different leadership looks, and even how you describe it, how different it is from command. So now it comes down to trust and accountability and courage, and how do those show up in those conditions?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  40:51
It was really a matter of, we always knew we were still in the fight. That was one thing that was with us, and so you just kind of conducted yourself with, OK, I'm not going to let myself be used. Now, we also knew that the more you resisted pushed back, the less likely they were to make you go meet an antiwar delegation or write a confession or do something else like that. So they tend to pick on, if you will, the low-hanging fruit or the easier guy to get to. So we always wanted to set the bar just a little bit out of their reach.
 
Ted Robertson  41:25
All right, having gone through all of that, it really can change people quite profoundly. So when you look back at it, what leadership lessons stayed with you long after you got out of captivity?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  41:39
In the movie Return of Honor. Capt. Mike McGrath, Navy guy, describes the guys in their ability to resist torture and do things. And that's what you learn. Everybody's got a breaking point. If mine's here and somebody else's is there, that doesn't make me better or worse than them. So you learn to appreciate the talents and the weaknesses. If you know the foibles, the cracks in everybody around you and not to exploit them, but to understand them, and then to be the kind of leader that that they need.
 
Ted Robertson  42:12
Sir, one of the recurring themes when you're discussing leadership with leaders right is knowing something about each of your people so that you can relate to them in a way that that works for them and motivates them.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  42:23
Yeah. Mark Welch, who's also a graduate and he is a chief of staff of the Air Force, always had a saying: “If you don't know what's going on, it's because you didn't ask.”
 
Ted Robertson  42:32
Now we're going to roll all that into your long journey between captivity and your visit here to NCLS this year. When you're speaking to the cadets at this year's event, what's your main hope? What do you hope they understand about courage before they even ever face combat?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  42:54
Well, courage is a reaction to a clear and present threat. Nobody knows how they're gonna — know he's gonna say, OK, I'm gonna go to Vietnam and I want to get shot down, and when the Vietnamese capture me, I'm going to give them a middle finger and I'm going to be the meanest bad ass and hardest-to-break prisoner. Yeah, it's how you respond to the to the immediate perception of bodily harm or being used or something else like that. So courage is, yeah, it just happens. It's not something that you can put in a package and say, “OK, I've got courage.” It's how you respond to the situation, because you might respond quite differently than what you think.
 
Ted Robertson  43:35
And I have to say, you presented your story and you delivered your message in kind of a unique way. You drew from some contemporary references, specifically three clips from a movie that you like, that I was curious. How did you sum up your entire life in three movie clips from Madagascar? How did you do that?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  43:57
Well, the three movie clips — when I watched the movie, I was looking at it, I have got two favorite movies. Madagascar is one, and the other is a Kelsey Grammer movie, Down Periscope. I mean, I think that is a perfect study in in leadership. But in the movie Madagascar, the premise was penguins can't fly, but yet it opens up with them applying resource, innovation imagination, and they eventually get this airplane to fly. OK, great. Success. Well, like everything else in life, things go wrong, and you got to have, No. 1, a backup plan, an exit ramp or a control mechanism for the disaster that's pending. So that's the second movie clip we saw. And then the third one was towards the end of the movie, when the crash landing has happened and the skipper asks for an accounting, and he's told that all passengers are accounted for, except two. And he says, that's the number I can live with. And the message there is, you go through life — you're going to have successes, but you're going to have failures, and failure has a cost, and it's not always pleasant, but that's OK, because that's life.
 
Ted Robertson  45:15
How do you explain how leaders can prepare themselves morally and mentally for moments they can't predict or control.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  45:25
Watch movies like Madagascar and Down Periscope. You know, there's a breadth of unintentional, if you will, guidance on how to be a leader, if you know where to look or if you're looking for it. I mean, that's part of the whole progress program at the Academy. Nobody's going to say, OK, here's a scenario, lead these resources to a proper conclusion. It's kind of like, OK, here's the situation. What do we do? What can we do? What can't we do? It's like, in my presentation, I talk about being able to run across a pasture in nine seconds, in 10 seconds, but if the bull can do it, you're in trouble. So you got to realign your thinking, you got to realign your goals and you got to realign the application of resources. So that's the leadership part, right there. It's a realization of what you can and what you can't do. It's a realization of what you, your people, your resources, can and can't do. It's a realization of what the technology you have at your disposal to do your mission can and can't do. So it's all about workarounds and being flexible. And then the other thing is, we live in a world that just seems to be everything's got a prescription and a protocol on exactly how to do everything. Doesn't work that way. You got to be able to go left and right. You got to be able to be a little imaginative.
 
Ted Robertson  46:42
What parting thought did you leave the cadets with?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  46:45
That failure is part of life. It's not death. And I'm part of an organization called American 300 — we go around and talk to young enlisted people and all the services to get them to understand that failure is a learning opportunity. It's not a dagger in the heart, and don't be afraid or ashamed to try, because if you don't, you'll never know what your true potential is. So with the cadets, we close with that last part from the movie Madagascar that basically said, OK, success comes with a price. Be aware and accept it.
 
Ted Robertson  47:23
All right, we've got to close it out here, but recap, if you would one more time that message that you want cadets to leave here with from having heard you speak.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  47:32
You are now a living, breathing, viable, productive part of our United States Air Force. You bring talents that are unique. Apply them, but understand that they're all very transitory, and you have part of a larger community. If you stick with a community rather than the “I did,” “I want,” I have,” you'll go a long way.
 
Ted Robertson  47:54
All right, and stepping outside of that very briefly for your final thoughts, what would you like to leave listeners with today.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  48:01
Be proud of the young men and women who are in our military now, not just those at the Air Force Academy. You know, our whole military structure has changed over the years. You know, it's a dynamic world. You got to be flexible and embrace change. We're so reluctant to change. Change is fine, except when you try to change me, is the old saying, but we all have to change. We have to be part of the world in which we live.
 
 
Ted Robertson  48:26
Gen. Mechenbier, I want to thank you from all of us for being here sharing those leadership lessons of yours and a lifetime of service that will continue to shape others — future leaders — for a very, very long time to come. We appreciate you very much.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  48:43
Thank you much.
 
Ted Robertson  48:44
Our final conversation brings us to leadership at the strategic level, where decisions affect institutions, alliances and the nation itself. Capt. Charles Plumb, welcome to the podcast today, sir.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  48:56
Thanks, Ted. Appreciate being here.
 
Ted Robertson  48:59
It is a privilege to have you. You retired as a Navy captain in 1991 and you have not slowed down, not one inch since. We're going to talk a little bit about the work that you're doing in some very interesting spaces. And what informs all of that. Naval Academy, Class of ’64.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:15
Yep, the Great Class of ’64.
 
 
Ted Robertson  49:17
The great —that's how you express class pride?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:20
Everybody knows the Great Class of ’64.
 
Ted Robertson  49:23
So you are an Annapolis man.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:25
I am, in fact.
 
Ted Robertson  49:26
No doubt. And a pilot. You flew F-4 Phantoms, and you are a Vietnam-era pilot. You spent most of your time over North Vietnam. Sometimes you got sent to South Vietnam, depending on what was going on. But you said that you have flown 74 combat missions.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:45
Actually 74 and a half, Ted. I have one more takeoff and I have landings.
 
Ted Robertson  49:50
We should remember that, because it's a very important part of your life we haven't talked about yet. Since you got out of captivity, and then you retired a few years later, you became a published author and a speaker, and as such, you have been to every state, several countries, 5,000 presentations you've delivered in the leadership and character development space. Is there any reason you should not be here at NCLS?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:24
Well, I appreciate that. You know, this is a great symposium, and I'm really proud to contribute to it.
 
Ted Robertson  50:32
Captain, you are a former POW.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:36
Yes, I was shot down on my 75th mission and captured, tortured and spent the next 2,103 days in communist prison camps.
 
Ted Robertson  50:49
You said you got moved around a lot.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:52We did. I was in six different camps, and some of those camps more than once. We never really understood why. We kind of suspected that they wanted to try to deny any fraternization with their guards, and they wanted to keep us on our toes, because they recognized that being military guys, we were going to have leadership, and we were going to have organization and community and we were going to organize, to fight them, and they didn't want that. So they moved us around and kind of shuffled us up, which didn't work. We always had a military organization in every camp that I ever went to.
 
Ted Robertson  51:31
You found ways to support each other. You found ways to have a leadership structure, even in captivity.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  51:39
We were all fighter pilots or air crews and most of us were we, you know, we had 10 Air Force Academy grads from ’64 in five Naval Academy grads from ’64 and so we had in a lot of other academy grads. I don't remember how many, but probably 70 total academy grads. And so, you know, we were, we were dedicated. We were lifers. We were, you know, we were very focused guys, which helped out a lot that we knew a lot about military leadership.
 
Ted Robertson  52:11
You grew up in the Midwest, and you married a Midwestern girl.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  52:15
I did, my high school sweetheart the day after I graduated from Annapolis, we got married in the chapel, and my buddies were holding up their swords as we came out of the chapel. So it was a beautiful day.
 
Ted Robertson  52:27
Let's go back to how you found your way to the Naval Academy.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  52:32
I was a farm kid from Kansas. Never seen the ocean, never been out of the four states of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri. Never been in an airplane, and I needed an education. Found that the Naval Academy offered me an education.
 
Ted Robertson  52:50
Outside of Air Force Academy circles, you probably already know that we think of, you know, salty sea dog sailors when we think of people going in the Navy, but you chose aviation.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  53:02
I did. As a kid, I would see these Piper Cubs fly over and I was fascinated by flight, and wondered if I'd ever be able to ride in an airplane. That was my thought when I was a kid. I didn't have any hopes of ever being a pilot, you know, let alone a fighter pilot. That was, I was out of the realm. Nobody, as I grew up, ever told me that I could do that, or I should do that, or, you know, it would be a hope of mine to ever pilot an airplane. But I went to the Naval Academy and found out that was one of the options, and I took advantage of that option.
 
Ted Robertson  53:43
Yeah, and it led you, of course, to over North Vietnam, and the rest is that part of your history
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  53:51
Launched on the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk on my wife's birthday, the 5th of November, wave goodbye to her, and promised her I'd be back in eight months. I didn't make it.
 
Ted Robertson  54:04
Hard. Very hard story to hear. Let's talk about all of that informing your presentation now, again, 5,000 of these delivered in the leadership and character development space, but you talk a lot about, in your presentation — and you keynoted here at NCLS — the mental game side of this, the integrity, the choices that you have to make, and character that sort of frames all of that.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  54:38
My message to the cadets, and really to most of my audiences, is around challenge and adversity. And I tell the cadets that they work awfully hard trying to get a degree. They study, they go to computers, they read books all to get a degree. And what I point out to them is that more important than the degree that they will get from the Air Force Academy is a character that they build while they are here. That the integrity first, you know, is part of their motto. And if, in fact, they can learn and live that integrity, if they can learn and live the commitment that they have, if they can learn in and live these kind of ethereal things, the things that you can't measure, things you can't define, the things that, you know, that crop up in your in your mind, in the back of your mind, are more important than the lessons they learn from a computer. And so that's kind of my message.
 
Ted Robertson  55:49
You know, we're in a leadership laboratory here. The art and the science is character development. And you're talking about a kind of character that leads people to make good decisions and make those decisions with integrity in mind. How did that play into your captivity and getting you through that?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  56:09
You know, of course, I studied leadership at the Naval Academy, and I think that my period of experience more than teaching me anything, it validated what I had learned. And the whole idea — and I love the fact that this is called, you know, the Character and Leadership Symposium, because lots of times you see leadership without character, that's a negative kind of leadership. And if a leader does not have character, he doesn't last very long, and he's not very effective. And so if you can keep your character up front, the leadership can follow easily. And that's pretty much what we had in the prison camps. Several of the qualities of leadership that I promote are the things that almost came natural in a prison camp. First of all, we had to find a focus, a reason. We had to find, you know — and that was developed by our leadership in the prison camp. Return with honor — that was our motto, return with honor. And we all rallied around that.
 
Ted Robertson  57:22
So all of that said, you're standing here in front of a really big group of people as a keynote speaker, lot of cadets, mostly cadets, yeah.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  57:31
Now there were cadets. I'm speaking on a panel with Ed Mechenbier, my good buddy, and we're on a panel with mostly cadets. The first presentation, the keynote was by invitation only. So there were a number of civilians in the audience, number of cadets. There were Naval Academy midshipmen in my audience today. And we had ROTC people, and, you know, from all over the country. So it was quite a wide audience.
 
Ted Robertson  58:04
Quite a wide audience. And so if we were just focusing on what you leave with cadets, what do you want them to take away from their experience today?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  58:15
I hope they understand my message, that more important than the degree that they graduate with, is the character that they graduate with, and the importance of the integrity that that they learned here, because that was vital in the prison camp, is integrity. We had to have each other's back, and when we when we finally were released, we refused to be released until all the sick, injured and enlisted men had gone home, and it was a question of integrity, is a question that this is the right thing to do. It's not the easy thing to do. Largely, the integrity thing to do is not the easiest thing to do, and that's what I wanted to leave with the cadets. In addition, I want them to know that regardless of what situation they're in, they still have a choice, and their choice is the way they respond to the surrounding adversity situation that they're in.
 
Ted Robertson  59:21
An Annapolis grad of ’64, Midwest kid from Kansas who makes it into the cockpit, and like you said, 74 and a half flights, then some time in captivity, then to a published author with thousands of presentations all over the country, and some in in other countries. What final thoughts would you like to leave today, sir?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  59:47
Well, you know, I think I've already told you, you know, you're a great interviewer, Ted, and I appreciate your questions. I think, finally, this whole idea of self-determination and I think that we all, and not just the cadets, but graduates and families and business people, families. You know that we all have choices, and sometimes when we deny the choice and give up that ability to make our life better for ourselves. And you know, we do it sometimes even when we’re not even thinking about it. It's just automatic to blame somebody else for the problem, and in doing so, we give away that choice.
 
Ted Robertson  1:00:34
Don't give away the choice. Yeah, build that character and stick by your integrity all the time. Capt. J. Charles Plumb, what a privilege it is to meet you, sir. Glad that you're here at NCLs and keynoting like you are, and I do hope that our paths cross again.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  1:00:52
Ted, thank you very much. I appreciate your willingness to tell my story. Thanks for that.
 
Ted Robertson  1:00:57
You're welcome, sir. Thank you. Ted Robertson CloseAs we've heard throughout these conversations, courage isn't a single moment. It's a lifelong practice, from cadets just beginning their journey to leaders shaped by combat and crisis to senior commanders responsible for forces and futures. Character is tested when certainty disappears and it's revealed by how we choose to lead. That's the challenge of the National Character and Leadership Symposium, and it's a challenge that extends far beyond these walls. I'm Ted Robertson, thank you for joining me for our Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of the 33rd National Character and Leadership Symposium.
This podcast was recorded on Saturday, Feb. 21, 2026.
 
 
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 

In our Season 4 retrospective, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 and Wyatt Hornsby, the Association & Foundation’s senior vice president of marketing and communications, revisit the clips that stuck with them.
 - “Mind. Body. Spirit.” - “What can I do for others?” - “Be humble. Be credible. Be approachable.”
These aren’t just soundbites. They’re leadership gold.
This episode will remind you why these conversations matter.
TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE
Lead from mind, body, and spirit
Sustainable leadership requires caring for mental clarity, physical stamina, and spiritual/emotional grounding.
Leadership is a daily practice, not a position
Being a leader shows up in consistent habits and choices, not just in moments when you have the spotlight or a title.
Mental health fuels clarity and creativity
Protecting your mindset and mental health enables focus, problem-solving, and innovation.
Physical readiness underpins reliability
Long hours and high-demand environments require physical energy and stamina so you can show up for others when it counts.
Spiritual/emotional health anchors your “why”
Knowing your purpose and values helps you make grounded decisions and stay steady in pressure or uncertainty.
Shift from “Why me?” to “What can I do for others?”
Transform challenges by asking how you can serve your team and community, rather than focusing on personal hardship.
Selfless leadership unlocks others’ potential
When you lead by example and create opportunities for others to excel, people gain confidence and stretch toward their own “superhero” potential.
Humility, credibility, and approachability are core leadership traits
Effective leaders are humble about their limits, credible in what they say and do, and approachable enough that others feel safe coming to them.
Trust and respect are earned, not assumed
Especially with large teams and many colleagues, you must earn trust and respect through consistent behavior, not rely on rank or title.
Leadership is ongoing presence and intention
Leadership “doesn’t start with a title”; it’s about showing up with intention and care, being present when it matters, and putting others first over the long term.
 
CHAPTERS0:00:07 Introduction & Episode Setup
0:00:54 Intro – Leadership as Daily Practice (Tanji Johnson Bridgeman)
0:01:19 Mind, Body, Spirit in Leadership
0:02:06 Reflection on Intentional, Holistic Leadership
0:02:39Intro – Selfless Leadership & Inspiring Others (Dave Harden)
0:02:59 Transforming Challenges & Leading Selflessly
0:03:26 Reflection on Timeless, Presence-Based Leadership
0:04:03 Intro – Humble, Credible, Approachable (Rep. August Pfluger)
0:04:30 Core Leadership Tenets in Public Service
0:05:37 Reflection on Trust, Respect, and Credibility
0:06:13 Season Four Recap & Invitation to Explore Past Episodes
0:06:57 New Biweekly, Year-Round Schedule Announcement
0:07:45 Closing – Core Leadership Themes & Thank-Yous
 
 
 
ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS
AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS
 
 
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz.
Wyatt Hornsby: 0:10And I'm Wyatt Hornsby, and today we're hitting pause for a moment and we're going to look back.Naviere Walkewicz 0:14Yes, this episode is our Season 4 retrospective. We're revisiting some of the leadership moments that really stayed with us long after the microphones were turned off.Wyatt Hornsby 0:25We went back through the season and selected three clips among many amazing ones, each from a guest who brought a different perspective on leadership, but all with a common thread: responsibility to people.Naviere Walkewicz 0:36Absolutely. We're going to play each clip, Wyatt and I will react to it and talk about why those still matter.Wyatt Hornsby 0:43And at the end of the show, we'll also look ahead. We've got upcoming guests to share and a couple of important changes and exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published going forward.Naviere Walkewicz 0:54Absolutely. So let's get started. All right. Our first clip comes from Tanji Johnson Bridgeman, Class of ’97. Her episode stood out because of how she directly spoke about leadership being a daily practice. Now as you listen, pay close attention to how she talks about the health of your mind, body and spirit, and how those together form the foundation of great leaders.Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 1:19Mind, body, spirit. Why is that important? Because in anything, any philosophies that we adopt, we have to really see where it's important. So when you think of what is an officer — what is a leader going to have to do with their mind? This is where they have to have clarity. It's going to help with focus, creativity, to innovate new solutions. And so we need to be able to prioritize our mindset and our mental health. And then there's the body, right? So a lot of us are going to be going on deployments. We're going to work long hours. Our body is what's going to give us the fuel and energy and the stamina to get through a day. It's literally bringing our energy. And then you think about the spirit, and this one is really special, and it's probably the most neglected. So when you think about the spirit, this is where you're going to anchor in with your emotional health. What is your purpose? What is your why?Wyatt Hornsby 2:06That is such a great insight. And what really resonates with me, Naviere, is Tanji’s emphasis on health and wellness is a critical component of leading others — that integration.Naviere Walkewicz 2:16Yes, well, you know, we both really take our health and wellness seriously, but I think to the level that she really talked about it being — she really had this quiet confidence, and I think that also spoke volumes, right? It's not just about being physical, but being in your mind, body and spirit really well. And so I think that when we think about how that plays into being really intentional, people will experience you differently.Wyatt Hornsby 2:39All right. Our second clip comes from Dave Harden, Class of ’95. Dave brought perspective shaped by high-stakes environments where leadership is about inspiring others. Listen for how he connects looking outside of yourself, for your team with leading them to their own greatness.
Dave Harden 2:55If we can transform, if we can pause, if we can look up right and see the faith and the what if and not say, say, Why is this happening to me? But what can I do with it? What can I do for others? How can I connect in a meaningful way? You will transform your life. You'll transform your leadership, and you'll transform the people around you, because they'll be inspired to be superheroes in their own right. Naviere Walkewicz 3:26Wow. That was a very powerful clip. And I just remember his conversation being really powerful, because there were so many moments where we talked about, you know, when you're really leaning into the fire. But this particular clip — what spoke to me, Wyatt — he was saying, if you lead selflessly and by example, looking for others to have opportunities to excel, they actually find the confidence in what they're able to give and do and striving for more. Thought that's really powerful, for sure.Wyatt Hornsby 3:51Agree Naviere, and that's really timeless leadership. Whether you're leading in uniform or outside of it, people trust leaders who are present when it counts. And Dave really personifies that.Naviere Walkewicz 4:03Yes, our third clip comes from Congressman August Pfluger, Class of 2000. When we spoke to the congressman, he brought a unique perspective, one shaped by military service and now public service. His leadership journey didn't end when he took off the uniform. It simply evolved. And this clip reflects that sense of responsibility to those one leads. To do that successfully means establishing credibility. Let's roll the clip.August Pfluger 4:30Growing up professionally in a fighter squadron, there were three tenants that they, even though I didn't go to weapons school, they teach you: that's to be humble, credible and approachable. I mean, think about that. Those are the core tenants of who our lead warriors are. And that is not what you see. When you think of politicians. You think, Well, they're braggadocios and annoying, and, you know, OK, I hope I don't fall into that category. I need to do some self-reflection every once while, but, but I've got a staff of almost 40 people, and I have 434 other colleagues that you have to work with. So you better believe that you've got to be humble, because there are people who are better than you in every category, you better believe that being approachable in this job is really important, because people are going to come to you and they're going to need something, or you're going to need something from them, and if you don't have the credibility of what you're talking about or what you're leading, then you're not going to get anything done.Wyatt Hornsby 5:37Great insights from the congressman. And that's really one of those leadership truths that carries across every domain for him now in Washington, DC, and the congressman is reminding us that leadership doesn't start with a title.Naviere Walkewicz 5:50I really appreciate that. I think specifically when he said he had over 400 colleagues, that really stood out to me about not leading with the title, but really leading with your virtue and being there. And so I love the fact that he talked about earning trust respect, and then with that comes credibility.Wyatt Hornsby 6:06And being approachable.Naviere Walkewicz 6:08Being approachable. Yes, we see him doing that all the time.Wyatt Hornsby 6:13All right, so let's look ahead. As we close out this retrospective, we also want to take a moment to look forward, but before we look forward, let me just say that these were three conversations among so many great ones from Season 4. Naviere Walkewicz 6:26It was hard to choose, wasn't it wise? Wyatt Hornsby 6:28It was so hard to choose. And we encourage you, if you have not listened to all of Season 4, check them out, because there's so many wonderful guests here. Thanks for the great job you did hosting those conversations.Naviere Walkewicz 6:40Always my pleasure. Always my pleasure. In fact, gosh, going back, I think, all the way to Season 1, there's always someone, a guest, that our graduates and other listeners, and gosh, our viewers can really resonate with. There's some wonderful leadership lesson down there.Wyatt Hornsby 6:53And easy to find. You can you can get our episodes anywhere you get your podcast.Naviere Walkewicz 6:57Yes, we have some outstanding guests coming up. These are leaders from across different fields, and we're excited to bring them into our Long Blue Leadership conversation.Wyatt Hornsby 7:06And we also want to share a couple of important and very exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published.Naviere Walkewicz 7:12Yes, we are moving away from seasons, and we're shifting to biweekly, year-round release schedule. This is so you get Long Blue Leadership all the time, year round. Right to you where you are.Wyatt Hornsby 7:23Very exciting, and that means more consistent leadership conversations. No long breaks, just ongoing dialog.Naviere Walkewicz 7:30Absolutely you just go to longblueleadership.org to find your Long Blue Leadership conversation. So going forward, we'll publish our annual retrospective, released each December, a dedicated moment where white and I come together to reflect on the leadership lessons we heard throughout the year.Wyatt Hornsby 7:45Very exciting, and Season Four reminded us that leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about showing up with intention and care, being humble, being approachable and putting others first.Naviere Walkewicz 7:57We're grateful to every guest who shared their perspective and to you for being part of this incredible community.Wyatt Hornsby 8:03And Naviere, while we're at it too, let's go ahead and thank Ted, our incredible producer of Long Blue Leadership.Naviere Walkewicz 8:09Thanks, Ted. We appreciate you so much. This doesn't happen without your magic. So thank you very much.Wyatt Hornsby 8:13Yeah, thank you, Ted and everybody. Thanks for listening. I'm Wyatt Hornsby.Naviere Walkewicz 8:18And I'm Naviere Walkewicz. We'll see you on Long Blue Leadership.
 
 
KEYWORDS
Mind, body, spirit, leadership, daily practice, mental health, physical health, spiritual health, wellness, emotional health, purpose, why, selfless leadership, service, inspiring others, transformation, high-stakes environments, team, connection, trust, respect, credibility, humility, humble, approachable, virtuous leadership, public service, military service, fighter squadron, colleagues, responsibility to people, presence, intention, care, confidence, long blue leadership, podcast, retrospective, season four, biweekly schedule, year-round release, annual retrospective, leadership lessons, graduates, listeners, community
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation