2026

A devastating injury nearly ended her dreams of becoming a pilot. SUMMARYLt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay ’98, Ph.D., says the accident was merely the first chapter in a career defined by perseverance, service and leadership. Listen to this inspiring story on Long Blue Leadership.
 
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DR. MACAULAY'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
1. Choose your hard: You don’t escape difficulty in life or leadership, you intentionally pick the hard path that aligns with who you want to become.
2. Let vision — not other people’s verdicts — define you by holding a clear internal picture of your future that outvotes external “no’s.”
3. Train your mind to eliminate the noise — unhelpful thoughts, doubts and narratives — to stay focused on what truly serves your goals.
4. Aim to harmonize your roles (leader, parent, partner, professional) across seasons of life rather than chasing a perfect work-life balance.
5. Be the calm in the storm by regulating your own stress response so your presence stabilizes your team instead of amplifying chaos.
6. Stop glorifying exhaustion and competitive stress and instead model healthy, high performance built on sleep, focus and quality over quantity.
7. Use simple daily mental skills — like mindfulness reps, the waterfall technique and a mindful minute at transitions — to protect clarity and compassion.
8. Replace “How are you doing?” with “What’s going well for you today?” to surface real insight, build hope and better detect those sliding toward hopelessness.
9. Practice present, personalized recognition, because small, intentional gestures of appreciation can forge lifelong trust and loyalty.
10. When you hit a crucible moment and feel unsure you’re ready, choose to commit and let the challenge grow you rather than hesitate.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Introduction, Jannell’s Academy injury, broken femur, and redefining “no” as possibility00:05:54 – Her father’s influence, early visions of command and flight, and limitless expectations00:09:26 – “Choose your hard,” setting vision, eliminating noise, and turning barriers into options00:12:22 – Air Force career breadth, strategy path, and introduction to the Syria chemical weapons mission00:16:31 – Saying yes to Syria as a mother, family conversations, and the weight of the mission00:19:00 – Syria as a crucible moment, inner critic vs external “no,” and committing through discomfort00:22:17 – Identity beyond the uniform, family strain, rare eye disease, and pivot to mental performance work00:27:06 – What stress really is, burnout, competitive stress culture, and leaders as calm vs storm00:36:35 – Mindful leadership in action: no-email Fridays, recognition calls, and the “waterfall” technique00:52:16 – “Breathless,” stories of Syrian mothers, legacy, and final advice to young leaders
 
ABOUT DR. MACAULAY
BIO
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. ’98, is a combat veteran who served 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, as a pilot, commander, special operations consultant, international diplomat and professionalism instructor. With her innovative leadership style, she was the first leader to introduce mindfulness as a proactive performance strategy within the United States military. Throughout her career she gained experience leading and building teams, designing and implementing complex organizational change, and creating innovative solutions to optimize the human weapon system when operating in rugged and high-stress environments. With over 3,000 flying hours in the C-21, C-130 and KC-10, and extensive education in performance and wellness, she specializes in high-performance under stress with a holistic approach. Dr. MacAulay currently serves as a leadership and human performance consultant for the Department of War, government sector and corporate America. She is the co-founder of Warrior’s Edge, a high-performance mindset training program she developed with Pete Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks and high-performance sports psychologist, Dr. Michael Gervais. Dr. MacAulay is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, has a master’s degree in kinesiology from Pennsylvania State University, and a Ph.D. with work in the field of strategic health and human performance. She is a certified wellness educator, yoga instructor and holds a certificate in plant-based nutrition. Dr. MacAulay is a TEDx speaker, military spouse and mother of two.
 
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Guest, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. ’98  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 
 
Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Leadership begins the moment someone tells you what you can't do, and you decide they don't get to write the rest of your story. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Well, Dr. Janelle McCauley, Class of ’98 welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is an amazing time for us. Excited to have you.
 
Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:19Thank you so much for having me. I know this has been a long time coming, so I'm excited to be here with you to start a conversation.
 
Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:24Absolutely, you know, I do want to highlight some of the things you've done. It's probably true that the list is shorter for me to say what you haven't done, but pilot, combat veteran, you're a leadership strategist, you're a mother, a wife, author — we'll talk about that later. You know, also really getting into the space of a human performance specialist, a commander, all of these things that you've done and, gosh, 20 years in the Air Force, and now having been out, so excited to talk today.Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:51Thank you so much for that amazing introduction. I don't know if I could live up to even what you just said, in some ways. But yeah, I just would love to share with your listeners how amazing the Air Force Academy can be for the potential and the possibilities for someone's future.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:07Absolutely, so let's actually jump into a time early in your cadet days, so we'll tie it right to the Air Force Academy. There was a moment in time where you literally broke your femur. I'm curious, did it break your dreams too, of being a cadet at the time?
Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:21It almost did. And there's a story to that, so I'll go into that a little bit. So, during basic training, I developed a stress fracture. You know, running in combat boots, especially the old black version that we used to run in.
Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:35Yes, I remember.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:36Not a good thing for your body. And so I had developed this pain in my right quad to the point where I could not even stand on my right leg to put my left pant leg on, during, you know, as you're rushing to — banging on the doors, we’ll be dressed, like, “Open the doors, you will be dressed,” yeah, and I would be, you know, Welcome to the Jungleplaying —
 
Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:55I remember that.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:56I'm putting up my pants and I'm in pain, and my roommate's like, “What is happening?” Like, “You need to go to the doctor,” and I refused to, at first, of course, right? Push through it, right? And then when I finally went, they were like, “Here's the Ace bandage and some vitamin M, you know, Motrin. And, of course, I didn't know anything different, so I kept going. And then it was three days after basic training had finished, and I was at cheerleading practice, and I was doing a back flip, and my femur, like, literally snapped in half. It sounded like a tree branch. It was — I just collapsed to the floor, and this was before we had cell phones, right? So, if you can imagine, I'm 17 years old, so I hadn't turned 18 yet, and so they couldn't give me any pain medication, you know. The emergency — the ambulances rushing into the emergency room at the Academy hospital, which was not equipped to deal with what just happened to me. So, they sent me up to the Army hospital in Denver at the time, was Fitzsimmons. They couldn't understand why a 17-year-old’s femur would just snap, and no one wanted to really address the fact that maybe it was a stress fracture at the time, so they actually told me I had cancer. So, they did — a bone type, a bone type of cancer, and so they did a biopsy on the bone. I lived in traction for 10 days while all my classmates were continuing on with their freshman year. So I was about — they eventually determined that this was not cancer, this was actually stress fracture, and so the two choices they gave me was a cast from my hip to my toe for about six months, or they were going to put a rod and four screws. So a rod the length of my femur, two screws of screws on my knee, two screws in my hip. And then the doctor said, “Either way, you're never flying airplanes,”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:36And that was your dream?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 3:38That was my dream. Yes, my uncle had flown Marine 1 for President Reagan, so I grew up watching him fly helicopters in the Marine Corps, fly the President, and just he was the coolest person ever, and I wanted to be just like him. He took me to the air shows, so yes, it was a crushing moment. You know, it was something where I thought I could either let what people were telling me, the doctor saying, “You're never gonna bend your leg like this, you're never gonna be a runner, you're never gonna be a pilot,” and I could let that define me, or I could choose to define myself and what I was going to be capable of, and what the possibilities would be for me in the future. And so it was very hard for 17-, 18-year-olds to process all of this, but my dad used to give, tell me a quote, and it was, “Vision is the art of seeing the invisible,” and he would always tell me, “If you could see it for yourself, you can make it happen,” and so when it came time for being pilot qualified, I actually chose to get all of the metal removed out of my leg, just so that there was no reason for them to not allow me to go to pilot training. And so I went through that, which was —
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:49Another surgery, wow.Col. Jannell MacAulay 4:50Yes. So through all of that, I have learned that was the first experience where I learned a lot about myself and what I was, what I could focus on, how I could set a vision for myself in the future, and how I could start to eliminate the noise — that's what I call it now. I didn't have language for it at the time, but it's eliminate the noise that does not serve us in pursuit of our passions, in pursuit of our dreams. And that was what I had started to do, which it's kind of full circle that that is now my career, to help other people do it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:26I want to peel that back a little bit. There's so many things. I mean, your dad's quote: “Vision is when you can see the invisible. I think I paraphrased that a bit. One more time.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:33It's actually a Jonathan Swift quote, and that “vision is the art of seeing the invisible.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:39OK, so were you always that way growing up because you had, you know, your dad in your life sharing that kind of thought with you, or has it been a series of experiences that you've had that have kind of really made you that way?Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:54So, my dad has always been a very positive role model in the sense of eliminating barriers and dreaming big. So, when I was 7 years old, and I was a ballerina, he used to tell anyone that — and I distinctly remember this as a little girl — he would tell anyone that would listen that I was going to grow up to be a submarine warfare commander or a combat pilot.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:16Oh, wow, not a swan, no ballerina, you know —
Col. Jannell MacAulay 6:18And I would literally be in my tutu, and he would tell strangers at the grocery store, right, “This is my daughter, Jannell, she's gonna grow up and do these amazing things.” And in the ’80s, women couldn't do it, right? We weren't there yet, right? We were not allowed to — and so I didn't know that. I didn't grow up thinking that there were barriers on what I could become, and I think that's a, we have this role as parents to help our children see what's possible, because you know they can either be told where the limits are or they could be told where the possibilities exist, and I think my dad did a lot of that for me, and so that I think is a lot of my story is, like, journeying through challenge and trauma to figure out that I didn't have to listen to that voice. I could create a new one, and my dad taught me how to do that, and then I've kind of developed, what I think, are skills and training, because it's hard. It is very hard to do, and so I like that's been what my Ph.D. work and my research has been focused on, is how can I help other people who don't have maybe that those resources or their parents in their life that have taught them those things. How can I give them those tools?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:27So you were a cadet when you made the decision that you still wanted to be a pilot, and you didn't want there to be anything that said you couldn't, so you made the decision to have the metal removed from your body. As we think about decisions that we have to make in life, that could be dream-opening decisions or dream-closing decisions. How did you come to that decision? And you know what would you share to someone who's at a similar crossroads in their life? Like, how do you navigate? That's a tough decision you made.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 7:54It was a huge decision. I think part of it is understanding what are you passionate about? Who do you want to become? And not just about what you want to do, what type of person you are. That's a lot of what I think mental skills work is as well, is like, who's the person underneath, because once you figure that out, then the doing follows, right? Like, you could do anything, and I was the type of person underneath it all that did not like to be told no, right? Or I loved it when someone would say, “You can't do that,” right? It's like the challenge is what inspires me and motivates me, and so when they were saying you will not be a pilot, it was like, OK, well, then how do I get to yes? And part of that path was I had to have the metal removed. Now, there were some arguments, like, “Maybe you'll be fine.” I don't want to take the risk, right? I was like, “Nope, I don't want to give anyone an excuse to take something away from me.” That was kind of the mindset at the time.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:00So, I think that really dives into this idea of, you can, when you said yourself: The no in front of you is kind of like, “How do I turn that into a yes?” You know, clear out the noise. How did that play into your life as an Air Force officer? Because I'm sure that you came across a lot of what we’re seemingly no’s. What did that look like?Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:22So, here's, but, and this goes back to the Academy as well. I tell young people today, my greatest gift is to tell them, “Choose your hard.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34
Choose your hard.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:35Choose your hard, right. Anytime I'm asked to speak to a college, you know, high school audience, like, I do mental skills, but a lot of times the theme is “choose your hard,” because I think people are — young people are always in pursuit of the easy button, and then when they encounter hard, like, “Oh, there's got to be a better way.” The lesson is, it's all hard, right? It's all hard. So, determine what you want to do, or who you want to be more, and how you're going to get there, set the vision, and then navigate through the hard. And I would argue you need to equip yourself with the mental skills to do that, and in pursuit of that, there is going to be no right, there are going to be challenges, and part of it is accepting the challenges instead of being afraid of them, because it is through those challenges that we're actually going to accomplish great things, and we're going to get to reach our dreams and our goals. And I think that that is something I struggled with, but I found a way and a path through it. So, I think that there's always going to be no in your life, and I like to create opportunities, so then I have, I get the choice instead of just having to default to someone else telling me no, like even when I left the Academy, I applied for pilot training for grad school, for physical therapy school. Because I wanted to have opportunities, so then I got to choose which path I wanted in the future, which hard I was going to choose for myself in that moment.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:03I just — I'm thinking about you, went into the Air Force as a pilot, and you talk about choosing your hard, and you also are a mother. Let's talk about that piece. I think just navigating the and in being a mother and a leader and an Air Force officer and a combat veteran, a pilot, etc. I mean, that's a lot.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 11:23It is a lot, but I think underneath it all, the person that I am is one who not balances my life but harmonizes it and all the roles that I get to play. I think that's the greatest thing about the Air Force. You list all those things that I've done. I was watching the cadets yesterday, I was one of them, with just a bright future and so much possibility. And under one organization, I got to fly multiple airplanes, I got to go back to school numerous times, study a lot of interesting topics, from my degree in exercise physiology, from Penn State to my Ph.D. in strategy. So I got to study all these different things. I got to work in chemical weapons, which I know we're going to talk about later. I got to fly around the world, I got to lead people all under one team, right, one organization, and that is the greatest thing I think the Air Force can give people if they take those opportunities that are in front of them.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:23Yes. Well, let's, let's jump into a time — you actually brought up Syria. And so let's go there, because I think I would like to hear more about the story, and how it kind of unfolded around the chemical weapons there.Col. Jannell MacAulay 12:36So, I got sent to — it’s post… So I went to the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies — SAASS time, and my husband and I were actually the first married couple to go through SAASS together. And stayed married at the end. There was one other married concept that it were exactly that. There was one other married couple with us at the time, which is really unique, but I took — you know, through SAASS, you get a strategy focus, and you have to go do a strategy job somewhere for your staff to work. OK, and so my husband really wanted to go work at the Pentagon, so he was on the joint staff working on the Israel-Palestine desk for the chairman, and I was like, “What else can I do in DC to keep my family together, that would be interesting?” And there was this job at this little organization called the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, and DTRA, as they're known, is the brain trust for everything weapons of mass destruction, so chemical, biological, nuclear weapons, planning, research, execution of mission, that is all run out of DTRA, and so I was like, “That sounds interesting, I've never done anything in any of this space, but it'll be an easy job,” is what I thought, because I was about to have my second baby, and every time I call them, no one ever answered, like, past 3 o'clock so I'm like, “Great job.” Exactly. Like, I got my staff tour done, and I get to do something new. But I was a fish out of water, you know, like former pilots, like going into this situation, the WMDs. They gave me that job also, because no one wanted it, it was almost asking people who are experienced in the world of chemical weapons to do an impossible task, right, to handle an impossible problem. And so, at the time, nobody really wanted to put their name to it, because there was a no-win. We don't have diplomatic relations with Syria, like this — a bad civil war was happening there with an evil dictator, right? Like, how were we going to solve that problem without any type of relations? And then, you know their proxy of Russia, right? So then it's like we don't even have — we didn't have the greatest relations with them. So when August of 2013 occurred, and Assad used chemical weapons against a civilian population, 1,400 people died almost instantaneously from sarin gas. Sarin gas is one of the most awful chemicals, immediately, right? It's like paralysis. It makes your eyes water, like you become — it's a horrific way to die. And when that happened, my life changed, because all of a sudden it was like, “Oh my gosh, this is real. And, “Who's been studying this problem?” And at the time, it was you and your team. And so we kind of got thrust — I got — I went to London almost immediately to start briefing our international partners on what we had been building and studying, and luckily we had been, for the better part of six months, working on this problem. And then shortly after that, I went to the Hague, because Syria did turn over their chemical weapons to the international community, and there's a whole story behind that. Obviously, we got the Russians to help with that. And then I got sent to the Hague to work at the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons — the OPCW is who has all the inspectors and the teams who helped destroy and inspect the status of these chemical weapons — and so I got sent there to work with them and negotiate directly with the Syrians and the Russians to build the plan. And I remember my boss was like, “You have to go, and I don't know when you're coming back, we need someone over there to be running point on this mission,” and yeah, he sent me, and he said I didn't have to go writing my little kids, Andrew just turned 1, but he said, you know, “We need you, and this is what I picked you for, this mission, and this is what it's for.” So, yeah.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:31Wow, what did you — what went through your mind when you were asked to go, and you had the opportunity to make that decision? What do you mind besides the fact that you have young children?
Col. Jannell MacAulay 16:44Well, of course, like, I think, like most mothers, you never are like, “I still want to leave my kids,” right? I want to go, but I knew it was the right thing to do, because I had the ability to make an impact and a difference, because I knew the mission inside and out. I was the right person at the right time, and I was ready. I distinctly remember I went home to talk to my children. Well, Ally, she was 6 at the time, and I remember talking to her, and I said, 'Mommy has to go away to handle this mission. And what I'm going to do while I'm away is there's some really bad stuff that some really bad people have, and I'm going to work to take that stuff away from them, so that they cannot hurt anyone anymore, and she looks up, and she's, you know, crying. We're both crying, and she said, “Mommy, like a superhero?” And, I just, like, kind of nodded, and she's like, “You can go, Mommy,” like, “You can go.” And it was in that moment that I realized, like, that's why we do these jobs. It was to protect her, to model to her that, like, I can be a mom, I can be a strong mom, and I can also go do things in the service of my country and the service of my nation and it was important for me to go, and then — so that was a driving force, like knowing that my family was going to be OK and supportive, but the other driving force was thinking about the mothers in Syria who lost their children, and thinking, here I was holding mine and they will never get to hold their children anymore. I mean, hundreds of children died and were put in mass graves after this, and mothers didn't get to say goodbye, mothers didn't get to hold their children, and they suffered immensely in those moments. And so I kept thinking about the Syrian mothers, and how if I could do anything to help prevent something like that from happening again, then I had to go, right, I had to do that for them.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:44Would you say that that mission, or that part, that time in your career, was something that was so impactful in your life it changed you, or it maybe shifted your focus on things you were going to do later, or was it just at that time, this is where I need to be doing and making an impact?Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:01There's a whole story behind it, where we were dismissed, and we came up with the innovative idea of how to solve this problem by destroying these chemical weapons on a boat, ship — sorry, Navy — on a ship in the middle of the Mediterranean.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:12Was that because you were told it couldn't be done that way?
Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:14Yeah, exactly.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15Oh, interesting.Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:17We had to actually start a whisper campaign within the Pentagon, and the State Department and the National Security Council to get our idea heard. And eventually, it was.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:28So I’d like to take a little bit of time in that space of when you recognize that need to keep pushing for, right, the choosing your hard. How do you navigate that? What would you recommend to somebody who has been no, no, no, no, no, no, no. How do you work your way through that?Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:45Well, I would first ask, where is the no coming from? Because if the no is coming from your inner critic, right, I know how to get rid of that and eliminate that, and that is actually what most people — like, that is what prevents most people from doing great things. I like to say that we all have these crucible moments in our life, a moment where we're asked to do something that we really don't think we could do, right? Like, we're kind of like, “Oh my God, deep down you're like, “Oh, I don't think I'm gonna do this. Can I do this?” And in that moment, we have the opportunity to either hesitate or commit.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:24Was Syria your yes?Col. Jannell MacAulay 20:26It was very much a crucible moment. You could either hesitate and say, “Oh no, I can't do this, it's too big for me,” like, “I can't take this responsibility,” or “I can't make this decision,” or “I can't believe in my idea,” because the voice in your head says so. But sometimes it could even be real people telling you and dismissing you and saying, like, “You can't do this.” So, “Where does the no come from?” is always the first question. And if it's an internal no, you can train your mind to eliminate that noise. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:54Yes. OK, I like that, because then you — it opened up your eyes to the possibilities of who you might connect with that can then help navigate through some of that challenge.Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:03And here's the reason why we, as humans, love this: What happens when you step into discomfort, right? You're at that moment, that crucible moment, and then you decide to commit, and you step into discomfort, and you navigate through it, and you get to the other side. How does that feel?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:18Amazing.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:18Right? You throw your arms up in the air: “I’m a badass! Look at what I just did.” And even you're like, I didn't think I could do that, and I did it. That is what we live for as humans. I don't think people realize that, right? Like, we want those moments, but we don't want the discomfort that comes in getting them.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35We want to be at the other end, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:37We just want to be at the other end of that, because we love that moment where you throw — so you're not gonna throw your hands up if you're like, “Oh yeah, that was so easy.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43That's a good point.Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:44Right. You wouldn't be like, “I feel so good about it.” I'll come—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:45We wouldn’t share with people if everybody could do it.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:47Right? Exactly, so we do love those moments as humans, and I think that is part of what — I teach people how to not be afraid of discomfort, to get more opportunity and more times, more reps of those throw your hands up in the air and be a badass. Right? Like, and that's really what I think it's about, is being ready for that moment, and the more often you're ready for that moment, the more often you step into discomfort, the more throw your hands up in the moments you get..Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:18So, if humans are chasing that, and that feeling of, like, you know, commit, raise your hand, get through it, and you know, kind of bask in like that, that moment, because you loved it so much. There's probably a desire to seek more of those opportunities. How did you navigate your career after that? I know you served 20 years. Was there a point where you're like, “It's time for me to move into this space,” or did you just happen to really decide to commit to this new world of mental performance and toughness?
Col. Jannell MacAulay 22:49So, I, like, most military members, I went through a phase where I got really caught up in my identity as an Air Force officer, Air Force pilot, and it can be scary to leave that identity with the one you've always known, the one that you've been comfortable with, and even though I'm successful in — and even though I do enjoy challenge and discomfort, it was scary, right? It is scary, and I think that, well, first, part of my story was, I don't know that I was necessarily completely ready to leave, but the Air Force was making it really difficult for my family. My husband and I, he was a maintenance officer, pilot, you would think maintenance and pilot, very like cohesive, compatible. We would be able to be stationed together. We spent six years apart, and two of the last three that I was in the Air Force, we did not live together. OK, and that was hard. Our kids are getting older, and I distinctly remember I was in New Jersey, commanding a squadron. My husband was in New Mexico, commanding a group. Note to the Air Force: New Mexico and New Jersey are only close in the alphabet, right? These are not close locations, not at all. And full disclosure, I had the kids with me and an au pair, because I couldn't have done it otherwise. And I remember my husband flew home, you know? He thought he would get in at like 2 a.m. on Friday night and have sleep for 10 a.m. on Sunday morning, right? Get back. I remember we woke up our son, he was four at the time, and he looks up and he goes, “Mom, Dad, you're together,” and I was like, “No, this is not OK.” Like I don't want my children to just wake up or just be grateful when their parents are in the same room, like, that's not what I want for their childhood experience. And so I actually gave up my command six months early, and that was one of the hardest things I've ever done, because I loved being a commander, but I was at a point in my life where I realized my squadron will get another commander who cares so much about them, just like I do, but my kids only have like one mom, yeah, and they had one dad, and they needed us together. And so that was a hard decision, but it did set me like on a trajectory to think about retirement, to think about, you know, what I could do on the outside, and actually it was like divine intervention, I actually lost my pilot qualification. I have a rare eye disease, and so I've gone very blind to my central vision, like 80% blind to my right eye. So I was going to get my pilot qualification taken from me, and so I think that was God's way of saying, “It's time, this is not your path anymore. You have a different gift,” right? Flying was a great gift, leading in the Air Force was a great gift. “There's a different path for you.” And so that's when I retired, and then kind of realized there were so many people that wanted to hear this information. There were so many people that were struggling with this idea of “How do I perform? How do I manage stress? How do I get those badass, like, throw my hands up in air moments?” And I started by working with high-performing teams, the military, first responders, hospital workers, you know. Then COVID hit, and I realized everybody, everybody needs it, stress, like psychological disorders, like they're on the rise, anxiety, and if I knew how to help people, why would I keep that to myself, right? Like, it's just became something I'd be passionate about.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:29Goodness, that's probably something that people don't know just by looking at you, that you actually have an eye disease that you battle through, and I'm curious on when you started into this work, like you said, COVID hit, and you realize everybody needed this. It almost is a bit of, maybe reinvention is not the right word, but you literally change your trajectory completely, even though you had all that schooling. So, my question is, how did you actually, how do you determine who you work with, because the land is so vast of who needs it, you know? I mean, how do you actually do that?Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:06There's only one of me. It has been hard. My tribe is always the military, and even though I do spend a lot of time in the private sector working with, you know, companies from Amazon, NBC Universal, like, hotel chains, different industries — which I love — anytime a military commander reaches out and says, “We need help,” whether it's burnout, whether it's just not optimizing performance, whether it's stress-management, because if you look at the majority of DOCS today, people are burnout and stressed out, and—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:47
Oh, the organizational climate service.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:49Yes, yes, the climate service. And so most of the time, how do you, how do you manage that as a commander? Because, and here's the thing about stress and burnout: Stress is a perceived emotion. People don't think about it, but the actual what stress is, is your perception as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of a given moment. So, your brain, when you're faced with a stressor, something comes at you, and it's a stimulant, right? And your environment, whether it was like a contentious conversation, traffic, it was like a big decision, like flying a plane in combat, right, whatever that is coming at you, your brain does a like split-second calculation as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of that moment, and if your brain says, “Oh hell no,” it becomes overwhelming, it becomes stress, it be it sends you into this like spiral of like anxiety, which is like — what anxiety actually is, it's your mind's creation of what you think is going to happen in the future. It actually hasn't happened to you. Anxiety is a complete creation of the mind, right? It is. Our minds are fantastic at mental time travel. They will take us in catastrophizing about the future. I like to tell people, the majority of the catastrophes you will experience in your lifetime, they will only happen inside your head, right? They will feel very real, because our minds are fantastic at this time travel. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:11Then it turns physical. Col. Jannell MacAulay 29:12Yes, then it becomes like part of our physiology. So that's what this is, what leads to chronic stress. It leads to preventive illness that sets in, because we live our lives in this chronic state of stress, and stress again is a perception. So you could also be stimulated by that stressor, and instead of getting overwhelmed, you could say, “Bring it on.” Like, this is a challenge and I’ve got the resources to meet this moment. It’s a choice. Again, I get people, “It’s not as simple as that.” It is as simple as that, but it's hard in practice, and most of that is because we have spent 20, 30, 40 years training and wiring our brains for one direction, which is to strat for stress and survival, right. And so when I do ask people to flip it, you can't just flip it over, but these are not soft skills. This is why what I teach is very hard, because you're rewiring your brain. The good news is it's called neuroplasticity. We can rewire our brains, but it does take work and deliberate commitment, and that's why, you know, I see this all the time with spouses. They're like, “I don't see what is the big deal. My wife is freaking out,” or vice versa, like in a cockpit. Like, I'm calm, and I'm like, “Why is my co-pilot freaking out?” It's that perception, and how our brain deals stressors.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:27So, we have a lot of listeners that are leading people. How do you navigate their ability to help others through that, or is it really more dependent on the individual themselves? Like, do you need the individual to do with the work with you, or can you work with the leader and help them navigate that with their folks?Col. Jannell MacAulay 30:46You can absolutely work with the leader, and as a leader, you can role model the behaviors. So, there's some real science behind this. For example, how often is a leader creating a storm instead of being the calm in the storm, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:02More often than people realize.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:03Right, it really is, and it's almost one of those things where later can be the calm in the storm, right? But when they're not, they embody the stress that then pervades through the organization, right? Like they create that culture, and so if you have a boss that comes in every day stressed out, you have a boss that's not sleeping. I absolutely, this is what drives you crazy about leaders in the Air Force, who will say things like, “I only sleep three, four hours a night,” and like, you are bragging your suboptimal, right, from someone who studies performance and psychology, and like, you are literally telling people, “I am not ready to make decisions on your behalf or be your leader today.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:42I like how you said that: “You are bragging your suboptimal.” That is right, there, those words, that's fantastic.
Col. Jannell MacAuley 31:48Right, but we — it's part of our culture, right, to even kind of be like proud of it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:51How much did I actually, you know, keep myself up to get more done?Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:55Yes, yes. And so here's another example. I'll tell a quick story. I was a commander, sat down Monday morning meeting with my peers, and one guy says, “Oh, I worked all day Sunday on performance reports, like, I have a sick kid at home, so I only got like two hours of sleep, like barely had time to grab coffee, you know, but I'm here to be a badass.” And then the next guy goes, “Well, let me tell you something. I worked Saturday and Sunday on all my performance reports, and, oh, by the way, two sick kids at home, so I didn't sleep last night.” Wow, you know, “I didn't have time to grab coffee, but like, I'm here to be a badass.” And then they turned to me, like, expecting me to one up them on my stress. It's a culture of competitive stress that we live in. And instead, I said, “Well, my husband doesn't live with me. I had to get all my work done last week, so I can spend the weekend with my kids,” but mind you, I had the OSS, the flying squadron, so I had triple the size squadron, “but I got all my work done last week because I was more focused in my work. Then I hung out with my kids, everyone slept great, like no one's sick, we're all good. I've got my yummy green smoothie to start the day,” and instead of anyone at that table saying, “Oh my gosh, how do you do that?” The sentiment was, “Well, she's obviously not working hard now.” That's our culture, like our culture is one of, if you're not stressed, if you're not showing how busy you are, you're not valued, and actually that is not the path to performance. The path to performance is quality over quantity, it's sleeping, it's demonstrating to stay calm, it's making good decisions, it's, you know, so we as leaders can either set that tone that we're in this competitive stress, which then makes our captains not want to be us, like that's a huge problem, right? But if you're the type of leader who stays calm, if you're the type of leader that they see, “Oh, they go home every night on time, they do spend — they do leave early sometimes to go to their kids' soccer game.” That could, should be OK, but it never — I never didn't perform my job right, I was still working hard and doing the things I needed to do every day, I just was more efficient. Here's the stat: We mind-wander half our waking moments. Do you know what that means? Like, we've all read a page in the book, back to the bottom. Yep, don't know what I read. Drove in your car someplace, don't know how I got there. Yep,
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:06Yep, autopilot
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:06That's when you have an off-task thought, your brain, your attention system goes off task during an ongoing task or activity. I'm telling my brain to pay attention to driving or reading, it goes elsewhere. It's unintentional, and when our brain does that. t mind-wanders towards stressors, worries, catastrophes,
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:41To-do lists.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:22To-do lists, exactly. All of those horrible things that then make you more angry and distraught and unhappy, right? So, what if we could get control of that, stop spending so much time in that distraction and be more focused? Well, you do that by not having your phone all the time, you do that by looking at people and actually listening, because this is where leadership comes in. If we're having a conversation and I'm telling you something important, you're my, you're my commander, and I look at you and I'm like, “She's looking at me but not listening.” You can feel that as you can see. And so leaders can be mindful and focused and pay attention. It doesn't take that much, but it takes awareness. That's really what we're training when we train our minds. We are training our awareness. I'm not saying that I am perfect at being focused, I am not perfect at staying calm. The difference is, is when I start to get out of control, I recognize it quickly, and I redirect. When I notice myself not paying attention to our conversation, I redirect very quickly. That's the skill, and that's what we're not teaching enough leaders, I don't think. We're getting there, because I think leaders can set the talent, leaders can set the example, and when I was a commander, I collected data, and we found that, you know, 60, over 60% of the leaders I was interacting with on a daily basis changing their life based on the things I was teaching them, based on the way I was modeling behaviors, and then a greater squadron, it was like 35% and that's — I didn't even teach them anything, I just demonstrated an example. So imagine once you start teaching people how much more those stats will grow and how people's lives will change.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04Right. well, one of my favorite stories, I think, that you know, and I'm thinking about our leaders that are listening in here as they, as they think about how they can be better leaders. One of the stories you shared previously was actually recognizing someone by calling someone important in their life to share their good news, and it took like two minutes. I think what a wonderful lesson, like being a great leader and championing someone does not have to take a long time, but the impact lasts — could be forever. Do you mind sharing that story? Because I just think that's such a wonderful one.Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:35I love that story. So, I had an airman who got below-the-zone senior airman, and I used to do a thing where, you know, whether it was a coin or whether it was an award or whether it was just a job all done, and we wanted to celebrate someone in the squadron, you know, you could send someone an email. I hate email, which I did — also as a commander, No- Email Friday.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:56Really?!
 Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:56Did not check my emails on Fridays because I wanted one day where I wasn't chained to my desk, like I was like, in fact, you know how my wing commander found out I was doing No-email Friday?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:06Because they emailed and you didn't email back?Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:08He got my out-of-office response. Welcome to No-email Friday. “I'm not checking my email today. If you really need to get a hold of me, call me. There's my phone number.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:15I love that.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:16So I did that to ensure that I could spend more time with, like, how do you lead people if you don't know them?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:23Right, you can't.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:24And if you're sitting behind your desk or you're checking emails, like, you can't know people. So I would spend Friday down and about, and we used to do this thing where I would call someone special first for someone, if maybe they had a big event or whatever we were celebrating. So one day, this gentleman got below the zone, and I asked him to pull out his phone, because I used to call people, and people don't answer strange numbers anymore. So that stopped working. I was like, “You pick — pull out your phone, let's call someone special that you pick, and because everyone's gonna answer their kids, right? And I actually talked to, like, spouses, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, like brothers, sisters of people, yeah, over the course of my commands, and I asked him to pull out his phone, called his dad. I got to brag on him a little bit, saying, like, “Hey, this is what your son is doing,” and most of the time kids don't even tell their parents what they're doing in the Air Force, so it was an opportunity for that. At the end of the conversation, I remember it just like it was yesterday. The dad said, “I'm so proud of you, I love you, son.” And I looked up, and my airman just had tears streaming down his face, and I was getting choked up, and my airman said, my dad has never said that to me before. So we're busy as leaders, like we are, go, go, go, we are in a competitive stress environment, whether we want to be or not,and I'm just asking leaders to pause, right, and it doesn't have to take a lot of time, right, just pause. Those types of interactions you have with an airman, the next time you need them to work late, the next time you need them to take the hill, the next time you need them to go deploy, or whatever it is, you've built a level of trust that only happens when you're paying attention, and that's what the future fight is about. The future fight is about connecting as human beings and focusing when we're doing those hard and challenging things, and the way we do both of those is by training our attention system. You know, we have to pay attention to each other, and we have to pay attention to our job, so that we can be high performing when it's hard.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:25This has been excellent. I didn't — wow. Got me… Tears. Eyes are sweating here in the studio. No, this is wonderful. I'm curious, with all the work that you do in helping others, what is something you're doing every day to stay sharp yourself in this space to be better as a leader, what's something you do?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 39:46I am really big on continuously challenging myself, like I always want to have a goal or something hard in my future, like I think that that, especially as we get older, I think it's really important. And so, on a personal front, I just signed up to run 50 miles.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:04Oh my goodness.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:04I got five friends to do it with me, so I'm like excited. Yeah, it's not all in one day, it's like you run a 5k, 10k, half-marathon, marathon over the course of four days.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:14And so the longest race at the end. Wow.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:16At the end. Yes, that's why it's a big challenge. And so that's my next one.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:22When is that?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:23That is in January.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:24Oh my goodness, so yeah.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:25Just about. And again, for someone who was told you will never be a runner, I think that's also why I want to do it, you know, just to prove to myself that I can, so that's kind of a personal challenge, but on the leadership front, you know, I challenge myself every day. Writing a book was scary, right? You know, when I go and work with each team, whether it's someone in the, you know, like a company or whether it's a military unit, I try to take my time to like customize exactly what they need. It's not just going to be like cookie cutter for everyone, and so that's like my continuous challenge is, can I go into an environment and lead and instruct and educate and train in a way that's meaningful to that group, and that's, you know, what I would, I do for my job, but most importantly, I love this sentiment that you can be everything to someone or you can be someone to everyone. Sometimes in my job I get on a stage, I talk to thousands of people, and I'm someone to a lot of people, right? I can give them a little piece of what I teach, but I also have two young people in my life, my children, that my role to be everything to them is also very important, and so I try to harmonize that the best I can, because it's easy. They get caught up in, like, I'm just gonna go out there and keep sharing this message and forget that there's people closest to me. You know, leadership is about influence, right? Your 3-foot circle, which one of my classmates at the academy, Ronnie Buller, taught me, right? Your 3-foot circle is who you interact with, whether it's your family, your team, your neighbors, your community, and so you have the ability to continuously lead, and that's I want to continuously lead by example and teach people that we need to train their minds. It's not a whoo whoo thing, it's a hard thing that requires deliberate and consistent practice, and it will pay dividends if you give it the focus and time it deserves.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:28I appreciate that you use the word that you like to harmonize things in your life versus balance. I think that's a very distinct difference. It's really impressive. If you could go back in time and talk to Janelle, young Janelle, or maybe it's even just talking to your daughter once you're young girl. What advice would you give her in the space of leadership?Col. Jannell MacAulay 42:48Well, I would say to choose your hard, and I wish somebody would have imparted that a little bit more on me. I had that sentiment, and I had a lot of grit, and I had a lot of determination, and that's why I did accomplish a lot when I was younger, but it was more difficult than it needed to be. I'm not here to say, like, it makes it easy, it can be easier when correspondingly, like, you're, you're, you have great, you have determination, you're repetitively challenging yourself, that builds mental strength. But if I had known that I could also train my mind in a deliberate way, in parallel, just to make it a little bit easier, and to also find the joy in the journey. There's a picture of me when I got back from a KC-10 deployment, and I'm holding my daughter. She was 15 months, so it was like the first time I had deployed when she was young, and that was a hard deployment. And I remember, like, I look at that picture, and I can see in my face and in my eyes, that I was always already worried about the next thing. Like, instead of being joyful that I was holding my daughter, I was like, in this great moment—
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:04That's what I was expecting you to actually explain, that's crazy.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 44:07I wasn't there, like, my mind was already like, “OK, gotta go again,” like, “When's the next thing?” like, “When is was my next three-week trip that I have to leave her, when is the next thing that I'm gonna miss in her life?” And, you know, we spend a lot of time living our lives, stressful moments, a stressful moment to stressful moment, and I wish that I could have learned earlier to embrace the moments in between, to see them, right? I mind-wandered through many of them, I was just worried, I was catastrophizing. I mean, how many of us spend time in the military? As soon as you get to your first, your next assignment, you're already worried about what your next one is, right? You're like, OK, what do I need to do? Like, like, yes. And you're for me as a joint-spouse couple, there was no protections for us back then. Like, I love that they're finally gone, and I better know, yes, right? I'm so grateful for that, because we did not have those protections. It was like, here's where he's going, here's where you're going, and unless you had a commander or a leader that cared enough to make a phone call, you're going separate ways. And so I wish that somebody would have told me then to stop worrying so much about the next thing and just live more in the moment, I would have saved myself a lot of extra stress, a lot of extra angst, and I would have had more joy. And so that's really what I want for this generation, and that's why I work so hard, and I'm so passionate about this, is because if I could do it again, that's what I would want to remember.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:31So, with so many listening and watching, this is your opportunity to be, you know, something for many. What is the thing that they might do? A small thing they could do, just in their lives, to be a little bit better in their mental space and their mental capacity or performance.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:48Gosh, I have, like, an 8-hour course.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:51I know. That’s why I was like, “Here’s a nugget everybody, pay attention.”
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:56OK, I’m going to give you — can I give you three? Which ones to pick? The first one is to start practicing mindfulness, to start doing mental pushups. You cannot layer in productive thinking, you cannot pivot your mind unless you eliminate the noise. Like, that's the first thing you have to do. You have to be able to see the thoughts inside your head and make a conscious choice not to follow them. Because a lot of them are not providing value to you, right? And the skill set that does that is mental pushups, is mindfulness, and it's this idea of the definition of mindfulness is being in the present moment without any emotional reactivity or judgment. Like, just be here now without judgment, that's what it means. And it's a deliberate practice of continuously being here now without judgment, so that when you are in a moment with lots of judgment, you can filter right, and especially that's where greatness comes from. It's not because of a great moment, it's because of what you do in the moments you're given. Second thing is, for leaders, stop asking people, “How are you doing?” I want them to rephrase that question and ask, “What's going well for you today?” And the reason we do that is for those two reasons: The first one is when you ask someone how they're doing, you're gonna get — most people are just gonna give you like, “Busy,” right? “Good,” “Fine,” “Liiving the dream,” whatever, right? But did I, as a leader, get any information from you when you say any of those in response? No. And then what we do as leaders? We get, “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” And then we—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:36Check the box, check the box, check the box.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 47:37Yes. And if you happen to have someone who's like, "Oh my gosh, let me tell you,”you're almost like, “Oh my God, good for you.” I didn't mean for you guys to tell me, because that's our cluster again, right? So I want leaders to start asking people what's going well for you, and that does two things. Now I'm going to get information from you based on your answer, and that information is also going to start training your mind and your psychological framework toward optimism and hope, because do you know the biggest problem for leaders today? I think is missing the hopeless people. We think that there's this binary of optimism and pessimism, and so the optimistic people, we can find them easy, and the pessimistic people, we can find them easy too, right? They're usually, I'm usually focused on the pessimism, because they're noisy and they're loud and they're annoying and they’re bothering us and they’re bothering the whole unit, right? And sometimes we're like, “Oh my gosh, Bob is so negative and angry,” like, “We should worry about Bob.” But the thing is, is that actually Bob's not your worry, because people who are pessimistic understand they're on a sliding scale. A pessimist thinks that there's a genuine belief that things could get worse, but if you believe things can get worse, you know they can also get better, right? Which is what optimism is. I genuinely believe things will get better. So, a pessimist — it's not binary. I want people at leaders to open up the aperture. There's optimism, pessimism, and then there's hopelessness and hope. That's the second thing. And then the last thing is leaders suffer from what I call compassion fatigue. OK, it's a very real thing. How many of us spend all day at work — it's kind of a combination of decision fatigue and compassion fat. You spend all day at work making decisions for other people, you make, you spend all day at work taking other people's problems, and if you're an empathetic person, like you take it on, right? You're like, “Oh my god, feel so bad, like airmen that are struggling with all these things.” Then you go home and someone at home says, “What's for dinner,” and you flip out about what's for dinner, right? And it's like, oh my gosh, where did that come from? Like, I didn't mean to snap, or someone in your — it's very important to you, and your whole life comes to you and needs you, needs your attention, and you're like, I have no more attention to give you, I have no more compassion to offer, because I am done, like I am burnt, so it's a very real thing, and it's not an excuse, I might have given people a label for what's happening, like it's this thing—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 49:57I have compassion fatigue.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 49:59Which is very true, and it's a very real thing, and I'm not giving you an excuse, I'm telling you, you need to fix it, and here's how you need to every time, like the whole time you're at work during the day, you need to shed all the mental distress that happens. You need to shed the empathy, right? Your empathetic, the empathy that you use when you're in an interaction with someone builds like extra stress into your. It's actually in your like body, yes? Right? Like, exactly. you take on those physical, and it becomes a physical manifestation. You need to shed that. So, what I have is called a waterfall technique.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 50:36Waterfall?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 50:38So when you're, yeah, yep, so when you're engaging with people, remember we don't want to be distracted and not paying attention. So, put your phone away once you invite someone in your office. I don't have it. It distracts you by 20% if you have it on your body or in your view, right? Just have it put away. So now you're more attentive. Then I'm going to listen to you when you tell me whatever's going on in your life, and I'm going to envision we're at the top of the waterfall. Visualization is very powerful for our minds, so we're going to visualize that waterfall, and I'm talking to you, we're having a conversation, I'm fully present. You might have some stuff going on in your life, like I might have to take a note, I might be OK, follow up, I might give you some mentorship, but when we're done, your problems go down the waterfall, right? Like, we want to feel, “Oh, I’m  their commander.” No, it's still not your problem, right? The problem goes down the waterfall, so then the next person can come in. Now you're at the top of the waterfall again. I'm fully present with my next person that's coming in. I'm paying attention, I'm not thinking about the other conversation. Then when we're done, your problems get to go down the waterfall. It will protect your energy, it will protect your compassion, and so that when you go home, it'll just offer, you know. And then the other technique is before you walk in the door, do a mindful, mindful minute.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:48Mindful minute right there.Col. Jannell MacAulay 51:49Right.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:49Well, I'm glad you shared three, because I think you know, I think that's what it's about when you're on your leadership journey, and I think leadership is a lifelong journey, and I think anything we can do better, not only to help others but to help ourselves as well, is really important. So, thank you for sharing that. Well, I want, before we close, I want to go into this moment, because you said yourself is a little bit vulnerable, you've written a book. Let's talk about Breathless, and this journey you've now undertaken.Col. Jannell MacAulay 52:17So, Breathless is the story of mothers, and it's my story. And one of the women that worked on my Syria team with me, she was an Army officer, and we were both mothers of very young children at the time, and we also have two mothers in Syria that are sharing their stories with us, and they lost their children in a chemical attack. And so it's a story of mothers persevering through unimaginable odds, us working breathlessly to solve this problem, and basically having kind of this weight of the world on us to come up with a solution that would work and solve the problem, and then these mothers living in this horrible genocide, right, in this horrible time of a civil war, and under a ruthless dictator, and so they, the only reason why we're able to share their stories is because Assad, right, the liberation happened. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 53:16I was like, I was going to say they’re actually featured in your book. Gotcha. Col. Jannell MacAulay 53:20Yes, and we originally started writing this book without their stories, and then once Assad fell, like we reached out and we got two mothers to share their story, and one of the mothers, her children were just slightly older than my children, and she lost both of them. The other mother lost her daughter, and her daughter was in prison during the Arab Spring. Her son traded out with her daughter because she was afraid of the conditions and what was going to happen to her daughter in prison. So the brother traded out with his sister, and the mother didn't find out until — her name is Amsaeed — she did not find out that her son Saeed had died, executed with 25 other prisoners before Assad left the country, so she didn't find that out till after liberation, so she lost a son, she lost a daughter, this other mother had two children taken from her, and so the story is about both of our struggles. Sarin literally takes her breath away, and we were working breathlessly, you know, to help them, and just the story of what it means to be a mother, like what a mother's love, what a mother's heart will do. And I just talked to Amsaeed last week, we coordinated a Zoom together, and I got to hear her story firsthand. She got to meet me and understand my story, and it was very evident to me that she said something that was very pertinent. She , “The world has a short memory, and people have probably already forgotten about Syria,” right? Like, oh yeah, something with chemical weapons, bad dictator, like it's another part of the world. And so part of writing this book also is to keep her story alive, to not let the awful things that happened to these women, I mean, to the whole community of Syrians, right, civilians, but especially the mothers who had to not even get to bury their children, and to help their stories survive, so that we can prevent these types of atrocities from happening in the future. So that's really, I, this conversation with her, and that was my promise to her, is that we're writing this book to acknowledge this horrific thing happened, to all, to celebrate what women can do together, and to also just bring more awareness as to what a mother's heart means, and how it helped Tina and I persevere through this mission, and it helped them go through this awful, awful time and get to the other side, right? They had other children that they had to live on for, so that's really what it's about, and that's what I hope to share with the world.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 55:57Well, I thank you for taking the time to write that and share their stories, because you're right, I think memory is so short-term, especially if it's something that doesn't really impact, right? If you didn't feel any kind of personal impact, so I think bringing those stories to life is just a wonderful thing. So, thank you for doing that. Can't wait to get my copy. Impressive.Col. Jannell MacAulay 56:16Absolutely. And can I say one more thing to the young people today? When I was first in the Air Force, I never imagined that this mission was in front of me, that this opportunity was in front of me, or that I would be now writing this book and reflecting on my time again. I want them to know you don't have to be someone special, you just have to be willing to say yes to the challenge, that's really what it, what it comes down to. And so I want to encourage all the young people who are just setting off on these careers to not be afraid of the challenge to embrace it, and who knows what amazing things they're capable of, all the possibilities, all those dreams.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 56:56Janelle, this has been amazing. I mean, I think what you've shared in your journey, in your moments, and your experiences, this is all about what Long Blue Leadership is. I mean, our listeners, those who are watching this, there's no doubt that they've taken something that is going to help them, and their 3-foot circle around them, right? And their community, so this has been incredible. I mean, when I think about our conversation the last hour, which has flown by, the things that really stick with me, Janelle, are you know, pausing, you know, being present, that we aren't defined by, you know, what we do, but by what we commit to and who we are, kind of underlying that for everyone listening. I'm certain that you can take those three things to do: waterfall, mindful minutes, what's going well for you today. That's my positive question. Any of those lessons, I think, can be just game changers in our lives as leaders. So, I want to thank you for being among the leadership tonight. It's been truly my honor and pleasure to be with you. I want to thank all of you for joining us. And for anyone that you know in your network that is a leader that's going through their own leadership journey, have them tune in to Long Blue Leadership wherever they get their podcast, because these are not just about amazing things that our graduates are accomplishing, but about the journeys and moments and experiences that our grads have gone through that can translate into your life. So, thank you again for joining us on Longview Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99 She was here ’98 dominates, red in the house. We'll accept it this time. No, just kidding. But until next time, we'll see you again. 
 
KEYWORDS
Resilience, vision-driven leadership, overcoming adversity, growth mindset, mental toughness, choose your hard, purpose-driven service, values-based decision-making, leading through crisis, ethical responsibility, courage under pressure, human-centered leadership, empathy, compassion in command, modeling behavior, calm in the storm, stress management, burnout prevention, psychological safety, trust-building, recognition and appreciation, mindful leadership, presence, attention control, eliminating noise, focus and performance, harmonizing work and family, identity beyond the job, servant leadership, influence within your three-foot circle, creating opportunity, challenging the status quo, innovative problem-solving, perseverance, hope and optimism, leading by example, empowering others, developing mental skills, embracing discomfort, saying yes to challenge, long-term impact of leadership, legacy and storytelling.
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 

SUMMARY
In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, U.S. Air Force Academy boxing coach Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford ’97 shares how the sport shaped his approach to leadership, service and mentoring the next generation of cadets. A strong conversation on resilience and growth.
 
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COACH CLIFFORD'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
Leadership is about others, not you. Elevate the people around you—when your team wins, you win.
Iron sharpens iron. Seek (and create) hard reps, tougher opponents, and uncomfortable situations to build real capability.
Look for “dogs,” not resumes. Prioritize competitiveness, resilience, and willingness to get hit and keep going over pedigree.
Turn on the hot water. Know when it’s time to flip the switch from relaxed and joking to locked-in, all-business execution.
Take the punch, then execute. Composure after getting hit—physically or metaphorically—is the true test of a leader.
Accountability and care must coexist. You can deeply care for people and still enforce standards, discipline, and consequences.
Bloom where you’re planted. Be the best where you are before chasing the next opportunity; stop leading with the exit plan.
Don’t lead only with rank. Some of the strongest leaders on his team lead through work ethic, example, and quiet influence.
Use mentors; don’t go it alone. Pick up the phone, ask for help, and learn from those who’ve led through similar moments.
Family and support systems are force multipliers. A stable, supportive home front enables you to show up fully for the mission.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Intro: “Sometimes leadership means the mission stopped being about you” + Mark’s accolades
00:01:40 – From hoops to the ring: leaving basketball, discovering boxing, and Coach Weichers’ influence
00:03:55 – Finding “dogs”: how Mark recruits scrappy, resilient cadets and builds national champions
00:07:57 – Growing up competitive: family, academics-first father and rivalry with his brother
00:11:09 – Leadership from the ring: iron sharpening iron and elevating everyone on the team
00:14:30 – Warrior mindset: teaching cadets to take a punch, stay composed and execute a plan
00:19:00 – Riding the emotional highs and lows: coaching, winning, losing and not burning out
00:21:08 – Accountability with heart: tough call in Korea, stripes, and good order and discipline
00:24:36 – Competing together: peer squadron commanders, shared struggle and mutual support
00:28:05 – When you want to quit: advice Col. Clifford got, what he tells cadets now and “bloom where you’re planted”
00:32:16 – Quiet leaders and culture: cadets who lead through work ethic and example
00:37:23 – Daily leadership reps: mental prep, PE classes, influence in the athletic department
00:43:11 – Talk to young Col. Clifford: trust the process, shake off negativity and the power of family support
 
ABOUT
BIO
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford, a 1997 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy and former National Collegiate Boxing Association champion, is in his second season as head coach of the Air Force boxing program after leading the women’s team to its first NCBA national title in his debut season, highlighted by a program-record four individual champions and a sweep of the men’s and women’s NCBA Western Regional titles. A former team captain and three-time NCBA All-American as a cadet, Col. Clifford also served two stints as an assistant coach, contributing to four national team championships and 21 individual national champions. He retired from the Air Force as a lieutenant colonel after 20 years of service, including assignments as director of fuel operations for Air Force One, commander roles in Hawaii and South Korea, combat tours supporting Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom, and work on the Joint Staff at the Pentagon. Following his military career, Col. Clifford held leadership positions at Grand Canyon University and the DREAM Foundation, focusing on sports management education and mentorship opportunities for students. He earned a master’s degree from the University of Maryland Global Campus and a doctorate from the University of New Mexico.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS:
Guest, Coach Mark Clifford ’97  |  Host, Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Sometimes leadership means realizing the mission stopped being about you a long time ago. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Mark Clifford, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 0:14Thanks for having me.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:15Absolutely, you know, we could jump right in, but before I do, I have to just talk about this. I had to write this down to make sure I didn't miss it. Boxing team captain, obviously; three-time Wing Open champ; three-time regional champ, three-time National Collegiate Boxing Association All-American, and the national champion of the NCBA your senior year.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 0:33Yes, ma'am.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34I mean, that's just, and that's just as a cadet. Then you went on to serve 20 years in the Air Force as a logistics readiness officer, you know, you're commanding and you're leading squadrons. In addition to that, on the higher education side, assistant dean at Grand Canyon University in sports business.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 0:49Yes, yeah, ran the sport management program when I first got there, probably a year after I got there, just to get my feet wet with higher ed, and then was elevated to the assistant dean of the College of Business. And so it was, it was fun, it was amazing, it was very different from what you're used to in the military, because I tried to come in with a little bit of military mindset, but it’s a civilian institution, so you know, just a little bit different, just bringing myself there and seeing what happened.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:13Well, you know, I guess what it shows is that you're not afraid to jump in and do, you know, something new. And I think that's — we'll probably discover that in the conversation today. So, maybe where we can start is the fact that you are back at USAFA as the boxing coach. You're here now running and leading the program that shaped you.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 1:31Yes.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:32Let's talk about that.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 1:33Yes, let's talk about — I mean, I love the program. You know, I came into the Academy, went to the Prep School, on a five-year plan, like some of us that need a little extra help, little extra year, you know. I took my time and really understand that came in, I'm such a competitor. I was playing basketball at the Prep School, came in my freshman year, hoping to be on the basketball team, worked really hard, did all things the coaches asked me to do, still sat the bench, and so, like a lot of cadets, like every cadet, even our women now have to take boxing class, you know, as a mandatory class.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:04When did that start? What year? Do you remember?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 2:07I want to say 2017 is when the women started. It's always been instituted for our men. So my freshman year I did really well in the class, to the point where I had to box our assistant coach at the time, Ray Carter, for my GR, my test.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:22Did you get an A?
Col. Mark Clifford 2:23I got an A. But it hurt.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:26For him?
Col. Mark Clifford 2:27Heck no! He was the one punching me. He busted me up pretty good, but I still got the A in the class, and coaches — the same system I use today — is trying to find cadets in boxing class that are competitors that are looking to do more than just be either a cadet or on the team that they're on or ride a bench. I got tired of riding the bench behind a couple of folks until sophomore year, coach came and said, “Hey, you still interested in boxing?” I quit basketball, went to boxing and the rest is history.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:58You didn't look back at all.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 2:59No, you know it's hard to look back because it's shaped — I think we all kind of think back to our cadet years. I know I do sometimes, and kind of reminisce about, “What if?” I remember walking across the street one time, and my brother was ahead of me in ’90s — Class of ’96 — on the football team, and I was walking across the street as a freshman to basketball practice and ran across Coach Fisher DeBerry. “Hey, Clifford, will you come play football with me?” And so, you always think about opportunities that kind of cross your path, and I think about what would have happened if I would have done something different. I don't know if this story would be as successful as it is, based off of what I've learned in boxing and where I am today. And so, I'm very thankful for the program. I'm thankful for Coach Eddie Weichers, who shaped me, was a father figure for us when we were here. And you know, it's tough being a cadet, so you got to have allies and friends and people and mentors, and he was definitely one for me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:55Well, I'd love to know, you know — he saw you in class and discovered that talent. How are you finding potential nowadays in the cadets for the program? Because you just happened to have the women who defended a national champion, won it. So, two years now have been the NCBA national champs.Col. Mark Clifford 4:15I think it's a couple of things I look for. One is, how scrappy are you? I think it was easy at Grand Canyon University to find, you know, the era of COVID, and the resiliency wasn't quite the same as what I remembered when I was here as assistant coach, and as a captain and as a major, as well. The cadets are different, the mentality is different, and so kind of make it simple, I'm looking for dogs, I'm looking for cadets that a) are excited to fight, are not afraid to box, aren't afraid to get hit, love the intensity of the sport, and I can shape that, and you know, the potential piece of that is, can they throw a pretty good punch, and can they take a punch, and they're not, you know, they're not jumping out of the ring with that. That kind of translates into what we're looking for with all of our officers and all officer candidates, is making sure that they can stay there and take a punch, collect themselves, and then go back and execute, right? And so that's what I'm looking for, and I've tried to find those in classes, and you know, a lot of times it's a lot of the athletes.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:21Right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 5:22Because they're recruited here for other reasons, well, and other…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:24Other sports.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 5:25Other sports, or whatever, and they want to be competitive, and as a freshman and a sophomore. It's tough, because you got juniors and seniors who have experience on the team. They're out there performing, and you're sitting on the bench, well, you know, I get you in the sport where you don’t have to sit the bench.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:43That's right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 5:44It's top person wins.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:45So when I think about the team that you formulate and you grow, and they continue to hone in our craft, is it always the athletes that you kind of, that maybe have been benchwarmers, or have you found the diamonds in the rough that maybe have never fought in their lives, and never — that kind of surprise you, that have risen to the top?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 6:04You know, there are a lot of diamonds in the rough, there are a lot of, but back to what, there's a lot of cadets that come here that aren't necessarily on a divisional, we're lucky because we have 25% of our population at the Academy are divisional athletes. But there are so many other young cadets that are just as competitive, just as athletic, and looking for something else, and how do you give them something, right? And when they get to come to the Wing Open and see their classmates in the center of Clune Arena, and that thing is filled with all the rest of the Cadet Wing.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:37Yes, and grads and the community.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 6:39And the community. They put the floor seats right there, you can sit ringside, it's an amazing thing. How do I be a part of it? And my philosophy is simple: If you enter the Wing Open and you win, then you're the person that represents this for regions and nationals. There's no favoritism, because I quote, unquote, recruited Naviere as a freshman. Now she's a senior, well, the senior gets her butt whooped, I'm taking a freshman. And so it's a very fair system, and so you find those diamonds in the rough. I'll give you one — two-time national champ. She's our team captain this year, Elise Bell. I don't think she's ever fought in her life.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:16Wow.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 7:16When I walked in the gym last year, my first year, I just noticed her work ethic. How do you just pour into something like that and refine that in the gym to become a national champ. And last year — I just love to tell her story, because last year I believe in regionals and nationals, every first round she lost 5-0 to the judges. She was losing, and she won every bout.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:42Interesting.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 7:43So it's just — you find those, and I'm hoping to find more of those cadets that just have that same energy, that resilience, that toughness and courage, really, and willingness to do what we ask you to do.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:58So, were you like that growing up? Were you someone that had this mindset of, you know, a work ethic and, you know, scrappy, you know, before even getting into boxing? Were you like that as a kid?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 8:09I was just a competitor, and that's my father, that's my mother, that's my grandmother, my father's side, who was very — everything had to be put into place. My father was born in 1929 in Washington, D.C., went to Howard University, ROTC post-Tuskegee, and entered the Air Force through ROTC in 1949.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:41Wow.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 8:42So his thing was academics, always.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:45Yes.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 8:45But I had a brother who was a year ahead of me, and it was academics for both of us. But how do you best the guy that's right next to you? Like, it was always just — my brother's name is Larry. That's what Larry and I always did, whether it was girls or sports, school, right? Yeah, it was always
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:02You drove each other.
Col. Mark Clifford 9:03We drove each other, and it's just — it was amazing. You don't realize that until you're older, and so you go, “Yeah, that's what that did.” And so I think I was always just, 1) I was always a competitor, like I wasn't always the best, but I'd like to try to strive to be, and so that was just kind of how I was shaped.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22So was your dad very excited when you — you were recruited to the Academy, is that correct?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 9:28My dad kind of wanted me to go — more so than maybe I wanted to go.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34When did you realize, like — because obviously you were on the five-year plan, right? So I think you had a couple of times to make a decision, like, “I’m good,” but you stayed. So when was it that it really connected with you that this is where I want to be, and I want to stay.
Col. Mark Clifford 9:47Probably after my sophomore year.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:50OK.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 9:50Yeah, because my first three years, like, I wanted to play basketball so bad. I was trying to recruit myself. This is when you had to go send out your videotape. You know what I’m saying. You’re there with me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:01Yes, yes, paper. Email's not the thing back then. All paper.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 10:05All paper. I’m trying to send videotapes out. Spring break at the Prep School, I think I went to Cal Riverside and tried to meet with the coach and drop off my tape. That's how bad I wanted to play basketball, right, and then I found success in boxing, and it was, I think, why go anywhere else? You start to realize, you get over, like, you're gonna have a job when you graduate. I don't have to look for a job, I don't have to go out there and struggle. I'm gonna get what I want to do out of the military, and it's gonna be a five-year thing for me, and then I'm out, right? And so I think that's what it was. I think it was my sophomore year, and I was going, my grades are terrible. I could say that now. It was — but no one's ever asked me for my GPA. I still was able to get a doctorate. Like, there's things that happen in your life that you'll still be able to achieve success, even though you weren't as great at it before. And so, yeah, I think it was just the realization of, “I could do this.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:09So in that journey of, you know, wanting to play basketball so bad, finding a space and a place that really you started to hone in on yourself in boxing, and then, you know, went into the Air Force, you were leading. What have you found out about yourself in a leadership perspective through those different situations, whether you ended up not playing basketball or something that went really well for you, like national champ?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 11:35I think just overall leadership was the ability for me to impact others to be successful, and I think that's what I took out of boxing, because it is an individual sport, but it's very team-oriented. We don't put banners on the wall that say “national champion” without a team mentality to make sure that our teammate, left and right of us, are also excelling. And so, in a small sport like boxing, at a time where I boxed, there was 12 weight classes, but you're boxing the guy above a weight and below a weight, because you're trying to make that person better, iron sharpens iron.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:10Right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 12:10I also had, I was a 172-, 175-pounder boxing the heavyweight, because in my mind was no one's gonna hit me as hard as this guy is gonna hit me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:19That's right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 12:20And so if I can stand and get and last with this guy, I can last with anybody in college boxing. And that flowed for me into the military of — and part of my philosophy was how do I elevate everybody else, because I realized here at the Academy it's not about us, right? We're in the people business to make sure people around us are elevated, have the things that they need, resources they need to make sure that they're doing the job the best of their ability. Because then the unit does better as a team. The wing does better as a team. It's not about us individually. And so I think for me being able to translate that out of boxing into my Air Force career was part of what shaped me as a leader to make myself successful.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:02Did you find yourself seeing if anyone could take a punch from you in your Air Force uniform, or how did you do that?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 13:10Well, you know, I punch my words when I know you can't put your hands on people.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:16Of course.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 13:19You know, back in the early days, you know, I think the chief excused me from a meeting, and the meeting was back behind the fuel watershed. I can't remember…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:32Fair enough.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 13:33Some wall-to-wall training that was going on with other individuals, but hey, chief said it was good. Roger that chief.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:40That's hilarious.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 13:41Yeah, no, you know, you don't put your hands on people. I used to have to tell people, “Don't let my smile fool you,” you know. I like to have a good time, I enjoy myself, I enjoy the people that I'm around. Also, I know our job is very serious, and I was very serious about our job. And so, part of my leadership philosophy was always — my dad's thing was the Golden Rule, you know, treat people the way that you want to be treated. And I always — there's some things here at the Academy that I didn't love, so I took away from, “I'm not going to be that type of person,” into accountability, holding people accountable, myself included. And so even at the Academy, as a knucklehead cadet, I did goofy stuff. I'd be the first one to say, yeah, I take my lumps, march my tours, take my Form 10, do what you need to do, but just survive the place and learn from it, and it shapes you out as a leader.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:31Absolutely. You know, I'm curious, because I think about — you just said, “I like to have fun,” and you know, “but don't let my smile fool you.” You know, when you think about boxing and the mentality you have to have to literally stand across from somebody and hit someone, or take a punch, or you know, be hit back. How do you train that kind of mindset? Because I have to think it parallels a lot with the fact that we are developing warfighters. You know, how do you train that?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 14:57Yeah, you know, that's kind of the bottom line of the boxing class. It's not about finding championship boxers. The boxing class is about exactly what you just outlined. It's how do you, as an individual, put a strategy and plan together knowing that you have an adversary across the ring that's going to hurt you. Like, the object of the game is to punch you. Pros is more so to hurt you. College boxing, amateurs, more to score more points than you. Bottom line, they'll hurt you, and that mentality of how do you compose yourself? Do the things that we asked you to do: a) defend yourself, b) have an offensive plan, even if you're losing, how do you compose yourself? Right, part of that warrior spirit is making sure that we always have that mindset of how we're going to achieve and beat our adversaries, and I think that's the bottom line of the boxing class. It's just, how do we do that? So, the mindset is exactly that, is you know you're gonna get punched, but can you punch that person when they punch you? Can you put some other things in place that I gave you tools — that I gave you, head movement, defensive movement — to take those punches away, right? From a strategic standpoint, and then be offensive, and then score your points.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:11Right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 16:11And so that's the mentality we try to have boxers to make sure that this is a sport where you're gonna get hit. Once you get past that hurdle, it's good, right? It's how you work on all these other skill sets that make you better than your opponent. And if the other person's just as skilled as you are, what's the edge that we get? And I think that's part of our mental preparation that we do as well as our physical preparation.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:34So I think about you shaping that for the team, both the men and women. How was that shaped for you? Was that your coach at the time, Eddie Weichers? Was that Wiechers? Was that someone in your family? Who were those mentors in your life?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 16:45For me, it was Eddie Weichers and Ray Carter. Ray Carter was an enlisted assistant coach, and he was four-time, I think, All-Air Force heavyweight champ. Those two were instrumental for me, especially during my career times, before my time as a boxer, because I would work hard, work out a lot with Coach Carter, because the same mentality helped with a heavyweight. If this big joker can hit me, I can take the punch… He's also going to teach me some things. I mean, Coach Weichers was the same. It was the mental piece that his thing was knowing to turn on the hot water, and it was because I would have a good time, enjoy practice, have fun with the guys, but when you step in that ring, turn the hot water on, it's all about business. So, then, when you step out, turn it back on to cold, go back to goofing off and doing things that you do, but you get in there, it's all about business. And so, how do you train your mind to go, like, man, “I gotta go to war right now?” And it was, you know, I had a preparation before I got to the ring, and some things that I did that helped me mentally prepare before I jumped in there, but…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:52What did you do?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 17:53You know, again, it was the Walkman CD Walkman, the CD Walkman. And I couldn't jump around too much because it was Skip. Yeah, the CB was skip had the little baby headphones had my little do rag on and I would just zone out on some music, I would zone out on music until it was time for me to get up and do my physical warm up with some jumping some rope shadow boxing and maybe little hand mitts with the coach before I jumped in the ring, but OK, yeah, it was a, you know, I couldn't jump around too much. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:25It would skip, that's true. Now they just have — they don't have to have anything connected, just put in their ears.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 18:30I'm jealous about it, to be honest.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:35So I imagine when you're coaching, and I'm saying I imagine because I've not coached ever to this level. I coach my son's little league basketball team, but which is a whole different level of coaching, but what I find curious is, have you ever found yourself in the feeling of, because you know how it felt when you win, when you lose, and when you watch your cadets going through that, how does that affect you as a coach?Col. Mark Clifford 19:01Yes, I'm learning to not, I'm learning to not ride the emotion like they do, but I definitely did my first year, I think, as an assistant coach. So, I was assistant coach with Coach Wishers five years total as active duty officer, and that was different because I was on the sideline, he was the main guy, I was a support guy, but when you're the head guy, you're the one that gives the kids advice, giving them the strategy, and then really I felt it at nationals, especially when we started to win in with our women, we our first female won in the first half of the day, a freshman, I don't know if she was expected to win. She didn't expect to win, but in our hearts, in our minds, we knew. And then this is the motion, because I know how hard they work and what it takes to get your hand raised, because I came up short my first two years when I'm the guy standing with my hands down, the other guy's hand is raised, and then getting my hand raised my senior year was the most amazing feeling. I rode that same emotion when we lost, when we won, and I was worn out and tired. So I'm trying to train myself not to try to ride that emotion, but it's hard, like you know. I want to be in there with them, and I feel the same things that they feel, because I went through that same process they went through. And so it's interesting dynamic because I'm trying to peel myself away from mine. I just haven't detached yet. I think I'm still emotionally and mentally driven by what happens with our cadets, and it's a weird feeling.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:36I imagine as a leader that's probably a common challenge you have because you care so deeply about your team, like family, that you do get emotional, right, and that might even be one of the sharpest knives in your, in your kit. It's just, you know, how you employ it, I guess.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 20:52Yeah, you know, that reminds me of a really tough situation when I was a commander in Korea. Back to, had to hold somebody accountable with that person. Part of the discipline action was taking a strike, right, blah blah blah, the things that happened for something negative, right, but he's such a good person, and it was a first, first mistake, but it was a big one, and what that led to was a person dropping rank, but then hitting higher tenure, and couldn't test for the next strike, and so I really struggled with that, and had really tough conversations with not only the group chief, but my commander, right, and my chief, my first sergeant. Is this really the right thing for this individual? I think ultimately for good organ discipline. Yes, I think emotionally because it was a small unit. We were in Korea, his, he had his wife there, I had my family there, right? So they became friends, close, right, close enough, because such a small group, and that's the type of organization that I like to have, because I think if it's you, almost play that disappointment role or daddy role, or whatever, however you want to characterize it, that leadership style, but it was, man, you really got to depend on your brother or sister, you let that person down, and you let us all down. Yes, and so that's part of my leadership style, especially in Korea. I took over for a commander that was let go and fired, and so there was a whole cultural change I had to do, so that was when the “don't let the smile full you” happened, right? And you just had to make sure that you held people accountable. That was one of the tough ones where emotionally you're going, "Man, am I making the right call?” Organizationally, absolutely. Personally, for that individual, it was tough. It was tough.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:36How did those moments stretch you as a leader? I find that fascinating, because you do. You have such a warm and, you know, fun personality about you. I mean, I think when you think about command and the decisions you've had to make at different times, both in the ring, out of the ring, in uniform, et cetera. How did you grow as a leader?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 22:53I think we all grow every day. I think, for me, I lean a lot on my mentors. I'm not afraid to ask for help, right? I learned that early in my career, that it took me a while, because I was in the way, but it took me a while to understand that I can pick up the phone and ask somebody for help, and they're going to help you, because, as an organization, our Air Force, our Space Force is all about making sure people are successful. We don't set people up for failure. Why? Because if one individual fails, yeah. So I think for me making those tough calls was was challenging, because because of my leadership style. I think it was, I want people to get along, I want our team to be meet the standard of excellence, if not exceeded. I want us to be always on that front edge, because I'm a competitor. Yes, I want to be the best, but also that comes with accountability and tough decisions. And I think when you have to be in the moment, make some of those tough decisions, that's you just have to go back and reflect. You have to lean on people that do the same thing. I had a great group of fellow squadron commanders at my first command in Hawaii, that's a really terrible basis to go to, that's why I stayed there for 20, that's why I stayed there for 20. The plan was five. Oh, yes, yeah, 20 happened because I had some great people around me, and I, and the bases weren't bad either, and so my family loved it, and we saw some rough assignments, but it ended up being great, but I can lean on my fellow squadron commanders if I had some enough time. But it was just a bitch session, or if it was a leadership lesson. Most of us were about the same year group, age group. I think one or two of the commanders was a year or two ahead of me, but it was just — we weren't competing with each other. We were making sure we were all competing together and being successful together.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:53I think about that theme of being a competitor, and I remember you telling me about your brother and your dad. So, has there been a continued, you know, competition, and how you guys have done in your, in your careers and in life, or have you leaned back to your dad, like, “Hey, Dad, so how do you go about this?”
 
Col. Mark Clifford 25:09No, you know, we unfortunately lost my dad a couple years ago.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:13Oh, I’m sorry.
Col. Mark Clifford 25:13No, it's OK; 94 years of an amazing life. I found some old pictures of him and Chappie James, which is pretty — talk about history and legacy. But no, I think my brother — I found out — so, my brother left after his sophomore year. He hadn't finished the Academy. He stuck around here another year, so my sophomore year, and I really came to find out, although we competed against each other our entire lives, he was my No. 1 fan, and I didn’t even know it. It was like — he would tell me stories of, I think, my first Wing Open, maybe my second Wing Open — my first Wing Open sophomore year, that he, for the first time, said some cuss words next to my dad because they were in the stands, because he was cheering for me, and it was just funny to hear, like, we're grown-ups, but you can't cuss in front of my dad. You don’t say those things. He was like, “Oh no, Dad's gonna get me.” But no, I think since then it's been a really supportive relationship, and like anything that I do, he'll call me as soon as we're competing anywhere as a coach now, ask how we did, how the cadets did, he said he's proud of me, I'm proud of him too, and he's doing real estate in Southern California with his wife and his family. So it was weird to see that, or hear that from him, because it was always like…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:31Yeah, you were always like mmmm mmmm. Looking over your shoulders.
Col. Mark Clifford 26:35Yeah, like who’s going to get who? But it was awesome. It was kind of cool.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:38I love that, and I'm just thinking, you know, I'm sorry to hear of your dad passing, but I'm sure throughout those years you had many calls to him about, you know, some of those decisions you had to make in uniform, and I'm sure he was extremely proud of you making it a career.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 26:51Yeah, yeah, I think he also was surprised I lasted as long as I did, just because I was so against it early on in my career. But no, I've been super proud, and it was always good to come home and just kind of share some stories with him, and he would reflect back on his stories, and he was a fighter pilot, and so just some of his fighter-pilot stories, and you know, the things that shaped me — talk about moments in your career and moments that shaped his career. It was just — it’s just cool to have somebody like that in a different era that can share the different challenges, but also the same.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:31That's a good point. Yeah.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 27:32I think that's what's interesting with the military, like, and coming back to the Academy is a perfect example. Like, there's challenges that we have, they're kind of the same that we've had, probably 15 years ago when I was here.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:45Like a cycle.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 27:46It’s a cycle. Yeah. So it's like now you have new leaders, how do they work through these different challenges differently than we did before? Not that we need to repeat history, but at the same time, you know what I'm saying, it just becomes a cyclical thing, that was how do we work.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:03How do we navigate that? Yeah.
Col. Mark Clifford 28:05The same stuff, yeah.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:06I want to go back to something you said, and I think it probably plays into some of the cadets that you work with, and or help to coach. You talked about how you weren't sure you wanted to go to the Academy, and staying, you know. The idea of quitting is where I'm really kind of going. What advice have you received to help you not quit, or to kind of push through when you wanted to quit? And have you seen that with cadets, and how are you navigating that?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 28:29Yes, and yes. I think the best advice I received when I was thinking about quitting was, “Just really ask yourself why, what's the purpose, and then where you're going to go, like what's the plan?” And that's what was one of my dad's themes was, especially when I got out, was looking to navigate civilian jobs, right, but you don't leave something unless you got something else in your other hand. And so I was like, “How do you really focus in on being the best at where you're at, right, before you even think about stepping somewhere else?” And I had to reflect on that, especially as a cadet, was I really being the best at where I was as a freshman? Sophomore, I could tell you no, because I wanted so many other things, and it wasn't had anything to do with the Academy, had nothing to do with the Academy, but you know…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:21You were focused on basketball…
 
Col. Mark Clifford 29:23Focused on other things until I could really be the best at all the things, and it's a balance here at the Academy — academically, militarily, athletically. I wanted to be the best athletically. How do I go win a national championship as the boxer? And so I found out that you've got to prioritize, which is… Right? We all had to do that. We all have to do that in our lives today. And so my priority was boxing, because I wanted to be great at athletics; academics, because I knew I can't get out of this place unless academics met the standard.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:01And you couldn’t box here…
 
Col. Mark Clifford 30:03And I couldn’t do that without the academics. My dad saying, like, “You don't do anything else unless your academics are where they need to be.” And lastly — it was OK for me militarily. I can make the military stuff work. It wasn't my party. Maybe I should have bowed a little bit more. So I share that with our cadets. Is how do you balance those things that want to make you successful? The one thing I tell the cadets now is, because I've been in the civilian world, it's tough. Like, if you leave here, you got to navigate A, go get a degree, and then B, trying to find a job which meets your standard and the standard of living that you want to have, it's going to be difficult. It's not — and so it's still a cadet's choice. Yes, and we've talked to them about, like, all right, make sure you put things in place to make yourself successful. But I try to give them same advice. I said, “There's no other place outside of the three military academies where you’re going to go through a really tough time, you're going to have really awesome friends, you're gonna have a great experience, and, oh, by the way, you have a job, and you graduate — with free medical and dental, like that stuff's not cheap. Yeah, so I, you know, I think I share those things with the cadets, especially when they talk about leaving. And then I like to share — I try not to go back to, “Oh, back in my day” with that.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:19Because our day was a long time ago.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 31:21Now you didn’t have to say it out loud. I think we know that, but it's true, you know, it's there are still some challenges out there, but they have to navigate the waters, and there's some things that they do differently now at the Academy that we did when we were at the Academy, but this is a really cool place. It's a great place to be from. It's a great place to put on a resume when you decide to get out of the military after your obligation. It's a great place because they're gonna give you a job and occupation. You get to fly jets if that's what you want to do. There's so many opportunities here that the cadets have.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:59Yes.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 31:59And I just overload them with that, because I think it is an amazing place. And the reason why I come back to it, because I think so highly of what it's done for me and shaped me. How can I do that for others and mentor others to make sure that they have a similar experience, but a successful one, no matter what their story is.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:17Can you share an example of a cadet that surprised you from a leadership perspective, because of their work with you and their time in the ring.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 32:25Well, it's hard. So I'm only in my second year. I've got a couple of seniors this year. Elise Bell is one of them. Her fiancé, Kamari Jackson, is a cadet I met when I was here. He was starting his junior year, he's coming off a neck injury, and I challenged him because he's hanging around the gym. I didn't know why. Now I know why. I thought it was boxing, it wasn't. It was Elise, but I'm good with that, you know. I would whisper in Elise's ear, try to get him back, because he was really good as a freshman. Then got hurt, but he's another young man that's just took leadership by the horn. Came in back this year, I challenged him to be at a certain weight. He said, “Coach, I'm coming back, I want to win it. I made weight.” I didn't think he was going to make the weight his first semester, fall semester. He was a squadron commander, plate is full but still made it down. Was one of those — he wasn't our team captain, but he was a team captain.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:26Yes.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 33:27It was just one of those…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:28…leading without rank or title.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 33:30You didn't need it, yeah, but he just had that. He has an aura. I wouldn't say he surprised me. I just think it was just one of those success stories where you're going, man. I love to have a team like this that just — and we do. They lead in their own way. We've got some quiet ones; I've got some vocal ones. I've got ones — our senior this year, our heavyweight, the one that won the Wing Open, he did it with his work ethic. Elise Bell, she leads with her work ethic. There are different ways of leading in the gym, and I try to harness that, and then elevate those that are doing it, making sure the team sees what they're doing. There's a young lady, she's very quiet, prior enlisted two-time national champ now. She's won three Wing Opens, she's gonna probably get her fourth as a senior, she's gonna be our team captain this year, because she's quiet, but it brings out her show, forces her to use her voice a little bit more, because she does it quietly with her work ethic in the corner. But you all see her because she's always in the ring and she's always working. So, I wouldn't say they surprised me just yet. I haven't had so many surprises just yet, but I've had some that has solidified my resolve in why I came back because they understand where they're going, they're learning what leadership is, because you don't always have to vocally stand on the pedestal and be the person on top to be a leader, and I love that piece of this.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:56So, I'm sure maybe this is a silly question, but obviously you have been assistant coach in the past. What made you come back as head coach?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 35:03It's a silly question, Naviere. These cadets — no, this place is special. I love the Athletic Department. I mean, back to what it's done for me: I had the opportunity to come back as a young captain, working in the athletic department, was able to get a doctorate degree out of this place, was able to come back again and be around the cadets to learn more from Coach Eddie Weichers. And I think all of those parts and pieces helped develop me, because it put me in positions where I was able to grab jobs and be in positions to be successful. I had no business picking up a squadron command the second time I was here, but I was able to pick up the squadron command, because I had people pulling for me, pushing for me, and that's what you go back to, like you said before, what helped shape you, and that it's just the people around here that help shape me. And how do I come back and give back to an institution, to a department that really shaped me as an individual? And that's what I'm doing. I think I come back because it's — I want to see the cadets who struggled like me, and I find them in class too, that are debating whether they want to be or not, looking for something else to be a part of, and I always invite them to be part of the boxing family, because I know what boxing did for me and others who went through this program that were competitive, that couldn't make another team, or wasn't on a different team that wanted to show their skill that wanted to balance something from the academic side, because that is so stressful. Punching something is very stress relieving. There's something about it — especially if I can punch something in the face in front of other people and not get in trouble — I was doing it. And so I think being able to come back and give that opportunity to other cadets and then watch them flourish with it and grow with it, I think is why I'm back. And so I'm thankful for the athletic department. I'm thankful for the Academy. So, how do I pay it forward in my way, paying it forward? This is my way of paying it forward.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:02I love that. Well, I want to ask you something that we ask our guests on this, because it's really about how you continue to hone your skills as a leader through all the journeys, right? In uniform, out of uniform, in the private sector, higher education, etc. What is something you do every day to be better as a leader?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 37:23Well, you know, I think is internally, “How do I have an impact,” as a head coach in the athletic department, and I'm not an NCAA sport like some of our other coaches. How do I impact people around me in my sphere of influence? It's very different now when you're an officer, when you're a commander, you have entire unit that you have impact on. Mine are smaller. One, it's internally with my team, is how do I lead and impact my team, and so I want to make sure that I'm always prepared to support our cadets through practice, having a plan for them so they know when they walk in the door what we're supposed to do. Because I think that's important from a discipline standpoint of knowing and understanding what I have to do when I get to the gym, and what my end goal is. And I always come in for that mentally prepared, and then mentally preparing them for the rest of the season, because we have a long season. And then I always think about my series of influence. I'm in the athletic department on the physical education side. How do I make sure I am prepared for the other cadets in classes that aren't on the team? Make sure they have a positive experience in PE class, but also I make sure they know that I'm a grad. I make sure that they know I'm a high-level guy, because I think there's value in that when they can always ask questions that are driven towards operational air force, not necessarily about this particular class. So I make sure I'm prepared for those cadets, and then how do I then allow myself to be available for the rest of the department, not only the physical education department, but our athletic directors, and making sure that I'm a resource. I've been here before, right? I understand something. I may not have all the answers, but I'm willing to help the support. I'm always preparing myself daily for the cadets and the staff and the folks around me that my sphere of influence has, at least the best part of me every time I can work. And so I think daily for me it's a mental preparation, but also, you know, prepping for the day of the day of, from a leadership perspective, because my leadership role is very different now than what it was when you're active duty, when you're sitting at Grand Canyon University as a dean or assistant dean, right? Your influence is very different.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:40So mentally you prepare yourself. What does that look like as far as like activity, right? So, are you taking care of yourself physically, so that you have the capacity to do more? Are you — I'm just curious, like, what does that look like when you say you're preparing yourself?Col. Mark Clifford 39:56I do a couple of things. I think in the morning when I get up, I have a cup of coffee, and we typically — my wife and I typically watch the news together. It is thinking about the impacts of what happens in our world, how that impacts our Academy. I don't think — there's very little ripple effect that gets to the cadet, but also understanding why what's happening in our world is important to a cadet. I always try to prepare myself for those conversations, just in case they come up, and they have come up in classes sometimes. But I just give my perspective more so. Physically, I hit the gym, I work in a gym, so my wife says I have no excuse, at least you better be in a gym using equipment. I physically do that, and then I try to make sure I walk through our gym and put pieces together, equipment together, and make sure the equipment's in place and ready for our cadets, and sometimes I box and stuff. I gotta stay sharp.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:01I was gonna ask, you know, how that you did with what was his name, the assistant coach at the time, Ray…
 
Col. Mark Clifford 41:06Ray Carter.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:07Yes, are you ever across in the ring with someone; with a cadet?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 41:12My first year, I did. My last year, I let the young captains and majors do that. I realized that my mind will say do something — move out the way. I don't move out the way as quick as I used to, but I think I do.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:27Then you feel that you didn’t.
Col. Mark Clifford 41:12Exactly. I didn’t. Never let the cadets know they got you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:33That's funny. All right, I want to ask you one more question. What's something, if you could have a conversation with young Mark as a cadet today, what would you tell yourself?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 41:44I think the one thing I would tell myself is, trust the process, be the best that you can be, where you are, and where you're playing it, and do that to the best of your ability, and then shake off the negativity and the nonsense. I had some great friends here, but also some friends that didn't want to be here either, and so you feed off that negativity. I think that got into who I was, especially as a young cadet, because some of that negativity that probably kept me from being my best in certain areas, especially academically, especially militarily, because I think if I were able to do that, maybe my outcome probably would have been on the same trajectory, but also it would have been more positive experience,
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:27Less painful for sure.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 42:29Yeah, not chasing other things, trying to get your tape out, go recruit somewhere else. You're happy where you are, you're doing the best that you can, and it's going to be challenging, tough. And understand that you're going to take some losses, that's what this place is about. It's not always going to be a win, because in life, it's not always a win. And if you can bounce back from a loss, at some point it took me two years, in that third year, I bounced back in the loss to get that W, life becomes very, very easy. Yeah, you kind of figured out, so that's what I tell myself to prepare myself a little better.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:05No, that's excellent. What's something that we didn't talk about today that you would really like to make sure that we share?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 43:11I think we kind of talked about it, family, my family, my wife's been my rock for almost 30 years, we’re on 29 this year, we're going on 30. We've got two boys that say they don't want to be in the military, I don't want to move. My oldest son is not in the military, he's moved three times since he graduated college two years ago. And then the youngest one, who didn't want to do it, would join officer training school in July.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:34Congratulations!
 
Col. Mark Clifford 43:35Yeah, super-proud. He's taking an eight-week route, not the five-year route. So, I don't know if he's smarter, I don't know how to play that one, but you know, I can't say enough about making sure that your family supports what you do. I could not have been as successful or do the things that I was able to do in the Air Force without my wife Elise and my two boys, Caleb and Jaden, without their support, because there were some tough times when you're deployed and you're gone and you just need that rock to make sure that the household is good, so you focus on your job while you're gone and be home in your home, and she made sure that we did that when we had opportunities, and she also, no matter where we went, made sure it was a home, and so I'm thankful for that, because the boys always had home versus places that we had to move to, right, and like you said, we have some good ones, thankfully.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:29Well, it sounds like you also have translated that, bringing that that Elise has brought to your family, to your boxing family. I mean, I think when cadets are there, they're home away, this is home away from home, right? And maybe not all of them have father figures or leaders in their lives, and it sounds like you kind of taken that mantle, placed it right there.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 44:47I tried, I tried. You know, we talked about this before we started, but I'm gonna push them hard. Make sure that they exceed that level of physicality and mentality that they think they can, because they will exceed it and be able to perform when it's time to perform. And I love it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:07Well, Mark, this has been amazing — Coach Clifford, I mean. What you're doing at the program, I mean, you started with you, right, embedded in you, and now you're taking it to the next level. What I learned today in your leadership lessons are those things that you've battled with in the ring, you're bringing out in life, whether in uniform, out of uniform, and you're not only sharing it with those that have been directly on your team, but those that may join your team. You know, we just talked about those basic cadets. So, what I really appreciate about you is you're willing to be there in that with them, celebrating their wins and helping them navigate those losses. So, thanks for being an incredible leader, and thanks for being on Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for investing your time, and for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. I encourage you to share this episode with others who are on their own leadership journey. You can find this and all our conversations wherever you get your podcasts, or at longblueleadership.org. Until next time, I'm Naviere Walkewicz.
 
KEYWORDSLeadership development, servant leadership, transformational leadership, competitive mindset, resilience, mental toughness, accountability, team culture, coaching and mentoring, leading by example, emotional intelligence, authenticity, character development, warrior ethos, growth mindset, discipline, perseverance, decision-making, ethical leadership, influencing without authority, role modeling, performance under pressure, purpose-driven leadership, mentorship, building trust, developing potential, talent identification, culture change, officer development, military leadership, sports leadership, motivation, intrinsic motivation, ownership, responsibility, humility, continuous improvement, self-reflection, family support, work-life integration, peer influence, values-based leadership, strategic thinking, adaptability, handling failure, bouncing back from setbacks, high standards, excellence, preparation, focus, commitment, dedication.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 

Leadership isn’t about perfection — it’s about accountability, especially when things don’t go as planned.
SUMMARY
From lessons learned as a cadet to leading her teams through complex challenges, Col. (Ret.) Erin Staine-Pyne ’98 reflects on how transparency, empathy and trust define strong leadership in uncertain moments.
 
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ERIN STAINE-PYNE'S TOP LEADERSHIP LESSONS AND TAKEAWAYS 
Own your mistakes quickly and fully. Col. Staine-Pyne’s cadet party incident shows the power of taking responsibility and using failure as a positive turning point.
Forgive fast — others and yourself. Col. Staine-Pyne highlights forgiving herself and the freshman who reported the incident as essential to moving forward productively instead of getting stuck in blame or resentment. Lead with transparency, especially in crisis. Both as a cadet and as a wing commander during COVID, she emphasized open communication.
Be visibly human and vulnerable. Sharing personal context built trust and showed airmen she understood their fears, not just the mission. Practice empathy as a core leadership “superpower.” Col. Staine-Pyne stresses learning to truly understand people’s perspectives and lives — not just knowing their names and roles — and then leading with that understanding in mind.
Use your team; leadership is not a solo sport. From wing commander “tiger teams” to USAF Weapons School class dynamics, Col. Staine-Pyne consistently relied on senior enlisted leaders, peers, planners and classmates instead of trying to solve everything alone.
Balance mission and people with nuance, not slogans. During COVID and high-tempo ops, she wrestled with protecting a “no-fail” mission while also protecting health and morale and adjusting policies and workloads rather than defaulting to one extreme.
Don’t self-limit; say yes to stretch opportunities. Col. Staine-Pyne nearly ruled herself out of Weapons School but trusted her leaders’ belief in her and stepped into being the first woman in the school’s C‑130 program — and graduated at the top of her class. Her advice: Apply and let others say no.
Integrate work and family intentionally at critical career peaks. Instead of chasing perfect “balance,” Col. Staine-Pyne treats career and family as waves: Lean into work during when needed but consciously bring along family and use leave to truly refresh.
See failure as a leadership classroom, not a verdict. From the cadet party incident to the week‑to‑week swings in Weapons School performance, Col. Staine-Pyne views setbacks as information and training for better leadership, not as permanent labels.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:02 – Introducing Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 00:00:49 – Cadet Party Incident: A Costly Mistake 00:02:59 – Owning Failure & Learning to Forgive 00:04:49 – Transparency, Reputation and the Cadet Wing 00:06:59 – Early Aspirations & Family Influences 00:08:25 – Becoming a Wing Commander Right Before COVID 00:10:13 – Leading Through a Pandemic & Tough, Unpopular Decisions 00:15:02 – Personal Impact of Command During COVID 00:17:01 – Mentors, Humility & Weapons School Opportunity 00:20:59 – Inside Weapons School: Pressure, Teamwork & Distinction 00:25:44 – Empathy, Tempo and the People‑Mission Balance 00:29:10 – Work–Life Waves, Legacy and Advice to Young Leaders
ABOUT COL. ERIN STAINE-PYNE ’98
BIO
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne, U.S. Air Force Academy Class of 1998, is a career mobility aviator and proven senior leader with more than 3,500 flight hours in C-17 and C-130 aircraft, former wing commander, and now general manager of mobility at Merlin Labs. Inspired early by a love of aviation and a father who graduated from West Point, she pursued her dream of flying through the Academy and went on to become an aircraft commander, instructor and, ultimately, the first woman to graduate from the C-130 division of the Air Force Weapons School, where she distinguished herself as the top graduate in her class. Her leadership journey includes commanding a 2,400-person C-17 wing at Joint Base Lewis-McChord through the onset of the COVID pandemic, where she balanced a no-fail nuclear mission, the health and welfare of her airmen and their families, and her own complex family responsibilities with transparency, empathy and a deeply human approach. Known for her team-first mindset, humility and emphasis on learning from failure — as illustrated by formative experiences as a cadet and throughout her operational career — Col. Staine-Pyne now channels her leadership, operational expertise and passion for developing others into bridging military-grade mobility experience with cutting-edge aviation technology in industry, while prioritizing her role as a fully present mom.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPTSPEAKERS:
Guest, Erin Staine-Pyne ’98  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Well, Erin, thank you so much for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. Erin Staine-Pyne, Class of ’98. We are so excited for this conversation, because, you know, you've had such an amazing career. You know, 3,500 hours in the C-17 and C-130 cockpits to wing commander — and now you’re general manager of mobility at Merlin Labs. Just incredible.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 0:26Thank you. Such a pleasure to be with you, too, Naviere.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34Well, you know, we like to jump right in. And there's actually something that is probably unknown, because you have done so many amazing things, and part of that comes with a story that's not always, you know, rainbows and butterflies. And so back when you were a cadet, if you don't mind sharing this with us, I know you were wearing your supt’s pin. You were captain of the soccer team, and you found yourself marching some tours. Do you mind sharing that story with us?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 0:55Yeah, no, I don't mind at all, because it turned out to be a great leadership lesson in my life. So yeah, I was kind of at the top of my game, I felt like in my senior year at the Academy, we had a short break going in our soccer season, we had a weekend off, which was pretty rare, and the other captain and I were like, Hey, let's get the girls together, right? We deserve to have a little bit of fun. Take a little break. Like, what could we do to make that happen? And we decided, hey, let's rent a hotel room. We'll throw a little party. We'll have some friends over. What cadets haven't done that exactly. We'll be super responsible. We'll get the hotel room so nobody drives. Yeah, we thought about taking care of each other, but as it turned out, we had a great night, fun time, no harm, no foul. But later that week, we found out that one of the freshmen on our team turned us in for underage drinking. And that was a big, shocking moment in my senior year. So it turned into most of the team being restricted, marching tours, you know, really having their reputation tarnished a bit. And even worse for us, maybe than that, was the season took a huge nosedive. You know, we were in a really good place from a from a sport perspective, and we just couldn't get it back together after that happened. And for me, you know, as I looked back on that event, I'm so thankful that it happened at the Academy and not sometime later in my career, when I was in charge of young airmen, but I'm glad it happened at the Academy and I took a couple of really great lessons out of it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:44That is quite a lesson. I mean, I'm just thinking about someone who is a high achiever doing really well, has this reputation of that's, like you said, untarnished. Let's just take a moment in that space, because there are experiences that all leaders have, I think that are challenging in some way, that maybe is reputational. How do you navigate that? How did you carry yourself through that, when it probably felt dark?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 3:11Yeah it was a little bit bleak. I mean, my family knew about it. But to answer the question, I found myself taking ownership, like, “Ooh, we made a really big mistake. I made a really big mistake as a leader. I took the team the wrong direction.” And so I apologized — like I apologized to the commandant, I apologized to my coaches, I apologized to my teammates, I apologized to some of their parents too, right, that we saw later in the season. And so I think the biggest thing that you can do in that moment is go, “I've really screwed up, and I'll take stock of that and change in the future.” And then the other thing is, you have to learn to forgive fast, like forgive yourself. I made a mistake. This isn't forever, right? It'll be something that I learned along the journey. But then also, for example, the freshmen that turned us in — that was a really emotional moment for the rest of the team.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:17And you all stayed on the team together?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 4:18We did for a while. She did end up leaving the Academy eventually, which I'm disappointed about. Like, I kind of feel like that's a little bit of another leadership failure there. But I just think the thing I learned out of it later was you have to forgive quickly.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:33Wow. I mean, it seems so interesting that you had that kind of lesson so early. But I think one of the best things about the academy is really as a leadership lab we talk about, you know, being able to grow from learning lessons. How would you say your other cadets outside of the bubble? Right? The bubble being those who are in it with you. Because I think in life in general, when things happen, you kind of have this other perspective of people who don't know what's going on, and so then they come up with their own perceptions and thoughts on that. How did you navigate that as a cadet in the Cadet Wing?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 5:09Yeah, I think it was trying at my first attempts at transparency, yeah, you know, like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” Like, people would ask us, “How much trouble are you guys in?” And at first we'd be like, “Well, we don't really know.” You know? “We don't know what this is going to turn out to look like,” and then once we kind of got our punishment, six months of restriction, 100 tours, 100 confinements, but with the potential, at least for the seniors to still graduate, we tried to share that with people too, like as if the leadership at the Academy still had some faith in us and thought we might still be able to graduate and be lieutenants someday. So, yeah, I would just say we tried some transparency. And, you know, there was also this kind of feeling of, I can't believe that your teammate did that. And we tried to address that too, you know, so it wouldn't come back, especially specifically on her right, as, you know, she was the one at fault here, right, like we were all at fault, you know, not doing the right thing.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:14What a way to rise above. And I think really, what a beautiful story. Because I think some lessons in there, transparency, making sure that it, you know, it was responsibility that everyone took on, and it wasn't starting to point fingers. Because I think it certainly is easy to try and push things away from ourselves, isn't it?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 6:30Yeah, absolutely,
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:31Oh, my goodness, thank you for sharing that. I'm sure that was quite a lesson. So you went on to graduate. Yes, yes. And so did you always know you wanted to be a pilot?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 6:43I did. Yeah, since I was really young, I knew I wanted to fly airplanes. My parents sent me to Space Academy when I was somewhere around 11 or 12, and I thought, “Oh, I could be an astronaut. Someday, I want to fly the shuttle.” And so that just sparked the interest. And my dad's a West Point grad, and so when I went to him and asked him, “How do you become a pilot?” He said, “Well, you go to the Air Force Academy,” as if there was no other choice out there.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:10So did you not even apply to West Point?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:11I didn't. Much to his — I mean, I think that hurt his heart, but I didn't. He took me up there for a visit.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:19Just in case you want to just see.Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:20Yeah, the Army has lots of pilots. Yes, no, the Air Force Academy was my destination.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:25That is fascinating. So growing up, were you always someone that was a go-getter? Was this kind of ingrained in you because of your dad the way he raised you? Your mom, like, let's talk about your family dynamic.Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:35And yeah, sure, yeah. My dad an army officer. My mom, super hard worker. Worked in the Senate for a long time as a press secretary, and they just — yeah, they were they were wonderful, and I feel so lucky at the dynamic I had growing up. But yeah, I loved being a leader early, like I loved being in charge early. I could sense that about myself, like I wanted to be the person who helped others get to wherever they were going to. So I sensed that early.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:08Oh, gosh, that's fascinating. So you went to the Air Force Academy, you came out, you got to go and you got to fly, and you're living your dream. I'd like to jump fast forward a bit, because in your leadership role, obviously, you know, as a pilot, you were doing some amazing things, and we can certainly talk about that. But there was a period of time in which you were a wing commander.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 8:28Oh, sure.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:30And I think you know, being a wing commander already is an amazing feat, but you were a wing commander during a time that I think was unprecedented in our country, COVID.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 8:40Yeah, yeah, it was. It was an interesting time. I took the flag for Joint Base Lewis-McChord in early January 2020 and literally a month later, I was dealing with the first cases of COVID in Seattle, in the Seattle area. And so it went from being like, “This is everything I've worked really hard for and I am so excited to lead this amazing organization” to “I have never done anything like this before. No one has, and no one really has a whole lot of advice on what we're going to do next, and we're going to have to figure this out.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22So can you put it in perspective a little bit, just for us to understand? You know, when you're a wing commander, like, how large is this wing and kind of, what are the responsibilities that you were having to oversee while you're navigating a medical crisis?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 9:34Yeah, so the wing is about 2,400 airmen. It's a C-17 wing, and so mobility operations never stop, right? Twenty-four hours a day, we're flying airplanes. I also had a clinic at the time, and then an airfield to run. Yeah, so a few things.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:53Yes, just a couple. Oh, my goodness. OK, so maybe let's, let's talk about what that was like. Because I imagine, as a wing commander, while you do have a network in the way of working with your ,you know, those that are supporting you and all the experts, it still can be, probably be a little bit lonely. How do you navigate that? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 10:13Yeah, well, I think a lot of people say that right, leadership is lonely, and I think it is in the context that at the end of the day, you're the person who has to make those final, tough decisions, no one else can make them for you, right? But the truth is, you have the most amazing a team around you, right? I had, during my time as a wing commander, two of the most amazing seniorenlisted leaders, two chiefs. My group commanders, also colonels, were really, really incredible and experienced. And then the wing commander network is actually pretty powerful too. So you have peers that you've grown up with as squadron commanders who are now in charge of other wings dealing with similar things. And so you lean into that too.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:00Well, we talk about networks in general mean, I think networks are so powerful, not even just in uniform, but outside of uniform. What was it like really trying to I think, when I think about the airmen that you were, you know, leading, they had their families and their own concerns as well. What was a challenging moment as a leader that you had to navigate, maybe where you weren't popular or did you feel like you actually navigated a space where everyone loved you?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 11:24No. I mean, unfortunately, at the end of the day, you do have to make some of those really tough decisions. And so for us at McChord, we were in the middle of the biggest movement of nuclear weapons in history, and so an incredibly important no fail mission, right? And so my main focus was, how do I keep, specifically my crews that are trained to carry nuclear weapons, how do I keep them healthy? We don't have a lot of them, so if a couple of them get sick or something happens, then the mission really is at risk. So I really was focused on how to keep them healthy, but I also was just broadly worried about my older civilians who might be more susceptible to either getting COVID or having a real impact from it. I was worried about my airmen who had family members who might be immune compromised. I was worried about airmen who might go home and take it to their parents or grandparents. So it wasn't quite as simple as, “Well, our airmen are young and healthy.” You know, it's a much more challenging problem than that. And so when COVID was really bad, kind of the fall going into Christmas of 2020, one of the things I had to do was decide, am I going to let my airmen travel? The Air Force would eventually take care of that decision for me. But when the airmen are here, can they get together and celebrate the holidays? Are they going to have to spend Thanksgiving alone? You know, what kind of tough decisions am I going to have to make here? And so, yeah, I probably made some pretty unpopular decisions, thinking at the time that I was protecting the mission, and the way I handled it was it kind of goes back to one of those lessons I learned earlier, was transparency. Yes, we started doing things like Facebook Live, we let people ask as many questions as they wanted to or were brave enough to. And tried to do our best to answer them. And we also tried to convey that we know we're not making perfect decisions right now, like we're learning to right now. And just tried to be very human about it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:42What an amazing approach, a human approach. And I think what's so great about the way you did that was most people only see the struggle from their lens, yeah. And as a leader, you're having to look at the if I make this decision, what's the second, third and fourth, you know, effect that comes from that decision on a much broader scale. And so I think when you talked about the transparency, that is really powerful.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 14:04And it was a great way to get feedback too. You know, I, like some of my young airmen were struggling at the time, but actually it was some of my single officers, even who, you know, didn't quite have that family network around them where they were. And so we realized we had to pay attention to some other groups too, as we tried to think of ways to make sure we were taking care of the individual, but also the mission.
 
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:33My goodness. I mean, I just think about it, the standpoint of the weight that you carried in that space. How did it impact you on the home front, right? So you're leading up a wing, but you also have a family as well. What did that look like that?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 14:45It was a challenging time. I had a 2-year-old at home, right? And at certainly, at the beginning of COVID, we didn't know what the impact kids was going to be, and so I was worried that she might be really vulnerable at that time. And my husband, who was also an Academy grad, his parents were living with us at the time, helping with the baby, and his dad had cancer. And so we were incredibly concerned about even me going to work every day, and the possibility of bringing something back to the house was a huge challenge. There was a time where I would enter through the garage and, like, strip down, put new clothes on, or go straight to a shower.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:31Like a hazmat.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 15:32Yeah. I mean, it was a really interesting time at the beginning. So many unknowns. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:37Oh, my goodness. Well, I think most people can understand when I said hazmat, like hazardous materials and clearing yourself from it. But in a way, that's kind of what, how COVID did impact us. Wow. When you were talking in those moments as almost looks like a human and vulnerable leader in that approach, did you share, like, “Look, I understand these things as well, because I, too, have a family.” Did you — were those the ways you were…Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 15:58Yes, absolutely. So anytime I got a chance to talk to airmen face to face, I would talk to them about how I'm my focus is certainly accomplishing our mission, but my focus is on their health, their family's health, and this is how I'm thinking about it, right? I'm thinking about my own family and the different dynamics we have going on, and how it might apply to them too. And I love the fact that before that, you would never have seen a wing commander doing something like a Facebook Live. But that just became such an incredible tool for that exact reason.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:33Yes, so just thinking about the way you handled that, was there someone in your life, a mentor, or someone that you saw kind of display those traits that you emulated, or were they just something that you innately had in you?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 16:44No, I'm sure I picked up on traits from multiple leaders that I had throughout my career. Col. John Murkowski is probably one of my favorite mentors. He was a DO in my first squadron…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:00Director of operations.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:02Thank you; in my first squadron. And later I would work and work for him as a staff officer at Air Mobility Command. And I watched him lead, just with so much humility, very caring leadership style and certainly a good communicator. And you know, somebody like that is somebody you want to emulate in the future.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:25Absolutely. And if I recall correctly, he's the one I think that might have turned your eye open to this concept of Air Force Weapons School, right?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:33It's true.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:35Let's talk about that a little bit. Because so for those listening and watching, you know, I was not an aviator, I was a logistics officer. And so I think even the thought of Weapons School, to me, is very much a pilot and aviation focused opportunity. Can we just talk a little bit about that in general, just so that we all can learn more about Weapons School? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:54Yeah, I mean, certainly the history of the weapons school is focused on fighter operations. Right? The fighter pilot employing weapons being a tactical expert leading operations. That's how it started. But I think one of the best things the Air Force ever did was realize that in order to be successful in modern combat, you have to have a force that's integrated. So you need your intel officers to understand and provide information to the entire the entire force. You need space officers who can employ space effects at the right time. You need more than just the person in the flight deck or cockpit who's employing the weapons. So they somewhere in the ’90s, right? We branched out. It started, certainly Intel officers were part of it for a long time, but it branched out into the mobility communities, and then later you would see it branch out into the space communities too.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:53So it was early and not very long before this opportunity was presented to you. Let's talk about that. Because had you, I know you had your site set on being a pilot. Were your site set on Weapons School?Erin Staine-Pyne 19:04Never, never. No, I think — I felt, at least at that point, I felt really young in my career, still, right? I was an aircraft commander at the time. I wasn't an instructor in my weapons system yet. I wasn't an evaluator in my weapons system yet. And my director of operations came to me and said, “We want you to apply to weapons school.” And I was like, “I'm pretty young for that,
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:30And it’s very competitive, right?
 
Erin Staine-Pyne 19:31It's very competitive. And the weapons officers in my squadron were like, they like, walked on water. Seemed like. They're so knowledgeable. So I hadn't really thought about it mostly in terms of time, like what it didn't seem like the right time for me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:50So what made you say yes to apply?
 
Erin Staine-Pyne 19:53Yeah, I think, I think it was really two things. One was clearly my leadership believed in me, and that was hugely powerful, right? Somebody comes to you and says, “No, we think you are ready for this.” That was hugely powerful. And then the other thing is, they also said to me, “You would be the first woman to go through the C-130 program. We've never had a female graduate.” And I said, “Well, that's ridiculous.” Like, why is that still a barrier right now? And so I thought, “Well, if not me, then who?” Like, who's going to be the next woman who might be interested in that opportunity? And so I kind of threw a little caution to the wind I feel like, and said, “OK, let's do this.”
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:43What is that experience like? Because I know what it's like to apply to apply to the Air Force Academy. You know, you have this, the program you're going through when you're getting, you know, your weapon system up that you're going to get in pilot training. What is it like, this application process for Weapons School?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 20:57Yeah, so I remember you have to fill out a bunch of forms.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:00OK, so that's pretty similar.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 21:03Yeah, annotated paperwork. You have to fill out a bunch of forms, but on the forms, you have to talk about your flying experience and all the things you know. You have to have certain boxes checked, if you will. And so I remember filling out the form. They're like, “You have to have 100 hours as an instructor pilot.” And I'm like, “I don't have that, you know, but we'll plan to have accomplished prior to Weapons School starting,” Um, so yeah, I remember filling out the form and just being like, “OK, this kind of confirms I'm not sure I'm ready for this.”
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35But obviously yes. So how many people are — maybe the word is accepted — into Weapons School class, and then how many typically graduate? Like, what's the attrition rate?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 21:45Yeah, so each platform is different on how many students they take. Typically in a C-130 class, you would have somewhere around eight or nine students and you're probably going to lose perhaps one per class.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:03OK, the numbers are small to begin with; that's kind of significant.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:04Significant, yeah. If the class isn't making it through, every once in a while, you'll lose two and that's a challenge. It's a challenge to run the program without enough students, too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:15OK, so how long is that?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:16It's a six-month program, OK, or maybe five and a half months approximately. So it's a pretty big chunk of your flying life to go to training for that long too.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:27So let's talk about that, because there was probably some growth in yourself as a leader. One feeling like you weren't actually ready, then you were accepted. So then you're clearly ready, but you know, you're navigating it, and almost enough in a first kind of capacity. What was it like from growing as a leader in Weapons School?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:43Yeah, it was. It was just the perfect example of how obstacles can be opportunities, you know? And like, I talked to some of my younger airmen now and I tell them, “Don't ever turn down an opportunity, because you never know when that opportunity is going to be the thing that that really propels your career or changes what you're interested in, or leads you down a really interesting path.” And so I walked in the door, and I certainly was a little bit nervous, and perhaps had a chip on my shoulder about being the first woman to go through the program.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:18Tell me what you mean by that. Chip on your shoulder. Chip on — you're like, “Why hasn't it happened yet?” Or chip on — like, “I have something to prove.”
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 23:24Yeah, maybe I have something to prove, you know, like that, “I'm good enough to be here.” And what I learned, though, is, as soon as the program started, and I actually met the instructors and the people, you know, my classmates, the people that I'd be going through the program with, is it was completely unnecessary. They wanted nothing more than me to be, you know, wildly successful in the program. And so it just turned out to be such an opportunity and such a great experience.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:56And I'm going to mention this because I'm sure that you won't, you end up being the top graduate from your Weapons School class. What did that look like through the program? You know? How did you earn that? And was it from different things you demonstrated as a leader? Like, what brought that forth?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 24:14Yeah, I think, certainly it's especially in the Air Force flying communities, like you have to do the work yourself, right? It's hard work. You have to study. There's a lot of academics, but I think at the end of the day, what's really important is that you understand that the team dynamics. You know you're going through the weapon school with eight or another eight or nine other people. Are you the person who sits down and helps somebody out when you're good at something and they're not? Are you the person who recognizes what the other teammates are really good at and take advantage of that? It's really about learning those individuals and building the team dynamics up that makes you successful in a program like that.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:00Erin, I'm just thinking back on all the things that you've shared with me, just in the way that you are such a team minded person. You know at the Academy, you were the team captain. You know at weapons school, you're, you know, the distinguished graduate. That what they call graduate, yes, and so wing commander. I mean, I think there's this theme. What would you say is probably that most important characteristic that you carry then as a leader?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 25:28Yeah, it's, I feel like maybe this is a broken record with some other leaders, but I think it's empathy. I really do. I think one of the things I think about back to my Air Force Academy experience, is, you know, I had freshmen I was responsible for as a sophomore, or I had teammates I was responsible for as a team captain, and did I really get to know them? Like I knew them. But did I really get to know them? Could I really walk in their shoes for a little bit and practice empathy for them? And so it took me a long time to learn, like, what a skill it is to be able to see something from somebody else's perspective, and how you can use that when you're leading. But I'd say it now: It's a superpower.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:14When have you found in your career that that could be really challenging, like the knowing that's such an important fabric in your being a leader but also having to balance the mission right? Can you share a story or anything? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 26:29Yeah, I really can. So one of the things that was challenging at McChord was our tempo, right? We were really busy, especially in certain mission areas, and so I could see the strain on some of my airmen. And the question is, how far can you push right like, how far can you push before it's too far and they really get unhealthy? And so I found myself — because I certainly feel empathetic towards them, I've been the person on the road all the time — I felt myself wanting to go to my MAJCOM and say, “You guys have to slow down for us, like you have to give us a little bit less mission.” And yet, at the time, they needed us to do more, you know. And so really trying to get into the details about how much workload can we sustain? How can we find different ways to share the workload across the wing that maybe we haven't thought of before? I found myself trying to find alternate ways to balance those two things that were really ahead with each other.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:41Was that something that you had the opportunity to talk through or work through with someone, or is this something that you really kind of just had to dig in internally and figure out?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 27:52Yeah, no, it's a perfect example of digging into the team, right? Bringing the team back together. I had a great ops group commander who really understood the challenge. I had a planner who was the person who would really plan out the sortie pace, who really understood the challenge, and had great contacts at Air Mobility Command, like, No, I mean, we would bring a tiger team together to try to figure this out. And my job at that time was to give direction, remove obstacles out of the way, but then really let them at their expert level, dig in and try to come up with some solutions.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:29That's fantastic. The team effort, everyone just kind of rallying around. So I'm curious on —because of the tempo of the roles you've had to be in and lead and experiences you've had, how has that impacted you? Your ability to be present with your family? How do you navigate that as a leader? Because I think that's something that leaders struggle with, like, how far do I go myself, and where am I willing to, you know, let things kind of go to the back burner.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 28:54Yeah, I think it's one of the hardest challenges out there, right? People talk about work-life balance. I'm probably of the ilk that I don't really think there's a such a thing, right? I think it's more of a like a sine wave curve, where you pay attention to your career at those really critical times that you need to and then when there's an opportunity to kind of, you know, pull the throttles back, you do it. And if you learn that early in your career, that there are those peaks and valleys, you can build a healthy career over time. So I would find that certainly, anytime you're in a leadership position, right, squadron commander, flight commander, wing commander, those are going to be the times when you're right at the top and right, you've got to find ways to incorporate your family into the job. Yes, what I would tell you, and then the other times you can focus more on what they want to do. But yeah, when I was a commander, I would — my husband was fully involved in the squadron. When I was a wing commander, I had a Pack n’ Play in my office right for my little one, because I wanted to make sure I got plenty of time with her too, and I would find ways to incorporate that too, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:08And you actually showed that human side in leadership.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 30:11Yeah. And I wanted my airmen to see it, to see that, you know, I wasn't all the time Air Force blue. We gotta go, go, go. No, I've got to find ways to make both of those things work
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:25
In all those times when you were leading others, and, you know, working in a partnership with Frank, your husband and your family, when did you find time to take care of you? Like, what did that look like for you?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 30:36It was hard, it was hard, but I think what I did was I tried to find the things that gave me the most pleasure and prioritize those. So for me, it was, for example, I'm a soccer player, right? Anytime we were assigned to D.C., I joined my indoor soccer team and played soccer on the weekends, you know, or sometimes it was just curling up and reading a good book that had nothing to do with military. Like, finding some pleasure in the small things I do think we scheduled. Like, I never gave leave back. I think that's really important. That is such an importan — I always took advantage of my leave. And I would plan big things for it too, like, we're gonna go to Hawaii, or we're going to go to Europe, you know, we're going to do things and experience something else. So we have some of those really fun things to look back on. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:33And when you took that leave, I'm curious, how did you navigate that space? As I'm a leader, am I reachable? Or what does that look like when you're on vacation?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 31:41Yeah, I think you have to be reachable. Yes. I mean, unfortunately, sometimes there are just things that happen that you have to be reachable. But I think you also try to set an expectation that the person running your squadron or your wing or your, you know, whatever organization it is, that they understand when those moments are like, “You're not calling me for the small things. You're calling me because something big has happened and it requires my attention.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:11No, that's perfect. So I'm as I'm thinking about your career, what is probably had been the most maybe rewarding, I'll give you an option, either, like, the most rewarding experience you've had as a leader, or maybe the most challenging, because I think, like, those kind of, you know, two ends of the spectrum really kind of forge us as leaders at times.Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 32:30Yeah, well, I'll tell you what the most rewarding is, because it's really fun. It's actually, it actually still happens now is, like, the other day, I got a note from one of one of my he was a staff sergeant when he was in my squadron, and he reaches out to me, he says, he's retiring, and could I come to his retirement? And, “Hey, you were the best squadron commander I ever had in my 20-year career.” You know, something like a piece of feedback like that, like I could sustain on that for a really long time, that that and that you made an impact in somebody's life, right? And they remember maybe some of the leadership traits you exemplified and used them themselves in their career. I just think that's like the full professional, complete loop.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:15Wow, what a perfect way to take us here. Because one of the things I like to ask all of my guests on Long Blue Leadership is, What is something you are doing every day to be better? I mean, you talked about, you know, how you kind of lean into, you know, those moments and really celebrate them and be reachable, etc. But I'm curious, what are you doing every day?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 33:32Yeah, I love this question, actually. So it made me reflect, “Am I doing something every day that will actually continue my own self-improvement?” And I think the answer is yes, but to be honest, right now, it's really focused somewhat inward on my family. Yeah. So I'm at that point in my career where I've spent a lot of time giving to the military, to the service, to whatever objective it was, and so today I am trying to be the best mom that I possibly can every single day. So I'll read a blog, a book, I'll talk to other moms, collaborate with her teachers. I'm really focused on trying to make sure I'm fully present as a mother, since I have the opportunity, because I was a little late to motherhood.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:22Well, I mean, it sounds like a beautiful way to fill your own cup, right? Oh, I love that. Well, the other question we like to ask is, if you could turn back time and talk to your young self, or maybe just if you're thinking about cadets, and those who you know cadet hopeful is coming up and in, in today's day and age, what's something you would tell them to do now in the space they're in so they'll be better set up down the road?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 34:45Yeah, I would tell them not to self-limit. Like, don't — if you think about something that you want to do in your career, or if you think about an idea that is possible, but maybe you think right now, you know nobody would support it or whatever. Don't self-limit. Like, go after it and be willing to take risks in that career space too. So there's so much that a single airman can do in this service, and there are senior leaders who want airmen who are kind of bold and willing to take risk and really reach their full potential. So yeah, don't self-limit.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:26What does that look like? Like, what does — I mean the idea of saying to myself, “OK, like, I'm just going to be really open to things.” Or, how do you put that into practice?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 35:33I think it means, if you want to apply for a program and you're like, “I'm not sure I'm going to get that.” Apply, right? Apply. If you are worried about going to pilot training and washing out, don't be like — go through it again. The system is designed now to really help you get through those programs and those experiences. So don't just, don't rule anything out in your own mind beforeyou know, let somebody else do the ruling out for you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04Thank you for, I think, just expanding on that, because, you know, I think we can always look back, we know we're wiser and older now, right? And understand that. But I think actually, you made it so practical, and actually how you really do live that way. Yeah, thank you for that.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 36:17Yeah, absolutely.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:18Oh gosh. Erin, I mean, this has been incredible. Has there been anything in your leadership journey that we haven't talked about that you would really love to share? Because I want to make want to make sure we have that time with you.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 36:27Yeah, I mean, you really hit some of the highlights, for sure. I just I've been so lucky to be part of so many great teams along the journey, and it's so interesting to see where you learn the biggest leadership lessons from, my opinion, is it hasn't necessarily been from some of those big successes. It's definitely been from the failures along the way. And so I just, I think seeing failure is that opportunity is really important.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:57We talked about your cadet failure. Was there any other one in your, you know, in your professional career, post-graduation, that you did see?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 37:04I mean, I'm sure there were, yeah. I mean, Weapons School itself is a lesson in failing on a you know? One week you're completely failing, the instructors tell you how terrible you're doing, and the next week you're like, crushing it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:19Sounds like basic training a little bit.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 37:22A little bit, right? It's definitely emotional. And so, yeah, I just, I think there are lots of examples of “I know I didn't get it exactly right this time, and I'm just going to build on that for next time.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:36Oh, gosh. Well, thank you. I one of my favorite things about this time with you, Erin, is how you've navigated your career, but you've done it just even being in this room, like your smile is just effervescent. I have loved being in this room with you. Some of the lessons that I've taken away throughout this entire conversation: being transparent, being human. Just, I've seen it in just the work that we do together here at the Association & Foundation. I'm looking forward to seeing it in, you know, in this role that you're now with, with Merlin Lab, but I know you're going to be successful and the people that will get to work with you will just be thrilled, and will grow from that too.Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 38:10Yeah, thanks, Naviere. I love what you're doing with the Long Blue Leadership podcast, with all the Association events. I really think you're helping to connect future leaders and current leaders, and I just think that's so important for what we're doing today. So thank you for what you're doing too.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:29Thank you. Well, I just taken it from some of the lessons you were talking about. Meet them where they are, right? So that's what we're doing. Well, I want to thank you all for joining us today on Long Blue Leadership. You know, Erin Staine-Pyne, Class of ’98 — she trained me, so you know I'm going to be good — But you know, the lessons permeate no matter where you are in your leadership career. Be human, be transparent, be present and then remember that your career, I think how you said it kind of on these waves. And so, you know, do what you need to do in the moment. You need to do them. And I think as long as you take care of yourself and take care of your people, you're going to be successful. So thank you again for joining us.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 39:05Thank you.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:06And thank you for joining us on Long Blue Leadership. Until next time, I’m Naviere Walkewicz.
 
KEYWORDS
Air Force leadership, military leadership lessons, leadership failure, overcoming failure, accountability in leadership, transparency in leadership, empathy in leadership, leading through crisis, leadership during pandemic, mission versus people balance, building strong teams, mentoring airmen, women military leaders, professional development, resilience in leadership.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 

Sometimes leadership is modeled in small ways — like leaving work at 4 p.m. and meaning it. Not because the job’s done — but because you’re showing your team that life outside of work matters too.
SUMMARY
In this Long Blue Leadership podcast, Mark Michalek ’99, human capital director for the FBI, shares leadership tips for more resilient teams.
 
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MARK'S TOP LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
1. Transforming trauma into purpose
Turning childhood loss and adversity into a lifelong calling in public safety, service and leadership
2. Post-traumatic growth vs. post-traumatic stress
Reframing exposure to trauma as a potential catalyst for growth, resilience and deeper empathy in leaders
3. Whole-person leadership
Leading people as complete humans — on duty, off duty, past and present — rather than just as job roles
4. Mental fitness as performance, not weakness
Positioning counseling, wellness and psychological support as tools to optimize performance, not signs of failure
5. Modeling the behavior you want to see
Leaders leaving at 4 p.m. for family, openly seeing counselors and visibly prioritizing health to give others “permission” to do the same
6. Leading in high-consequence environments
Staying the “steady hand to land the plane” during crises like mass casualty events, while empowering experts on the ground
7. From doing the work to leading the work
Shifting from frontline case work (violent crime agent) to enterprise-level leadership that shapes culture and systems
8. The power of networks and extended family in uniform
Leveraging the Long Blue Line and law enforcement community as a lifelong support, mentorship and resilience network
9. Discipline, recovery and sustainable performance
Rest, running and intentional unplugging as essential leadership disciplines — not optional extras
10. Long-view leadership and legacy
Seeing careers (military, FBI) as chapters, focusing on integrity, service and excellence, and building organizations your kids would proudly join
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:30 – Early Life and Father’s Suicide
00:02:00 – Finding an Extended Family in Law Enforcement
00:03:00 – Civil Air Patrol, Flying and the Path to USAFA
00:04:15 – Cadet Years, Setbacks and First Responder Leadership
00:07:25 – Choosing Security Forces and First Leadership in Nuclear Convoys
00:09:45 – From Military to FBI: Mental Fitness and Post-Traumatic Growth
00:15:15 – Balancing Family, Leadership Loneliness and Modeling Self-Care
00:19:15 – Leading Through Crisis: Inside the Boulder Attack Response
00:27:30 – Lessons, Legacy and Advice for Future Leaders
 
ABOUT MARK
BIO
Mark Michalek is a senior leader in the Federal Bureau of Investigation, currently serving as human capital director, a role to which he was appointed by Pam Bondi, former U.S. attorney general. In this capacity, Michalek leads enterprise policy and strategy for human resources, security, internal affairs, compliance and training across the Bureau’s 38,000-person global workforce.
A 1999 graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, Michalek previously served as special agent in charge of the FBI’s Denver field office, where he oversaw operations throughout Colorado and Wyoming. He is the highest-ranking FBI special agent who is also a military veteran.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS
Guest, Mark Machalek ’99  |  Host, Lt. Col. (ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:11
Well, Mark, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is truly an honor, as your classmate, Class of ’99. We go back, gosh, 30 years.
 
Mark Michalek  0:18
It is so exciting to see you again and to be here at USAFA; to have this conversation is just priceless. So thank you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:27
Who knew we'd be doing this this many years?
 
Mark Michalek  00:28
That's right.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:31
Many may not know you've been in security forces as an active-duty officer, you went into the FBI, and you've really been in this public safety kind of realm. But we're going to dive in with, I think, a moment in time that really shaped you, and just in something I learned about you just recently. So you're 5 years old, and you shared with me that your dad actually, he took his life — death by suicide, right? And it shaped you in a way, when you're thinking about your role in public safety. Do you mind kind of sharing that with us?
 
Mark Michalek  01:00
When I was 5 years old, my dad died by suicide, and I was an only child, and he was my absolute hero. He was a local police officer, so my earliest memories of childhood were wearing his uniform and seeing the squad car and being around officers. And I think that really solidified my future in public safety.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  01:26
Your hero, something that you were exposed to. Tell me, as a 5-year-old, what did that start to look like? Where did you see that show up in, you know, in school, in your sports, like, just in the way you lived? How did, how did you navigate that?
 
Mark Michalek  01:40
So quickly I had an extended family. As I went to the playground and were around town, squad cars would show up,and police officers would come by and, you know, give me a pop or come in and check with me and see how I was doing and see how my mom was doing. And that really laid a foundation for me of a sense of an extended family of the police department being more than just a job in the balance of that. That sense of camaraderie and togetherness with the mission, I think, really shaped my childhood. I became very, very active. And I don't know if that was by design or divine intervention, or what, but it was kind of, you know, the object in motion stays in motion. I was on the run, literally on the run. Loved to run long distance. I quickly got into Civil Air Patrol as soon as I was old enough to do so, and got exposed to the Air Force that way. I got my private pilot's license at 17, I soloed before I got my driver's license and was destined to come to the Academy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  02:48
Wow. I mean, you were accomplishing so much so quickly. Were you always like that was, did you see others in your life like that? Was your dad that way?
 
Mark Michalek  02:59
It's interesting in retrospect, to see if that was inherited or that was kind of a response to the trauma. I kind of think it was a response. I'm the only person in my family to have moved outside of Flint, Michigan. So folks were very stable and stayed where they were, but I was just constantly moving. You know. As we're talking, I remember I was the youngest Red Cross CPR instructor for the county at 15. I formed a K-9 search-and-rescue unit for police departments to train dogs to help find missing people. And I guess that was just a response to what had happened, and it really planted a seed in me that life is short, and I've had this drive to just leave it all on the field, to keep moving forward, to do more and more, to be able to, you know, focus on public safety and to protect people.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  03:54
So you showed up at USAFA. You knew — you went to Civil Air Patrol and USAFA was in your sights. I remember you as a cadet, and you're always a go-getter as well. Let's talk about a little bit your cadet years, and maybe some of where you saw that evolution of yourself as a leader, but also maybe how it showed up through, you know, go-getting and continually pushing that.
 
Mark Michalek  04:16
My first setback was I wasn't initially accepted. I got a Falcon Foundation scholarship. And it was really a fork-in-the-road decision — “Do you kind of take a year off and go this route and reapply, or do you go another route?” I ended up going, obviously the Falcon Foundation route. Went to Marion Military Institute, and I'm so glad I did, because it set me up to be a cadet and to be in the same class as you. You know, that cadet experience is just such a sensory overload. I wasn't an athlete. I joke that my athletics were just kind of graduating, like I just needed to focus on academics and surviving the day. But then I started to see some kind of opportunities to give back. And I kind of see these themes throughout my life. Myself and two of our classmates formed the cadet first responder team back in ’97, I think. And that was really just, again, interest in public safety and a recognition that we needed some more kind of support for cadet-related activities. You know, 24/7 we've got the fire department and EMS here, but to understand the cadet experience and to be able to help out. So my sponsor was a paramedic in Colorado Springs, and a lot of ride time with him.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  05:37
That kind of worked out really well.
 
Mark Michalek  05:39
Again, divine intervention. And so we formed this team. We got our EMT certification on nights, and we're able to help out, and, you know, provide practical experience. If you remember that Class of 2001 was absolutely decimated during Recognition. Remember, we had to have a timeout. There was — we had to have a time to say, “Look, like, we got to, you know, we got to rein this in,” and so we were able to provide a lot of support there. But as I progressed in the Academy, you know, public safety, protecting people, continued to resonate with me, and was one of the reasons I chose behavioral science as a as a track, partly…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:19
Not because you didn't love math?
 
Mark Michalek  06:21
Partly because I probably wouldn't have graduated.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:24
I was right here — social sciences too.
 
Mark Michalek  06:28
Yeah, you know, you got to go where you're strong, right? But I knew that regardless, we'd be working with people. And then to tie it back to my dad to understand why somebody with a family would take their own life was still something that I was struggling with, and so that really led me to a psychology track. But this drumbeat of public safety really continued to resonate with me, and it's really the main reason that I chose security forces as a career field. I mean, I was medically qualified to fly. Already had a private pilot's license.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:59
Right. That was actually what I was gonna ask you, because you had that.
 
Mark Michalek  07:03
Partly because although I have my license, I get horrifically air sick, which is a weird dynamic.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  07:11
And yet you kept pushing yourself. Amazing.
 
Mark Michalek  07:12
Yeah. So if I'm flying, I don't get sick, but if I'm a passenger, then I get sick. So I didn't want that as a career choice for me, but I wanted to lead people where they were. I wanted to lead on the ground in the public safety space, and so that's why I chose security forces.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  07:28
So let's talk about that a little bit. You know, as a security forces officer, you saw many things. I'm certain of it. But was there a moment when you actually had a leadership kind of moment for yourself that you grew — different from when you're a cadet — but in the moment leading some security forces, men and women, was there a moment that you grew that way?
 
Mark Michalek  07:49
Yeah, I think right out of the gate, because as soon as you're a second lieutenant in security forces, you are leading airmen. So my first assignment was at F.E. Warren as a nuclear weapon convoy commander — a team of 40 airmen. So there's no diffusion responsibility, there's nowhere to hide. Like, you are it. And that was the first practical application of leadership for me. Theoretically, and you know, within the Cadet Wing, you're kind of in this microcosm to test some things out and develop who you're going to be as a leader. But once you hit the ground, like, that is it. And to be able to motivate, inspire a team of people in a mission to protect nuclear weapons when there hasn't been a direct attack in our history is difficult, but now I look back as a 23-year-old lieutenant running a nuclear weapon convoy with the world's most important weapon on the open highways is an incredible responsibility. But that's really, I think, where the rubber meets the road, where you start to see what leadership looks like for you. It's not the same for everybody, right? You take bits and pieces of people and in theories and apply really what the moment requires. And in security forces, you really start to see the value of the senior noncommissioned officers, and although you have the authority, they have the reputation and the ability to deliver and so it's more art than science. And so I learned that very quick, right out of the gate.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  09:12
That makes a lot of sense. And something that you said, I think, is really important. You know that that human piece of it, when I think about the pace in which security forces and a lot of our law enforcement roles live in. My question for you might be, how did you help those handle kind of challenging moments or stress, right? You kind of go towards, “Give me more,” take on more, stay busy. Not everyone is wired the same. So did you have airmen that struggled in how they dealt with, you know, things, trauma, etc., and how did you coach or lead them through that?
 
Mark Michalek  09:45
Back then, there really wasn't a lot of support. There really wasn't a recognition. There was still a stigma, both in the military and law enforcement, of “I can't disclose that I'm having a problem. You're going to take my secure clearance, you know, you're going to take my weapon, I'm going to lose my job, I'm going to be embarrassed.” And so at that time, there really wasn't a safety net or an openness to discuss it, so you kind of just dealt with it. So it was more of telegraphing as a leader of what your values were, in hopes that people would kind of, you know, reach out if they needed help. In my time in the FBI, I was able to influence decisions and policies, to be able to be more accommodating, to kind of focus on the whole person and look at our individual followers as a function of performance, as opposed to, you know, you're my responsibility when you're in uniform from 9 to 5 and then you're off duty. You know, life is not my concern as a leader.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  10:47
You know there are times when you're leading folks and you might have the authority to do some things. Did you start to implement some of those programs or support resources, etc., as an agent, or when you were at a higher-level authority?
 
Mark Michalek  11:00
In FBI, it was at a higher level. So, you know, one of the reasons I left the Air Force after six years, it was a tough decision. And it wasn't running away from something, it was running towards something. And I recognized, you know, when we were company-grade officers, the trajectory is kind of baked in. You will continue to promote, but you will lead people. I wanted to do the work. I didn't want to just lead the people doing the work. I wanted to do the work for myself, and that was one of the reasons I joined the FBI. But going through as a case agent for 13 years on a violent crime squad and being exposed to some of the different things that my dad was exposed to, that others were exposed to, it really laid a foundation as I pursued leadership to be able to have greater influence as I moved up the organization, to set that culture towards mental fitness and resilience and really as a function of optimizing performance.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  11:55
Can you talk about that a little bit more? Tell me what you mean by mental fitness and resilience.
 
Mark Michalek  12:00
So, you know, law enforcement and military both, over the past 20 years, have made significant progress in kind of chipping away at that stigma. We're not where we need to be yet, but we're making really, really good progress. I equate our work to that of an Olympic athlete. It's not just running the race. Olympic athletes are obsessed with their craft, whether it is nutrition, sleep, mental imagery, you know, different types of runs to test different types of muscles and stamina and endurance, but they look at the whole person. So too should we in law enforcement and in the military. So as I got into leadership positions, you kind of block and tackle for your people and let them run, and you set the trajectory of your unit, your squad, your team, your division, your organization, on how they move forward. And so I really push that whole-person concept, that you are a whole person, not just your 9-to-5, but your off duty, your on duty, your past, your present, and all of that needs to be optimized for you to perform the mission. I was very fortunate at our entry level senior executive service position to be at our headquarters and be responsible for — it's called our employee health and performance section, but the clinical staff at the FBI, the psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors, nurses, social workers, to be able to drive that culture and to move from post-traumatic stress to post-traumatic growth. And I needed to experience that as an agent. I needed to be on mass casualty scenes. I needed to be engaged with victims of crime to understand what that looked like, what that felt like, to project what my dad had experienced, but to recognize as humans, we are not wired to see what we are requiring our people to see and do time and time again, and we just require them to go out, to go out, to go out — instead, to provide mental health counseling, which in the FBI, we do, not only for the employee, but for their spouse, which I think is very important, and kids, for that matter, to be able to recognize that, yeah, like, you're not super human. It's OK to not be OK. You're not going to lose your clearance and your gun. People that lose their clearance do so because they compensate in maladaptive ways, whether that's drugs or alcohol or anything like that. And so that's been rewarding to drive that culture, to push the creation of employee assistance, counselors, these are mental health practitioners, chaplains, peers, just to be able to let that culture permeate, and to be able to demonstrate from the top, I'm very open about my dad and how that has shaped my life, to be able to telegraph that, you know, post-traumatic growth is possible, and there are a variety of resources out there now. And there's science and research, and there's just a recognition that the way that we are wired, you can't just keep going 100 miles an hour. You've got to go back to being that Olympic athlete and have a rest in a work and schedule and to be able to push yourself and to relax and just think holistically.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  15:16
The term itself post-traumatic growth is one that I'm not familiar with. But when you explain it that way, it's very clear. And my question to you might be, how have you for yourself, personally — you know, you're a husband, you're a father, you know, you have seen things, and then you go home and while you do have counseling for family members and for yourselves as well, what does that look like, this post-traumatic growth, when you go home personally.
 
Mark Michalek  15:45
You know, it's really tough to practice what you preach. We're really good about setting a vision for an organization as leaders and taking care of other people, but not taking care of ourselves. And what really flipped the switch for me was reframing the perspective on telegraphing for others to create the permission structure that it's OK, and when they see you do that, then they know it's OK. So for example, in FBI culture, same for the military, like if the boss is in the office, you’ve got to stay there, or you’ve got to be there till 5 o'clock. That's fine if you have work to do, but what sense does it make to sit there just because you know your boss is there? So one of the things that I did as I approached senior leadership was I left every day at 4 o'clock, and I made sure they saw me leave. And it's not — I'm going out to go play golf or whatever, but I am going back to be with my family. And in all the assignments I've had — I've moved several times in the FBI — I've made it a point to be home for dinner, and that is the stability for the family, for my girls, for me, and we'll have our dinner and put the kids to bed, and I'll get back and do more work, but being able to telegraph that, you know — I was the special agent in charge of our Denver field office — and as you move into the senior ranks, it's an incredibly lonely job. When you are at the top, there's no way you can talk to you can't gripe to people below you, you know, you've got to have a strong peer network, and you've got to put on the oxygen mask first to be able to help others, and that takes consistent kind of messaging. It takes some consistent actions to be able to show we're putting our money where our mouth is, and then engaging with employee assistance counselors. I talked regularly with ours, and I wanted people to see that, yeah, it's confidential, and there's no shame in that. You would have no problem putting on your squad calendar that you're going to a dentist appointment at 10 o'clock tomorrow. We want to get to a point where that's all “I'm going to go talk to the counselor.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:49
Have you seen the benefits of that, since the agency has made some of these changes?
 
Mark Michalek  17:55
I have, you know, over the past 20 years, the scale, speed and scope of critical incidents is just unimaginable. It's now commonplace for mass shootings. You know, when we were here at the Air Force Academy — Columbine —
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:49
I was just thinking that when you brought that up.
 
Mark Michalek  17:55
 
And now it's almost every single week. The FBI is very similar to the military in that we are mission focused. You know, our job is to protect the American people and uphold the Constitution and the threat spectrum has exponentially changed. We have to deliver again. There is nowhere to hide. There's no diffusion of responsibility. When I was the special agent in charge for the Denver field office, we were the FBI for Colorado and Wyoming, and whatever happened, we had to deliver. And so we're not afforded the luxury to not respond. And it takes principled decision making in the development of culture to practice and plan and prepare and create that permission structure, because you know what's going to happen, and when it happens, it hits hard, and we've got to deliver. We have to be mission focused and get the job done, but we have to take care of ourselves on the back end, and that takes purposeful decision making by leaders to carve out that time and say, “Nope, we're going to take a timeout.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  19:19
Well, let's talk a little bit about that actual example, but let's talk about the Boulder attack. And you know, what was your role and approach as the leader, you know, in that lonely role as a leader, but to really kind of navigate that. Can you talk about that with us?
 
Mark Michalek  19:37
Unfortunately, the Denver Field Office has had their fair share of critical instances to respond to. So we've got our reps in over the course of time, but that performance just doesn't happen overnight. It takes a lot of work in policy development, in exercises, in pressure testing assumptions to be able to deliver when the moment requires it. The Boulder attack happened on June 1, on a Sunday. And so many things happen at one time. You know, our society has changed where, you know, it's a 24/7, news cycle, and things are happening in real time. You no longer have the built-in delays, because you've got to get to a phone to make a call, and so this is happening, unfolding in front of you in real time, and there's so many things you're responsible for as the leader. I think when it comes to times of crisis, people want stability. They want reassurances. They want a steady hand to land the plane. And that's what my focus was on, that although I have the same emotions, anxiety, stress that is happening, we need to be the steady hand to land the plane. We focused the culture in Denver on direct community impact and supporting partners. I think there's a misperception with the FBI that we have to be the lead. And you know, when the feds come in, they take it over, and, you know, here we go. But that's not the case. We can prop up local law enforcement and to provide the forensic, technical, analytic, tactical, behavioral expertise that they may not have or may be overwhelmed due to the size of the incident. And thankfully, we have a strong relationship with the Boulder Police Department. And so the chief called me personally as he was, I could hear the siren in the background as he was rolling to the scene. So we have plans in place, just like the military when there's a crisis and you send that flare up, and you execute the crisis-management plan, and you work in real time. Everything's moving at 100 miles an hour. Being the leader in that situation, you are getting torn in multiple directions. So you have your employees responding to the scene. You have local law enforcement. You have elected leaders here in Colorado, they want to know what's happening. You have elected leaders in D.C. that want to know what's happening to the point where my phone broke. So many phone calls at once, like, it was fried. And so again, like focusing on — I've got to be the steady drumbeat. I've got to be measured here, to telegraph that we've got this, but also a trust and confidence that your people do have it and to get out of the way. They're the experts. I'll block and tackle for them and let them run, and I telegraphed that in our culture, and let them run, and they did phenomenal. And I focused on what my responsibility was on, was not on being at the scene and seeing what's going on in that, it was engaging with executive leaders to be able to understand what we have, what resources we need, and to be able to deliver now at that time. Given the context of what was happening overseas, we knew this would be an international — of international interest immediately, so it could either go very well and controlled, or it could be absolutely horrible. And so that's another layer of pressure. And when you go back to the fundamentals at the Air Force Academy, of when it matters most, that you buckle your chinstrap on the helmet, and you just get to it, and you immediately go into that mode and distance your emotions and thoughts and anxieties, and put those to the side and focus on the mission at hand. And we knew when we were giving statements in the press that it would be carried internationally, so a different layer of stress as a leader. You know, we had simultaneous operations. We had the scene — the subject had a makeshift flamethrower and threw Molotov cocktails. There was about 15 victims at the time that were transported. Luckily, he was arrested by a Boulder police officer on the scene. But we also had activity in Colorado Springs, where his house was. So generate search warrants and everything for that, and then a mobile command post to assist Boulder PD. But nowadays, you know, we're running leads all over the world, because what we don't know at the macro level is, is this a distraction? Is there another attack happening? Is this part of a pattern that we've got to figure out in very short order?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  24:20
I'm curious, because I remember the reason why you left active duty, or you transitioned from active duty to the FBI, because you wanted to be in the things doing, the things you find yourself now in, positions where you're leading. How have you grown as a leader yourself? What have you learned about yourself in this? Not being able to be the one doing, but like you said, blocking and tackling? Like, how have you grown yourself?
 
Mark Michalek  24:42
So I was a violent crime agent when I first graduated from Quantico, and I did that for about 12 years, and it was all about impact for me. So I worked bank robbery and armored car robbery scenes. And I remember this. I remember these scenes as we're talking, but I — you go to a chaotic scene like that, with yellow tape and local law enforcement there, and people crying and physical evidence and blood on the ground, and people are looking for somebody to take control. And I remember walking out of my car with that gun and badge on my hip, and you could feel it. “Here comes the FBI.” OK, they've got this and to be able to turn order into chaos, or chaos into order, and create, you know, develop evidence, make a case, prosecute it, provide that sense of closure for victims. That was the juice for me, in that direct community impact. But then I started to feel the calling of leadership from the military, and I started to see that as you move up the ranks, you're able to make more and more impact with a greater group of people. And that became the juice for me. And so in the FBI, it's not as linear as the military, where you, you know, you just move up here, you can kind of go up and down or sideways. But that really motivated me to be able to give back that public safety kind of motivation in larger and larger groups of people. And often when it comes to leadership, whether you're in the military or the FBI, there's kind of this imposter syndrome of like, “Do I really have this?” But you look back and say, “Look at all the things I've been doing, look at all the experiences I've had, all the different places I've led all over the world, and it's turned out just fine. I've got this.” And to move up and up the ranks and to make decisions and lead larger and larger groups of people and learn from those decisions — that was my spark. And then at that point, I just continued down the pipeline. I'm at a point now where I'm operating and leading at the enterprise level, which is impactful, stressful, humbling and rewarding, but that special agent in charge position, that was the ideal position, because you're directly connected with the people. We've got about 500 employees between the two states, and are ingrained in the community to be able just to help more and more people.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  27:09
So you're driven a bit by adrenaline. We've talked about this. I'm curious what's next? I mean, you're at the enterprise level. Do you stay here? How do you continue to fill your sense of impact that your leading or making a difference for when you've kind of continued to really, you know, rise in that way?
 
Mark Michalek  27:29
At the enterprise level, it's a different perspective of leadership — you're obviously leading through several layers of leaders. So you know what you know with the company grade or the supervisory special agent level, you kind of keep the train on the tracks and keep the trains running on time. The enterprise perspective, then you're laying down enough track for that train to keep moving forward. And so it takes a little bit of a shift. I'm enjoying my time right now. It's really impactful to see the subtle things. Change culture, people reaching out when they need help, direct community impact. Where you weren't directly involved in that, but you laid a foundation for that to grow. You know, that said, like, there's only one FBI director, so there's really no other opportunities. It's just continuing to give back at this level, but whether it's military or FBI, it's, you know, the similarities are leading in high-consequence environments where the stakes are high and the margin for error is small, and I think there's opportunities for that to continue to lead in those environments outside of government as well.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  28:50
So I think about some of the things you shared about, you know, why you've made certain decisions and leading through different levels. I'm curious about how leadership has shown up in your house as a dad and as a husband, thinking about what you experience with your dad, how do you navigate that in your home life?
 
Mark Michalek  29:09
You know, it's interesting as you grow older and you gain experience and maturity and in a world view, and you really start to see the forest through the trees, and leadership manifests in different ways, but as you get married and have kids, then you start to appreciate what your employees are experiencing, stresses and joys as well. It forces you to be disciplined and to focus on what your priorities are. And it's tough when you're in a high-consequence environment to say, “Yep, families first — can't do that.” Well, there's a mass shooting, like, you're going to have to go. So there has to be a little bit of flexibility. But all things equal, focusing on the family is really the sunlight, you know that helps us grow, and it shifts your mind towards giving back. Like, in preparing the future generations, which just happened in the blink of an eye for us— as I'm driving in, we go past the buff where we were commissioned. I'm like, my god, 27 years have passed. So now the focus shifts on providing for the family and thinking, “What kind of world do I want my girls to live in?” And it equates to the FBI, because I want the FBI to be an organization that agents and analysts and professional support staff folks not only serve for 20 years, but that my daughters want to join, and they want to do 20 years. So a pendulum shift more towards not just delivering results for today, but continuing to grow on what the future looks like.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  30:43
Pulling that a little bit further, what do you hope that your girls see in you as a leader? You know, the way that your dad was your hero and you looked up to him? What do you what are you hoping your girls see in you the traits?
 
Mark Michalek  30:56
You know, it's funny. They're 9 now, so I think they could care less.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  31:01
Maybe what they don't want to see you doing.
 
Mark Michalek  31:02
I'm just kidding. But, you know, in the future, I want them to be able to see the value of integrity, of service and of excellence, in this recognition that life is so precious and short, and I want them to leave it all on the field. And you know when their day comes to be able to say, “You know what I did, I lived a full life. I was supported, loved…” You know, whatever it is they want to get into, it doesn't have to be law enforcement or anything like — I just want them to excel and enjoy themselves, but just recognize how phenomenal life is and how short it is, and you just got to find your spark and just go for it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  31:50
That's amazing. And I think about your comment earlier about we're really good at helping others know what they should be doing, but maybe not the best at taking our own advice. How are you doing that and taking care of yourself today?
 
Mark Michalek  32:01
So for me, it's running. Everybody's got something that they need to unplug, decompress from my time, from high school through the Academy, military and now it's running. It gets a little slower as we get older.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  32:17
Note to self, do not plan to go running with Mark. Got it.
 
Mark Michalek  32:21
But it just — everybody needs time to unplug and take off all the masks. FBI agent, Air Force member, husband, parent, friend. You just need to take the mask off and you just need to breathe. And that's what does it for me, being outside and breathing. And one of my assignments was in our San Diego field office, which was spectacular. But being in water was another area that I really found energized me and, you know, and made me whole. But, yeah, running is what does it now. And I make it a point that no matter how busy I am, I've got to run at least once a week.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  33:05
OK, what's your distance that you're running to give yourself this time to unplug in?
 
Mark Michalek  33:09
Now, not fast. Now, this isn't a sprint; it's more of a marathon, but I haven't done any marathons. That's a little too much for me. I'm in the in the 5- to 8-mile range. That seems to be the sweet spot. And then here in Colorado, it's being out in nature, but in D.C., to be able to run the monuments every single time — and I've done it hundreds of times — but every time you go past those monuments, and you put your hand on the Washington Monument, or you go up to the Lincoln Memorial, and you stand where Dr. Martin Luther King stood and you see that perspective, I just get this sense of history and appreciate the decisions that were made and the consequential events that happened over time in the stability of institutions, in that you know leaders way above us stood the test of time, were resilient and were able to navigate unthinkable challenges, then so too should we, and I find a sense of, I guess, comfort or shared experience, although that's a whole different level for those level of leaders, but that really helps fuel me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  34:17
I can actually see that. Just picture you doing that. You know, I want to ask you, what is something you're doing every day to be better at “fill in the blank,” your leadership, your craft? What's something you're doing every day?
 
Mark Michalek  34:32
I think it's being disciplined and focused, definitely running and being physical, but balancing the time with family and friends in work, it sometimes — it comes across as selfish. I think particularly people who are service oriented consider that selfish. But again, like they say, when you're on the plane, you've got to put on your oxygen mask first before you can help others. So that's not selfish. You're telegraphing to others to take care of themselves. When I run, I listen to presidential biographies.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  35:05
Really, I was going to ask you, what's in your ear? Now — I'm just kidding.
 
Mark Michalek  35:09
I don't know if it's the cadence of the — but again, to understand decisions from the past, and when you know our country was at pivotal points, how we responded, that helps fulfill me. I think, you know, becoming a student of leadership, from being a cadet to now, and finding different ways and understanding whether it's private sector, other public sector entities, how they navigate things, because it's very, very similar when it comes to, you know, motivating people, managing programs, delivering results, you know, grappling with emerging tech, new different types of threats. So I do a lot of reading in that space, to be able to be a more kind of holistic leader and not have on horse blinders, just specific to government.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:00
Has there been one lately that's really stuck with you, or that you've listened to while you're running, or that you read that has continued to evolve the way you're thinking — you approach leadership?
 
Mark Michalek  36:11
I think it's — John Dickerson has a book called The Hardest Job in the World, and it's about the presidency, and it's not one individual president, it across party lines and in decades. But it's more of those themes that when you think back, they didn't have the technology we did. But like these fundamental themes are the same of, how do you motivate people? How do you respond to the operating environment? How do you handle complex challenges? Again, like I just felt a sense of reassurance or support and understanding on things, you know, through the course of time that we may not have all the answers, but collectively, people are the potential energy of the organizations, and they're going to deliver. They're going to hit it out of the park. You just have to support them.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:58
Well, we have viewers and listeners that kind of span from, you know, young cadet hopefuls, cadets, you know, graduates and family members. What's something that, if you could tell yourself years ago, maybe as a cadet, that you should say you should be thinking about this now, because in 27 years from now, it's gonna matter? What would you share?
 
Mark Michalek  37:18
You know, I think, first of all, I wish I would have had more fun.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  37:25
I think I've seen you smile more now.
 
Mark Michalek  37:28
I mean, it's just such a pressure cooker, and you don't want to let anybody down, and you don't know what the future holds. And, you know, “I've got to do this, I gotta do that. I gotta…” It's just breathe a little bit and enjoy it. Like, you don't recognize you're really in a pivotal point in your life. So that, I think that's one thing. I think the other for cadets and prospective cadets to recognize is, like, the FBI, like, the military is temporary. You're going to retire, probably young. You know, you do 20 years in the way our systems are set up, in the way the world is now. Rarely are you just going to go fishing at age 40 or 50. You know, you may have a second act, you may have a third act, and so you've got to really have the long view in mind, and it's OK not to have all the answers. You know, life will throw you some curve balls here and there. You've got to do what fulfills you at the time and doors will open. But you just got to have that faith that things are going to work out.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  38:35
Did you have that, you think, back then, or you, just looking back on it now, recognize that?
 
Mark Michalek  38:41
I don't know. I think partially I had it then. Those Academy years are really, really tough. And like, we were chatting before, like, well, you know, once you leave, that was it. I had no intention of coming back. And it's kind of like a boomerang. Distance and time makes the heart grow fonder, and then you recognize, you know, what you've learned here and how special this place was. And I think back, I think staying busy and active is what got me through. There's nothing worse than that first holiday break in December, right when you go back to your friends and they're at local schools, and you see all the stuff they're doing, and then you’ve got to come back. I mean, that is such a — the comeback piece. Do you have the, you know, intestinal fortitude to come back? You know, that was really, really tough, but now I see that the Academy, you know, left an indelible mark on me and changed the trajectory of my life. And I think back, you know, like I said, I'm the only person in my family to have ever left Michigan, and what life would have been, you know… You think the Earth is flat until get out and see there's a whole big world out there and a ton of opportunities. And as I've gotten in this role, particularly as a special agent in charge in Denver, I interact more with military leaders here in Colorado and Wyoming, and start to reconnect with people and see that this Long Blue Line, it spans everything. We are everywhere across the world. But you have no idea what good stuff lies ahead if you just stay the course, and your life will be changed in fundamentally spectacular ways.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  40:29
You couldn't end it better than that. I guess I want to just ask you this final question. Is there anything we didn't talk about today that you would like to make sure you make mention of?
 
Mark Michalek  40:34
No, but let me give one piece of advice for future cadets and cadets. And this — I think I read this in a book before I came but this is what helped me survive. Go to bed every night at 10 o'clock. You know, there's folks that try to do the all-nighters. I didn't. Every night, I went to bed at 10 o'clock and dealt with the consequences on the back end. And I think that ability to recharge and rest served me well.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  41:00
Do you still go to bed at 10 o'clock now?
 
Mark Michalek  41:02
I try. Now it's more like 9 or 8:30 as I've gotten older, but I think you've got to recharge and sleep. And that's one of the things the Academy teaches you, is you are not going to get everything done. You're not going to muscle your way through this. You can try. You're going to end up tired. But this is a team sport. Life is a team sport. You've got to do the best you can and get up and do it again the next day. But you are not you're just not going to get it all done. So you got to take care of yourself.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  41:30
Well, that really does kind of bring it home. Does that this time that you've been kind of experiencing in your life through the active-duty service, through the FBI, you know, you said it yourself, you kind of look back at, you know, maybe why your dad made some decisions. Do you feel like you've gotten to a point where you've had closure now?
 
Mark Michalek  41:49
Yes and no. I think I've gotten to a point where I've got all the answers I can but I'm at peace with what had happened. And I just, I try to, you know, leverage the time I have with my wife and girls to be present and to be a good role model and just to be able to support them and help them thrive.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  42:12
Well, I think you've been an incredible role model. You've been an incredible friend through all these years. This conversation has been one that's been really rooted and just understanding who you are, where you're at, and then how to navigate from that place. And I think that's why you've been one of the reasons why you've been just so successful, and why you're able to lead so many people through so many different crises. So I thank you for being on Long Blue Leadership. This has been a true treat for me, but again, I know that all of our listeners and our viewers have enjoyed this as well.
 
Mark Michalek  42:39
Oh, thank you, Naviere, I really appreciate the opportunity.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  42:43
As I think back on our conversation today, you know, there are several things that stand out. I think one thread that we really need to think about is taking care of ourselves and others, knowing where we're at, thinking about mental resilience and really post traumatic growth, being able to move forward and seek help when you need it. I think part of our conversation today as leaders is not everything is easy, and certainly you have a network that supports you, and so one of the ways that my classmate Mark has really highlighted to me is lean into your network, you know, utilize the resources that are there for you, and then you can not only help yourself, but you can help others as well. So it's been an incredible conversation, one that I look forward to listening to again and sharing with others as well.
 
KEYWORDS
Public safety leadership, law enforcement leadership, military leadership, FBI leadership, crisis leadership, trauma-informed leadership, mental resilience, post-traumatic growth, whole-person leadership, high-consequence environments, leading under pressure, servant leadership, organizational culture change, resilience culture, mental fitness for first responders, leader self-care, work-life balance for leaders, empowering frontline teams, interagency collaboration, leadership in crisis response.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 

A simple but powerful leadership lesson: show up — whether in loss, transition or everyday life. SUMMARYJessica Whitney ’10 reminds us that we often know what to do — the difference is actually doing it. Small acts of showing up can mean everything.
 
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JESSICA'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP LESSONS
Here are 10 leadership lessons from this conversation:
1. Align your life with your values, not your plan
Whitney thought she’d do 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, but family and faith became higher priorities than her original career plan.
Leadership lesson: Be willing to pivot when reality and your values diverge, even if it means leaving a prestigious path.
2. Redefine success beyond titles and rank
She struggled after leaving the Air Force because her identity was tied to “academy grad” and “officer.”
Leadership lesson: Anchor your worth in who you are and how you impact people daily, not in your job title.
3. Use mentors to unlock “freedom to choose”
A single honest conversation with her mentor gave Whitney “freedom” to imagine different possibilities.
Leadership lesson: Seek out mentors who model alternative paths and will tell you the truth about tradeoffs.
4. Make decisions with the best information you have now
Whitney references the Gen. George Patton quote about a good plan now vs. a perfect plan later, and emphasizes moving forward one step at a time.
Leadership lesson: Don’t wait for total certainty. Clarify what you know, what you don’t control, then act.
5. Integrity = keeping and honoring your word
From her transformational leadership class:
Keep your word when you can.
When you can’t, honor it: Notify early, reset expectations and clean up the impact.
Leadership lesson: Integrity isn’t perfection; it’s proactive ownership. This builds trust and reduces stress for everyone.
6. Name the stories that secretly run you (“what’s undefined runs you”)
Whitney recognized long-standing internal stories like “I don’t belong” from moving often as a Navy brat.
Leadership lesson: Identify your limiting narratives (e.g., “I can’t disappoint people,” “I don’t belong”) so they stop unconsciously driving your behavior.
7. Create a compelling future and work backwards
She describes standing in the future you want (for yourself or an organization) and asking, “If we were already there, how did we get here?”
Leadership lesson: Lead by designing the future state (culture, behaviors, outcomes), then reverse-engineer today’s actions.
8. Show up for people — especially in their storms
After her brother-in-law’s suicide, the support from church and Air Force community showed her the power of “just showing up.”
Leadership lesson: You rarely know what others are carrying. Leadership is often simply being present, unasked, when it matters.
9. Align daily actions with stated values
Whitney feels the most stress when her behavior and values (family, faith, health, service) are misaligned.
Leadership lesson: Use misalignment (stress, guilt, burnout) as a signal to recalibrate how you spend time, energy and money.
10. Invest in small, consistent habits (1% better)
Whitney references “atomic habits” — reading regularly, moving her body, cooking healthy meals and doing “one more rep.”
Leadership lesson: Long-term leadership impact comes from small, repeatable behaviors, not dramatic one-time efforts
CHAPTERS
00:00:05 – Introduction & Transition Theme Whitney is welcomed to Long Blue Leadership. Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99, frames the episode around transitioning out of the military, and Whitney shares her background as part of a dual-military couple and early family life.
00:02:02 – Mentorship, Freedom & First Thoughts of Leaving Whitney describes reaching out to her mentor about transitioning to the reserves. That conversation gives her “freedom” to imagine a different life that prioritizes family and values over a 20-year active-duty career.
00:06:39 – Academy Lessons, Courage & Decision-Making Under Uncertainty Col. Walkwicz digs into Whitney’s use of the word “freedom.” Whitney connects her
decision-making and leap of faith to leadership lessons from the Academy — facing unknowns, focusing on what she can control, and acting without a perfect plan.
00:10:13 – Growing Up Military & Redefining Identity Beyond Rank Whitney shares her deep military heritage as a Navy brat and descendant of generations of service. She explains the identity shock of leaving active duty and having to redefine success beyond titles like “officer” and “academy grad.”
00:13:26 – Values, Overwhelm & Redefining Success in Daily Life Whitney talks about aligning actions with values: quiet time, family, health and rest. She contrasts the nonstop pace of active duty with her new season as a stay-at-home mom and reservist, and how she now defines success.
00:17:19 – Loss, Suicide, Grief & the Power of Community Whitney shares the story of losing her brother-in-law to suicide in January 2020. She reflects on hidden struggles, the “buying bananas in the grocery store” moment of invisible grief, and the profound impact of church and Air Force community support.
00:23:12 – Learning to “Show Up” for Others Col. Walkewicz asks where Whitney learned to show up so intentionally. Whitney recalls community support during her dad’s deployments, meals after her first child’s birth, and a commander welcoming her back from maternity leave — illustrating the difference between knowing you should show up and actually doing it.
00:26:11 – Serving Beyond the Uniform: Church, Family & Cadet Morale Whitney explains what service looks like now: leading a 120-woman Bible study and serving on the USAFA Class of 2010 Cadet Morale Endowment board, which funds morale events for top cadet squadrons. She highlights meaningful leadership without a visible rank.
00:29:20 – Transformational Leadership & Redefining Integrity Whitney shares lessons from a transformational leadership course she took (and later taught): integrity means both keeping and honoring your word. She gives practical examples (calling when you’ll be late, managing deadlines early) and uses a bicycle-wheel analogy to show how broken commitments make everything bumpier.
00:32:07 – “What’s Undefined Runs You”: Naming Limiting Stories Whitney introduces the idea that unexamined stories (e.g., “I don’t belong,” “I can’t disappoint people”) quietly drive behavior. She shares her own “I don’t belong” narrative from moving often as a Navy kid and how she consciously claims, “I belong here,” to lead more authentically.
00:36:50 – Creating a Future & Leading from It Whitney explains how leaders can “stand” in a desired future for their organization —
one of trust, transparency and camaraderie — and then work backward to identify the actions and changes needed today to get there.
00:38:33 – Advice to Young Jess: Vision, Risk & Trusting the Journey Asked what she’d tell her younger self, Whitney emphasizes clarifying what will matter at age 80, aligning life with that long-term view, being less risk-averse, and trusting God with unexpected pivots and new paths.
00:38:43 – Daily Habits, 1% Better & Long-Term Growth Whitney shares the small daily practices that make her “better”: reading and podcasts, surrounding herself with uplifting people, and health-oriented habits like walking and “one more rep.” She connects this to the concept of atomic habits and incremental growth.
00:40:52 – Closing: Character, Showing Up & Living Your Values Col. Walkewicz closes by summarizing Whitney’s key themes: leadership as character and presence, not having all the answers; simply showing up; and honoring integrity even amid uncertainty. She thanks Whitney for her ongoing service and impact.
00:42:05 – Production Note & Recording Date Ted Robertson notes that this Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded on Wednesday, Nov. 19, 2025.
 
ABOUT JESSICA
BIO
Jessica Whitney ’10 is a U.S. Air Force veteran, leadership coach and conflict resolution facilitator who helps executives and emerging leaders design purposeful futures and take aligned action. Drawing on more than a decade of military leadership experience navigating communication, conflict and high-stress environments, she supports individuals and teams in overcoming limiting beliefs, clarifying priorities and building systems that foster confident decision-making. Whitney specializes in one-on-one leadership coaching and workplace mediation, guiding productive conversations that transform tension into trust and strengthen organizational culture. She is also a wife, mother of four and advocate for intentional living, dedicating her work to empowering leaders to align their identities and results with their vision for the future.
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FULL TRANSCRIPTSPEAKERS:Guest, Jessica Whitney ’10  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:04Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad you're here.
 
Jessica Whitney 0:08Thanks so much for having me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:04You know, one of the things we love to do, and we’re going to have some time really exploring a lot of the things that you've encountered in your journey, but we want to jump right into a place that is both relevant to our listeners, which is transitioning out of the military, but you did so in a way that was a little bit different, and maybe not on, like, the timeline of planning.Jessica Whitney 0:28I'm a 2010 grad, and so is my husband, Tom, and he was a nuclear missile operator, and I was a finance officer on active duty, and we started having kids in 2013 which was just amazing. But being a dual military couple, we had kind of been through a lot of separation and time apart, which is standard for military couples. And so in 2013, I kind of — I just had my first son, and I was back at work, and I was just feeling this torn feeling, because I always thought I would stay in the Air Force the full 20 years. I loved serving. I loved being in the military, and having gone to the Academy — just all the dreams and the hopes that came with that, and being able to lead and serve my airmen. But I was feeling this yearning and desire to kind of do something else, and that's kind of where the seed was planted at that time. And I reached out to one of my mentors, who was actually the coach of the lacrosse team at the Academy when I was there my freshman year. She's actually one of your classmates, I think. She's Anne Marie Hornby. She's from Class of ’99, and I just reached out on Facebook, and I was like, “I know, I haven't talked in a while, but I just wanted to check in and ask, you know, like, why did you transition to the Reserve?” Because she was always, you know, she was a teacher at the Academy. Like, she was always high performing. Like, I knew she was an amazing officer. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:02She was high performing as a cadet too, by the way.Jessica Whitney 2:05I'm sure she was. Just everything she did, I could tell she did it with excellence and love, and I just really respected her opinion. So I reached out and asked her just like, “Hey, can you just tell me, like, why did you decide to separate?” I'm just kind of feeling this tornness, and I'm feeling like maybe my calling might be something else than serving in the military, which, as an 18-year-old, you kind of go to the Academy thinking, “OK, I'm gonna have four years at the Academy, and then I'm gonna serve for five years, or 12 years, or whatever.” Like, you've got your whole life planned out, and then all of a sudden there's this, you know, pivot and decision that you have to make of like, “OK, wait, life is throwing some things at me that I didn't expect.” And I just wanted to know her opinion. And she just said such a sweet thing that resonated with me, that she kind of felt that same call of, “I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I wanted to be able to focus more on my husband and my family.” And while it was scary, she said, I know she knew that motherhood, or like becoming a stay-at-home mom and transitioning to the Reserve wouldn't necessarily feed all of her desires of competition and performing well and using her strengths to the utmost, maybe that she could — she also knew that it aligned with what was important to her and her family. And each family is different, and each career is different. So it really gave me freedom to say, “OK, I know successful women in the military who have families. I know successful women outside of the military who have families.” And you know, we choose to do the stay-at-home mom career, which was different for me, because my mom worked full time when I was growing up. So anyway, it gave me that freedom to kind of like pivot and think, “OK, what could the possibility be to like, create this life of being there for my family?” So fast forward, 2016 I was teaching ROTC at Colorado State University, which was a dream job, by the way, I absolutely love that job. And Tom, my husband, at that point, had already separated from the Air Force and was pursuing his career in professional golf. He was traveling to PGA Latin America in both the fall and spring of 2016, I had to go TDY to field training for seven weeks that summer. And I think we counted up being apart for over 40 weeks that year.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35
Majority of the year.
 
Jessica Whitney 4:36
The majority of the year. Yeah, and I did not really see staying in the Air Force, it getting any better, as far as, you know, having more time with my family and my husband. And I just felt disconnected, my heart wasn't in it anymore and serving, and I still had that little, you know, seed that had been planted when I talked to Wibs about, you know, like, “Why did you go into the Reserve?” And I talked to a couple other reservists who just loved the balance of being able to still serve in uniform while also being able to maybe have a civilian career, or just be able to have some more flexibility to spend more time and focus on their families during a season of life. And so in 2016 I'm sitting there my desk, like, “I just want to go home and take a nap. I'm so tired.” I had two kids at this time. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I'm just exhausted.” But I was like, “OK, I think —" you know, my husband and I prayed about it, we were just like, “OK, I think it's time to just take this leap of faith, kind of walk away from what we've known.” So now both of us would be out of the Air Force and pivot to something else, and like, step into that faith decision that for us, that the Lord's going to provide, and that we wanted to build and focus on the things that were really important to us. So showing that if family faith are the most important things, how was I using my time? How was I using my energy? How are we using our money? Did it reflect what was actually important? And so we made that decision, and then I got out in 2017 and separated. And honestly, it was the best decision ever. Now, I struggled a ton with my identity afterwards, because I just didn't realize that I really kind of was wrapped up in this idea, like, “Oh, I'm an Air Force officer, I'm an Academy grad,” and those things are, like, very focused on what you do. And so I had to kind of redefine what success was to me as far as just impacting the people around me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:41I want to just interject here for a moment, because you said a couple of things that I really want to pull on before we get too far, because I think it really does impact some of our listeners and some of the experiences that they've had. So the first one, when you talked about that transition, and there was a key word you use, and you use the word “freedom,” — “It gave me a freedom to kind of things a little differently” after having a conversation with your mentor, and then, you know, praying about it with your husband. And so I want to just explore that a little bit, because did you feel like that freedom, or just the ability to kind of navigate that did touch on some of the things you really valued that you learned at the Academy, as far as decision making, and kind of, you know, taking this leap of faith and navigating what's not always known. And, you know, I don't want to say it's safe, but maybe it's not the safest path, right? So, like, can you just touch on that a little bit more? Because I think that is something that, you know, people question that, kind of, in that decision-making place.Jessica Whitney 7:41Yeah, I definitely think that in that decision, when I say, you know, we had this, I had this freedom to make a choice, we could, kind of, I could kind of lean back onto my time at the Academy of we were given so many challenges at the Academy and things that were unknown and things outside of our control, and you just learn to have an approach where you cannot problem-solve everything, but just like you can say, “OK, here's the variables I know that are true, here are the things that are outside of my control,” which just help you make clear decisions, and then just stepping into the fact that any decision, any action, is just taking one step at a time, and you don't have to have the whole future planned out. And in fact, in the military, you rarely do, right? I always kind of joke with my husband with, like, the quotes, but you know, like Gen. Patton, like “A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week,” right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:40Next week. Thankful I was able to contribute a little.Jessica Whitney 8:43Good job. Good job. Yes. And so just, but the fact that, like, just make — do what's best with the information you have now, and take action and don't just sit on it. And I think, but, yeah, that gave me that freedom. Because, yeah, it was a big step and leap of faith, because a lot of people think the military is, well, of course, it is a risky job, and especially risky in the sense of our physical harm and a lot of the challenges that we face. But in many ways, it's something we knew, know, and it's something that's very reliable, and it's something that we had, my husband and I had both lived for, you know, 11 years between the Academy and now. So it was a big leap of faith, as far as, you know, transitioning to the unknown, but we were able to kind of lean on just, “Hey, it's OK that we don't know everything. We can trust the skills that we gained at the Academy and trust the skills that we gain just in life to move forward.” And even with my husband, I'm like, “If this golf thing doesn't work out —" which, by the way, he's been a professional golfer for 10-plus years now, so it's worked out. I fully believe that we are capable of learning anything and doing anything if we choose to set our minds to it, and like we're gonna be OK, like, because of what we learned at the Academy and skills that we garnered. Like, we're gonna be OK moving forward.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:13I love that. And you started to talk about having to redefine yourself, and before we get into that, I think it's interesting, because you grew up as a dependent of — your dad served in the Navy, right? So we like to use the term, you know, lovingly, I was an Air Force brat. You're a Navy brat, so your identity going into the Academy was already one of a military dependent, right? So let's talk about this redefining your identity, because I'm sure that it was much more than, you know, just on the surface level, it seems really simple, right, going from this, but I'm still serving, so it's not really that different, but I'm sure it was.Jessica Whitney 10:49Yeah, it was a big transition. So as you mentioned, I was a Navy brat. My dad served for 30 years, and I come from a proud heritage of military service. My grandfather, before that, served in the Navy, he joined straight from the Philippines, and my great-grandfather actually served in the Philippine army and was in the Bataan Death March. So I've got a lot of history in the military and a lot of pride and service to my country. And my dad was always, you know, a hero to me and someone that I looked up to, as far as he was always, not the only serving in the military, but he would be a leader of, like my brother's Boy Scout troop, right, and volunteer with this, and he'd be active in the Rotary Club. And my mom worked full time and led my Girl Scout troop, and whenever he was gone to Bahrain for 16 months, you know, she held down the fort with three kids. Like, I just looked up to my parents and how hard working they were, and just how they were always serving something bigger than themselves and balancing family and all that. I still don't know how they do it. And we have four kids now. I'm like, how did you guys do all of that? But when I transitioned out of the Reserve, I just remember sitting one time, like, I was doing my quiet time in the morning, and I was reading my Bible. And at least for me, I had to remind myself my value is not in what I do. It's not in awards I get. My value is one, in Christ, and then two, in the actions that I take each and every day. And it's impacting and positively impacting the people that are around you right now. And honestly, it's a struggle every day, even today. I've been a stay-at-home mom for eight years now, and it's something I think we all struggle with — of like, what is our purpose in life? What is the reason — why we do the things we do? And each person really has to, like, struggle with that. So I had to, I think when I was really struggling with my identity, I had to redefine, like, OK, my worth and value is not in the title that I have or the rank that I have or anything like that. It is loving on the people around me really well and serving to the best of my ability with excellence in all we do right where I am, and that's the most important thing.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:25How did you get to that point of defining that? I mean, is it kind of in lockstep with your views of yourself as a leader? Or would you say it's just where you kind of settled into in your moments of quiet and through your prayer of, “This is how I define my impact and my —" you know, what that looks like?Jessica Whitney 13:48I think a big chunk of it was just continuous practice, in a way, each and every day, reminding myself, one, is what success looks like, because I think that as people who are highly motivated and being leader, you're like, you've got your to do list, you've got your things you want to do. I've got, like, a to do list, like, this long, you know? And yeah, and I would just tell myself, like, “I've got 25 things to do. I only did six of them.” Like, there was no way I was going to do 25 things in the first place, you know. So I think that as a leader in general, you need to be realistic about what you can actually accomplish each and every day, whether you're a stay-at-home mom or you're a leader in the workplace, and actually be able to, like, you know, time block and say, like, “These are the most important things. These are my priorities.” And probably just over, it's probably just over time of like, every morning, like, "OK, the most important things, like, got my quiet time in. I'm spending time with the kids. I went for a walk, I moved my body, and we're eating healthy meals. I remember when I was working full time, I would kind of be jealous of those people who, like, had time to cook a full meal, and, like, spend an hour maybe making dinner and, you know, have quiet time. I always felt when I was on active duty working full time, it was just like, get up early in the morning, go to daycare, drop off, work all day. You know, work out during lunch. Never have a break, and then run home, make dinner really fast, and, like, get the kids in bed, and there was no break, and there was no rest. And so I remember yearning for that when I was on active duty. And so when I first became a stay-at-home mom, and when I first transitioned out of the Air Force. I really had to remind myself, like, OK, what are my values? What is most important here, and are my actions aligned with that? And if they are, then that's success right there. And so I had to remind myself that every day, like I get time to make healthy meals for my family. I have time to go to the gym five days a week if I want to. I have time to put a, you know, like, say yes to things like this. I've got time to go speak at the Veterans Day ceremony at my kids school. Like, I don't have to feel bad about missing appointments for my missing meetings at work for appointments for my kids. I don't have to choose that all the time. Now, serving in the Reserve, you know, I still miss weekends where the kids have tournaments and games and stuff, but that's OK, like it there's, there's a balance in there. I hate the word balance, because I don't think you ever really achieve that. But I think that as leaders, you know, we have to — like, when you're feeling the most stressed, or when I felt the most stressed, it's when my actions and behaviors just haven't lined up with my values and what's most important to me. “So as leaders in your organization, if you know you guys are — your stated values, are, you know, XYZ, but you're over here doing ABC, then there's going to be disconnect in the organization.” So I think at any time, you know, when there's alignment there, then you're going to feel alignment for you as a person, as a leader.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:19I'd like to dig into those values a little bit, because we did talk about how you've experienced deep personal loss, right, in your family, and you know, how have the values, or maybe just your life experiences, helped you navigate that? Because, you know, I think people experience grief on all levels, and if you don't mind sharing your story a little bit, I think it just will allow others to understand how you were able to navigate through that and maybe continue to navigate through that today.Jessica Whitney 17:51Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to share this part of my story. So my husband's brother, Bob, was a 2008 grad, and unfortunately, we lost him to suicide in January of 2020. It was really just a complete shock when it did happen. It seemed like it came on so quickly. Bob was just always someone that when you walk into a room, he was always smiling. He was the light in the room. He was such a great husband and father. He was super active in his church and his family. And so a couple things that I took away from all of that was just one, we just never know what people are going through, what storms they are, like, they might seem perfect on the outside, and really, they're having struggles with maybe imposter syndrome or just doubt, or they're just having all sorts of issues, right? So you just never know. I remember standing in the grocery store after he passed away, and I'm like, staring at these bananas that I'm supposed to be buying for eight kids because we were like, up with them, you know, after the funeral. And I'm just thinking, like, no one around me knows that this just happened in my life, and I'm just standing here doing this mundane thing of buying bananas. And I think it, just, as a leader makes you realize that people are walking through storms all over around you, and if you're not currently in a storm, most likely you will be. After he passed away too, we were just blown away by the community support that he received, both from his church as well as from the Air Force family, but I know that it takes time to have good community. It takes — you have to invest time. And all of us, we're just so busy, but these relationships, these are the most important things that we can work on and develop the people around us. It kind of showed up for me in my unit, we had an airman who lost a spouse. He had three young kids at home, and his wife passed away. And I was like, we just need to show up for him, like, be at his doorstep. And we're in the Reserve. We don't live close together. We're not all stationed by the base. So, you know, it's like someone needs to go to his house, bring him a card, tell him we love and care for him as our Air Force family. And you know, he even commented afterwards, he was like, “You know what, you guys—” this Air Force family that he only saw one weekend a month. He's like, “You guys are my lifeline.” But I know that, for me, I really knew that we needed to show up, and that's because I knew what it felt like when people showed up at my door, when we needed it, you know?
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:51Wow. I mean, I think that's really — I mean, to navigate that. And loss, I think you know, is as a journey, that it's still a life journey, right? And so, and I think the fact that you were able to lean in and you knew and expressed it in a way that you know, showing up for those and then seeing it happen actually in your unit, and being able to translate that. Have you always known, I guess, about showing up? Have you seen that in other leaders in your career or in your life, what showing up looks like? How that really defined you? Because I'm curious if you know that was all just developed in seeing that in that loss journey, or if it was something you've seen over time and then witnessed it?
Jessica Whitney 21:37I guess I would say, if I'm really looking back, especially because I'm a Navy brat, right? We did live in places all over the country, and, yeah, we did have a good support system. Like my friends, my family, had people that would show up. Like when my dad was deployed, they would show up at the house when I was in high school. You know, we had such a tight knit community there, but I am thinking, like the first time I really felt that was with our church community. After our first son was born, people would show up at our house, and I didn't even know them, and they were bringing food to us. I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so sweet.” But just, like, that power of community, and then even with leaders that I've had in the past, like my first squadron commander that I can remember, she, like, the first day I got back again from maternity leave, she had, like, just brought, like, a little vase of flowers and put it on my desk, and just like a welcome back, but like an acknowledgement too. Of you know, it's hard to come back after, right? You know, your first child, or any child, like after you have a baby, and then you come back to work, but just, you know, welcoming and showing up. And I think that this, I don't know exactly where it stems from, but, yeah, actually taking the time to do it, because a lot of us know we should do it, but do we actually pause long enough to do it?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:11That's a really great — I think that particular nugget, right? We know what we should be doing, but do we actually take the steps to do it? I think, is actually an important lesson right there. And, you know, would you say that throughout your experiences, and I'm really curious, because I think, you know, you talk about being a stay-at-home mom, but I'm sure your schedule is quite — you said you get six out of your 25 things done. Can you talk about how you're serving outside of the uniform? Because I think that that's really important as well. Service doesn't stop just because we take the uniform off. And I mean, it sounds like you're serving in your church and your community. You know, what does service look like to you now, through that leadership lens, maybe when you're not wearing a rank all the time?Jessica Whitney 23:54I have really looked at the areas of my life that I want to be active in, like, what's important to me? And in the church, I participate in the women's Bible study, and I'm one of the leaders there and kind of help lead. We have 120 women that come every Wednesday and I'm one of the leaders that, you know, kind of facilitates the overall Bible study. And I've just loved stepping into that role and using my leadership skills to encourage people and show up. And then the other board I kind of serve on is the Class of 2010 Endowment for Cadet Morale. And so our class, with our funds that we, you know, had raised throughout the years, decided to set up a morale fund. So the top squadron for each semester actually receives a $5,000 check from our endowment, and they can use it on whatever they want. And I just remember, like those cadets, those high schoolers that are transitioning to be future leaders of the Air Force, they are amazing. I am impressed every time I interact with them. And the Academy is hard, and I just want to offer that little bit of light, you know, to encourage them. Like, “Hey, you're on a good path. Like, just, just continue on. And here's a little bonus, bonus check.” You know, literally, we love that part. But yeah, so I just love to step into service where I can.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:23I'm glad that you shared that, because I do think it's easy for us to downplay our role and impact in the hats that we wear and the ways that we serve, and so I really appreciate you sharing that, because I think that's an important part of our stories you talked about with me before you know, redefining yourself. I want to go back to that because I think it has to do with being authentic and who you are. And so as you've navigated this new season in your life where you're still serving in these multiple hats and raising your family, supporting your husband, you know, where was that seed planted from, being an authentic leader, kind of, you know, being — leading with integrity, you know, maybe saying, “I can't do this, but I can do this.” Can you talk a little bit about that?Jessica Whitney 26:07Yeah, absolutely. I took an amazing class at the Academy, a leadership class that a friend of mine, again from the lacrosse team, recommended me, and she's like, “Jess, this class — it's called transformational leadership. It's way more than that. I really think you need to take this course.” And she was so right, because there are so many things that I carry over from that, from that course into my leadership, and then just my everyday life. And it was taught by Capt. Kari Granger, who's now Kari Zeller, and she's an Academy grad as well. And when I got to my ROTC detachment in 2016, so eight years later, this gentleman came into the office, and he's like, “Hey, my daughter teaches this leadership course called being a leader and the effective exercise of leadership. I really want to teach it at Colorado State, but I'm looking for someone to partner with, maybe through the detachment. Like, do you think anybody would want to co-lead this class with me?” And his name was Karl Zeller, and I was like, “I think I took this class when I was at the Academy, and it was amazing, and I would love to lead this class with you.” And so not only did I take the class at the Academy, I also taught it two semesters while at Colorado State, we kind of made it an elective class, and we had several cadets and cadre go through the class, which was just an amazing experience. Because I think most of us know that when we have to teach other people something, we learn it even better than when we go through it ourselves. So the kind of the main takeaways I had were one kind of heard the definition of integrity. We all know the Air Force's definition of doing what you know the right thing when no one's watching, when nobody's looking, but she kind of defined it more as both keeping your word and honoring your word. So we all know that keeping your word that's easy, but what is honoring your word mean? And her framework kind of laid out, honoring your word is, as soon as you realize you're not going to keep your word, notifying the person that involves saying when you are going to keep your word and then cleaning up any mess that you made by not doing it. So a quick example would be, you know, you're running late to a doctor's appointment. You get in the car, you realize, “Oh my gosh, I'm going to be seven minutes late to the appointment.” Instead of, like, white knuckling your steering wheel to make it in time, you feel guilty when you get there. You immediately call the office. You tell them, “Hey, I'm going to be late to the appointment. I'm going to get there seven minutes late. And, you know, I realized that this has an impact on you like, you know, let me know if I need to reschedule." Whatever it is, right? Most people are so shocked by this ownership that they are so much more gracious to you in whatever the circumstances are. And on top of that, you're not stressed. You're not, you know, white knuckling. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:22So when it really takes you nine minutes to get there? Yeah,.
 
Jessica Whitney 29:26So hopefully overestimate.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:28Seven minutes and 40… Like, round down.Jessica Whitney 29:29My husband calls that, like, Jess math. I'm like, yeah, well, it's fine. It's fine. But, like, if you think about in the workplace, right, like, you have an assignment, you have something your boss gave you, it's due Friday. You realize Monday, OK, there's no way I'm going to do this. I can either stress about it, work super late hours and, you know, like cause all this extra stress, and then maybe still not accomplish and get the work done, and then show up to my boss on Friday and say, “OK, sorry, boss, I couldn't get it done.” Or on Monday, you bring up the conversation, you swallow your pride, and you say, “These are my challenges.” You manage expectations, and you're you guys together. Can you know, either reassign, get help or bump the deadline, whatever it is, but now you're no longer living in this like, fear of like, I'm going to be late or whatever, like you're able to perform better. And so they, in the class, they talked about how, with integrity, everything works. And they talk about the idea of like a bicycle wheel, right? There's spokes on a bicycle wheel, and if all the spokes are intact, it's going to run very smoothly, right? That's keeping your word and honoring your word, you're performing really well. Well, when you're not honoring and those folks and you're not keeping your word, or you're not honoring your word, some of those books are missing, so it's just going to be a little bit bumpier. And things are going to get done, but they're not going to get done as well as they would if you were honoring your word. So that's a big takeawayCol. Naviere Walkewicz 30:56That’s a great analogy. Wow. Yeah.Jessica Whitney 30:58So I apply that, I feel like in everything, because I think a lot of us will get in the way of ourselves, of just like, “Oh, I don't want to tell them and be late, or I don't want to, I don't know, disappoint someone, or I know there's expectations with my husband, but I'm just going to ask forgiveness instead of, you know, for permission,” or whatever it is with whoever. So anyway, with integrity, nothing works. And so I kind of take that away of, like, OK, what's expected of me? OK, I'm going to try to meet that. And that kind of lines up too with just this idea of what's your values, right? So if I say I'm a person that values fitness, do my actions line up with that. That's part of my word. OK, so I've said, I've said, “OK, I'm a fitness person and I want to be healthy.” Well, am I going to the gym? Am I eating healthy? Am I drinking too much? Am I — whatever? Do my actions align with that? No, OK, I'm not in integrity. It's not bad or good. It's just not working as well. Not going to accomplish my goals if I'm not in alignment with the other two things. And I'll just touch on them quickly, and then we can explore more if you want. But the other one is what's undefined runs you, which is basically means — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:06Wait, say that one more time.
Jessica Whitney 32:09What's undefined runs you. So it's this idea of all of us have stories most likely from our childhood that we make up about ourselves. So like, I don't belong. I can't disappoint people. I have to get things done the right time. And we can probably all look back in our past and say, “I remember I got in trouble one time when my grandpa was at the house and I was late getting in, and he said, you know, you're disappointing your mom. You're not listening to her.” And then, all of a sudden, you make this life sentence for yourself of I can't disappoint my mom. I can't disappoint so now you have this filter, this mindset that all of your decisions and actions flow through that says I can't disappoint others. Well, of course, that's going to limit what you can and can't do, because it's filtering out half of, you know, a quarter of action, anything that could any —Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:03Risk or grit.
Jessica Whitney 33:05Exactly. And so what the undefined run you means you're never going to be able to completely get rid of these filters and things that you have, but you can name them and define them. So you say, OK, like for me, I was a Navy brat. I moved around a lot, and so I often felt like I didn't belong where I was. Like, I always felt like people already had relationships, all that stuff. So I do, I know that I will walk into a room like a Bible study, and in my mind, think, “Man, like, people just don't really connect with them. Like, maybe they just don't like me.” I'm like, “No, I've been here for five years. I belong here. I am a part of this group.” But it's this, you know, filter that I'm running things through, of I don't belong. I need to name that, remove it, and then be like, OK, I belong here. I am part of this group.Naviere Walkewicz 33:54
So what have you named it? And have you removed it?Jessica Whitney 33:59I think it's more about just the awareness. So it's like that, we as leaders have to be aware of the things that are getting in our own way of being an effective leader. And so I — this is a big one for me, like the I don't belong. So even recently, I walked into a new group of women and I said, “I belong here. I am a part of this community.” It's like at my son's school, and I can contribute as me. I don't have to hold back, or, you know, be a certain way. I can be myself. I can be my authentic self and lean into this. And it was very freeing, because in the past, I have gone in and just kind of like sat kind of back, and I don't want to be intimidating, or I don't want to take over the conversation, or just whatever it is, I'm not being myself, and I have to tell myself, like, “I belong here. I can be myself if they don't accept me for me, that's OK,” you know. But I can't hold back just because I'm trying to fit in and just because I'm trying to be risk averse, or, you know, conflict averse, or something like that. So, yeah, just be yourself, right? But so what's undefined runs you. So as leaders, we need to identify what's holding us back, what's running our lives, right? And just name it. They have a phrase: “Name it to tame it.” So once you can put a name on it, then that often helps you change your actions, you know? And then the last one is just, I think leaders, you are a leader. If you are impacting something around you, the organization, the people around you, they wouldn't be who they are without your influence. So in that framework, we talked about creating a future as leaders. So you've got a current organization, and maybe there's, you know, like no one likes to hang out, there's gossip, there's toxic leadership, there's bad communication, no transparency. This is a very imaginary organization, of course. But you acknowledge, like, OK, this is what's going on. Let's create a future. What does the future look like that we actually want, with all the actions and things like, OK, we have transparency. We like to hang out. There's, you know, Squadron picnics. We go to PT and we all encourage and work hard. We handle conflict in a healthy way. OK, so if we're standing in that future and looking back, how did we get here? So the course is a lot about, like the whole ends, ways, means that the Air Force talks about, but just how can you stand in the future and look back and say, “How did I get to that spot?” And then that's how, you know, what's the next action you can take in this current spot?
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:49Wow. Jess, it's almost like you read my mind, because there's two questions I actually want to ask you, and one of them is about looking back. So why don't we start with that one? First, you know, what is something you would tell yourself, young Jess back then that you could be doing then to help you be a better leader now? And is it actually what you just talked about, or would it be something else you would add?Jessica Whitney 37:11No, I think it would be just that. Like, no, where do you want to be even, like, let's say, in five years, or what's going to be most important to you in 80 years? Right when you're 80, when you look back on your life like, what's going to really matter? And start aligning your life with that. Now, some of that takes time, but standing in that future of how you want it to feel, how it looks, how you want your organization to feel. Like, start — write it down, put it on a vision board, talk about it with someone. And then I would say to myself, like, and then start working towards it. I think when I was younger, I was, you know, I was comfortable with where I was at. I was afraid to take risk. I was afraid to do things different than what I always thought I would do. And you know, for me, the Lord really worked in it, in my heart of just saying, Just trust me. Just trust me with that next step you have the direction you kind of want to go, and I'm going to take you on a journey that you know you're probably never going to be able to predict, kind of like, what I talked about at the beginning, like I pivoted, like it was completely different than what I want, and just be OK with that. That's the beauty of life is, you know, pivoting with what's in front of you, but just taking that next, that next step.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:32I love that. And then what is something that you do every day, just to be better and better is really you define better, but what is something you're doing every day.Jessica Whitney 38:42I love the books, like The Power of Habit and Atomic Habits and yeah, they're so good in just this idea of your daily actions are, what are, who you are, really like, how you show up in the world, because you can only control what you're doing today. Can't control what you're doing tomorrow or what you did in the past, and so for me, one, I do love to read. So I'm always reading books, listening to podcasts and all that kind of stuff. So I think, as a leader, just, like, surround yourself with lots of different opinions, read different things and just encourage my brain. Two, I love to surround myself with people that encourage me and a community that's going to help me challenge myself to improve. And then three, like those daily actions of self-improvement, of like, OK, how can I be just like, 1% better than I was yesterday, whether that be choosing to eat a little healthier today or going on a 30-minute walk, or, you know, when you're lifting weights like, Can I do five pounds more on this? Like, one or one more rep, right? Like, one more. But I do love that analogy, and weightlifting like, OK, I didn't realize that, you know, like, I can do one more rep this week than I could last but three months ago, you know, I've made huge improvement from three months ago. But you don't realize until after the fact. So I think, you know, being a high achiever all my life, it's like, you want to see these big, like, changes and, you know, immediately, but oftentimes it's in these, like, small moments of like, “How can I just be better today?” Healthwise, community-wise. Who can I love on today? How can I, you know, for me, like being in alignment with, you know, what I think God has for my life, being in prayer and focusing on the people around me. You know, that seems like a lot of things. That's why I've got 25 things on my list, ,Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:44But you get a few of them done And that's OK, because you just gotta do one.Jessica WhitneyExactly, you just gotta do one.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:51Well, I can just share how much, you know, you really just like leaned in and shared your love and wisdom with all of us. And I think that's one of the things I really appreciated about this today: how you showed up for us and shared your authentic self, and so I just want to say thank you. You know, as we wrap up today's conversation, Jess, what's really stood out to me is that we talked about leadership is just about as much about character, but it's really also about, like, showing up and who you are. You know, you show us just that strong leaders don't just show up and need to have all the answers. They actually just need to show up, right? And just, you know, live their values, live with integrity. And I love how you said, you know, honor your integrity even when life is uncertain or changing. So, you know, I think your transition out of active duty could have been a moment of doubt and struggle, but you turned it into an opportunity to serve, and your family has continued to thrive. So thank you for all that you're doing in your community, and for all of you who need to hear this journey, for those that have also gone or going through a transition, this is a conversation you certainly don't want to miss. So again, thank you to Jess Whitney, Class of 2010. It's been a pleasure having you on Long Blue Leadership.
 
Jessica Whitney 42:05
Thanks again.Outro 42:05This Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded Wednesday, Nov., 19, 2025.
KEYWORDSLeadership, authentic leadership, transformational leadership, values-based leadership, character-driven leadership, servant leadership, integrity, honoring your word, keeping your word, accountability, responsibility, vulnerability in leadership, decision-making under uncertainty, courage, leading through change, creating a future, vision casting, aligning actions with values, purpose-driven leadership, redefining success, identity as a leader, mentoring, mentorship, developing others, showing up for your people, empathy, compassion, community building, resilience, leading through grief, supporting mental health, trust, transparency, culture change, organizational alignment, handling conflict, managing expectations, setting priorities, work-life integration for leaders, modeling behavior, investing in relationships, daily leadership habits, incremental improvement, 1% better mindset, self-awareness, naming limiting beliefs, “what’s undefined runs you”, authenticity, influence without rank, service beyond the uniform, leading in family and community, Long Blue Leadership.
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 

In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Joel “Thor” Neeb ’99 explains this simple framework. “Yes” builds experience. “No” protects focus and time.
SUMMARYIn this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Joel Neeb ’99 explains this simple framework. Yes builds experience. No protects focus and time. Leadership is knowing when to shift.
 
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JOEL'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
1. Time is your most finite — and most misused — resource. Facing mortality created instant clarity: Stop letting others waste your time. You must actively protect time to focus on what matters most.
2. Regret comes from inaction — not failure. Neeb didn’t regret failures — he regretted not trying things that were uncomfortable. Leadership growth = bias toward action in uncertainty.
3. Imposter syndrome + growth mindset = a leadership superpower — “I don’t belong here… yet” paired with effort fuels growth. Elite teams are full of people quietly thinking the same thing — and pushing forward anyway.
4. Reinvention is not optional — it’s continuous. You don’t “transition” to a new role — you start over from scratch. The best leaders willingly become beginners again.
5. Comfort is the enemy of growth. When things become easy, growth stops. Leaders must intentionally seek discomfort, not avoid it.
6. Elite teams + inspiring mission = peak human performance The most meaningful work comes from: Being on a team where you feel you must earn your place and pursuing a mission bigger than yourself. This combination drives purpose and performance.
7. Say yes early in life, say no later in life. Under 35: Say yes to everything → build capability through exposure. Over 35: Say no to almost everything that doesn’t align with your goals → protect focus. Leadership maturity = ruthless prioritization.
8. The future belongs to those who disrupt themselves first. AI (and any disruption) rewards those who move early. “Stay slightly ahead of the rate of change” = competitive advantage.
9. AI should be a thought partner in everything; not a replacement but an accelerator. Leaders who integrate AI into daily workflows will move exponentially faster.
10. Think in five-year transformations, not three-month wins. People overestimate short-term output and underestimate long-term transformation. Leadership requires a bold long-term vision and daily actions from that vision.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 — Introduction: From Fighter Pilot to CEO-Level Leadership
00:00:49 — Stage 4 Cancer Diagnosis: The Moment That Changed Everything
00:03:48 — Clarity on Time, Regret, and What Truly Matters
00:07:02 — Reinventing Yourself: Leaving the Military & Starting Over
00:10:04 — Growth Mindset, Imposter Syndrome & Elite Teams
00:13:38 — Learning the Language of Business
00:17:14 — AI Is Disrupting Everything: What Leaders Must Know
00:22:46 — Using AI as a Thought Partner to Move Faster
00:24:58 — Say Yes Early, Say No Later: Mastering Your Time
00:35:06 — Big Goals, Long-Term Thinking & Final Leadership Lessons
00:37:22 — Joel’s Big Audacious Goal: Leading Through AI Disruption
00:42:47 — Using AI to Learn Faster (Even While Working Out)
00:48:14 — Closing Thoughts and Key Takeaways
 
ABOUT JOEL
BIO
Joel "Thor" Neeb ’99 is a recognized business leader in the software-as-a-service (SAAS) industry. He most recently served as vice president of execution and transformation at VMware, where he led a cultural and operating model transformation for the 40,000-person company as well as helped launch VMware’s AI roadmap and strategy. Prior to VMware, he served as chief executive officer at Afterburner Inc., where he led more than 100 elite professionals, including former fighter pilots, Navy SEALs, and Army Rangers, in helping global organizations achieve breakthrough performance.
Neeb is a former United States Air Force F-15 mission commander. He was the tactical leader of 300 of the most senior combat pilots in the U.S. Air Force and oversaw the execution of a $150-million-per-year flight program.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS:
Guest, Joel "Thor" Neeb ’99 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:11Joel, my friend, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.
 
Joel Neeb 0:13
Thank you very much. So glad to chat with you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:15
Oh gosh. Well, we are excited for this. It's going to be just a filled conversation of incredible insights, and you have so much to share. And I think what's really special about this is how we're going to touch into AI, because it is relevant, and it's everywhere now, but I actually want to dial it back first to a very specific moment in time, and it's probably an area that has really transformed your life, right? So you went through stage 4 cancer. I mean, not many people can say that they have gone through that and survived it, and I think it also really impacted others in your family. Can you just share a little bit about your story?Joel Neeb 0:49Yeah, so back in 2010 I was flying, on top of the world. I was going through the interview process for the Air Force Thunderbirds, and I found out, out of nowhere, that I had a stage 4 cancer diagnosis. So within just a couple of weeks, I went from feeling like I was at the peak of good health to now being told that I had about 18 months to live and a 15% chance to live five years. And those would be a pretty gruesome five years if I did make it that far. And so that was the new reality that I had to contend with.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:19I can't even imagine that. I mean, just… Was there some kind of indication, like, you went in and you were checked up and they found this? I mean, it just wow, just boom.Joel Neeb 1:30You know, it's funny. I actually have to credit the flying role with most likely diagnosing and solving this for me early. Because when I would fly and I'd have my G suit on my abdomen, it would inflate against me when I pulled Gs, and it was a pain that I was experienced on the right side of my abdomen that right around my appendix. On a scale of one to 10, it was like a two. So nothing big, but big enough that when I went and saw the flight surgeon for my annual physical, I mentioned it, and I said, I'm sure it's nothing, but they did the right thing, and did some quick tests and ultrasound on that area and some MRI work, and they were able to very quickly determine that a big tumor grown in that spot.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:09Wow. Well, I guess right there, just a lesson off the bat is listen to your body. You know your body, and if something doesn't feel right, seem right, you know, say something and get it checked out.
 
Joel Neeb 2:18
That's exactly right.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:19
Oh, my goodness. OK, so you got that diagnosis. You're sitting there with that information. How do you process that? What is the conversation with your wife, you know, what's the next step when you're given some kind of timeline like that?Joel Neeb 2:34Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I would have thought having gone through like fighter pilot training and even the Air Force Academy, and, you know, all the things that build resilience in life, that I would have felt more prepared for that moment. In other words, that I would have felt more prepared than the average individual. But I did not. I felt, I felt very much like I was in a catastrophe from which I couldn't see how to get through the day to day activities. I was a zombie around the house and it really relied on my wife and my family stepping in to help me. And so for a good couple months, it's was just kind of inconsolable and, you know, I always like to say it was, I would wake up and go through my day very, very tired because I didn't sleep the night before. And then I go to bed staring at the ceiling fan spinning, trying to figure out, you know, any options that I would have to extend my life for my kids to remember me a little bit. I had a 1- and a 3-year-old and so I went through life for a couple of months just a zombie and doing very poorly.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:38So what changed in that couple of months that, I guess, changed the trajectory of how you looked at things, or how you approached her, or what happened?Joel Neeb 3:48Yeah, you know, there's a great quote that I repeat a lot, which I think makes a lot of sense, which is “the dying have the most to teach us about life.” And what it really means is that when you're faced with these types of struggles, that all of a sudden, whether you're 80 or 33 like I was, you get a certain amount of clarity right in that moment and it's good for eliminating the rest of the noise in your life and identifying what's most important and what should have been most important all along. And that comes through and is in the forefront is it was fascinating to me that the moment I got the diagnosis, immediately I was mad at myself for spending any extra time at work, like it was like a light switch in my head went off and said, like, “You shouldn't have stayed that extra hour at work just to watch the clock turn. You were done with your job there.” I had a boss at the time that I was a huge fan of and he was a clock watcher, and wanted just to be in there to fill up time. And my mind immediately went to “now my finite resource is time, and I've been wasting it.” And I remember vowing that I'll never waste my time again, and I've been very disciplined against letting anybody steal time from me from that point forward; that was one of the key things I took away. And then looking back in my life, there were things I regretted, things that I celebrated and that I was proud of, and also considered what I would do differently if I was given a second chance. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:05So, you know, you wrote a book called Survivor's Obligation. I'm curious about this journey, though, because obviously you beat it 15 years later, you're here. So, you know, you beat the odds of the 18 months. What was that like when you still had to provide for your family? You know, you were still working like, what was that journey like?Joel Neeb 5:25Yeah, first of all, I have to credit the Air Force with showing up in a huge way. At that time, I was watching other people in the civilian sector who were undergoing cancer struggles, and they had a much more difficult time than I did. The Air Force had stepped in and was making meals around the clock for my family. I didn't have to show up to work. I you know, they afforded me every opportunity to get better and I really credit the Air Force family with getting me through that period of time, in ways I just certainly would not have been able to get through on my own, and in terms of, like how I looked at my life as I was thinking about the things I was proud of and the things I regretted. The things that I was proud of I was a little surprised by, and the things I regretted I was surprised by. I didn't regret my failures, of which there were many. I didn't regret them, because what I actually regretted were those times that I didn't try, where there's times where I didn't make the effort into doing something new that was a little bit scary, that would have put me outside of my comfort zone, and maybe would have challenged my ego a little bit. And now the end of my life was here, and I'd never have a chance to do anything else. You know, my story was complete. And I said, you know, really angry at that. Had I gotten a second chance, I would do things very differently. I love being a fighter pilot, but I would have preferred it to have been a chapter in my life, not the entire book. I would have tried to go to the business world and done all these things, and when I did get that second chance, and basically, God called my bluff and said, “All right, let's see if you actually follow through with this.” Then, of course, I had to hold myself accountable to living differently in that next chapter.
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:02So that's what you're doing now. You're living in this next chapter. And so, I mean, I think there's a transition out of the military. Obviously, you retired as a lieutenant colonel. And so talk us a little bit about in this moment of what you're going to do if given a second chance. Let's talk about what some of those things that you took a chance on, maybe in the business world first.Joel Neeb 7:24Sure. So our mutual friend, Kovacic, he says, “I'm in the middle of my Texas Longhorn MBA right now. It's amazing. It's just down the street from you.” He knew — he was following my cancer struggle closely. And he said, “Look, you're two years into this journey. Who knows what the future holds?” But I talked to him about wanting to be in the business sector and trying something new. And he said, “If you're serious about that, you should join the MBA program.” And so that's what I did. I went and joined the MBA program and had a blast being the dumbest guy in the room, by far, in business school. At the same time, it almost reminded me of being a fighter pilot again, or at least the early days of being a fighter pilot, because it was a little bit of a combination of terror and exhilaration, which is really what I loved about being a fighter pilot. That first time you go upside down by yourself and in pilot training and you prove to yourself you can do it, you're a little bit terrified, but fully exhilarated, and knowing that this is exactly what you should be doing. At the same time, I had that same sentiment as I'm sitting in business school classes, as I'm trying to keep up with the conversation there, and you say, “Well, you know that's so different from flying a plane, how are you getting the same joy out of it?” And it's really because where I landed with, you know, what did I value most in life. It came down to the times when I was on an elite team with an inspiring mission, an elite team, meaning I felt like I didn't deserve that spot there. And the little secret was, everybody on the elite team didn't feel like they deserve that spot there. But boy, are they going to try to earn it. And then that inspiring mission that we're pursuing, whether it was our time at the Air Force Academy, I always felt like I didn't deserve to be there. I felt like that was an incredibly elite team with an inspiring mission. Felt the same way about being a fighter pilot. Had a healthy dose of imposter syndrome going through all of this, but I've learned to believe that that's a bit of a superpower, in a sense, because if you have imposter syndrome coupled with a growth mindset, which means I don't belong here today, but I can sure earn the right if I try hard. I think that helps us to really realize the full potential of our lives.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:26Really well said. And I think that actually kind of helps us see how you're able to make that transition. I want to go back to the fact, — first off, Kope is amazing. I love that he, you know — it talks about the Long Blue Line and our networks from the Air Force Academy. They really are for life. And I think, you know, you just, kind of just showed that you applied and you participated in this MBA program when you're in your mid-30s. Then can you talk about that a little bit? I think there's an interest in, “Oh, if I didn't do this in my 20s, it's too late.” Can you talk about that transition in, you know, your mid-30s, and do you think that was the right time? Can people do it later in their life, etc?
Joel Neeb 10:04So I would say you certainly can do it at any point in life. You can recreate yourself at any point. A lot of — gonna go totally off topic, but a lot of longevity science is saying that the first person to live to be 150 is alive today, meaning we're all going to see a lot more healthy years hopefully in our lives than ever before. So that should mean that all of us should pursue multiple chapters, and there's certainly not a point in life where we're done reinventing ourselves. But the key is the word “reinventing.” And I was at a point in my career where, at 33 years old, I was very, very comfortable flying. I was very, very comfortable doing air shows and flybys and leading missions and signing autographs. And so my identity was a lot of ego and not a lot of growth, meaning it felt good to be told how great I was at doing a certain skill set, but it wasn't that hard to do anymore. It becomes rote, and I wasn't growing at this point. In order to go into the business world, I had to completely reinvent myself. And I like to tell people that are transitioning out of the military, as difficult as it was to do the first thing, whether that's be a fighter pilot or an intel officer, or how you had to reinvent yourself at 23 years old — that's just as challenging as it's going to be. You have to sign up again for the B course, as we call it, as fighter pilots. The thing that introduces you to being a fighter pilot and realize that you're devoting that much effort to reinvent yourself. And people would push back and say, “Yeah, but you've already led in these environments. You have all of these things that should carry over. Wouldn't it be easier for you just to make a transition and less of that initiation energy that's required to start this new thing?” The answer is no, you literally have to start it over, as if you're 25 years old. You got to eat a lot of humble pie and realize you're not special in this environment. But the good news is, you can become special very quickly if you're willing to reinvent yourself now — you bring perspective that nobody else can carry. Nobody else knows how to navigate high stakes, life-or-death environments like we've learned in the military. Nobody shows up with the processes that we've learned through checklists and through cultural training, all the things that maybe we didn't even aware that we're seeing. As soon as you see the opposite in the business world and you realize, well, we don't have that great of a culture here. We had a great one in the military. That's a huge resource that you can bring into that environment, but only after you've completely reinvented yourself and translated your skill set into something that's meaningful for that business setting.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:28So Joel, that's fascinating, because what you're saying is you're almost stripping yourself of all these experiences to really open up your aperture for what's new. And I'm curious if this was a way you came into that? Sid you go in with your eyes wide open with that plan, or did you learn this about yourself?Joel Neeb 12:47I came into it arrogantly. I went into these conversations thinking, “Wait till they see how much I have to offer. I've been in very complex scenarios. I've led my way out of them. I have all these awards for being a good leader and a good instructor, and so just wait until they see what I've got to offer.” And that's why business school helped me out a lot, because in a sandbox setting that really didn't have consequences, I got to participate in conversations and learn very quickly I didn't know what they were talking about and that they were — they had an understanding around business already that I didn't have. I didn't understand the language, and I needed to really reeducate myself to become ready in this moment. And so there were moments in that period where I would have done very differently in approaching that next transition, had I known how far I had to go to really having something to offer the business sector.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:38Was there a moment during that time when you were getting your MBA that, in a way that cancer startled you as a life-or-death situation, and you changed your you know — “If I'm given a second chance.” Was there a moment in the business, you know, getting your MBA where you like, really, like, linked into like, this is what I'm going to be doing. It was so clear to you the next move in this, in this journey.Joel Neeb 14:04Yeah, I say that. I mean, there's one that stands out that really showed how little I understood the business world. So they're talking about pipeline in this conversation at my MBA school, and they said, “You know, we need to improve pipeline. We're working on getting better pipeline for our needs.” And I'm listening to this thinking, “What are they talking about? Is this like an oil pipeline? Is this pipe plumbing? What do they mean?” And for those in the business sector, of course, you understand. They're talking about a sales pipeline. A sales pipeline is a sales funnel that shows that the leads that turns into the sales and the conversion rate and all the things that that, of course, I know intimately well. Now, at that point, it showed me that there's an entire language I just haven't been exposed to, because I'd been talking about missiles and G forces and airplanes for so long that it didn't matter how much experience I was bringing to the table. There was a language I didn't understand.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:50I think that is really, really thoughtful in how you showed that, because then it helped you probably in navigating when you're leading, you know, other teams that have different experiences coming to the table. So when you learn that language, and I want to talk a little bit about, you know, CEO of Afterburner, let's just talk about your role in the civilian sector, your multiple roles, I'd love for you to share a couple of stories where you've grown as a leader and where you've continued to learn things about yourself in that space.Joel Neeb 15:22Yeah, so at Afterburner, what we end up doing at Afterburner, more often than not, was leading in keynotes, doing workshops for training, and what we would show them is how you can leverage the things that we learned in the military on the elite teams that we participated in, whether that's Green Beret, fighter pilot, Navy SEAL — we hired all those backgrounds, and, of course, look for teams that had a business degree on top of that. What we ended up doing was getting on stage in front of these folks and sometimes talking to 10,000 people. So I've done presentations in front of 10,000 people in my past. And what I was surprised by — thinking about the learning opportunities and where the growth came from — is that even after having done 3,000 briefings, you know, in a fighter pilot setting, and getting in front of the red flag team in Nellis and doing a presentation there, I would be behind the scenes at some of these huge presentations, and I would get incredible stage fright, I guess is the only way to say it. Butterflies. I would feel like I was going to pass out. And the reason I share this is because I was frustrated that it didn't translate better to this new thing that I was looking to do with public speaking. Now I'm talking for an hour, and I had to be engaging and comical at times, and, you know, bringing the audience into it. I say that because, once again, I was finding that that combination of terror and exhilaration and proving to myself that I could do it, and I had a new place that I needed to grow into for that now, I've done this enough times where my heart rate doesn't go up a beat when I do this at this point, but that's after doing thousands of presentations and I think the key takeaway for me was our growth is never over with, and it's growth that really feels good, and so leaning into those areas of discomfort has been something that's been really important to me my entire life, particularly after cancer.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:06So what is growing you now? What is new for you that you are pursuing in your personal growth and development?
Joel Neeb 17:14Yeah, so it was new for me now is what's new for society, this next era with AI. AI is going to disrupt every one of our lives. And just as aggressively as AI disrupted my life with cancer, or, excuse me, as cancer disrupted my life, or even becoming a fighter pilot or joining business school disrupted my life, we see the same thing take place on a personal and professional level because of just how powerful this new technology is. And if you're sitting there wondering, “It hallucinates still, and I don't really buy it, and we'll see where this ends up,” I'm here to tell you, as somebody who's at the bleeding edge of AI that's going to transform every single thing we do in very good ways, but also disrupt the way you think you add value today, and the way you think that you know we should participate on teams right now. And so that's it's going to disrupt everything. And so I'm looking to constantly reinvent myself in the context of this next era. And I'm also looking to lead our 2,400-person company at 8x8 on that same journey, so that we can disrupt ourselves before we're disrupted.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:14So what does that look like right now? Share something maybe that is on the leading edge of that, you know, that forefront of being disruptive before you're disrupted in your organization.
Joel Neeb 18:27Yeah, so for us, it's making this new technology as accessible as possible so that we can break down the barriers for using it and realizing that, much like in the ’90s, we went from only a small technical portion of the company that was using computers, then expanded to, of course, everyone in the company is using a computer on every desk. But that wasn't always like that in the late ’80s and early ’90s; that was just reserved for a very technical portion of the group. Now that expanded. Of course, everyone's on the net. You wouldn't dream of trying to get a job without being internet savvy and having computer skills. We're going to see the same thing take place with AI and so, and I don't just mean using AI. I mean using AI to code, using AI to build things, and it's not just going to be reserved for that technical component of the company anymore. And so what that looks like for us: We conduct a weekly session where we talk about the use cases from the previous week on a personal and a professional level. Why is that important? Because now we're breaking down that barrier. So last week, I'll give you an example. We had somebody whose father passed a couple months ago, and this person had he lives in the UK. He's from Africa. His father had never met his son, so this person's grandson, his father's grandson, he'd never met. And by using AI at his funeral, he was able to take their images and create a moment where they came together and hugged and picked up the grandson and played this really touching video for the rest of the people there to share in that moment that never really happened, of course, but was able to celebrate this person's life and that connection through the grandson. And it was just a really I mean, they were people that were getting emotional, talking about it, listening to the story. And then we have somebody else say, I had my basement flood, and I took pictures of it, and I used AI to imagine how we would have to renovate it and build it back better. And somebody else says I successfully used AI to combat the tax increase on my house, because I came up with good comparables around the area and a good way to beat it. By the way, it's a really good one to use, if you have…
 
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:32
A mental note right there.
 
 Joel Neeb 20:33
Exactly. So we're lowering the barriers on a personal level. So then when I tell you on a professional level, here are my expectations for how you'll bring AI to the table to accelerate the things you're already doing, the teams are ready to do that, and that's been a really important aspect of this journey.
Naviere Walkewicz 20:50Is it important for an organization to already have a culture that is open to — I think what you know is you're going to get a bunch of different perspectives. You're going to get a, you know, maybe thinking outside the box that you wouldn't have thought of. So would you say that the organization was ready for that? Or have you had to create that culture along the way?
Joel Neeb 21:11Yeah, I'd say, you know, change is hard. Nobody likes change. We like being through change. And so one of the things that growth provides an opportunity to change for the better, but it's always start to get that activation energy to really pursue change. And so what we had to teach the culture at 8x8 is to not be change weary, but to be change ready, and to understand that in this era, our ability to stay a couple months ahead of the rate of change will be a superpower the likes of which no one can compete with us. Meaning as difficult as it is to pursue this change and to continue reinventing yourself — and when I say revenge up, I mean if you're doing the same thing today in six months, then you're gonna be passed by — literally changing that fast. And we're seeing that inside of our company. And so the new constant will be changed. The new constant will be disruption. And the faster we get comfortable with that, and the faster we realize that if we disrupt ourselves a little bit faster than the competition, that's a superpower, but we're already enjoying it internally within 8x8, but it's because we've forced ourselves to get a little bit ahead.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:15that's really interesting. And I imagine, would you say that it takes, you know, when you are in this transformation mode, because this is what you're taking your organization through, you know, how are you coaching as a leader? How are you — maybe it's through the repetition of trying it in their personal life. But you know, what are you sharing from a leadership perspective that's helping them think that way constantly, right? I mean, it's different from, “OK, I'm going to do this today and…” But how are they constantly ingraining that in themselves? And how are you leading that?
 
Joel Neeb 22:46Yeah, a couple of ways. One, we're saying that AI should be a thought partner in everything that we do, maybe not a thought leader, meaning, I'm not going to hand off a decision or an activity to AI, per se, but literally in everything that we do. So I'll give you a quick example in your role. So you're doing podcasts, and these are amazing. And by the way, you're poised, and I'm not surprised after knowing you at the Academy, because you were very polished then. But this is incredible. You did a phenomenal job with this. But let's say that you want to get some feedback after this session. You can take this transcript, upload it to AI, and you would say, “Give me the key themes from this session that we discussed.” You could say, “Create emails that will be enticing and send them out to the entire team based on this transcript that we have for this conversation.” You could say, “Create new episodes and new questions for the next 10 guests that will continue to weave a red thread of common questions and common themes throughout all these.” Where I'm going with this is when you consider how to use AI as a thought partner in everything that you're doing, you can go 100 times faster on the key things that we want to accomplish.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:52I believe that wholeheartedly. And just a little side story, I'm coaching my son's fifth grade basketball team. Never coached basketball before, and he's going to be middle school next year, so it's the one and only year. But I used ChatGPT to build out my coaching plan, and we are — we only lost our first game and we've been undefeated since so I'm going to hand it off to my ChatGPT coaching partner.
 
Joel Neeb 24:13That's amazing. That's a great story. See, that would be one we'd love to hear at our session that we do every week around how accessible AI is. Because people hear that and they say,” I can do that too. I want to bring that to my kids game.” The more we use it every single day, the better prepared we're going to be for the big changes that are coming.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:27Excellent. So Joel, I want to dig into your personal life a little bit, because you have such a fascinating way of — I mean, you make everyone feel that the moment that they're spending with you is 100% theirs. But I know in the background — and your time is important, you talked about that — but I know in the background, you are doing so many things. You've got your family is a key pillar. You know, your health and fitness is a key pillar. You're traveling all the time. As a leader. You know, how are you navigating all of that and doing it so well?Joel Neeb 24:58Well, first of all, I appreciate the sentiment. I certainly don't feel like I'm always doing it well, but I'll tell you my philosophy and how I mentor people that are that are pursuing a path to their dreams, and whatever that dream might look like, is the following. I tell them, “If you're younger than 35 years old, you need to say yes to every opportunity that comes your way.” What do I mean by that? When the boss asks you if you're able to give a big sales presentation, even though the voice in the back of your head says you're not ready for this — “I don't think you you’re gonna do well,” the answer is yes. You prepare yourself, you go out there, you embarrass yourself, you do it better next time. And that's how you learn through that process. When they ask you if you're ready to go lead this mission, your answer is yes. You're gonna figure it out. You're gonna do everything behind the scenes to make sure that you're successful. And you're going to push yourself into that discomfort zone and ensure that you're leaning into all of those opportunities as aggressively as you can. Why? Because it's exposure to all of those areas of discomfort that really owns the discipline for us to perform in this positive way when you get to those areas now. When you're after 35 years old, the main advice that I give to people is that you're flipping the script. You are no longer going to say yes to everything you're asked. You're going to aggressively say no to everything you're asked unless it aligns to your key things that you want to pursue in life. So you're completely looking at it in a different direction. I've said yes to everything for the first half of my life. Now I'm saying no to everything in the second half. Why? Because it's the distractions that stop us from doing the big things in life. Once we pass about 35 years old, the better you are at saying no to things, the freer your time will be to say yes to the most important things. So while it looks like I'm juggling a lot of things, to your point, I'm aggressively saying no to everything else that doesn't align with a few things that I have really focused my time on.Naviere Walkewicz 26:52So let's pull that thread a little bit more, because saying no is uncomfortable, and it may feel to some that they are letting others down. How do you or how might you coach them through telling someone no?Joel Neeb 27:09Yeah, I would say that I don't have that problem. I probably did, and certainly prior to cancer, I would have. I am at the place now after I've learned how short all of our lives are, not just my life because I had a cancer battle. And the big surprise for me was not that I might die in 18 months, it was that I was going to die at all. Because for all of us, that notion of death is so far away and really something that we don't really come face to face with very often in life, that all of a sudden I had to accept the fact that I was going to die someday, and I better make good use of the time between now and then. So when people ask to have my time, I aggressively say no. I never feel bad about it. And then I also introduce gatekeepers to my time on top of that. So I don't even — most of the time you're working with my executive assistant, most of the time you're gonna be working with somebody on my team, and that's because I want to jealously guard my time at this stage so I can be as incredibly impactful on the few things that I want to do as possible. That desire dwarfs any emotional attachment I would have to say no to somebody else that long time. It doesn't even cross my mind to think twice about it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:25I think that's a great lesson right there. I mean, I think if you actually put time as the, you know, main, the thing you're protecting, right, everything else on to your point, it dwarfs behind that. And I think the way you did that, you actually made it very doable for people to say no, because now you've created gatekeepers, you put some stops in there. And I think that's a lesson that people can take away as they're looking to navigate their journey forward. So thank you for sharing that for sure. So, you know, you wrote two books, I'm sure there's probably more. Is that something you've always wanted to do, or has that been a realization of “I've experienced this, and there's a — I need to share this. Like, what was the impetus behind writing books on your experiences?Joel Neeb 29:09Yeah, great question. Very different reason I wrote both books. So the first book was born out of this feeling that as I was going through cancer, that clarity that I experienced: The dying-have-the-most-to-teach-us-about-life piece of it, I came back to the sense that, wow, I wish I knew this before I had cancer, I would have lived my life very differently, and I had made a deal with God that, you know, if I do make it through this, I want to share these insights and share what you know, my perspective was from being on this precipice with death and what I take away from it, because I did think it was valuable enough for my life to share with others in my immediate vicinity and then to write it in a book. And I just needed to get that out of me. The second one for the insight age is much more around what is the template that I wanted to pursue within companies to help take them from the Information Age where we have universal access to information, to the Insight Age, where we now have universal access to AI-driven insights, and how you prepare for that. I wanted people to have the template for it and understanding about how I approached it before I showed up so that we could all be on the same sheet of music when I led the transformation.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:15OK, that's really helpful. So as we think about AI in business, and, you know, having a template for that, can we talk a little bit? And we went to the Air Force Academy, and so I, gosh, I can't even imagine how I might have been a better student had we had AI back in the day. But how do you see AI disrupting? You know, our service academy cadets are, you know, anyone going through, you know, degree programs, you know, how do you use it where there's still original thought, but obviously it's, there's a thought partner that is helping you and maybe accelerate that. I mean, how is that working?Joel Neeb 30:49It's the same shift that you and I both experienced with universal access to information in the Information Age. And so in other words, there was a time where you had to memorize every phone number that you would call in your network, right? I mean, I sat down — we went to a high school reunion recently and we all sat down and we're trying to rattle off the phone numbers across the table. And we got most of them out there, still lingering in our head somewhere, these memorized phone numbers for everybody. I couldn't tell you, like, my kids phone numbers at this point, like, because I'd push a button and I just get it. And where I'm going with that is we're now in an era where memorization of rote facts and phone numbers and just facts that you can find in the internet is no longer required, and we're used to that, right? And so I wouldn't say that we think less. I would say we think a lot more. At this era there's a risk right now of saying, “I'm no longer going to be required to do critical thinking, because AI is going to do some of that for me.” And the answer is, it will. But much like I got a calculator for every GR that I got to go to — I did a math minor at the Academy…
 
 Col. Naviere Walkwicz 31:54
That’s why I didn't see you in any classes.  
 
Joel Neeb 31:59
I brought a calculator to every test, but it certainly didn't make it easier. If anything, it made it harder. I would have had an easier time like writing down calculations and just having to do the arithmetic. Because I had something that did the arithmetic for me, it elevated my thought process and made me more responsible for the critical thinking. You're going to see the same thing with AI. So as you think about it, how AI will disrupt a knowledge institution like the Air Force Academy. At first blush, we would think, well, it's just going to make it easier to cheat. It's going to make it easier to do the things that we're doing today. Yes, it does, just like if I only was doing arithmetic, a calculator makes it easier for me to do that, and I can turn my brain off. But as we all know, it's just going to elevate the threshold for what is required of us, right? So we're going to go in right, we're going to go into this next era with a thought partner on everything that we do, but you still have to guide that thought partner. You still have to point it in the right direction. You have to ask it the right questions. This era is going to be much less about having the right answers and much more about asking the right questions to find success.
 
Col. Naviere Walkwicz 32:59
Which is critical thinking at its finest, honestly. Fascinating. So, you know, Joel, I think about you and, you know, when I see the, like, the things that you're doing, American Ninja Warrior, your family is involved in this. How do you see, you know, how do you bring your family into the vision that you have it with the growth mindset? Do you see that that's how your family is? All the children are raised that way your wife is. I mean, is this the way that the Neeb household kind of operates? And has it always been this way, or has it really been since you kind of came to that realization that life is too precious for me to live otherwise?Joel Neeb 33:35Yeah, I mean, I try to live the philosophy that I want my family to live as well. And it's not the Joel show, meaning this is not just for them to support me and go cheer in the crowd at American Ninja Warrior. My wife has gone on and done physique competitions like you have as well. Col. Naviere Walkwicz 33:49She’s amazing. Your whole family's amazing.Joel Neeb 33:53And she's a regional board member for a group called YPO. So she's in charge of 3,000 CEOs and a network for that. And then she just did a presentation to Europe yesterday on AI herself, and she's going to be traveling to Europe next month to do the presentation in a live setting. And so where I'm going with this is, I feel like because of my cancer battle, because of what we've experienced as a family, and we've learned how precious our time was and how incredible it is to experience that combination of terror and exhilaration, all of us lean into those moments, and we don't do it perfectly, and we all get mad at traffic, and we all are lazy once in a while, and, you know, myself included, but more, we try to do a little bit extra step into that direction, because it has been such a fun way to live after having the scare that we had as a family.Col. Naviere Walkwicz 34:43That makes sense, and I can really see your family embracing that. You know, I want to ask you a question about yourself and what you're doing on a daily basis to be better, and it sounds like you're already thinking about it right? Reinvention on a constant basis. But if there was anything else you would say that you're doing on a daily basis to be better and better is, you know, in quotes, like you define what better is, what would that be?Joel Neeb 35:06Yeah, I think that there's a couple of things that I think we should all try to do if we're trying to be, quote, unquote “better.” As you said, there's a quote I like that that says that we vastly overestimate what we can do in three months and we underestimate what we can do in five years.Col. Naviere Walkwicz 35:27OK, wait, say that one more time. If you don't mind, say it one more time.Joel Neeb 35:30Yeah, really, we overestimate what we can do in three months. “I can't wait for February. I'm going to do X, Y and Z.” And then we disappoint ourselves because we didn't accomplish all those things. And yet we underestimate what we can do in five years. What do I mean by that? It means that if we were intentional about what we wanted to do in the long term, about what we wanted to grow into in years from now, five years from now, you can reinvent yourself to be anything. I think conceivably, any of us could say, “I could accomplish just about anything in five years, if I put my mind to it.” The problem is we think in the short term, and so a lot of us think of I need this happen fast. I need the, you know, in three months. I need this to take place. That's putting the car before the horse. We need to define what we want to be in the long term and then back into what that implies we need to do right now. That also speaks to the focus that I have and saying no to other things, because if I have this big, audacious goal for what I want to be in the long term, then I have to say no to a lot of things if I'm going to take those steps necessary to start marching down that path. And so what I say to folks is that build that long term first, build that vision of what you want to be in the future that's exciting to you, whether that's a fighter pilot or a CEO or you name it, shoot for the stars, whatever that is that you want to be, and then start backing into it and celebrate the fact that you're doing this. In other words, then people get caught up and, you know, I feel like I'm not making enough progress, and I'm mad at myself for not taking enough steps, I would challenge that and say, don't put the pressure on yourself that you have to do this. Reverse that conversation. Say, “I get to, I get to pursue this vision.” Doesn't mean it'll take place. Doesn't mean to occur. But if I have a vision in mind, and I'm taking steps towards it, even if I don't reach it, I'm still going to be in an incredible place that I wouldn't have been otherwise. And so that's, that's the approach that I would take.Col. Naviere Walkwicz 37:18All right, Joel, so what is your big audacious goal in five years that you're working towards?Joel Neeb 37:22Big audacious goal? Yeah, so I am super excited about the future of AI. I think that it has a lot of positive and negative implications for society in general. And so I'll give you a quick example. Right now, we've got 9.5% of our recent graduates that are unemployed, which is much higher than it's ever been from graduating college. That's unique, and what I attribute that to is that we're just starting to see the workforce disruption that's occurring because of AI. We're starting to see the workforce drawdown that's occurring because of it. At the same time, we're seeing companies that are able to do much, much more with AI. And so they're questioning, well, how do I operate as a company? How do I teach everybody to stay on board this training and be successful in this new environment and then societally, we're challenged with, well, how do I set up our young people for success? How do I tell my 19-year-old what to do to do to be successful. So when I think about the big, hairy, audacious goal that I want to go pursue in this next chapter in five years, I want to be on the forefront, helping the government, helping companies, helping everyone to continue disrupting themselves and leaving as few people behind as possible in this next era. Because that's the real threat. And the challenge is cats out of the bag. If we don't do this, China is going to do it like others are going to pass it by. Pass it by. The wrong answer would be to try to step it back in the bag and say we're not doing any I we're going to put regulations around, putting our heads in the sand. We would just get passed by, like, in a few years by our biggest competitors out there, which we know we don't want to have happen. And so the key is, how do we keep as many people up to speed with his transformation possible? So I talked to, you know, graduates like August Pfluger, who's in Congress, and we have, yeah, he's awesome. And so we talk about, what does that look like in the future he's shaping, you know, the future from a government perspective? I talked to former Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger, is a good friend of mine, and we go on vacations together and a conversation we have about from a corporate perspective: How do we address this as well? So that's my big goal. That's what I want to influence over the next couple of years.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:22Love that. So if you could rewind the clock and, you know, tell your young Joel, and this is really for anyone who is looking for preparing myself for that long term, right? So maybe it's not the five year, the big thing in five years, but it's — this is for what can I do today that is gonna — I'm gonna help myself — future me. What would you tell yourself, Joel?
Joel Neeb 39:43If I were to go back to Academy Joel, I would say, “Take this experience more seriously.” At the time, I kind of resented the experience that I was going through at the Academy, not understanding fully that they understood how to polish the coal to try to make it into a diamond. And I didn't always see the method to the madness behind the scenes and why they were doing things. And I would tell myself to take it more seriously, to lean into the leadership opportunities, lean into the experiences. I think it's a tendency as a cadet to lean away from those and to kind of look at those with resentment. I remember I did, and I wish I would have taken those more seriously. I wish I would have taken my 20s more seriously in terms of pursuing things that were uncomfortable, and not just getting comfortable towards the latter end of my 20s and early 30s, where I was flying upside down with ease every single day and really not doing anything that was challenging me too much. I certainly didn't have it all mastered and figured out. But my discomfort was all but gone in those moments. And so I would tell myself, “Keep leaning into those areas of discomfort, because it's in those areas that we find growth.” And growth is one of the top things that we can feel as a human being. Being a part of an elite team is growing together on an inspiring mission.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:56Well, I know that you are, you know, constantly in the forefront of AI, but what makes you or what causes you discomfort now that you're working through?
Joel Neeb 41:05What causes me discomfort now is compelling a 2,400-person organization to move as quickly as I think we need to. In other words: right now. The things I'm talking to you about, I'm communicating with them about on a daily basis, and we have remotely dispersed teams. I'm staring into cameras like we are right now. So I'm not sitting in the room with them and helping them to learn these things. My discomfort is around how as a leader, can I be more compelling about the burning platform that they're standing on right now, that as soon as it burns away, their role is going to be obliterated, and we're going to be disrupted by the market. And how do I really excite them around this destination that we're pursuing together, where we're going a little bit faster than the rate of change? I'm proud of the progress that we've made, but in terms of the discomfort that I'm feeling, it's almost impossible to go fast enough in this era, and so I am. The thing that keeps me up at night is, how do I make this more compelling for them? And then ultimately, I know that whatever themes I'm learning right now to make it compelling is what I'm going to have to bring to society in this next chapter, as well as we try to keep the entire American society moving ahead of the rate of change that we're experiencing.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:14Well, thank you for that. I would imagine you probably phoned your friend, ChatGPT, on some  ways to do that, but I think that what you really shared today has opened, I think, eyes of how we can partner with technology at our fingertips. I mean, you and I were just chatting before this, and I asked you this, because one of the things I remember you being really big on is finding time to read as a family. I remember you had like Saturday family time, we read. As much as you're traveling and as much as you're trying to move your organization at this rate of change with AI, where do you find time to read now?
Joel Neeb 42:47Yeah, so I use AI for that too. So when I'm in the gym, I upload a chapter at a time into ChatGPT for the books that I'm reading, and I ask it to read it to me in the voice thing that it can do. And so it's reading the book to me. But the really cool part is, it's not just audible. I'm not just hearing, you know, the recording of it. And by the way, you can even tell it talk two times faster or whatever you want to do for the right speed. And I'll interrupt it. The cool part is, I'll say, “Hey, wait a second. I didn't really understand that that part of the book. Break it down for me in simpler terms.” And it'll actually pause, explain it to me and put it in terms that my fighter pilot mind can understand, or I'll even say, “Yeah, tell me about that theme in the context of the company that I'm in, 8x8, and tell me how we can apply that right now, and look at our industry. And how can I take some of this to that team?” And so it takes a book that was generically written and makes it customized for my experience by leveraging AI to do that. So once again, it's a thought partner in literally everything that I do.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:42What's the last book that you read in which you were able to take some of those things to, or maybe that you'd recommend to some of our listeners to listen in via ChatGPT.Joel Neeb 43:51I just finished reading the Teddy Roosevelt biography, which is phenomenal. What an incredible American, and it was inspiring to read. And I was able to pause it in parts and challenge some parts of the books and say, “Did that really happen?” And,  “Tell me more about this incident in history.” And it explains some historical pieces that I wasn't aware of and the book didn't delve into as much as I would have liked it to. That's a little bit of a boring historian-nerd kind of answer, but that's what I took away from it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:17Well, thank you for sharing that. So Joel, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you would really like to make sure that we touch on? Because this has been a really exciting and fascinating conversation for me, but I want to make sure, because this has been your leadership journey, and there's so many facets to that that that we hit on the things that are important?Joel Neeb 44:33The thing that I've learned in my time is that the foundation that we receive in the military, whether that's the cultural foundation, how we are all aligned with similar values, with a common mission that's inspiring the adherence to what we call in the business world, standard operating procedures, what you would call in the military, a checklist, effectively. That foundation that we have is easily the most valuable resource that I carried into the business world and the teams that I've been on. And I think we underestimate just how powerful that experience is, that during our 20s, we're in this incredibly disciplined environment with a really strong culture, really strong sense of value, really strong sense of mission. Pay attention to that while you have that opportunity. While you're being exposed to it, pay attention to how it was built. Pay attention to how they that accelerated our success in those teams. Because I promise you, you'll want to someday carry those concepts to every team that you're on in the future. And so I think it's an opportunity for us to leverage the incredible team that we're on in the military, and talk about that in an exciting way with whatever team that we participate on down the road.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:50Thank you for sharing that. And if I could just pull on that thread a little bit more in that just in that transition, and taking those to those teams, I want to just jump to your very first transition from military to Afterburner? How did that come about for you? And I think that just our folks will be curious on that.Joel Neeb 46:10Yeah, so Afterburner is a company that's been around since 1996 and they basically took some of those things from the military that I just spoke to, brought it into a corporate setting and helped them to adopt the same levels of positive outcomes. And when I saw this company, I said, “Wow, they really tapped into something that I that I knew as well intuitively, that if we apply some of these same themes, we could really take over anything in the business world. And so I reached out to the CEO and kept bugging him and continue to stay on his radar until he agreed to bring me into the office in Atlanta. I was living in San Antonio, and I went out there on my own dime and did an interview with them, and it went well. And of course, the rest is history after that point. But I found the thing I wanted to do and pursue, and then a very aggressively got in front of the people that could make it happen and definitely was part of the journey for me that I needed in order to be successful.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:04Yes, I definitely wanted you to share that, because I knew, obviously, you had that experience. You took those things that you learned, and you wanted to hone in as you led other teams. But I think the critical piece was you pursued it, and you continue to pursue it, and you continue to pursue it until you got there, right? And so I think that's a critical part of moving forward and getting what we want. So I really am glad that you shared that, because it may seem that it's really easy just to make the transition, right? You can check all these boxes and so you're the shoe in, but it sounds like that wasn't the case, and you had to make a case for yourself.Joel Neeb 47:39One-hundred percent. I had to be my own biggest advocate, and not in an arrogant way, in a way that I could show I could add value for that team. And that was, that was a lesson that I've taken and tried to apply since then.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:51Well, I'll tell you what, it's been, gosh, 1999. How many years is that? 25 years for us? I mean, I feel like, you know, this has been a true honor to be able to sit with you. I mean, I've always watched your journey and just really been cheering you on, but I think what's incredible is how you're able to now really give back to our Long Blue Line. So Joel, thank you so much for this time today. It's been really wonderful having on Long Blue Leadership.Joel Neeb 48:14What a privilege, Naviere. And I would say, you know, you had just asked me back in 1999 if there's a dozen people from the Academy that I thought would be very successful, your name would have been one of them. I don't think there's another person at the Academy who would have said my name. So we came from very different starting points, but I'm super excited to see the success you created, and, more importantly, the impact that you have on our graduate community, because it is noticed by everyone that I talked to. So thank you for how you lean into that our community as well.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 48:43Thank you for saying that. And as we come to a close, I'd love to offer a few thoughts before we go. What stands out to me today from our conversation is how leadership is both timeless and adaptive. Joel's journey from commanding F-15 missions to leading global organizations and navigating AI reminds us that leadership fundamentals remain steadfast, just like you said, yet in the context in which we lead, it's always evolving, and the ability to adapt is what sets exceptional leaders apart. His story of personal resilience, overcoming stage four cancer diagnosis underscores that leadership is defined by how we respond to challenges and how we make lasting impact. From lessons in the cockpit to corporate transformation and personal discipline. Joel offers a blueprint for leading with confidence in uncertain times. Thank you for investing your time and listening in Long Blue Leadership. I encourage you to share this episode with others who are also in their personal journeys, especially because it's my classmate and he's phenomenal. Thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz; until next time.
 
KEYWORDS
Leadership, leadership development, modern leadership, leadership mindset, growth mindset, resilient leadership, adaptive leadership, transformational leadership, leadership under pressure, leading through adversity, leadership lessons, executive leadership, high performance teams, elite teams, leadership philosophy, leadership strategy, personal growth, professional development, continuous improvement, reinvention, career transition, imposter syndrome, mental toughness, discipline, time management, prioritization, decision making, strategic thinking, innovation leadership, change leadership, leading through change, disruption, self leadership, accountability, peak performance, overcoming fear, stepping outside comfort zone, leadership habits, future of leadership, AI leadership, leadership in the age of AI, digital transformation, organizational culture, team culture, mission driven leadership, purpose driven leadership, high impact leadership.
 
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From combat missions in the F-22 Raptor to more than five months aboard the International Space Station, Lt. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers ’11 has seen it all.
SUMMARY
In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Col. Ayers reflects on mentorship, teamwork and building the next generation of warriors and astronauts.
 
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TOP 10 TAKEAWAYS
1. Leadership is fluid: sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow.On Dragon and the ISS, command shifted between Anne McClain and Takuya Onishi. Everyone alternated between being commander and flight engineer, showing that strong teams normalize moving between leading and supporting roles.
2. Team care starts with self‑care.Vapor repeatedly links sleep, rest, hydration, and health to leadership performance. You can’t be present for others if you’re exhausted or burned out; taking care of yourself is a leadership duty, not a luxury.
3. People first, mission second (to enable mission success).Whether on deployment with 300 personnel or in space with 7, she focuses on taking care of the human—family issues, logistics, burnout, and emotions—trusting that performance and mission execution follow from that.
4. Trust is built long before the crisis.ISS emergency training with all seven crew, plus years of joint training in multiple countries, builds shared understanding and trust. When emergencies happen, the crew isn’t figuring each other out for the first time.
5. Quiet, thoughtful leadership can be incredibly powerful.Takuya Onishi’s style—observant, calm, speaks only when it matters, and brings thoughtful items for others—shows that you don’t need to be loud to command respect. When he spoke, everyone listened.
6. Leadership means being fully present, especially on others’ hard days.In both combat and space, you can’t “hide” when someone’s struggling. Being reachable, attentive, and emotionally available is a core leadership behavior, not a soft add‑on.
7. Normalize mistakes and share lessons learned.From F‑22 sorties to NASA operations, it’s expected that you openly admit errors and pass on lessons so others don’t repeat them. A culture where “experience is what you get right after you need it” only works if people share that experience.
8. Plan for “seasons” of intensity, not permanent balance.She frames life as seasons: some are sprints (deployments, intense training, big trips); others are for recovery. Wise leaders anticipate these cycles, push hard when needed, then deliberately create room to reset afterward.
9. Model the behavior you want your team to adopt.If the commander is always first in, last out, everyone else feels pressure to match that. By visibly protecting her own rest and home life, she gives permission for others to do the same and avoid burnout.
10. Lean on—and be—a support system.Her twin sister, long‑term friends, and professional peers form a lifelong support network she turns to when she fails, doubts herself, or hits something “insurmountable.” Great leaders both rely on and serve as those trusted people for others.
 
 
CHAPTERS
0:00:00 – Introduction & Vapor’s Journey (Academy, F‑22, NASA)
0:00:38 – Launch Scrub, Second Attempt & What a Rocket Launch Feels Like
0:03:33 – First Moments in Space, Floating & Seeing Earth (Overview Effect)
0:06:11 – Leadership & Teamwork in Space: Roles, Trust, and Small-Crew Dynamics
0:10:19 – Multinational Crews & Leadership Lessons from Other Cultures
0:14:47 – No‑Notice F‑22 Deployment & Leading a Squadron in Combat
0:18:14 – Managing Burnout: Scheduling, Human Factors & “Crew‑10 Can Do Hard Things”
0:19:46 – Self‑Care as Team Care: Seasons of Life, Rest, and Being Present
0:26:02 – Family, Being an Aunt, and Balancing a Demanding Career
0:28:14 – Life After Space: Mentoring New Astronauts & Evolving as a Leader
 
 
ABOUT NICHOLE
BIO
U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers is a trailblazing pilot, leader and astronaut whose journey began at the United States Air Force Academy, where she graduated in 2011 with a degree in mathematics. An accomplished F-22 Raptor pilot, Ayers is one of the few women ever to fly the world’s most advanced stealth fighter — and she’s one of even fewer to command them in formation for combat training missions.
Col. Ayers earned her wings through years of training and operational excellence, logging over 200 flight hours in combat and playing a critical role in advancing tactical aviation. Her exceptional performance led to her selection in 2021 by NASA as a member of Astronaut Group 23, an elite class of 10 chosen from among 12,000 applicants.
As a NASA astronaut candidate, Col. Ayers completed intensive training at Johnson Space Center, which included spacewalk preparation, robotics, survival training, systems operations and Russian language. Now qualified for spaceflight, she stands on the threshold of a new chapter that led her to the International Space Station.
Throughout her career, Col. Ayers has exemplified the Academy's core values of Integrity First, Service Before Self and Excellence in All We Do. Her journey from cadet to combat aviator to astronaut is a testament to resilience, determination and a passion for pushing boundaries.
 
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NASA Astronaut Nichole Ayers
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS
Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99
Guest: Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers ’11
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Vapor, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We are so thrilled you're here.
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:11Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:12Absolutely. So the cadets get to spend some time with you at NCLS. Here the Long Blue Line is going to get to hear from you. And you know, we can actually go through the list. You know, F-22 pilot, USAFA 2011 graduate, you've been in combat, you’re a NASA pilot. The list is probably shorter what you haven't done. But, frankly, I'm just excited that you're here on Earth with us, because the last time we spoke, you called me from outer space.Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:35Yeah, that was a lot of fun. That was a lot of chat with you then too.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:38So let's just jump right in. So if we can just kind of catapult you, and let's do it in the way that they that NASA does, into space, maybe starting with the countdown, and then the Gs you take, what is that experience like? And maybe, what are some things you were thinking about in those moments?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:53Oh, yeah. So, you know, we launched on March 14. First attempt was March 12, and we actually scrubbed the first launch. So we got all the way down to T minus 42 minutes right before we armed the launch escape system. So that's kind of a big milestone on the countdown. We were having issues with some hydraulics in the clamp that actually holds on to the rocket wall and then let's go. We weren't quite sure whether it was gonna let go, so they scrubbed the launch then, and it was a fascinating — you don't feel like you've got a ton of adrenaline going, but, you know, you feel kind of like you're in a sim. We do some really phenomenal training. And so when you're sitting on top of the rocket, it feels like you're in a simulator, except it's breathing and living, and the valves are moving, and you can hear the propellant being loaded and all of that. And so there's a very real portion to launch date. But then, coming down off of that adrenaline, we got a day off, thankfully. We could just kind of rest and relax and then go again. So everything went smoother the second try. Of course, you know, everybody's nerves are a little less, and everything was — it just felt calmer the whole way out. But, yeah, when that countdown hits zero, I like to say you're being slingshotted off the Earth. That's how it felt. You know, in that moment, you’re going. There's over a million pounds of thrust, and it's going.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:10I mean, that sounds like a lot. I can't really fathom in my mind what that feels like. Can you describe it?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 2:17You know, so I talked about in an F-22 and an afterburner takeoff, which is the most thrust that we have basically in any airplane on Earth. You know, you get set back in your seat really far. And, if you think of an airliner takeoff, you kind of get set back in your seat a little bit. Multiply that by, like, 10 or 20, and then that happened for nine minutes straight on a rocket. You're just being forcefully set back in your seat for nine minutes straight and just thrown off of the Earth, and in nine minutes, you're in orbit.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:49So when you had your practice, did you experience that level for that long as well?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 2:54For the simulators? So they can't that. We can't necessarily simulate the Gs in the sim. So that's like the one part that, you know, we go through the whole launch, but you're sitting at one G the whole time, and throughout the launch, you know, the Gs build, then we back off the thrust and the Gs build again, and then you have an engine cut off. And I like to explain, like, if you could visualize, like an old cartoon, and everybody's in the car driving, and Dad slams on the brakes, and everybody hits the windshield. And then he slams on the gas again, and everybody goes back to their seats. Like, that's what it felt like when the engine cut off and, you know, main engine cuts off, and then within a few seconds, the second engine lights, and you're set back in your seat again. So I like to give that visual.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:33That's really helpful, actually. Wow. OK, so you're there, you're in space. And I guess my first question would be, what's something that, in that moment, you're either thinking or you're just, are you still just orienting yourself? What is that like?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 3:45Oh, man, you know, we're still in the seats for the first few moments in space, and we have to open the nose cone. There's some other things that are happening on the spacecraft, and getting ready for a burn, for a phasing burn, to get up to and catch up with the International Space Station. But, you know, then eventually you get to unbuckle and get out of your seat and floating for the first time. I got out of my seat and I'm floating there. It felt like, you know, Captain Marvel when she's, like, hanging out. Yeah, that's, that's how I felt. And, you know, I like to give the visual, because it's like, it's just nothing you've ever experienced in your life, you know. And then you look out the window and the view is something, it's indescribable. You know, I don't think we have the right words in the English language to describe what it feels like to look back at Earth from space.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35Was there a moment when you're looking out at Earth — did you kind of play back just different things in your life? Did you think about, you know, significance of things, or, like, scope of things, or even just the vantage point? Did it kind of just change things or were you just in awe at the moment?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 4:49No, I think, you know, we talked about the overview effect, when astronauts specifically look back at Earth, and it hits everybody kind of differently. And for me, I think the biggest thing you know, when you look at a map of the states or a map of the world, you know, every country is a different color, or every state's a different color, and there are lines that describe the borders, right? And those don't exist in in space. Those don't exist like when you can't see different colored states, right? But you can see the Grand Canyon, and you can see the mountains, and you can see the Amazon, and you can see the desert in Africa. And you get to, you know, you get to learn the world geography by colors and terrain. And it's just a really good reminder that, you know, we're all humans, and we're all on this little fragile marble, just trying to take care of each other and trying to take care of Earth. And so I think that's what hit me the most, was just there are no borders, and we're all the same.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:44Gosh, well, it's a unique and probably highly impressive team that you're with. I mean, we know the road to get to becoming a NASA astronaut is certainly one that is very difficult. Starts from many, many, in the 1000s, down to 10. And so, you know, when we think about leadership, and I've heard you share this before with others, you talk about teamwork and leadership, maybe explain a little bit what that's like in space when you're all so highly effective leaders. You know, what does that look like? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 6:12That's a great question. You know, I think for us, it is a very fluid movement, right? You lead one day; you follow the next. And you know, I'll give you an example. So Anne McClain was the commander of SpaceX Crew-10 for NASA. So she was in charge of Crew-10 is our ride up to the space station, and our ride home, right? It's the capsule, the rocket and the capsule. And then we were on Expedition 73 aboard the International Space Station, where Takuya, who it was, Takuya Onishi, who was our mission specialist on Dragon, soon as we crossed into the hatch and he took command. He is now the commander of the Space Station, and Anne and I are flight engineers, and so it's a pretty fluid movement in terms of leading and following. But ultimately, you know, it's just about being a good team and taking care of each other. And I think that being a good leader is taking care of other people. And, you know, we talk about team care — self-care, and team care are like the huge parts that we actually train and learn about at NASA as we go through our training, because you're on this really small space in the vacuum of space for five-plus months at a time, and it's — there are only seven people up there and everybody's going to have a bad day. We're all humans, and you can't, there's no hiding.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:30What's a bad day like in space?
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 7:32People make mistakes, right? We're all human. You might make a mistake on something, you might mess up a procedure. You hope that it's not something that causes a safety incident, right? The main goal for me, at least, was, I know I'm going to make mistakes. As long as I'm not unsafe, I'll be happy. And I think that a lot of us have that conscious decision-making process. But I think that we're also humans and have Earth lives, and your Earth life doesn't stop when you go to space. And so bad days could be something going on at home. Bad days could be something going on in space. Could be an interaction that you had with somebody on the ground that, you know, there's a lot of communication that happens between us on the ground. There are thousands of humans on the Earth that keep the Space Station running. So that day could be anything but it’s tough to hide up there. Here, you can kind of like, duck and cover and maybe you just spend the day in an office. But it doesn't happen up there. We have to continue to work and continue to function.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:32So you mentioned that there are seven of you in this tight space. Now, when you go up there, your crew, is it the same seven?
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 8:38For the majority of the time.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:42OK, excellent. So one of the things we think about whenever we're leading or we're working with teams is trust, and obviously you have a great amount of trust with the crew that you're going up there with. But then you mentioned you went on to the ISS and you're working with others. What does that look like when it's someone maybe you haven't worked as closely with in a really important mission?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 9:03So for the seven expedition members, we actually do train together for a little bit of it, not nearly as closely as, you know, the four of us training for Dragon mission. But because the most dynamic parts are launch and landing, we do a lot of training together, just as the four of us, but we train all over the world. So we go to Japan and Germany and Canada, and we go to, you know, Hawthorne, California, and we go to Russia, and we train with them, and we learn about the Russian segment, and we train with our fellow cosmonauts there. And we do emergency training specifically all together, because it takes all seven of us in an emergency doing the right thing and knowing everybody's roles. And so we train that together as well. And then anytime you're in the same country or same city together, then you get to spend the time outside of the training to get to know each other. And so you actually know your crew fairly well. But obviously, everybody's from a different nation. And we had Americans, we had a Japanese astronaut, we had Russians, so you learn everybody's culture, and it's actually, you know, to your point on being in that small — and not necessarily knowing everybody. There's also a cultural aspect; we get to know each other. We get to learn about other people's cultures and figure out how to communicate and live and work, even across the whole world.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:19What was something that you learned from another culture of astronaut, maybe in the leadership realm, or just something that you took away, that's really something that surprised me, or like to emulate?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 10:30I love Taku’s leadership style. So Takuya Onishi — he's one of those more quiet humans, and he's super kind, but he is the most intelligent human I've ever met, and he is super-efficient with everything he does, and he pays attention to all of the little things. And so he only speaks up when he thinks something needs to be changed, or when he thinks that, like, we need to go in a different direction, otherwise, he's pretty happy to let you go, like, let you go as far as you want to go on something. And then when he thinks you're gonna run off a cliff, he pulls you back. So when he speaks, everybody listens. And I love that. I think some of that is cultural, obviously, him being from Japan, but I think it's also just his personal leadership style, but I learned a ton from him in terms of how to interact with people, how to let people be themselves, but also how to run a ship, and everybody knew exactly who was running the ship.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:22Wow. And it shows that respect lens that you're just kind of talking about when he spoke. Everybody listens. Is that something that you feel you already had that kind of leadership style or is that something that you've kind of evolved in yourself?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 11:37I like to think that that's the way that I lead. That's kind of how I try to be a leader. But we're not perfect, right? Nobody's perfect. And watching him, you know, taking notes from how he interacted with everybody, the things that he thought of, the things that he brought with him for us on station, you know, we get a very limited amount of stuff, personal things that we get to bring with us. And he brought things for the crew that were like, huge milestones for professional careers. You know, just the attention to detail on the human beings around him was pretty phenomenal. So it's one of the things I'm working on to be better at, because I like to think I'm good at it. But I saw the master work.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:18I love that. And something you said about him, he always has attention to detail, and he saw the little things. He paid attention to the little things. I remember a past conversation we had. You had a little nugget from Col. Nick Hague, also USAFA — ’98 I believe. And I think he said to you, something about, you know, “Nicole, don't forget that you're squishy,” or something like that. And so have you had more of those moments in there where they're like little nuggets or little moments that actually give you a big return or big lessons in your life?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 12:46Oh, definitely, yeah, that one's a funny one, because the space station is metal. Everything is metal, and it's hard and so we still have weight, well, mass. We still have mass. We don't have weight, right, because we're in microgravity. But if you're cooking around a corner and you run into a handrail, it's gonna hurt, you know, if you imagine going 10 or 15 mph into something metal, it's gonna hurt — you're squishy. So that was a great lesson in slowing down and making sure you're watching your surroundings. But one of the things that Anne McClain says that cracks me up, but every time it happens, like, “Yep, this is definitely—," she says, “Experience is that thing you learn right after you need it.” And so we had a lot of those moments where you learn a lesson and you're like, “Ah, I wish I knew that five minutes ago.” And so that's something that applies everywhere. Experience is that thing you always needed right before that happened. But we also like to say Crew-10 can do hard things. That's another thing that was just kind of our motto, whether it's training — some of the training can be really physically demanding. It's really mentally demanding. And it's a lot of travel. When you get assigned to a mission, it's probably a year and a half to two years of training, and then you're gone for six months. So out of that two to two and a half years, you're not home for over a year. So you're all over the world, traveling to train and work. And like I said, we're all humans. We have Earth lives, we have homes, you get situations back home. And so navigating personal lives, navigating professional lives, navigating tough training. Crew-10 can do hard things. We like to say that.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:22I like that. It also talks a bit about your grit. Crew-10 grit. So, talking about hard things, I'd like to take us to the time when you've been piloting the F-22 and you've seen combat. I heard you speaking a little bit before about a no-notice deployment. Let's visit that time in your life. What were you doing? What was your role, and what was something you experienced? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 14:47Sure. So I was actually flying the day that we got notified. And, you know, just a standard training sortie — had landed, and some of the maintainers were like, “Hey, have you heard what's happening?” And I was like, “No, what's happening?” And then we had a big squadron meeting, and that's when we got notified, like, “Hey, we're deploying.” We were on the GRF, is what it was called at the time, Global Response Force, and I think some of that structure has changed since I left that squadron, but we knew that once we were on the GRF, there was a chance that we would get activated and get moved somewhere. Didn't necessarily expect it to be quite that quick. I think it was like the next week we got this deployment. So we got notified on a Thursday, I think, and then on Monday, I was taking off.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:31Oh, really no notice.
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 15:33Yeah, so, four days later, we were taking off, and then seven days later, we were flying missions from — we were stationed at Al Udeid Air Base, so we're flying out of Al Udeid within a week.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:45How many with you?
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 15:47So when we deploy, we actually deploy with our maintenance squadrons, 300 people. Twenty to 30 of them are the pilots, and then the rest are the maintainers. And so it's the entire squadron. We morph into an expeditionary squadron. And so there are 300 people that head out.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:03So I imagine, you know, on top of the fact that it was such a rapid movement, there's probably things that people had to obviously work through family. This needs to happen. But what were some things that you experienced in that deployment, or even in just that transition?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 16:21Again, I go back to taking care of people. I was a flight commander at the time. We had two flight commanders, so I'm in charge of basically half the squadron, and we had a really wonderful commander who gave us the authority and the autonomy to leave the squadron. So, you know, it's about saying, like, “How are you guys doing at home?” Half our squadron didn't even have tan flight suits. You know, we're trying, we're working with logistics. We're trying to get everything ready. Like, does everybody have a go bag? Does everybody even know what a go bag is? Do you have the things you need? So working all of that. And then do you have the childcare figured out? Do you have the — how is all your family doing? Are you ready for this? And then we had to do a bunch of last-minute training before we left. And so it's a really busy time, but it was one of the first times where I felt like I had an influence on the people that were under me, that I had supervised. And so it was a really great experience to solve those problems, figure it out and help people get off the ground in four days successfully, and leaving something, some semblance of structure at home.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:24So you said it was the first time where you kind of really felt that you had that impact. What would you say kind of maybe crystallized within yourself in learning that?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 17:36I think it really solidified. I think I said, “I try to lead by taking care of people,” right? I truly believe if you take care of the human, they're going to do a really great job. You don't have to ask much of people at work and in their professional life, if their personal and the human side of them is taken care of and so that's kind of what I mean when I say that solidified it for me, like, make sure that the humans are good to go, and they'll go do anything you want to do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:04Wow. So while on that deployment, you're leading half of that squadron. What were some of the challenges maybe that you experienced, and how did you grow as a leader during that timeframe?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 18:14Scheduling is definitely a tough one. So we flew daytime and nighttime. We basically had an F-22 airborne for almost 24 hours a day for the entire six months, six and a half months. We left and we were told it might be two- or three-month deployment, and then it turned into six months. And then we got delayed up coming home. And so then we stayed through Christmas. And those are the things that really are tough for people. But we have a limited number of jets that we took. We have a limited number of pilots; we have a limited number of maintainers and parts. And so I think for us, managing a schedule between me and the other flight commander, managing a schedule, managing quality of life for everybody, and make sure that we're not burning people out, or that they're not —we're flying eight-, nine-, 10-hour sorties, right? And that's exhausting. It's just you and that airplane with your wingman and a different airplane. And so you have to manage, again, that human factor. The human capital is probably the toughest thing to manage.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15Wow, and you talked about how the deployment kind of got extended. What were some things, because many of our listeners and our viewers are leaders, and at different levels of leadership and different times in their lives where they're doing that. When you were leading, and you had some of those subordinates, or those that were working with you that really experienced some troubles, through emotions, through some of that. How did you help navigate them through that when you were all in that as well?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 19:46Right. You know, I think at NASA especially, we talk about self-care being a huge part of team care. And so making sure I do this in my regular life too, but, you know, making sure that you're getting enough rest, making sure that you're taking care of yourself and your personal life, so that you can truly be present for the other people that need you. And I think being present for others is one of the biggest things that you can do. You know, they may not need a ton of help, or they may not need the solution, but being there, being available and being present for people is really important. But you can't do that unless you're good to go yourself.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:18Did you see that from someone? Did you learn that from someone you saw doing that? Or just, how did, I mean NASA's — you said, NASA, but did you see that at the Academy? Or where did you kind of gather that?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 20:28You know, I think one of the things that hit me hard about showing up and being present was actually more professional. I kind of skated through the Academy on minimal sleep, and I was able to manage everything. But I wasn't flying a $143 million airplane. And so, in pilot training, we started to talk about crew rest and pilot rest. That's the first time that I had heard this concept of, “You need to go home and get rest so that you can be on your game.” Because flying airplanes, your decisions have real consequences, right? And you have to be present and available, and you have to be on your game to fly airplanes and do well in airplanes. And then the faster and the higher and the better the airplane gets, the more on your game you have to be. So I think it's something that has just kind of evolved in me. And then, as a leader, I realized, if you don't have any gas in the tank, you cannot help somebody else. And so for me, it's just kind of been, over the last decade and a half, of, wow, I need my sleep. I need to make sure I'm good to go. I need to make sure my human is good, so that way I can help other humans. And yeah, when your decisions have real consequences, it's important that you're present and you're ready to go.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43Have you seen some of the fact that you prioritize that for yourself, for you as your own human? Have you seen others kind of like see that, view that, and actually take that on as well themselves.Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 21:53Yeah, I think they do. And I think, as a leader, it's really important to set that example. The commander cannot be the first one in last one out. Like, you just can't do that, because everybody's going to stay until you leave. So setting the example, setting the example of having a good home-life balance as well. Like, home and work have to be balanced. Sleep has to be balanced. Again, self-care is the biggest part of team care, I think. And if you model that, people start to realize it's important. You know, the younger people that might burn themselves out trying to get somewhere, trying to get to the next step, or trying to impress somebody, or whatever the case may be, if they see you taking a step back and they see your success, maybe then they can start worrying about themselves too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:34I think that's a great lesson, leading by example. For sure. There are probably moments that you experience both at the Academy, while flying the F-22 or as an astronaut, where you don't have the luxury of balance. How do you navigate that and how do you help others get to that space maybe quicker?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 22:53I think of everything as a season in life. It might just be a busy season, and you might just have to put some time in but making sure that you are planning ahead and know that you're gonna be able to take some time and reset. And that could be anything, right? That could be personal life, professional life. That could be the four-week training trip that we've got is going to be rough, and its multiple time zones, and it's a ton of training, it's a ton of information. You just have to get through it. But then, that week, when we got home, I made sure my schedule was a little lighter. Whatever the balance is, I think of things in seasons. Crew-10 can do hard things, right? And that came from — you can get through this next training session, right? But we're gonna do a mask-to-suit transition, which is like in a fire, you've got a mask on. You have to get from that mask into your spacesuit. It's a significant physical event. And there's limited oxygen; there's limited ability to breathe in the suit when in that specific environment. And so how do you slow down, take the breaths you need to get in there to not then get to a point where you're panicking, right? Or that you're too exhausted or too hot or overdid, or whatever it is, right? So I think even just that, that is a season. We're going to do two hours of this. That's my season, and then we'll get out of the simulator, we'll take a break, right? And if it happened on orbit, it would be like, “We're going to get through this. We're going to solve the problem. We're going to manage the emergency, and then once things are set, we'll have a moment to breathe.” So that's kind of how I think of it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:21Did seasons come something, a term that you kind of realized maybe at the Academy, you were a volleyball athlete at the Academy, and so volleyball has a season. But my question is, like, how did you come to that realization? Like, “Oh, I can get through this, and I put it in a bucket of time.”Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 24:35You learn a lot of time management at the Academy, and when you're in the fall, you're really busy, spring season is less busy, and so you kind of learn early how to manage. Like, “OK, I’ve got to run. I gotta sprint,” right? “And then I can jog later, or I can walk later.” So, I think you learn that growing up in school, and you know, if you play sports or you do extracurricular activities or other things like that, or even just seasons in life at home, life ebbs and flows. I don't even know when I started saying it, but my sister and I started saying “seasons of life” to each other a long time ago. You know, she's got three kiddos, so she's been in all sorts of seasons. But, yeah, it's just, you know, I think I started to time block things, or block things off and just, and that's the only way you're going to get through life, is if you focus on what you need to do right now, be good at it, and then move to the next thing. You can have an idea of what's coming next, but you have to be present and do what you're doing there. Yes, so, yeah, seasons, time, blocks, whatever you want to call it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:39I like that. Well, you brought up your sister, and so you're an auntie of three. Let's talk about your personal life and leadership, some experiences you've had navigating your schedule. You're on the road so much. How do you prioritize? I guess the things that are important to you when you have such a heavy schedule, yeah, being on the road and the people that are important to you, right?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:03Man, I think that for me, my family has been a huge support system my whole life. My twin sister — built in best friend.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:13And who is older?
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:14She is. She's got me by a minute.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:18OK. Does she hold that over you?
 
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:20Yes, of course she does. We've just always supported each other 100% and everything. She's been my biggest cheerleader through all of my life, and I've been her biggest cheerleader through all of her life. And you know, my main goal in life is to be the coolest auntie, like the best auntie, and I would die happy. And they're a huge priority to me. I see them every couple two to three months — since my oldest has was born. So for the last 14 years, just made it a priority, even if it's like, leave late on a Friday night and then get home late Sunday night, I make the effort to go see them and to interact with them. And you know, to help foster them. You know they're growing up. And I love watching kids grow up and experience the world and see what can be done. Their dad's a Marine, their mom's this really successful real estate agent, their auntie’ a pilot-slash-astronaut. You know, they've got, like, all these no family that's really not doing very much. Yeah, you know, they'vegot all these really great role models. And my goal is to just show them that it doesn't matter who you are, like they only ever know me as auntie. Like they know I'm an astronaut, and they love that. Their friends know that I'm an astronaut. Anti vapor, no, no, yeah. But, you know, like, they're always gonna get a big hug from auntie, like, that's, that's what's important to me.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:36Well, you mentioned, going into space, being an auntie. So, would you describe your time and space is, it's probably out of this world. I mean, that's, wow, that's terrible. That's terrible I said it that way. But I think you've mentioned it is kind of the best time in your life.Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 27:52Yeah. Best five months my life.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:56Best five months of your life, and it's passed. Now, when we think about our evolution, whether personally, professionally, as leaders, etc., we have these ideas in our mind, like, this is the pinnacle. How do you navigate what's next after you've experienced that pinnacle?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 28:14Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's something that a lot of us struggle with when we come home. What's next? We get six months, some time to think and kind of get reintegrated. And you don't necessarily have to go back to work right away. I was able to spend a ton of time with my sister and her kiddos. Yeah, what's next. And I think for me, like the drive out to the launch pad, I was like, “Man, I've made it.” You know, the first time I looked out the window from Dragon, “I've made it.” First time we crossed the hatch, and I went and looked out the glass like, “Wow. The hard work paid off.” And I still feel like that to this day. I would have spent four more months in space if they had asked me to, and I would have turned around and launched right back then the day that we landed, and it was because of the crewmates that I spent it with and the fulfillment that I got from the mission. But I think you can find fulfillment in a lot of ways. And you know, my job, now that I've been back, I'm going to be working with the new class of astronauts and their training for spacewalk. So in the Neutral Buoyancy Lab, our big pool, like, my job is to be their mentor as they go through the spacewalk training. And you know, like, I cannot wait. I'm so excited. I cannot wait to have an impact and try to help teach this next generation of spacewalkers, this next generation of astronauts, to be better than us. I find a lot of fulfillment in making the next generation better. So I think, however the fulfillment shows up for people, I think as long as you can find something, there you'll be happy. Going to space was great, but teaching and instructing and mentoring is also really fulfilling for me.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:54And that will be 10 of them? How many will that be?
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 29:55Ten.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:56Ten. So then you'll have 13. You'll be auntie to 13. Oh, that's wonderful. What have you learned about yourself since then? You know, you've evolved as a leader through different situations, high threat, high risk. Safety is paramount. All of those different experiences. And now you're back on Earth and you're about to, you know, mentor. How have you evolved your leadership, and where would you say you're trying to go?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 30:23Where am I trying to go? I think, for me, leadership is also about being vulnerable and being open and honest with people about failures or hardships and so, you know, like in the flying community, if you make a mistake, you're immediately like, “Hey, I messed this up. Here's how we fix it.” And that's something that we do at NASA as well, especially on a grand scale, right? Thousands of employees and everybody like, that's the only way that we get to space is by admitting when we've made mistakes, talking to each other about how we fix it and sharing those lessons learned. And so I think that especially when you get into the higher roles of leadership, it's important to go, “Hey, I messed up,” or, “Hey, I don't know the answer.” And being transparent with the people that you're working with. And if you don't know it, but you know where to go find it, like, “I'll get that answer for you,” instead of making up an answer, trying to figure out how to look like you're in charge, right? It's really important to me to also show that we don't know everything. We're human. We make mistakes, and it's OK to make mistakes, as long as you share it, and you share the lessons learned, and you make the next person better.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:32Did you experience that personally? Did you have a moment in which you had to say, “Hey, I made a mistake,” and that's helped you realize that being vulnerable is really important or is that just something you've seen done really well?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 31:40Oh, I've admitted a lot of mistakes. You know, I made a couple pretty big mistakes in the Raptor. Everybody's gonna make a big mistake at some point in their life. And, you know, I think that that was something that was modeled really well in the flying community early on. And it's something that's not tolerated if you're not willing to share your lessons learned. It's not tolerated in that community. That’s a really good thing. I learned that in pilot training, right? If your buddy in your class makes the same mistake the next day that you made, you get in trouble because you didn't tell them how to how to prepare. And so it's fostered early on, especially in the flying community. I can't speak to any other community because I grew up there, but it's fostered early on, and so it's just something that comes naturally. I think eventually, because you just, you've seen it done so many times, and if you want other people to succeed, you're going to do it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:29All right. Well, we have two questions left. The first one is, what's something you do every day to be a better leader?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 32:37That's a good one. This is gonna sound silly, but I sleep. Like, I'll go back to the self-care thing, right? Like, I put a lot of attention into being healthy, being hydrated, sleeping well. Like, if you take care of your body, your mind is going to do way more for you. And so I think you can show up as a better leader if you show up, rested, hydrated, fed, worked out whatever you need to do to be the best human you can be.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:09That's what I try to do. OK. I like that a lot, and I think that's a good indication for me that six hours is probably not enough. Naviere needs a little bit more. And it's truth, because you told me, though I'm gonna do that. The second one is, if you could go back in time, maybe what's something you would have told yourself — your younger self — or maybe, as our cadets are listening, that you've learned and what they can be doing now to be a better leader down the road.Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 33:34If you run into a hardship or you fail at something, or something feels insurmountable, or you don't feel like you're ready, good enough, or whatever the case may be, doubt starts to seep in, right? I would say, rely on the support system that you have. Rely on the people around you. Talk about it. Figure out, you know, “Hey, I failed this GR, like, man, this kind of sucks.” And you know, maybe you just need to hear me say it out loud, and maybe I just need to get it off my chest, or maybe I need help trying to figure out the solution for whatever the case may be. So, you know, I had a built-in team on the volleyball team. I had a built-in friends and teammates that I could lean on. Maybe that's your squadronmates or your classmates, or whoever it is, right? And I think finding the friends that you can rely on for the rest of your life. Professionally, I've got a friend here that I met in the F-22 community. We've been friends for almost a decade now, and he's still one of the first people that I call when something happens, like, “Oh, I messed this up today. Help.” So, you know, finding a support system. My sister's the other person that I call first off.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:38She probably knows you're gonna call when you call.
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 34:39Yeah, we talk way too much. But, you know, having that support system around you and finding people that really bolster you and get you across that line and help you find the courage to take the next step, I think that's really important.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:54I know I said there was only two, but as I've listened to you, I just think you're just you're just remarkable, and maybe what's something that you're proud about yourself as a leader. I would really love to hear that in your, you know—Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 35:05I think the thing that makes me the most proud as a leader is when somebody succeeds and it's something that I helped them do. I've had somebody come back and say, “Thanks for saying that.” That pushed me out the edge, you know, like, I'm really into building the next generation and make them better than us. And so if I see somebody succeeding, that's good.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:27Well, this has been incredible. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you would love to share with the Long Blue Line in our community?Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 35:33Oh, man, the community is great. I think I would just say thank you to the community. I've gotten so much love and support from Coloradans, but also the Long Blue Line and the Air Force in general. You know, I love the community that we have. It goes right back to what I just said, right, finding a community that supports you and pushes you to do better and be better. And this is that community.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:55Well, Vapor, I promise I'm gonna get more sleep, and I just want to thank you for being such an incredible leader and guest here on Long Blue Leadership.
Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 36:03Thanks for having me back. Absolutely.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:05Thanks. You know, this conversation was really incredible with Vapor. I think some of the things that really stood out to me is just how incredible as a human she is. She brings humanity into leadership. She puts people first. She thinks about the team. She works hard. Don't forget to prioritize sleep. But I think really, some of the lessons that we can all take away can hit us all personally, because if you think about people first and taking care of them, and the fact that you have to take care of yourself too, you can go really far in leadership. So I really appreciate her today on Long Blue Leadership. And I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Until next time.
 
KEYWORDS
Joel Neeb, Long Blue Leadership, Air Force Academy leadership, USAFA leadership, military leadership podcast, leadership development, leadership lessons, character-based leadership, leadership under pressure, leading with integrity, decision making in leadership, mentorship and leadership, values-based leadership, service before self, leadership mindset, leadership podcast interview, military leadership stories, leadership for professionals, leadership for entrepreneurs, how to be a better leader, leadership growth.
 
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 
 

What does courage look like under fire? In captivity? In command? In service?
This edition of Long Blue Leadership was recorded on location at the U.S. Air Force Academy’s 33rd National Character and Leadership Symposium. We've explored these questions with our guests and captured the conversations for you.
Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist for the Air Force Academy Association and Foundation, hosts this special episode featuring voices shaped by combat, crises and lifelong service. Their message to cadets is clear: Leadership is earned through character, and character is forged in hard moments.
- Seg. 1: Lt. Col. Mark George and C1C Jaime Snyder, officer and NCLS cadet director, respectively, set the stage for this year's NCLS and for the podcast.- Seg. 2: Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel "DT" Del Toro on courage in times of crisis. - Seg. 3: Task Force Hope developer and facilitator Maj. Tara Holmes on preparing future leaders to handle crisis before it happens.- Seg. 4: Former POW Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier ’64, on leading in circumstances out of your control. - Seg. 5: Annapolis grad and Vietnam-era aviator, Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb on how character breeds courage.
All of our guest’s lives and careers reflect the reality of this year’s theme through combat, crisis and service.
 
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS: - Host, Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist, United States Air Force Academy Association and Foundation - Seg. 1: C1C Jaime Snyder, NCLS Cadet Director; Lt. Col. Mark George, NCLS Officer - Seg. 2: Senior Master Sargent Israel Del Toro - Seg. 3: Maj. Tara Holmes, Task Force Hope - Seg. 4: Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier ’64 - Seg. 5: Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb
 
Ted Robertson 0:00Welcome to Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of the 33rd annual National Character and Leadership Symposium. I'm Ted Robertson, multimedia and podcast specialist for the Air Force Academy Association & Foundation, coming to you from Polaris Hall located here at the United States Air Force Academy. This year's symposium centers on the theme Courage to Lead in the Profession of Arms: Combat and Crisis-tested Character, where attendees and cadets will explore how courage in all its forms shapes leaders when uncertainty, fear and consequence are real. Our coverage will start with the Center for Character and Leadership Development’s Lt. Col. Mark George and NCLS director, Cadet 1st Class Jaime Snyder. They’ll set the stage not only for NCLS, but for today's coverage. Then we'll talk with four key leaders speaking at the symposium, including Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel Del Torro on keeping courageous during times of crisis. We’ll also talk with Task Force Hope developer and facilitator, Maj. Tara Holmes, on preparing leaders to handle crisis before it happens. Then, former POW, Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier, USAFA Class of ’64, on leading in circumstances out of your control. And finally, Annapolis grad and Vietnam-era aviator, Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb, on how character breeds courage. All of our guests’ lives and careers reflect the reality of this year's theme through combat, crisis and service. So I want to bring in our first two guests to help, as I said, frame the discussion today. We're going to dig in to learn what this is all about and sort of the “why” behind it. Cadet Jaime Snyder, 2026 NCLS director. Cadet Snyder, you've helped lead the organizing of the National Character and Leadership Symposium — 33rd year for this, as you know, and part of that work, you've trained cadets and permanent party. I'm going to ask you to explain permanent party, all of which helps strengthen your own public speaking and leadership communication skills. You want to kind of expound on that a bit?C1C Jaime Snyder 2:20Yes, sir. So a part of my role being in NCLS is to, one, provide the guidance, the support and resources on the cadet side to succeed. But what really makes NCLS special is that we integrate permanent party with cadets. So oftentimes me, in supporting and training permanent party, is giving them cadet perspective, because while they're over here and the Center for Character and Leadership Development, we're over there in the Cadet Wing, and I can be the mediator between both parties.Ted Robertson 2:46Let's talk a little bit about permanent party. What does that term mean? Who does that describe?C1C Jaime Snyder 2:52Oh yes. Permanent party describes the civilian and military faculty that works in the Center for Character and Leadership Development that assists with the execution of NCLS — the National Character and Leadership Symposium.Ted Robertson 3:05How big is the team behind this event every year?C1C Jaime Snyder 3:08It's kind of complex where we'll get search cadets. We'll get a large number of volunteers, approximately around 300 from the Cadet Wing. Internal staff consists of 50 cadets who work it throughout the entire year, and around 50 staff members who are permanent party who work in the Center for Character and Leadership Development.Ted Robertson 3:29I want to bring in next Lt. Col. Mark George, who is the experiential and training division chief and NCLS program director, the very fortunate man that gets to work for some incredibly talented cadets.Col. Mark George 3:43That is absolutely true. Thanks to for having us on. Cadet Snyder has done an outstanding job leading this team. I came into this a little bit late. You know, we've had some reorganization here at the Academy, and after some shuffling, I got the honor and the privilege to take over NCLS while the planning was well underway. So my job was to just make sure this train kept rolling, that people had the resources that they needed, the top cover they needed. And as Jamie said, he was training me as a permanent party member to make sure that I had the cadet perspective. And then, you know, we were moving this ball forward as we got to this event.
Ted Robertson 4:23So coming up in the podcast we’ll get to the sort of “why” and what’s at the core of NCLS. Colonel, let’s start with you. What is National Character and Leadership Symposium designed to do for cadets?
 
Col. Mark George 4:38Sure. The National Character and Leadership Symposium — NCLS — is designed to bring exemplars that embody the core values and the traits that we want cadets to have when they become leaders on Day 1 and inspire them to a lifetime of service.
 
Ted Robertson 4:57Cadet Snyder?
 
C1C Jaime Snyder 4:59We definitely see at USAFA, there is a clear correlation with NCLS and character development. One thing we want cadets to get out of NCLS is to further develop leaders of character who are going to join the fight in the Air Force and Space Force, and that's why I see the epitome of NCLS as it's an opportunity to hear people's perspectives as well as learn from it and apply it to their daily lives.
Ted Robertson 5:24Gentlemen, this year's theme focuses on the courage to lead in the profession of arms. Cadet Snyder, we'll start with you. How did that theme come together, and why is it especially relevant for cadets right now?C1C Jaime Snyder 5:40With our current structure at USAFA, we've had some implement of change. We recognize that the future war conflict is more prevalent than ever, and that it's important for the cadets to understand that we're changing the way we approach training, as well as what we're learning in curriculum. So this NCLS was an incredible opportunity to discuss courage when leading in the profession of arms, but furthermore, courage and crises-tested character. Which is what we're trying to further push along with what we do in training as well as what we teach in leadership.Ted Robertson 6:15You make good decisions when your character is strong. You make those decisions with integrity when your character is intact and it's strong. Would you agree with that, Colonel?Col. Mark George 6:25Absolutely. And I think Cadet Snyder hit the nail on the head that we really want the cadets to understand that the environments that they're stepping into are going to require that courage to do hard things. In my day, like we didn't necessarily think about the fight in that way. You know, we were kind of stovepiped in. And these cadets, whatever environment they may be stepping into, the next conflict is going to require a lot, a high demand of them, and their character is their foundation for that.
Ted Robertson 6:59One of the things you can say about this event is that it brings together voices from combat, crisis, athletics, academia and industry. How intentional is that mix, Cadet Snyder, and what do cadets gain from hearing such different perspectives on leadership and character?
C1C Jaime Snyder 7:18I think by hearing different perspectives, you get to see how universal courage is. When we say courage, it's not just one thing, it's also moral, social, spiritual. And by looking at different versions of courage, you can understand that there's different ways to actually apply courage. Understanding that courage is not the absence of fear, also knowing that courage is not simply being a confident individual. That it's more complex than you may define courage, and so you can then apply it that way — by looking at different perspectives.
Ted Robertson 7:53Colonel, I'll address this one to you as well.Col. Mark George 7:56Sure. Courage — we're talking about courage here, and there's a heavy focus on the combat side with this year's speakers. The thing that sticks out to me is that courage always involves a decision to do the hard thing. And that's what all of our speakers brought this year. They're showing how in different environments, whether it's in a prison cell in Hanoi or up on the Space Station or — there's a hard decision and the right thing is sometimes pretty obvious, but it doesn't mean it's easy. It does not mean it's easy to do. And so courage always involves a decision to do the right thing.Ted Robertson 8:39Cadet Snyder?C1C Jaime Snyder 8:40What he said I find to be very true — understanding that courage is not simply doing something physical, but also in a leadership role, especially — we're talking to cadets who are going to soon be commissioned officers. It's important to know that you need to make the right decision on and off the battlefield.Ted Robertson 8:58So from your perspective as a cadet — and this one is just for you, Cadet Snyder — what does it mean to help shape an event like NCLS while you’re still developing as a leader yourself?C1C Jaime Snyder 9:10What I've seen through NCLS is taking the time to relax. Don't focus on the future and focus where you're at right now, and that's character development. So don't let the pursuit of tomorrow diminish the joy today. We all have this aspiration to graduate, throw our hats in the air, Thunderbirds fly over. But right now it's important to focus on character development as that's going to be important as future officers.
Ted Robertson 9:35That makes 1,000% very clear sense. But I do want to ask you, less than 100 days from the day you toss your hat — you're giving me a big smile right now — talk about how that feels right now for you.
C1C Jaime Snyder 9:47It's incredible, and a part of it is less daunting, because I can say this institution has really prepared me to commission, and so it's more liberating than daunting for me.Ted Robertson 9:58Col. George, I'm going to direct this one straight to you, and this is an ask of you from the leadership perspective: How do we events Like NCLS fit into the broader effort to intentionally develop leaders of character here at the Academy.
Col. Mark George 10:14So I get the honor of leading the experiential and training division in the Center for Character and Leadership Development. So we're all about creating experiences and those opportunities for cadets to have different types of environments where they'll learn about character. And right now, NCLS is an opportunity to listen to where people's character was tested, how they overcame it. And then we also have different events that we try to put the cadets in where we'll actually test their character. And that could be on the challenge tower, it could be through our character labs where we're having discussions. NCLS is a huge part of that, because the planning cycle is so long.
Ted Robertson 10:59Cadet Snyder?
C1C Jaime Snyder 11:00Yes, sir. One thing I wanted to add on to that is with NCLS, one thing that makes this event the most unique experience that I've had is the fact that we get to engage in meaningful dialog. This isn't a brief. This is an experience for everyone who attends. I've had the opportunity to talk to Col. George's son, who aspires to possibly come to the Air Force Academy. So I don't want to say this is just for cadets, but it's also a promotion tool. And understand that what we do at NCLS is very important. And anyone who wants to attend can come and see what we're doing and how important it is.
 
Col. Mark George 11:33I want to thank you for that, by the way. He looks up to you, and that meant a lot.
 
Ted Robertson 11:37That's pretty visionary stuff. That's touching the next generation. That's fantastic. All right, this is for you both. When cadets look back on NCLS years from now, what do you hope they're going to remember feeling or being challenged to do differently?
 
C1C Jaime Snyder 11:56There is a very strong human component to NCLS, and with that, there's a human experience. Understanding that we're getting speakers and we'll see their bios that they're incredible. They have incredible stories of making the right decision when tensions were high, and getting to hear their stories and understand that they ultimately were no different than we are. Some of them were Air Force Academy graduates. Some graduated from the Naval Academy, West Point, other colleges, but they were young, 20-year-old people like we were as cadets. And so getting to understand where they're coming from, human experience is vital to NCLS, and how do we grow and understand where they're coming from?
Ted Robertson 12:38Col. George?
Col. Mark George 12:39 Yeah, I think what I would want the cadets to remember is how these speakers made them feel. You're right, you won't remember every nugget of wisdom that was said. I just had the opportunity to talk with Gen. Scott Miller, and he was an incredible leader. And I feel like everything he was saying was gold. I wish I'd been able to write it down. But he really makes you feel like you understand just how important your role is going to be as a young leader. And when you come away as second lieutenants from this place, you've had incredible opportunities and now you're stepping out in the real world. I would think I want the cadets to remember that like, “Hey, what I do matters, and how I lead is very important to getting this mission done.”
 
Ted Robertson 13:24Lt. Col. Mark George and C1C Jaime Snyder, officer and cadet in charge of the 33rd NCLS. Congratulations on the event. Well done, and thank you for spending time here with us on the podcast today. Hearing from both the cadet perspective and the senior leadership behind NCLS makes one thing very clear: This symposium is intentionally designed not just to inspire but to prepare future leaders for moments when character will be tested. And that brings me to my first featured guest, a man whose life story embodies what combat and crisis-tested character truly means. Israel “DT” Del Toro, welcome to the podcast. It's an honor to be with you here at the National Character and Leadership Symposium.
Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel Del Toro 14:18Thank you, Ted. Thanks for having me. Good to see you again.
 
Ted Robertson 14:21Yes, it's not the first time we've gotten to spend some time together. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 14:24It's always great to talk to people, try and spread the word of the whole spark and the promise of my dad.Ted Robertson 14:30The spark and the promises are the two things that really stood out to me about that interview — your heart and your soul man, from a very, very early age.
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 14:39 You know, losing my dad at 12, and then a year and a half later, losing my mom to a drunk driver, and being the oldest, you know, having to now kind of step up to be, like, the parent figure to my younger siblings. It was challenging.
 
Ted Robertson 14:55Out of all of that, you wound up as a retired — you are currently a retired senior master sergeant. You took responsibility for your siblings, as you say, after you were orphaned as a teenager, and ultimately in the service combat-wounded airmen, and you survived catastrophic injuries against incredible odds, and that did not keep you down. One of the things that you did was you became an Invictus Games gold medalist. You're now a national speaker, and you talk a lot about resilience and purpose.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 15:27Yes, sir. Yeah, Invictus, I won gold in shot put. It was pretty awesome. You know, everyone was just going nuts. Ted Robertson 15:37You kind of make me feel like that was a soul-feeding, motivating time for you.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 15:42It was. At that time, I was probably one of the senior guys, kind of. Obviously, I was one of the senior guys, wounded guys on the team, and so a lot of people looked up to me. And sometimes I wish — people would say, “Man, it's great. You're such trailblazer.” You're sometimes like, “Man, I just want to be one of the guys. I just, I just want to be No. 10.” You know, everything's all done, and no one's focusing everything on me. But it's a burden that I'm willing to carry on to try and continue to help people.
 
Ted Robertson 16:19I want to linger here in your background a bit, because it's more than just impressive. I think impressive is pretty trite to describe what your background is. Let's start with before the Air Force and before combat, and just how your life demanded responsibility at such a young age. And what I want to ask is, how did stepping up for your family shape the leader that you became?Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 16:40Well, I contribute that totally to my dad. I truly do. My dad was there. My dad, you know, I went everywhere with my dad. My dad — you know, he came from Mexico to this country, and he gave up a lot. You know, my family in Mexico is very wealthy, their ranchers and all that. He came here with nothing. And he always used to tell me, he's like, “Don't ever be envious of someone that's successful. Learn from them. Ask them questions.” He also used to tell me, “If you don't succeed, it's no one else's fault by yourself. Don't blame where you came from, where you grew up from, the situation. It is only your fault.” So my dad always had told me these little lessons and obviously the last lesson he gave me the night before he passed: Always take care of your family. And that just stayed with me, that kind of continued to shape me all throughout my life, all through my journey, at a young age to teenager to young adult to the military and to now, to this day, that really guided me to who I am. Now, it's like, I always hear people say, “Oh, man, I don't know if I can do it.” I was like, “Yeah, you can. You Just never know. You weren't ever put in that situation” I always believe — you always hear the fight or flight. “What are you gonna do?” I just fight, and I continue to fight. I just don't see the flight in me. And, you know, being the promise of take care of your family. Yes, I tell people, that originated with my family — my brothers and sisters. But throughout time it has evolved to now anyone I see that’s having a hard time that needs maybe to hear a story or read a book or hear a journey to help them find that spark, because I see them now as my family. I see that as my family, as my mission now.
 
Ted Robertson 18:50Let's stay with spark for a minute. It's just one of my favorite things that you've ever talked about. You're down, you've been badly burned, you're worried about whether you're going to survive, and a medic is helping you out, and he does something for you. He says something to you.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 19:07Yeah, you know, the medic — I always like to say, you know, yes, I'm Air Force. Those guys were Army, and we bust each other's chops. But, we're all brothers and sisters, and we're down range, you know? We take care of each other, we tell stories, we talk about our family. So these guys knew what had happened in my past with my family. So when I'm, you know, laying there, after I coordinate getting air, and I started the adrenaline going down, I started getting scared. I was having a hard time breathing, and I just wanted to lay down and sleep. The medic came and reminded me, “DT, remember what you promised your son, that you'll never let him grow without his dad. Fight for your son. You got to fight for your son.” And he's just making me yell it. You use anything you can to keep your guy motivated, to help that spark go, keep going. And that's what he did. He found that spark to keep me going, to keep me fighting until that medevac came and to get me on that helicopter, to the FOB, to the hospital, and then to eventually San Antonio.Ted Robertson 20:24After that injury, that's when the fight shifted. You had to get off the battlefield. You had to get that out of your head. You had to start battling for your recovery. So what did courage look like when progress seemed like it was slow and at one point nothing was guaranteed?Israel Del Toro 20:46Yeah, it, you know, when he had a shift from now being on the battlefield to now a different kind of battle and your recovery, your way of life — it's difficult because you have people telling you this is what your life's going to be. You know, being told that you're never going to walk again. You got to be in a hospital for another year and a half, respirator for the rest of your life and your military career is pretty much over. You know, I like to say there's two choices again: Who you're going to be? Are you going to take the easy path, which is, I'm going to sit in a chair, accept what they say, hate life, you know, curse the world. Are you going to take the hard path where I want to fight? I'm going to show you I can do this. I'm going to prove that I still have value, and I want to come out of this ahead and show not only my son but the rest of the world. You stay positive, you find that spark, you will come out ahead.Ted Robertson 21:48All right, last question on your background, because we're going to roll all this into why you're here and what messages you want to share with the cadets and the attendees that are here. You did something I don't think most human beings would even think about after that ordeal that you had been through all those years, everything. You reenlisted, and it wasn't just a medical milestone. It wasn't because you could, it was a conscious decision. So what internal commitment had to come first for you to make that decision.Israel Del Toro 22:22You know, I guess it was, for me it was I loved my job. I knew I could teach, I could be prepare these next guys to [be] the next generation operators.Ted Robertson 22:38You’ve never stopped being committed. You've never stopped. So it brings you to NCLS. This is the 33rd year for NCLS, and when you speak to cadets here, what message do you want them to take away with them?Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 22:53I guess my message more is about that when you're in the military, no matter whatever happens to you, you still have a role to play. Even when I got hurt, did I miss being with my teammates? Yes, but now refocusing, OK, I'm here in this hospital, and I see all these wounded guys here as I guess I'm wounded also, but in my head is like I was still NCO in the Air Force. I still have a job to do. Yes, I'm hurt, I'm wounded, but the job of a leader is, no matter where you're at, is you try and take care of your troops. You try and make things better for them, even if you never see any of the benefits — that is your role. And so that's kind of what I want to leave with these guys that, you know, you're going to always have  challenges throughout your career, but you’ve always got to remember it's not about you, it's about the guys under you to take care of you. You know, I had a group of cadets yesterday and they were just asking me about leadership. So you know what? The best way to be a great leader is to earn the respect of yourtroops. If you demand it, you're not a leader, but when you earned the respect and they'll die for you, that is the greatest feeling. You know, I gave an example of one of the best moments I had after my injury, is after I got hurt, they sent my replacement, and he comes in and obviously introduce him to the scout team, to the Army company, individuals in leadership, and then the SF team, and all these guys I'm supporting. And the guy comes in like, “Hey, I'm here to replace DT.” And all of them, “You can't replace DT.” And I told that was the best moment that that's the best moment of respect, because I had Army guys saying, “He's our guy.” And that's the thing I told them, it's like, when you get to that moment when your guys say, “Nah, he's our guy,” I was like, “He can't replace him.” That is where you've truly earned the respect of your troops.
 
Ted Robertson 25:21Israel, the only word that I can pull out of myself right now for your journey to describe it as “remarkable,” and you continue to give of yourself, and that's a wonderful thing. Your opportunity for a couple of final thoughts here, before we close out.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 25:38Final thoughts, man, putting me on the spot, aren’t you. I guess my final thoughts would be, you can't do it on your own. I'm not here right now, because I did it my own. I did it. I'm never gonna say that I did. I had friends, I had family, I had my wife that were by my side all throughout my journey to medical individuals. And I had those dark times, and I'm going down that spot, that rabbit hole, they were there to pull me out of it. So I think it's like, you know, don't try and do it on your own. We all need help. You know, the goal is, don't be prideful. There's a reason pride is one of the seven deadly sins. But, you know, ask for help, ask for advice. It's not going to hurt you. If anything, it will make you stronger and better. That's parting thoughts for the individuals listening to this. Ted Robertson 26:53Perfect. Israel “DT” Del Toro, what a privilege to sit with you again. Want to say thank you from all of us for your service and continuing to lead by the example, which is a very rich and broad and deep example. Your story reminds us, and should remind us, that courage doesn't end with just survival. It always continues in service to others. Israel, thank you for being here.
 
Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 27:18Thanks, Ted. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me again.
 
Ted Robertson 27:21Israel's story reminds us that crisis and moral injury don't always arrive on a schedule, and that leaders are often expected to navigate those moments without ever having been taught how. That's where our next conversation takes us: into the intentional work of preparing leaders before crisis arrives. Maj. Tara Holmes, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you with us as part of the National Character and Leadership Symposium.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  27:46Thanks for having me; glad to be here.
 
Ted Robertson 27:48
You are currently deputy chief of staff here at Headquarters USAFA. You are formerly chief of cadet development for CCLD, the Center for Character and Leadership development. By way of background, you flew.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  28:01
So I am a B-52 electronic warfare officer by trade, and then moved over into white jets. So instructed in the in the T-1 and I've kind of been in education and training for, I'd say, since about 2017.
 
Ted Robertson  28:19
You also hold a Doctorate in Business and Management, and you are an AETC master instructor. I will let you explain AETC.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  28:27
Air Education Training Command, that's one of the that's our majcom that's responsible for education and training, and they have a pathway to become a master instructor. So I finished the qualifications for that while I was in white jets and working over at Squadron Officer School.
 
Ted Robertson  28:46
So let's talk about your work with Task Force Hope. We'll talk about what Task Force Hope is, but you are and have been a developer and facilitator of Task Force Hope, which is a crisis and moral injury leadership workshop.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  29:01
Task Force Hope is about providing immediately useful tools to our workshop participants to prepare them to lead through crisis, whether that is no-kidding combat related, or whether that's crisis on the home front, going through stuff in life that's really hard. We work through a series of key concepts and exercises, through storytelling and participant engagement that hopefully provides our participants some self-awareness and some tools to recover as it deals with their relationships.
 
Ted Robertson  29:39
We talked about this. There's a lot of nuance in what you're teaching these people. There's discernment in it. Who should you talk to, who you should trust with information that you want to share? Because ultimately, some of this becomes a pressure release valve, right?
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  29:52
Yeah, so one of the key concepts that we talk about is worthiness, right? I think often people feel pressure to not share what they're going through because they don't think their problems are worthy of attention, whether theirs or someone else's. That's one thing that we spend a lot of time on. And like you said, you know, who to who to share with, and at what level, some people are more free with sharing than others, and that's OK. So we work through some frameworks that help illustrate how people can kind of work through those levels, or gain some self-awareness and some clarity around where they fall. Something that is a, you know, deep seated secret for you, maybe something that somebody else is willing to openly share, they just don't see it as that big of a deal. So it's definitely about self-awareness and learning some tools to help relieve some of the pressure and drain on our batteries, as it were, that comes from holding these things in.
 
Ted Robertson  30:52
People who are attending the workshop are going to learn some things that they may not realize are draining their batteries. You're teaching them to discern what those are, and to be careful to try to avoid those. It sounds like an example to me of things that we don't realize we do, that drains us, right, instead of energizes us.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  31:10
So we use the kind of metaphor of a smartphone, right? So there are things that drain us, that are big, that we're taking a lot of energy to conceal the hard things that we're dealing with in our life. But then there's, like, the pesky background apps, there's the things that are always running in the background of our lives that drain our energy without us really even noticing it. You know, so for me as an officer, but also as a mom and a spouse, some of the things that are always draining my batteries are my to-do list, the laundry app, maybe social media apps. Sometimes I've probably spend way too much time reading the news these days. That's kind of always on for me. We have these big things that are draining our batteries, but then we have these like small things that are constantly going on, right? So Task Force Hope is about recognizing what those things are for us and then making a commitment to ourselves to make this space and time to recover.
 
Ted Robertson  32:09
So that brings us to a really unique place. You kind of function at the intersection of character, leadership and development pretty much every day. So how do you define character when you're responsible for shaping it across an entire Cadet Wing.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  32:24
To me, character is the essence of who they are. It is how you show up day after day. It's the habits that you have. That's why, when you do something out of character, people are able to say that. You know, we talk about building character strengths as building blocks towards certain virtues. And virtues is really excellence of character. So it's easy to talk about how to be an excellent athlete, or how to be an excellent academic, right? And that's one of our core values, is being excellent. Well, how do you have excellent character? It's really about leveraging your character strengths in a way that can lead you to be more virtuous, and that's the goal.
 
Ted Robertson  33:05
You've served, both operationally and as an instructor. Tell me how those things shape the way you think about preparing leaders not just to perform but to endure.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  33:19
What comes to mind is the importance of training and building those habits. We're, you know, in the previous question, we talked about it in terms of character. You know, you can, you can use any kind of training. It's about building readiness, right? And being able to build those habits so that when you are faced with a challenge, you have a way to work through the challenge, right? That really came out for me, both operationally and as an instructor. So operationally, you rely on your training to get your job done, and then as an instructor, you're helping others build those habits so that one day when your students are faced with challenges, they can rely on their training as well.
 
Ted Robertson  34:01
We've talked a bit about your experiences and how they shape the way you think about preparing leaders, not just to perform but to endure. And now let's bring it right down to the direct connection between Task Force Hope and why you are here talking about this program to attendees at NCLS. When we talk about Task Force Hope, it's a program that is really designed to prepare leaders to navigate crisis and recover from both emotional and moral injury. What can you tell me about a gap that a workshop like this fills, that traditional leadership education sometimes or often misses?
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  34:38
Task Force Hope is preventative in nature. It's training to prevent people from letting their burdens get the best of them so that they can show up. They have the tools to show up fully charged when stuff hits the van. And not only that they do that for themselves, but then they can help their teammates or their subordinates also get there. It's self-awareness, because we all perform self-care differently, and what you need to recharge your batteries is different from the way that I would do it. So it's being intentional and having some tools to be able to identify what works for you and then how to make space in your life, and building that commitment to yourself, to make that space so that the next time that you face a crisis, you're not facing it at 10%, you're full up, you're ready to go. So it's that sustained self-care, if that's what you want to call it. And it's important to say that you know, in a 75-minute session, we're really doing our best to provide exposure to key concepts and these tools. What we hope is that people walk out with the start of something. It's not it's not the end of their work to be done.
 
Ted Robertson  35:54
How often do you hear the question, “Why didn't I hear this earlier in my career?”
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  36:00
Every workshop. Last year, after the workshop, we had a 1970-something graduate say that exact thing. For me personally, I had four people say something, you know, “Hey, I was a cadet here in ’90-something, ’80-something, 2000-something. And, you know, I really wish that I would have had this earlier.” So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to bring it as early as we can.
 
Ted Robertson  36:26
OK, so our last question of our visit, if cadets take just one lesson from Task Force Hope and NCLs this year, what is your hope for that lesson to be?
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  36:39
My hope is that they're worth it. No problem is too big or too small to be dealt with, and like we talked about earlier, I think often people keep things to themselves because they feel like they shouldn't bother others, or there's their supervisors or their teammates with what's going on in their lives. And that's a drain. Like, that's a drain on the system. It eats up your energy, right? But our cadets are worth it. Whatever they're dealing with, big or small, is worthy of being addressed. I hope that's the takeaway, and that we all deal with things, right? We don't always know what other people are dealing with.
 
Ted Robertson  37:22
Maj. Holmes. Thank you for the work you're doing to prepare future leaders, not just to lead in moments of clarity, but to stand firm in moments of crisis. We appreciate you being here.
 
Maj. Tara Holmes  37:32Thanks, Ted.
 
Ted Robertson  37:33
That focus on preservation, resilience and moral courage brings us to our next conversation, one shaped by combat, captivity and a life of service under the most demanding conditions. Coming up next, my conversation with Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier. Gen. Mechenbier, welcome to the podcast. It is a huge honor having you here, sir.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 37:56
I hope you feel that way in a half hour so well,
 
Ted Robertson  37:59Well, the conversation does promise to be interesting, because your life is… interesting. That was a pregnant pause, sir.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:07
Yeah, I've enjoyed it. It's different.
 
Ted Robertson  38:11
Just to sort of frame things, you retired as a major general, and what year was that, sir,
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:15
2004
 
Ted Robertson  38:16
And you were USAFA Class of ’64. You're a Vietnam-era pilot, having flown F-4s, you were shot down on your 113th combat mission, but that was you also your 80th over North Vietnam. OK, prisoner of war. Then for almost those entire six years following that, being shot down. You come with 3,600 flying hours across lots of different aircraft.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  38:42
I was privileged fly either for primary capability or for familiarization with 43 different airplanes.
 
Ted Robertson  38:49
And now you describe yourself as a lifelong advocate for veterans and public service.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  38:56
Well, yeah, I mean, I go to a couple prisons in Ohio, and “work with” is probably overstating my role. Veterans who are incarcerated for long periods of time. But my role is just to go there, spend some time, shoot the breeze with them, no agenda, no desired learning objective and let them know that somebody outside knows that they're there.
 
Ted Robertson  39:19
What I want to do is spend some time in your background. All right, I want to start with combat and captivity and how that tests leadership in its most extreme forms. And this is in course in keeping with the theme of NCLS here, what did character mean to you when circumstances were entirely beyond your control?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  39:38
The Vietnamese kept us in small groups of one and two or three guys. I mean, we never really until near the end and later on when we got a little organization. But it got very down, very personal, when at one time, I was in a cell with four guys, three Class of 1964 Air Force Academy graduates and one poor Oklahoma State University graduate, and amongst the four of us, we had a senior ranking officer. And of course, you got the same rank, you go alphabetical. And so we made Ron Bliss the senior ranking officer in our room. We had a communication system. We had guidelines that, you know, which were basically consistent with the code of conduct. You know, name, rank, serial number, date of birth, don't answer further questions. Keep faith with your fellow positions. That was the key. Keep faith. Never do anything that you'd be embarrassed to tell somebody you did.
 
Ted Robertson  40:34
What you're explaining is how different leadership looks, and even how you describe it, how different it is from command. So now it comes down to trust and accountability and courage, and how do those show up in those conditions?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  40:51
It was really a matter of, we always knew we were still in the fight. That was one thing that was with us, and so you just kind of conducted yourself with, OK, I'm not going to let myself be used. Now, we also knew that the more you resisted pushed back, the less likely they were to make you go meet an antiwar delegation or write a confession or do something else like that. So they tend to pick on, if you will, the low-hanging fruit or the easier guy to get to. So we always wanted to set the bar just a little bit out of their reach.
 
Ted Robertson  41:25
All right, having gone through all of that, it really can change people quite profoundly. So when you look back at it, what leadership lessons stayed with you long after you got out of captivity?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  41:39
In the movie Return of Honor. Capt. Mike McGrath, Navy guy, describes the guys in their ability to resist torture and do things. And that's what you learn. Everybody's got a breaking point. If mine's here and somebody else's is there, that doesn't make me better or worse than them. So you learn to appreciate the talents and the weaknesses. If you know the foibles, the cracks in everybody around you and not to exploit them, but to understand them, and then to be the kind of leader that that they need.
 
Ted Robertson  42:12
Sir, one of the recurring themes when you're discussing leadership with leaders right is knowing something about each of your people so that you can relate to them in a way that that works for them and motivates them.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  42:23
Yeah. Mark Welch, who's also a graduate and he is a chief of staff of the Air Force, always had a saying: “If you don't know what's going on, it's because you didn't ask.”
 
Ted Robertson  42:32
Now we're going to roll all that into your long journey between captivity and your visit here to NCLS this year. When you're speaking to the cadets at this year's event, what's your main hope? What do you hope they understand about courage before they even ever face combat?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  42:54
Well, courage is a reaction to a clear and present threat. Nobody knows how they're gonna — know he's gonna say, OK, I'm gonna go to Vietnam and I want to get shot down, and when the Vietnamese capture me, I'm going to give them a middle finger and I'm going to be the meanest bad ass and hardest-to-break prisoner. Yeah, it's how you respond to the to the immediate perception of bodily harm or being used or something else like that. So courage is, yeah, it just happens. It's not something that you can put in a package and say, “OK, I've got courage.” It's how you respond to the situation, because you might respond quite differently than what you think.
 
Ted Robertson  43:35
And I have to say, you presented your story and you delivered your message in kind of a unique way. You drew from some contemporary references, specifically three clips from a movie that you like, that I was curious. How did you sum up your entire life in three movie clips from Madagascar? How did you do that?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  43:57
Well, the three movie clips — when I watched the movie, I was looking at it, I have got two favorite movies. Madagascar is one, and the other is a Kelsey Grammer movie, Down Periscope. I mean, I think that is a perfect study in in leadership. But in the movie Madagascar, the premise was penguins can't fly, but yet it opens up with them applying resource, innovation imagination, and they eventually get this airplane to fly. OK, great. Success. Well, like everything else in life, things go wrong, and you got to have, No. 1, a backup plan, an exit ramp or a control mechanism for the disaster that's pending. So that's the second movie clip we saw. And then the third one was towards the end of the movie, when the crash landing has happened and the skipper asks for an accounting, and he's told that all passengers are accounted for, except two. And he says, that's the number I can live with. And the message there is, you go through life — you're going to have successes, but you're going to have failures, and failure has a cost, and it's not always pleasant, but that's OK, because that's life.
 
Ted Robertson  45:15
How do you explain how leaders can prepare themselves morally and mentally for moments they can't predict or control.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  45:25
Watch movies like Madagascar and Down Periscope. You know, there's a breadth of unintentional, if you will, guidance on how to be a leader, if you know where to look or if you're looking for it. I mean, that's part of the whole progress program at the Academy. Nobody's going to say, OK, here's a scenario, lead these resources to a proper conclusion. It's kind of like, OK, here's the situation. What do we do? What can we do? What can't we do? It's like, in my presentation, I talk about being able to run across a pasture in nine seconds, in 10 seconds, but if the bull can do it, you're in trouble. So you got to realign your thinking, you got to realign your goals and you got to realign the application of resources. So that's the leadership part, right there. It's a realization of what you can and what you can't do. It's a realization of what you, your people, your resources, can and can't do. It's a realization of what the technology you have at your disposal to do your mission can and can't do. So it's all about workarounds and being flexible. And then the other thing is, we live in a world that just seems to be everything's got a prescription and a protocol on exactly how to do everything. Doesn't work that way. You got to be able to go left and right. You got to be able to be a little imaginative.
 
Ted Robertson  46:42
What parting thought did you leave the cadets with?
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  46:45
That failure is part of life. It's not death. And I'm part of an organization called American 300 — we go around and talk to young enlisted people and all the services to get them to understand that failure is a learning opportunity. It's not a dagger in the heart, and don't be afraid or ashamed to try, because if you don't, you'll never know what your true potential is. So with the cadets, we close with that last part from the movie Madagascar that basically said, OK, success comes with a price. Be aware and accept it.
 
Ted Robertson  47:23
All right, we've got to close it out here, but recap, if you would one more time that message that you want cadets to leave here with from having heard you speak.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  47:32
You are now a living, breathing, viable, productive part of our United States Air Force. You bring talents that are unique. Apply them, but understand that they're all very transitory, and you have part of a larger community. If you stick with a community rather than the “I did,” “I want,” I have,” you'll go a long way.
 
Ted Robertson  47:54
All right, and stepping outside of that very briefly for your final thoughts, what would you like to leave listeners with today.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  48:01
Be proud of the young men and women who are in our military now, not just those at the Air Force Academy. You know, our whole military structure has changed over the years. You know, it's a dynamic world. You got to be flexible and embrace change. We're so reluctant to change. Change is fine, except when you try to change me, is the old saying, but we all have to change. We have to be part of the world in which we live.
 
 
Ted Robertson  48:26
Gen. Mechenbier, I want to thank you from all of us for being here sharing those leadership lessons of yours and a lifetime of service that will continue to shape others — future leaders — for a very, very long time to come. We appreciate you very much.
 
Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  48:43
Thank you much.
 
Ted Robertson  48:44
Our final conversation brings us to leadership at the strategic level, where decisions affect institutions, alliances and the nation itself. Capt. Charles Plumb, welcome to the podcast today, sir.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  48:56
Thanks, Ted. Appreciate being here.
 
Ted Robertson  48:59
It is a privilege to have you. You retired as a Navy captain in 1991 and you have not slowed down, not one inch since. We're going to talk a little bit about the work that you're doing in some very interesting spaces. And what informs all of that. Naval Academy, Class of ’64.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:15
Yep, the Great Class of ’64.
 
 
Ted Robertson  49:17
The great —that's how you express class pride?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:20
Everybody knows the Great Class of ’64.
 
Ted Robertson  49:23
So you are an Annapolis man.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:25
I am, in fact.
 
Ted Robertson  49:26
No doubt. And a pilot. You flew F-4 Phantoms, and you are a Vietnam-era pilot. You spent most of your time over North Vietnam. Sometimes you got sent to South Vietnam, depending on what was going on. But you said that you have flown 74 combat missions.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:45
Actually 74 and a half, Ted. I have one more takeoff and I have landings.
 
Ted Robertson  49:50
We should remember that, because it's a very important part of your life we haven't talked about yet. Since you got out of captivity, and then you retired a few years later, you became a published author and a speaker, and as such, you have been to every state, several countries, 5,000 presentations you've delivered in the leadership and character development space. Is there any reason you should not be here at NCLS?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:24
Well, I appreciate that. You know, this is a great symposium, and I'm really proud to contribute to it.
 
Ted Robertson  50:32
Captain, you are a former POW.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:36
Yes, I was shot down on my 75th mission and captured, tortured and spent the next 2,103 days in communist prison camps.
 
Ted Robertson  50:49
You said you got moved around a lot.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:52We did. I was in six different camps, and some of those camps more than once. We never really understood why. We kind of suspected that they wanted to try to deny any fraternization with their guards, and they wanted to keep us on our toes, because they recognized that being military guys, we were going to have leadership, and we were going to have organization and community and we were going to organize, to fight them, and they didn't want that. So they moved us around and kind of shuffled us up, which didn't work. We always had a military organization in every camp that I ever went to.
 
Ted Robertson  51:31
You found ways to support each other. You found ways to have a leadership structure, even in captivity.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  51:39
We were all fighter pilots or air crews and most of us were we, you know, we had 10 Air Force Academy grads from ’64 in five Naval Academy grads from ’64 and so we had in a lot of other academy grads. I don't remember how many, but probably 70 total academy grads. And so, you know, we were, we were dedicated. We were lifers. We were, you know, we were very focused guys, which helped out a lot that we knew a lot about military leadership.
 
Ted Robertson  52:11
You grew up in the Midwest, and you married a Midwestern girl.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  52:15
I did, my high school sweetheart the day after I graduated from Annapolis, we got married in the chapel, and my buddies were holding up their swords as we came out of the chapel. So it was a beautiful day.
 
Ted Robertson  52:27
Let's go back to how you found your way to the Naval Academy.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  52:32
I was a farm kid from Kansas. Never seen the ocean, never been out of the four states of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri. Never been in an airplane, and I needed an education. Found that the Naval Academy offered me an education.
 
Ted Robertson  52:50
Outside of Air Force Academy circles, you probably already know that we think of, you know, salty sea dog sailors when we think of people going in the Navy, but you chose aviation.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  53:02
I did. As a kid, I would see these Piper Cubs fly over and I was fascinated by flight, and wondered if I'd ever be able to ride in an airplane. That was my thought when I was a kid. I didn't have any hopes of ever being a pilot, you know, let alone a fighter pilot. That was, I was out of the realm. Nobody, as I grew up, ever told me that I could do that, or I should do that, or, you know, it would be a hope of mine to ever pilot an airplane. But I went to the Naval Academy and found out that was one of the options, and I took advantage of that option.
 
Ted Robertson  53:43
Yeah, and it led you, of course, to over North Vietnam, and the rest is that part of your history
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  53:51
Launched on the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk on my wife's birthday, the 5th of November, wave goodbye to her, and promised her I'd be back in eight months. I didn't make it.
 
Ted Robertson  54:04
Hard. Very hard story to hear. Let's talk about all of that informing your presentation now, again, 5,000 of these delivered in the leadership and character development space, but you talk a lot about, in your presentation — and you keynoted here at NCLS — the mental game side of this, the integrity, the choices that you have to make, and character that sort of frames all of that.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  54:38
My message to the cadets, and really to most of my audiences, is around challenge and adversity. And I tell the cadets that they work awfully hard trying to get a degree. They study, they go to computers, they read books all to get a degree. And what I point out to them is that more important than the degree that they will get from the Air Force Academy is a character that they build while they are here. That the integrity first, you know, is part of their motto. And if, in fact, they can learn and live that integrity, if they can learn and live the commitment that they have, if they can learn in and live these kind of ethereal things, the things that you can't measure, things you can't define, the things that, you know, that crop up in your in your mind, in the back of your mind, are more important than the lessons they learn from a computer. And so that's kind of my message.
 
Ted Robertson  55:49
You know, we're in a leadership laboratory here. The art and the science is character development. And you're talking about a kind of character that leads people to make good decisions and make those decisions with integrity in mind. How did that play into your captivity and getting you through that?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  56:09
You know, of course, I studied leadership at the Naval Academy, and I think that my period of experience more than teaching me anything, it validated what I had learned. And the whole idea — and I love the fact that this is called, you know, the Character and Leadership Symposium, because lots of times you see leadership without character, that's a negative kind of leadership. And if a leader does not have character, he doesn't last very long, and he's not very effective. And so if you can keep your character up front, the leadership can follow easily. And that's pretty much what we had in the prison camps. Several of the qualities of leadership that I promote are the things that almost came natural in a prison camp. First of all, we had to find a focus, a reason. We had to find, you know — and that was developed by our leadership in the prison camp. Return with honor — that was our motto, return with honor. And we all rallied around that.
 
Ted Robertson  57:22
So all of that said, you're standing here in front of a really big group of people as a keynote speaker, lot of cadets, mostly cadets, yeah.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  57:31
Now there were cadets. I'm speaking on a panel with Ed Mechenbier, my good buddy, and we're on a panel with mostly cadets. The first presentation, the keynote was by invitation only. So there were a number of civilians in the audience, number of cadets. There were Naval Academy midshipmen in my audience today. And we had ROTC people, and, you know, from all over the country. So it was quite a wide audience.
 
Ted Robertson  58:04
Quite a wide audience. And so if we were just focusing on what you leave with cadets, what do you want them to take away from their experience today?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  58:15
I hope they understand my message, that more important than the degree that they graduate with, is the character that they graduate with, and the importance of the integrity that that they learned here, because that was vital in the prison camp, is integrity. We had to have each other's back, and when we when we finally were released, we refused to be released until all the sick, injured and enlisted men had gone home, and it was a question of integrity, is a question that this is the right thing to do. It's not the easy thing to do. Largely, the integrity thing to do is not the easiest thing to do, and that's what I wanted to leave with the cadets. In addition, I want them to know that regardless of what situation they're in, they still have a choice, and their choice is the way they respond to the surrounding adversity situation that they're in.
 
Ted Robertson  59:21
An Annapolis grad of ’64, Midwest kid from Kansas who makes it into the cockpit, and like you said, 74 and a half flights, then some time in captivity, then to a published author with thousands of presentations all over the country, and some in in other countries. What final thoughts would you like to leave today, sir?
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  59:47
Well, you know, I think I've already told you, you know, you're a great interviewer, Ted, and I appreciate your questions. I think, finally, this whole idea of self-determination and I think that we all, and not just the cadets, but graduates and families and business people, families. You know that we all have choices, and sometimes when we deny the choice and give up that ability to make our life better for ourselves. And you know, we do it sometimes even when we’re not even thinking about it. It's just automatic to blame somebody else for the problem, and in doing so, we give away that choice.
 
Ted Robertson  1:00:34
Don't give away the choice. Yeah, build that character and stick by your integrity all the time. Capt. J. Charles Plumb, what a privilege it is to meet you, sir. Glad that you're here at NCLs and keynoting like you are, and I do hope that our paths cross again.
 
Capt. J. Charles Plumb  1:00:52
Ted, thank you very much. I appreciate your willingness to tell my story. Thanks for that.
 
Ted Robertson  1:00:57
You're welcome, sir. Thank you. Ted Robertson CloseAs we've heard throughout these conversations, courage isn't a single moment. It's a lifelong practice, from cadets just beginning their journey to leaders shaped by combat and crisis to senior commanders responsible for forces and futures. Character is tested when certainty disappears and it's revealed by how we choose to lead. That's the challenge of the National Character and Leadership Symposium, and it's a challenge that extends far beyond these walls. I'm Ted Robertson, thank you for joining me for our Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of the 33rd National Character and Leadership Symposium.
This podcast was recorded on Saturday, Feb. 21, 2026.
 
 
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 

In our Season 4 retrospective, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 and Wyatt Hornsby, the Association & Foundation’s senior vice president of marketing and communications, revisit the clips that stuck with them.
 - “Mind. Body. Spirit.” - “What can I do for others?” - “Be humble. Be credible. Be approachable.”
These aren’t just soundbites. They’re leadership gold.
This episode will remind you why these conversations matter.
TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE
Lead from mind, body, and spirit
Sustainable leadership requires caring for mental clarity, physical stamina, and spiritual/emotional grounding.
Leadership is a daily practice, not a position
Being a leader shows up in consistent habits and choices, not just in moments when you have the spotlight or a title.
Mental health fuels clarity and creativity
Protecting your mindset and mental health enables focus, problem-solving, and innovation.
Physical readiness underpins reliability
Long hours and high-demand environments require physical energy and stamina so you can show up for others when it counts.
Spiritual/emotional health anchors your “why”
Knowing your purpose and values helps you make grounded decisions and stay steady in pressure or uncertainty.
Shift from “Why me?” to “What can I do for others?”
Transform challenges by asking how you can serve your team and community, rather than focusing on personal hardship.
Selfless leadership unlocks others’ potential
When you lead by example and create opportunities for others to excel, people gain confidence and stretch toward their own “superhero” potential.
Humility, credibility, and approachability are core leadership traits
Effective leaders are humble about their limits, credible in what they say and do, and approachable enough that others feel safe coming to them.
Trust and respect are earned, not assumed
Especially with large teams and many colleagues, you must earn trust and respect through consistent behavior, not rely on rank or title.
Leadership is ongoing presence and intention
Leadership “doesn’t start with a title”; it’s about showing up with intention and care, being present when it matters, and putting others first over the long term.
 
CHAPTERS0:00:07 Introduction & Episode Setup
0:00:54 Intro – Leadership as Daily Practice (Tanji Johnson Bridgeman)
0:01:19 Mind, Body, Spirit in Leadership
0:02:06 Reflection on Intentional, Holistic Leadership
0:02:39Intro – Selfless Leadership & Inspiring Others (Dave Harden)
0:02:59 Transforming Challenges & Leading Selflessly
0:03:26 Reflection on Timeless, Presence-Based Leadership
0:04:03 Intro – Humble, Credible, Approachable (Rep. August Pfluger)
0:04:30 Core Leadership Tenets in Public Service
0:05:37 Reflection on Trust, Respect, and Credibility
0:06:13 Season Four Recap & Invitation to Explore Past Episodes
0:06:57 New Biweekly, Year-Round Schedule Announcement
0:07:45 Closing – Core Leadership Themes & Thank-Yous
 
 
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz.
Wyatt Hornsby: 0:10And I'm Wyatt Hornsby, and today we're hitting pause for a moment and we're going to look back.Naviere Walkewicz 0:14Yes, this episode is our Season 4 retrospective. We're revisiting some of the leadership moments that really stayed with us long after the microphones were turned off.Wyatt Hornsby 0:25We went back through the season and selected three clips among many amazing ones, each from a guest who brought a different perspective on leadership, but all with a common thread: responsibility to people.Naviere Walkewicz 0:36Absolutely. We're going to play each clip, Wyatt and I will react to it and talk about why those still matter.Wyatt Hornsby 0:43And at the end of the show, we'll also look ahead. We've got upcoming guests to share and a couple of important changes and exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published going forward.Naviere Walkewicz 0:54Absolutely. So let's get started. All right. Our first clip comes from Tanji Johnson Bridgeman, Class of ’97. Her episode stood out because of how she directly spoke about leadership being a daily practice. Now as you listen, pay close attention to how she talks about the health of your mind, body and spirit, and how those together form the foundation of great leaders.Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 1:19Mind, body, spirit. Why is that important? Because in anything, any philosophies that we adopt, we have to really see where it's important. So when you think of what is an officer — what is a leader going to have to do with their mind? This is where they have to have clarity. It's going to help with focus, creativity, to innovate new solutions. And so we need to be able to prioritize our mindset and our mental health. And then there's the body, right? So a lot of us are going to be going on deployments. We're going to work long hours. Our body is what's going to give us the fuel and energy and the stamina to get through a day. It's literally bringing our energy. And then you think about the spirit, and this one is really special, and it's probably the most neglected. So when you think about the spirit, this is where you're going to anchor in with your emotional health. What is your purpose? What is your why?Wyatt Hornsby 2:06That is such a great insight. And what really resonates with me, Naviere, is Tanji’s emphasis on health and wellness is a critical component of leading others — that integration.Naviere Walkewicz 2:16Yes, well, you know, we both really take our health and wellness seriously, but I think to the level that she really talked about it being — she really had this quiet confidence, and I think that also spoke volumes, right? It's not just about being physical, but being in your mind, body and spirit really well. And so I think that when we think about how that plays into being really intentional, people will experience you differently.Wyatt Hornsby 2:39All right. Our second clip comes from Dave Harden, Class of ’95. Dave brought perspective shaped by high-stakes environments where leadership is about inspiring others. Listen for how he connects looking outside of yourself, for your team with leading them to their own greatness.
Dave Harden 2:55If we can transform, if we can pause, if we can look up right and see the faith and the what if and not say, say, Why is this happening to me? But what can I do with it? What can I do for others? How can I connect in a meaningful way? You will transform your life. You'll transform your leadership, and you'll transform the people around you, because they'll be inspired to be superheroes in their own right. Naviere Walkewicz 3:26Wow. That was a very powerful clip. And I just remember his conversation being really powerful, because there were so many moments where we talked about, you know, when you're really leaning into the fire. But this particular clip — what spoke to me, Wyatt — he was saying, if you lead selflessly and by example, looking for others to have opportunities to excel, they actually find the confidence in what they're able to give and do and striving for more. Thought that's really powerful, for sure.Wyatt Hornsby 3:51Agree Naviere, and that's really timeless leadership. Whether you're leading in uniform or outside of it, people trust leaders who are present when it counts. And Dave really personifies that.Naviere Walkewicz 4:03Yes, our third clip comes from Congressman August Pfluger, Class of 2000. When we spoke to the congressman, he brought a unique perspective, one shaped by military service and now public service. His leadership journey didn't end when he took off the uniform. It simply evolved. And this clip reflects that sense of responsibility to those one leads. To do that successfully means establishing credibility. Let's roll the clip.August Pfluger 4:30Growing up professionally in a fighter squadron, there were three tenants that they, even though I didn't go to weapons school, they teach you: that's to be humble, credible and approachable. I mean, think about that. Those are the core tenants of who our lead warriors are. And that is not what you see. When you think of politicians. You think, Well, they're braggadocios and annoying, and, you know, OK, I hope I don't fall into that category. I need to do some self-reflection every once while, but, but I've got a staff of almost 40 people, and I have 434 other colleagues that you have to work with. So you better believe that you've got to be humble, because there are people who are better than you in every category, you better believe that being approachable in this job is really important, because people are going to come to you and they're going to need something, or you're going to need something from them, and if you don't have the credibility of what you're talking about or what you're leading, then you're not going to get anything done.Wyatt Hornsby 5:37Great insights from the congressman. And that's really one of those leadership truths that carries across every domain for him now in Washington, DC, and the congressman is reminding us that leadership doesn't start with a title.Naviere Walkewicz 5:50I really appreciate that. I think specifically when he said he had over 400 colleagues, that really stood out to me about not leading with the title, but really leading with your virtue and being there. And so I love the fact that he talked about earning trust respect, and then with that comes credibility.Wyatt Hornsby 6:06And being approachable.Naviere Walkewicz 6:08Being approachable. Yes, we see him doing that all the time.Wyatt Hornsby 6:13All right, so let's look ahead. As we close out this retrospective, we also want to take a moment to look forward, but before we look forward, let me just say that these were three conversations among so many great ones from Season 4. Naviere Walkewicz 6:26It was hard to choose, wasn't it wise? Wyatt Hornsby 6:28It was so hard to choose. And we encourage you, if you have not listened to all of Season 4, check them out, because there's so many wonderful guests here. Thanks for the great job you did hosting those conversations.Naviere Walkewicz 6:40Always my pleasure. Always my pleasure. In fact, gosh, going back, I think, all the way to Season 1, there's always someone, a guest, that our graduates and other listeners, and gosh, our viewers can really resonate with. There's some wonderful leadership lesson down there.Wyatt Hornsby 6:53And easy to find. You can you can get our episodes anywhere you get your podcast.Naviere Walkewicz 6:57Yes, we have some outstanding guests coming up. These are leaders from across different fields, and we're excited to bring them into our Long Blue Leadership conversation.Wyatt Hornsby 7:06And we also want to share a couple of important and very exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published.Naviere Walkewicz 7:12Yes, we are moving away from seasons, and we're shifting to biweekly, year-round release schedule. This is so you get Long Blue Leadership all the time, year round. Right to you where you are.Wyatt Hornsby 7:23Very exciting, and that means more consistent leadership conversations. No long breaks, just ongoing dialog.Naviere Walkewicz 7:30Absolutely you just go to longblueleadership.org to find your Long Blue Leadership conversation. So going forward, we'll publish our annual retrospective, released each December, a dedicated moment where white and I come together to reflect on the leadership lessons we heard throughout the year.Wyatt Hornsby 7:45Very exciting, and Season Four reminded us that leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about showing up with intention and care, being humble, being approachable and putting others first.Naviere Walkewicz 7:57We're grateful to every guest who shared their perspective and to you for being part of this incredible community.Wyatt Hornsby 8:03And Naviere, while we're at it too, let's go ahead and thank Ted, our incredible producer of Long Blue Leadership.Naviere Walkewicz 8:09Thanks, Ted. We appreciate you so much. This doesn't happen without your magic. So thank you very much.Wyatt Hornsby 8:13Yeah, thank you, Ted and everybody. Thanks for listening. I'm Wyatt Hornsby.Naviere Walkewicz 8:18And I'm Naviere Walkewicz. We'll see you on Long Blue Leadership.
 
 
KEYWORDS
Mind, body, spirit, leadership, daily practice, mental health, physical health, spiritual health, wellness, emotional health, purpose, why, selfless leadership, service, inspiring others, transformation, high-stakes environments, team, connection, trust, respect, credibility, humility, humble, approachable, virtuous leadership, public service, military service, fighter squadron, colleagues, responsibility to people, presence, intention, care, confidence, long blue leadership, podcast, retrospective, season four, biweekly schedule, year-round release, annual retrospective, leadership lessons, graduates, listeners, community
 
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