Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership

Purpose, trust and laughter matter. 

SUMMARY

Dr. Heather Wilson ’82, former secretary of the U.S. Air Force, and Gen. Dave Goldfein ’83, former chief of staff of the Air Force, highlight the human side of leadership — honoring family, listening actively and using humility and humor to build strong teams. Their book, Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, challenges leaders to serve first and lead with character.

 

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TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE

1. Leadership Is a Gift and a Burden – Leaders are entrusted with the well-being and development of others, but that privilege entails tough, sometimes lonely, responsibilities.
2. Servant Leadership – True leadership is about enabling and supporting those you lead, not seeking personal advancement or recognition.
3. Influence and Teamwork – Lasting change comes from pairing authority with influence and working collaboratively; no leader succeeds alone.
4. Embrace Failure and Own Mistakes – Effective leaders accept institutional and personal failures and use them as learning and teaching moments.
5. Family Matters – Great leaders recognize the significance of family (their own and their team’s) and demonstrate respect and flexibility for personal commitments.
6. Be Data-Driven and Strategic – Borrow frameworks that suit the mission, be clear about goals, and regularly follow up to ensure progress.
7. Listening Is Active – Truly listening, then responding openly and honestly—even when you can’t “fix” everything—builds trust and respect.
8. Humility and Curiosity – Never stop learning or questioning; continual self-improvement is a hallmark of strong leaders.
9. Celebrate and Share Credit – Spread praise to those working behind the scenes; leadership is not about personal glory, but lifting others.
10. Resilience and Leading by Example – “Getting back up” after setbacks inspires teams; how a leader recovers can motivate others to do the same.

 

CHAPTERS

0:00:00 - Introduction and Welcome
0:00:21 - Guest Backgrounds and Family Legacies
0:02:57 - Inspiration for Writing the Book
0:05:00 - Defining Servant Leadership
0:07:46 - Role Models and Personal Examples

 

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99

Guests: Dr. Heather Wilson ’82, former Secretary of the U.S. Air Force, and former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. (Ret.) Dave Goldfein ’83 

Naviere Walkewicz 0:09
Welcome to Focus on Leadership, our accelerated leadership series. I'm your host, Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. I'm honored to welcome two exceptional leaders whose careers and friendship have helped shape the modern Air Force, while inspiring thousands to serve with purpose and courage. Our guests today are Dr. Heather Wilson, USAFA Class of ’82, the 24th secretary of the Air Force, now president at the University of Texas El Paso. And Gen. Dave Goldfein, Class of ’83, the 21st chief of staff of the Air Force. Both are United States Air Force Academy distinguished graduates. Together, they've written Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, a powerful reflection on resilience, humility and the courage to lead to adversity. And our conversation today will dive deeply into the lessons they learned at the highest levels of command and in public service, and what it means to serve others first. Thank you for being here.

Gen. Dave Goldfein 1:08
Thank you for having us.

Naviere Walkewicz 1:09
Absolutely. This is truly an honor. And I mentioned that I read this incredible book, and I'm so excited for us to jump into it, but before we do, I think it's really important for people to know you more than the secretary and the chief. I mean chief, so Gen. Goldfein, you came from an Air Force family. Your dad was a colonel, and ma'am, your grandpa was a civil aviator, but you really didn't have any other military ties.

Dr. Heather Wilson 1:29
Well, my grandfather was one of the first pilots in the RAF in World War I, then came to America, and in World War II, flew for his new country in the Civil Air Patrol. My dad enlisted by that a high school and was a crew chief between the end of the Second World War and the start of Korea, and then he went back home and became a commercial aviator and a mechanic.

Naviere Walkewicz 1:52
I love that. So your lines run deep. So maybe you can share more and let our listeners get to know you more personally. What would you like to share in this introduction of Gen. Goldfein and Dr. Wilson?

Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:02
Well, I'll just tell you that if you know much about Air Force culture you know we all get call signs, right. Nicknames, right? I got a new one the day I retired, and you get to use it. It's JD, which stands for “Just Dave.”

Naviere Walkewicz 2:17
Just Dave! Yes, sir. JD. I will do my best for that to roll off my tongue. Yes, sir.

Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:25
And I will just say congratulations to you for your two sons who are currently at the Academy. How cool is that?

Naviere Walkewicz 2:31
Thank you. We come from a Long Blue Line family. My dad was a grad, my uncle, my brother and sister, my two boys. So if I get my third son, he'll be class of 2037, so, we’ll see. We’ve got some time.

Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:41
We have grandchildren. Matter of fact, our book is dedicated to grandchildren and they don't know it yet, but at least on my side, they're Class of 2040 and 2043 at the Air Force Academy.

Naviere Walkewicz 2:52
OK, so my youngest will be cadre for them. Excellent. Excellent.

Dr. Heather Wilson 2:57
And my oldest granddaughter is 4, so I think we'll wait a little bit and see what she wants to do.

Naviere Walkewicz 3:04
Yes, ma'am. All right. Well, let's jump in. You just mentioned that you wrote the book primarily for your film book. Is that correct?

Gen. Dave Goldfein 3:09
Yes.

Naviere Walkewicz 3:10
How did you decide to do this now together? Because you both have incredible stories.

Dr. Heather Wilson 3:14
Well, two years ago, we were actually up in Montana with Barbara and Craig Barrett, who —  Barbara succeeded me as secretary of the Air Force. And our families, all six of us are quite close, and we were up there, and Dave was telling stories, and I said, “You know, you need to write some of these down.” And we talked about it a little bit, and he had tried to work with another co-author at one time and it just didn't work out really well. And I said, “Well, what if we do it together, and we focus it on young airmen, on lessons learned in leadership. And the other truth is, we were so tired of reading leadership books by Navy SEALs, you know, and so can we do something together? It turned out to be actually more work than I thought it would be for either of us, but it was also more fun.

 

Naviere Walkewicz 3:59
How long did it take you from start to finish?

Dr. Heather Wilson 4:02
Two years.

Naviere Walkewicz 4:03
Two years? Excellent. And are you — where it's landed? Are you just so proud? Is it what you envisioned when you started?

Gen. Dave Goldfein 4:10
You know, I am, but I will also say that it's just come out, so the initial response has been fantastic, but I'm really eager to see what the longer term response looks like, right? Did it resonate with our intended tenant audience? Right? Did the young captains that we had a chance to spend time with at SOS at Maxwell last week, right? They lined up forever to get a copy. But the real question is, did the stories resonate? Right? Do they actually give them some tools that they can use in their tool bag? Same thing with the cadets that we were privileged to spend time with the day. You know, they energized us. I mean, because we're looking at the we're looking at the future of the leadership of this country. And if, if these lessons in servant leadership can fill their tool bag a little bit, then we'll have hit the mark.

Naviere Walkewicz 5:07
Yes, sir, yes. Ma'am. Well, let's jump right in then. And you talked about servant leadership. How would you describe it? Each of you, in your own words,

Dr. Heather Wilson 5:15
To me, one of the things, important things about servant leadership is it's from the bottom. As a leader, your job is to enable the people who are doing the work. So in some ways, you know, people think that the pyramid goes like this, that it's the pyramid with the point at the top, and in servant leadership, it really is the other way around. And as a leader, one of the most important questions I ask my direct reports — I have for years — is: What do you need from me that you're not getting? And I can't print money in the basement, but what do you need from me that you're not getting? How, as a leader, can I better enable you to accomplish your piece of the mission. And I think a good servant leader is constantly thinking about, how do I — what can I do to make it easier for the people who are doing the job to get the mission done?

Gen. Dave Goldfein 6:08
And I'd offer that the journey to becoming an inspirational servant leader is the journey of a lifetime. I'm not sure that any of us actually ever arrive. I'm not the leader that I want to be, but I'm working on it. And I think if we ever get to a point where we feel like we got it all figured out right, that we know exactly what this whole leadership gig is, that may be a good time to think about retiring, because what that translates to is perhaps at that point, we're not listening, we're not learning, we're not growing, we're not curious — all the things that are so important. The first chapter in the book is titled, Am I worthy? And it's a mirror-check question that we both came to both individually and together as secretary and chief. It's a mere check that you look at and say, “All right, on this lifelong journey to become an inspirational servant leader, am I worthy of the trust and confidence of the parents who have shared their sons and daughters with the United States Air Force and expecting us to lead with character and courage and confidence? Am I worthy of the gift that followers give to leaders? Am I earning that gift and re-earning it every single day by how I act, how I treat others?” You know, that's the essence of servant leadership that we try to bring forward in the book.

Naviere Walkewicz 7:38
Right? Can you recall when you first saw someone exhibiting servant leadership in your life?

Dr. Heather Wilson 7:46
Good question. It's a question of role models. Maj. William S. Reeder was my first air officer commanding here. And while I think I can probably think of some leaders in my community, you know, people who were school principals or those kind of things, I think Maj. Reeder terrified me because they didn't want to disappoint him. And he had — he was an Army officer who had been shot down as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. He still had some lingering issues. Now, I think he had broken his leg or his back or something, and so you could tell that he still carried with him the impact of that, but he had very high expectations of us and we didn't want to disappoint him. And I think he was a pretty good role model.

Gen. Dave Goldfein 8:47
You know, one of the things we say at the very end of the book is that we both married up. We both married incredible leaders, servant leaders in their own right. So in my case, I married my high school sweetheart, and we've now been together almost 43 years, coming up on 43. And when you talk about servant leadership, you know, very often we don't give military spouses enough credit for the enormous courage that they have when they deal with the separations, the long hours, very often not talked about enough, the loneliness that comes with being married to someone who's in the military. And so I just give a shout out to every military spouse that's out there and family to thank them for that very special kind of courage that equates to servant leadership on their part.


Naviere Walkewicz 9:47
Excellent. Those are both really great examples, and I think, as our listeners are engaging with this, they're going to start to think about those people in their lives as well, through your descriptions. Early in the book, you make this statement: “Leadership is a gift and a burden.” Might you both expand on that?

 

Dr. Heather Wilson 10:03
So it's a gift in that it’s a gift that's given to you by those whom you are privileged to lead, and it's not just an institution that, you know, it's not just the regents of the University of Texas who have said, “Yes, you're going to be the president of the University of Texas at El Paso.” It is those who follow me who have given me gift of their loyalty and their service and their time. It's a burden, because some days are hard days, and you have to make hard calls based on values to advance the mission and, as chief and service secretary, there are no easy decisions that come walking into that part of the Pentagon. The easy decisions are all made before it gets to the service secretary and chief and so. So there is that responsibility of trying to do well difficult things. And I think sometimes those are lonely decisions.

Gen. Dave Goldfein 11:09
And I think as a leader of any organization, part of what can be the burden is if you care deeply about the institution, then you carry the burden of any failures of that institution, both individuals who fall short, or the institution itself. And we face some of those, and we talk about that in the book. One of our chapters is on Sutherland Springs and owning failure. There was no dodge in that. And there was, quite frankly, there was an opportunity for us to actually showcase and teach others how to take ownership when the institution falls short and fails, right? And you know, one of the interesting elements of the relationship between a secretary and a chief is that if you go back and look at the law and read the job description of the chief of staff of the Air Force, it basically says, “Run the air staff and do what the secretary tells you.” I'm not making that up. Because most of the decision authority of the institution resides in the civilian control, the military civilian secretary. So almost all authority and decision authority resides with the secretary. What the chief position brings is 30 years in the institution that very often can bring credibility and influence. And what we determined early in our tenure was that if we were going to move the ball, if we were going to actually move the service in a positive direction, neither of us could do it alone. We had to do it together. We had to use this combination of authority and influence to be able to move the institution forward. And so that was a — and we talked a lot about that, you know, in the book, and it sort of runs throughout our stories. You know, that that trust matters.

Naviere Walkewicz 12:59
Absolutely. We're going to visit that towards the end of our conversation, because there's a particular time before you both — before you became the chief and before you became the service secretary, when you met up together. And I want to visit that a little bit. But before we do, Gen. Goldfein — JD — you shared a story in the book, and obviously we want everyone to read it, so I'm not going to go tell the whole story, but you know where you took off one more time than you landed, and you had to, you know, you were hit, you had to evade and then you had to be rescued. There was a particular statement you made to identify yourself. And many of our Long Blue Line members will know this: fast, neat, average, friendly, good, good. In that moment of watching the sun start to rise while you're waiting to be retrieved, how did that come to your mind? Of all the things you could be thinking of to identify yourself?

Gen. Dave Goldfein 13:53
Well, you know, it's interesting. So, you know, for those who've never, you know, had gone through a high-speed ejection, people asked me, what was like? I said, “Well, I used to be 6-foot-3. This is all that's left, right?” And you know, my job once I was on the ground was, quite frankly, not to goof it up. To let the rescue team do what the rescue team needed to do, and to play my part, which was to put them at the least amount of risk and be able to get out before the sun came up. And at the very end of the rescue when the helicopters — where I was actually vectoring them towards my location. And I had a compass in my hand, and I had my eyes closed, and I was just listening to the chopper noise and then vectoring them based on noise. And then eventually we got them to come and land, you know, right in front of me. Well, they always teach you, and they taught me here at the Academy during SERE training, which I think has been retitled, but it was SERE when we went through it, survival training. Now, I believe they teach you, “Hey, listen, you need to be nonthreatening, because the rescue team needs to know that you're not — this is not an ambush, that you are actually who you say you are. Don't hold up a weapon, be submissive and authenticate yourself. Well, to authenticate myself required me to actually try my flashlight. And I could see the enemy just over the horizon. And as soon as the helicopter landed, the enemy knew exactly where we were, and they came and running, and they came shooting, and they were raking the tree line with bullets. And so, you know, what I needed to do was to figure out a way to do an authentication. And I just, what came to mind was that training all those years ago, right here at the Academy, and I just said, “I could use a fast, neat, average rescue,” and friendly, good, good was on the way.


Naviere Walkewicz 15:53
Wow, I just got chill bumps. Dr. Wilson, have you ever had to use that same kind of term, or, you know, reaching out to a grad in your time frequently?

Dr. Heather Wilson 16:04
Yes, ma'am. And, you know, even in the last week, funny — I had an issue that I had to, I won't go into the details, but where there was an issue that might affect the reputation, not only of the university, but of one of our major industry partners, and it wasn't caused by either of us, but there was kind of a, kind of a middle person that was known to us that may not have been entirely acting with integrity. And I just looked up the company. The CEO is an Academy grad. So I picked up the phone and I called the office and we had a conversation. And I said, “Hey, I'd like to have a conversation with you, grad to grad.” And I said, “There are some issues here that I don't need to go into the details, but where I think you and I need to be a little careful about our reputations and what matters is my relationship as the university with you and your company and what your company needs in terms of talent. But wanted to let you know something that happened and what we're doing about it, but I wanted to make sure that you and I are clear.” And it was foundation of values that we act with integrity and we don't tolerate people who won't.

Naviere Walkewicz 17:30
Yes, ma'am, I love that. The Long Blue Line runs deep that way, and that's a great example. JD, you spoke about, in the book, after the rescue — by the way, the picture in there of that entire crew was amazing. I love that picture. But you talked about getting back up in the air as soon as possible, without any pomp and circumstance. “Just get me back in the air and into the action.” I'd like to visit two things. One, you debriefed with the — on the check ride, the debrief on the check ride and why that was important. And then also you spoke about the dilemma of being dad and squad comm. Can you talk about that as well?


Gen. Dave Goldfein 18:06
Yeah, the check ride. So when I was in Desert Storm, an incredible squadron commander named Billy Diehl, and one of the things that he told us after he led all the missions in the first 30 days or so, he said, “Look, there will be a lot of medals, you know, from this war.” He goes, “But I'm going to do something for you that happened for me in Vietnam. I'm going to fly on your wing, and I'm going to give you a check ride, and you're going to have a documented check ride of a combat mission that you led in your flying record. I'm doing that for you.” OK, so fast forward 10 years, now I'm the squadron commander, and I basically followed his lead. Said, “Hey, I want…” So that night, when I was shot down, I was actually flying on the wing of one of my captains, “Jammer” Kavlick, giving him a check ride. And so, of course, the rescue turns out — I'm sitting here, so it turned out great. And so I called Jammer into a room, and I said, “Hey, man, we never did the check ride.” I said, “You know, you flew a formation right over the top of a surface enemy missile that took out your wingman. That's not a great start.” And he just sort of… “Yes, sir, I know.” I said, “And then you led an all-night rescue that returned him to his family. That's pretty good recovery.” And so it's been a joke between us ever since. But in his personal — his flying record, he has a form that says, “I'm exceptionally, exceptionally qualified.” So I got back and I thought about this when I was on the ground collecting rocks for my daughters, you know, as souvenirs from Serbia. I got back, and I looked at my wing commander, and I said, “Hey, sir, I know you probably had a chance to think about this, but I'm not your young captain that just got shot down. I'm the squadron commander, and I’ve got to get my squadron back on the horse, and the only way to do that is for me to get back in the air. So if it's OK with you, I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna get crew rest and I’m going to fly tonight.” And he looked at me, and he looked at my wife, Dawn, who was there, and he goes, “If it's OK with her, it's OK with me.” Great. Dawn, just a champion, she said, “I understand it. That's what you got to do.” Because we were flying combat missions with our families at home, which is, was not in the squadron commander handbook, right? Pretty unique. What I found, though, was that my oldest daughter was struggling a little bit with it, and so now you've got this, you know, OK, I owe it to my squad to get right back up in the air and lead that night. And I owe it to my daughter to make sure that she's OK. And so I chose to take one night, make sure that she and my youngest daughter, Diana, were both, you know, in a good place, that they knew that everything's going to be OK. And then I got back up the next night. And in some ways, I didn't talk about it with anybody in the media for a year, because my dad was a Vietnam vet, I'd met so many of his friends, and I'd met so many folks who had actually gotten shot down one and two and three times over Vietnam, in Laos, right? You know what they did after they got rescued? They got back up. They just went back up in the air, right? No fanfare, no book tours, no, you know, nothing, right? It was just get back to work. So for me, it was a way of very quietly honoring the Vietnam generation, to basically do what they did and get back in the air quietly. And so that was what it was all about.

Naviere Walkewicz 21:25
Dr. Wilson, how about for you? Because I know — I remember reading in the book you had a — there was something you said where, if your children called, no matter what they could always get through. So how have you balanced family?

Dr. Heather Wilson 21:36
Work and life. And so, when I was elected to the Congress, my son was 4 years old. My daughter was 18 months. First of all, I married well, just like Dave. But I also think my obligations to my family don't end at the front porch, and I want to make a better world for them. But I also knew that I was a better member of Congress because I had a family, and that in some ways, each gave richness and dimension to the other. We figured out how to make it work as a family. I mean, both my children have been to a White House Christmas ball and the State of the Union, but we always had a rule that you can call no matter what. And I remember there were some times that it confounded people and, like, there was one time when President Bush — W. Bush, 43 — was coming to New Mexico for the first time, and he was going to do some events in Albuquerque. And they called and they said, “Well, if the congresswoman wants to fly in with him from Texas, you know, she can get off the airplane in her district with the president. And the answer was, “That's the first day of school, and I always take my kids to school the first day, so I'll just meet him here.” And the staff was stunned by that, like, she turns down a ride on Air Force One to arrive in her district with the president of the United States to take her kids to school. Yes, George Bush understood it completely. And likewise, when the vice president came, and it was, you know, that the one thing leading up to another tough election — I never had an easy election — and the one thing I said to my staff all the way through October, leading — “There's one night I need off, and that's Halloween, because we're going trick or treating.” And wouldn't you know the vice president is flying into New Mexico on Halloween for some event in New Mexico, and we told them, “I will meet them at the stairs when they arrive in Albuquerque. I'll have my family with them, but I won't be going to the event because we're going trick or treating.” And in my house, I have this great picture of the vice president of the United States and his wife and my kids in costume meeting. So most senior people understood that my family was important to me and everybody's family, you know — most people work to put food on the table, and if, as a leader, you recognize that and you give them grace when they need it, you will also have wonderful people who will work for you sometimes when the pay is better somewhere else because you respect that their families matter to them and making room for that love is important.


Naviere Walkewicz 24:36
May I ask a follow on to that? Because I think that what you said was really important. You had a leader that understood. What about some of our listeners that maybe have leaders that don't value the same things or family in the way that is important. How do they navigate that?

Dr. Heather Wilson 24:52
Sometimes you look towards the next assignment, or you find a place where your values are the same. And if we have leaders out there who are not being cognizant of the importance of family — I mean, we may recruit airmen but we retain families, and if we are not paying attention to that, then we will lose exceptional people. So that means that sometimes, you know, I give a lot of flexibility to people who are very high performers and work with me. And I also know that if I call them at 10 o'clock at night, they're going to answer the phone, and that's OK. I understand what it's like to — I remember, you know, I was in New Mexico, I was a member of Congress, somebody was calling about an issue in the budget, and my daughter, who was probably 4 at the time, had an ear infection, and it was just miserable. And so I'm trying to get soup into her, and this guy is calling me, and she's got — and it was one of the few times I said — and it was the chairman of a committee — I said, “Can I just call you back? I've got a kid with an ear infection…” And he had five kids. He said, “Oh, absolutely, you call me back.” So you just be honest with people about the importance of family. Why are we in the service? We're here to protect our families and everybody else's family. And that's OK.

 

Naviere Walkewicz 26:23
Yes, thank you for sharing that. Anything to add to that, JD? No? OK. Well, Dr. Wilson, I'd like to go into the book where you talk about your chapter on collecting tools, which is a wonderful chapter, and you talk about Malcolm Baldridge. I had to look him up — I'll be honest — to understand, as a businessman, his career and his legacy. But maybe share in particular why he has helped you. Or maybe you've leveraged his process in the way that you kind of think through and systematically approach things.

Dr. Heather Wilson 26:49
Yeah, there was a movement in the, it would have been in the early ’90s, on the Malcolm Baldrige Quality Awards. It came out of the Department of Commerce, but then it spread to many of the states and it was one of the better models I thought for how to run organizations strategically. And I learned about it when I was a small businessperson in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I thought it was interesting. But the thing that I liked about it was it scaled. It was a little bit like broccoli, you know, it looks the same at the little flora as it does at the whole head, right? And so it kind of became a model for how I could use those tools about being data driven, strategically focused, process oriented that I could use in reforming a large and not very well functioning child welfare department when I became a cabinet secretary for children, youth and families, which was not on my how-to-run-my-career card. That was not in the plan, but again, it was a set of tools that I’d learned in one place that I brought with me and thought might work in another.

Naviere Walkewicz 28:02
Excellent. And do you follow a similar approach, JD, in how you approach a big problem?

Gen. Dave Goldfein 28:07
I think we're all lifelong students of different models and different frameworks that work. And there's not a one-size-fits-all for every organization. And the best leaders, I think, are able to tailor their approach based on what the mission — who the people are, what they're trying to accomplish. I had a chance to be a an aide de camp to a three-star, Mike Ryan, early in my career, and he went on to be chief of staff of the Air Force. And one of the frameworks that he taught me was he said, “If you really want to get anything done,” he said, “you’ve got to do three things.” He said, “First of all, you got to put a single person in charge.” He said, “Committees and groups solve very little. Someone's got to drive to work feeling like they've got the authority, the responsibility, the resources and everything they need to accomplish what it is that you want to accomplish. So get a single person in charge. Most important decision you will make as a leader, put the right person in charge. Second, that person owes you a plan in English. Not 15 PowerPoint slides, right, but something that clearly articulates in one to two pages, max, exactly what we're trying to accomplish. And the third is, you’ve got to have a way to follow up.” He said, “Because life gets in the way of any perfect plan. And what will happen is,” he goes, “I will tell you how many times,” he said, “that I would circle back with my team, you know, a couple months later and say, ‘How's it going?’ And they would all look at each other and say, “Well, I thought you were in charge,” right? And then after that, once they figure out who was in charge, they said, “Well, we were working this plan, but we got, you know, we had to go left versus right, because we had this crisis, this alligator started circling the canoe, and therefore we had to, you know, take care of that,” right? He says, “As a leader, those are the three elements of any success. Put someone in charge. Build a plan that's understandable and readable, and always follow up. And I've used that as a framework, you know, throughout different organizations, even all the way as chief to find — to make sure that we had the right things.


Dr. Heather Wilson 30:21
Even this morning, somebody came by who reminded us of a story that probably should have been in the book, where we had — it was a cyber vulnerability that was related to a particular piece of software widely deployed, and the CIO was having trouble getting the MAJCOMMS to kind of take it seriously. And they were saying, “Well, you know, we think maybe in 30, 60, 90 days, six months, we'll have it all done,” or whatever. So I said, “OK, let all the four-stars know. I want to be updated every 36 hours on how many of them, they still have, still have not updated.” I mean, this is a major cyber vulnerability that we knew was — could be exploited and wasn't some little thing. It was amazing; it got done faster.

Naviere Walkewicz 31:11
No 90 days later. Oh, my goodness. Well, that was excellent and actually, I saw that in action in the story, in the book, after the attack on the Pentagon, and when you stood up and took charge, kind of the relief efforts, because many people were coming in that wanted to help, and they just needed someone to lead how that could happen. So you were putting into practice. Yes, sir. I'd like to get into where you talk about living your purpose, and that's a chapter in there. But you know, Gen. Goldfein, we have to get into this. You left the Academy as a cadet, and I think that's something that not many people are familiar with. You ride across the country on a bike with a guitar on your back for part of the time — and you sent it to Dawn after a little while — Mini-Bear in your shirt, to find your purpose. Was there a moment during the six months that you that hit you like lightning and you knew that this was your purpose, or was it a gradual meeting of those different Americans you kind of came across?


Gen. Dave Goldfein 32:04
Definitely gradual. You know, it was something that just built up over time. I used to joke — we both knew Chairman John McCain and always had great respect for him. And I remember one time in his office, I said, “Chairman, I got to share with you that I lived in constant fear during every hearing that you were going to hold up a piece of paper on camera and say, ‘General, I got your transcript from the Air Force Academy. You got to be kidding me, right?’ And he laughed, and he said, Trust me, if you looked at my transcript in Annapolis,” he goes, “I'm the last guy that would have ever asked that question.” But you know, the we made a mutual decision here, sometimes just things all come together. I'd written a paper on finding my purpose about the same time that there was a professor from Annapolis that was visiting and talking about a sabbatical program that Annapolis had started. And so they started talking about it, and then this paper made it and I got called in. They said, “Hey, we're thinking about starting this program, you know, called Stop Out, designed to stop people from getting out. We read your paper. What would you do if you could take a year off?” And I said, “Wow, you know, if I could do it, I'll tell you. I would start by going to Philmont Scout Ranch, you know, and be a backcountry Ranger,” because my passion was for the outdoors, and do that. “And then I would go join my musical hero, Harry Chapin.” Oh, by the way, he came to the United States Air Force Academy in the early ’60s. Right? Left here, built a band and wrote the hit song Taxi. “So I would go join him as a roadie and just sort of see whether music and the outdoors, which my passions are, what, you know, what it's all about for me.” Well, we lost contact with the Chapin connection. So I ended up on this bicycle riding around the country. And so many families took me in, and so many towns that I rode into, you know, I found that if I just went to the library and said, “Hey, tell me a little bit about the history of this town,” the librarian would call, like, the last, you know, three or four of the seniors the town, they'd all rush over to tell me the story of, you know, this particular little town, right? And then someone would also say, “Hey, where are you staying tonight?” “I'm staying in my tent.” They said, “Oh, come stay with me.” So gradually, over time, I got to know America, and came to the conclusion when I had to make the decision to come back or not, that this country is really worth defending, that these people are hard-working, you know, that want to make the world better for their kids and their grandkids, and they deserve a United States Air Force, the best air force on the planet, to defend them. So, you know, when I came back my last two years, and I always love sharing this with cadets, because some of them are fighting it, some of them have embraced it. And all I tell them is, “Hey, I've done both. And all I can tell you is, the sooner you embrace it and find your purpose, this place is a lot more fun.”

Naviere Walkewicz 35:13
Truth in that, yes, yes, well. And, Dr. Wilson, how did you know you were living your purpose?

Dr. Heather Wilson 35:19
Well, I've had a lot of different chapters to my life. Yes, and we can intellectualize it on why we, you know, why I made a certain decision at a certain time, but there were doors that opened that I never even knew were there. But at each time and at each junction, there was a moment where somehow I just knew. And at South Dakota Mines is a good example. You know, I lost a race to the United States Senate. I actually had some interns — I benefited from a lousy job market, and I had fantastic interns, and we were helping them through the loss. You know, they're young. They were passionate. They, as Churchill said, “The blessing and the curse of representative government is one in the same. The people get what they choose.” And so I was helping them through that, and one of them said, “Well, Dr. Wilson, you're really great with students. You should be a college president somewhere. Texas Tech needs a president. You should apply there,” because that's where this kid was going to school. And I said, “Well, but I don't think they're looking for me.” But it did cause me to start thinking about it and I had come close. I had been asked about a college presidency once before, and I started looking at it and talking to headhunters and so forth. And initially, South Dakota Mines didn't seem like a great fit, because I'm a Bachelor of Science degree here, but my Ph.D. is in a nonscientific discipline, and it's all engineers and scientists. But as I went through the process, it just felt more and more right. And on the day of the final interviews, that evening, it was snowing in South Dakota, there was a concert in the old gym. I mean, this is an engineering school, and they had a faculty member there who had been there for 40 years, who taught choral music, and the students stood up, and they started singing their warm up, which starts out with just one voice, and eventually gets to a 16-part harmony and it's in Latin, and it's music is a gift from God, and they go through it once, and then this 40th anniversary concert, about 50 people from the audience stand up and start singing. It's like a flash mob, almost These were all alumni who came back. Forty years of alumni to be there for that concert for him. And they all went up on stage and sang together in this just stunning, beautiful concert by a bunch of engineers. And I thought, “There's something special going on here that's worth being part of,” and there are times when you just know. And the same with becoming cabinet secretary for children, youth and families — that was not in the plan and there's just a moment where I knew that was what I should do now. How I should use my gifts now? And you hope that you're right in making those decisions.

 

Naviere Walkewicz 38:43
Well, probably aligning with JD’s point in the book of following your gut. Some of that's probably attached to you finding your purpose. Excellent. I'd like to visit the time Dr. Wilson, when you were helping President Bush with the State of the Union address, and in particular, you had grueling days, a lot of hours prepping, and when it was time for it to be delivered, you weren't there. You went home to your apartment in the dark. You were listening on the radio, and there was a moment when the Congress applauded and you felt proud, but something that you said really stuck with me. And he said, I really enjoy being the low-key staff member who gets stuff done. Can you talk more about that? Because I think sometimes we don't, you know, the unsung heroes are sometimes the ones that are really getting so many things done, but nobody knows.


Dr. Heather Wilson 39:31
So, I’m something of an introvert and I've acquired extrovert characteristics in order to survive professionally. But when it comes to where I get my batteries recharged, I'm quite an introvert, and I really loved — and the same in international negotiations, being often the liaison, the back channel, and I did that in the conventional forces in Europe negotiations for the American ambassador. And in some ways, I think it might have been — in the case of the conventional forces in Europe negotiations, I was on the American delegation here. I was in Vienna. I ended up there because, for a bunch of weird reasons, then they asked me if I would go there for three months TDY. It's like, “Oh, three months TDY in Vienna, Austria. Sign me up.” But I became a very junior member on the delegation, but I was the office of the secretary of defense's representative, and walked into this palace where they were negotiating between what was then the 16 NATO nations and the seven Warsaw Pact countries. And the American ambassador turned to me, and he said during this several times, “I want you to sit behind me and to my right, and several times I'm going to turn and talk to you, and I just want you to lean in and answer.” I mean, he wasn't asking anything substantive, and I just, “Yes, sir.” But what he was doing was credentialing me in front of the other countries around that table. Now, I was very young, there were only two women in the room. The other one was from Iceland, and what he was doing was putting me in a position to be able to negotiate the back channel with several of our allies and with — this was six months or so now, maybe a year before the fall of the Berlin Wall. So things were changing in Eastern Europe, and so I really have always enjoyed just that quietly getting things done, building consensus, finding the common ground, figuring out a problem. Actually have several coffee mugs that just say GSD, and the other side does say, Get Stuff Done. And I like that, and I like people who do that. And I think those quiet — we probably don't say thank you enough to the quiet, hardworking people that just figure out how to get stuff done.


Naviere Walkewicz 41:59
Well, I like how he credentialed you and actually brought that kind of credibility in that way as a leader. JD, how have you done that as a leader? Champion, some of those quiet, behind the scenes, unsung heroes.

Gen. Dave Goldfein 42:11
I'm not sure where the quote comes from, but it's something to the effect of, “It's amazing what you can get done if you don't care who gets the credit.” There's so much truth to that. You know, in the in the sharing of success, right? As servant leaders, one of the things that I think both of us spend a lot of time on is to make sure that credit is shared with all the folks who, behind the scenes, you know, are doing the hard, hard work to make things happen, and very often, you know, we're the recipients of the thank yous, right? And the gratefulness of an organization or for somebody who's benefited from our work, but when you're at the very senior leaders, you know what you do is you lay out the vision, you create the environment to achieve that vision. But the hard, hard work is done by so many others around you. Today, in the audience when we were there at Polaris Hall, was Col. Dave Herndon. So Col. Dave Herndon, when he was Maj. Dave Herndon, was my aide de camp, and I can tell you that there are so many successes that his fingers are on that he got zero credit for, because he was quietly behind the scenes, making things happen, and that's just the nature of servant leadership, is making sure that when things go well, you share it, and when things go badly, you own it.

Naviere Walkewicz 43:47
And you do share a really remarkable story in there about accountability. And so we won't spend so much time talking about that, but I do want to go to the point where you talk about listening, and you say, listening is not passive; it's active and transformative. As servant leaders, have you ever uncovered challenges that your team has experienced that you didn't have the ability to fix and you know, what action did you take in those instances?

Dr. Heather Wilson 44:09
You mean this morning? All the time. And sometimes — and then people will give you grace, if you're honest about that. You don't make wild promises about what you can do, but then you sit and listen and work through and see all right, what is within the realm of the possible here. What can we get done? Or who can we bring to the table to help with a set of problems? But, there's no… You don't get a — when I was president of South Dakota Mines, one of the people who worked with me, actually gave me, from the toy store, a magic wand. But it doesn't work. But I keep it in my office, in case, you know… So there's no magic wands, but being out there listening to understand, not just listening to refute, right? And then seeing whether there are things that can be done, even if there's some things you just don't have the answers for, right?


Gen. Dave Goldfein 45:11
The other thing I would offer is that as senior leadership and as a senior leadership team, you rarely actually completely solve anything. What you do is improve things and move the ball. You take the hand you're dealt, right, and you find creative solutions. You create the environment, lay out the vision and then make sure you follow up, move the ball, and if you get at the end of your tenure, it's time for you to move on, and you've got the ball moved 20, 30, yards down the field. That's actually not bad, because most of the things we were taking on together, right, were big, hard challenges that we needed to move the ball on, right? I If you said, “Hey, did you completely revitalize the squadrons across the United States Air Force?” I will tell you, absolutely not. Did we get the ball about 20, 30 yards down the field? And I hope so. I think we did. Did we take the overhaul that we did of officer development to be able to ensure that we were producing the senior leaders that the nation needs, not just the United States Air Force needs? I will tell you that we didn't solve it completely, but we moved the ball down the field, and we did it in a way that was able to stick. You know, very often you plant seeds as a leader, and you never know whether those seeds are going to, you know, these seeds are ideas, right? And you never know whether the seeds are going to hit fertile soil or rocks. And I would often tell, you know, young leaders too. I said, you know, in your last few months that you're privileged to be in the position of leadership, you’ve got two bottles on your hip. You're walking around with — one of them's got fertilizer and one of them's got Roundup. And your job in that final few months is to take a look at the seeds that you planted and truly determine whether they hit fertile soil and they've grown roots, and if they've grown roots, you pull out the fertilizer, and the fertilizer you're putting on it is to make it part of the institution not associated with you, right? You want somebody some years from now say, “Hey, how do we ever do that whole squadron thing?” The right answer is, “I have no idea, but look at how much better we are.” That's the right answer, right? That's the fertilizer you put on it. But it's just equally important to take a look at the ideas that, just for whatever reason, sometimes beyond your control — they just didn't stick right. Get out the Roundup. Because what you don't want to do is to pass on to your successor something that didn't work for you, because it probably ain't going to work for her.

Dr. Heather Wilson 47:46
That's right, which is one of the rules of leadership is take the garbage out with you when you go.


Naviere Walkewicz 47:51
I like that. I like that a lot. Well, we are — just a little bit of time left. I want to end this kind of together on a story that you shared in the book about laughter being one of the tools you share. And after we share this together, I would like to ask you, I know we talked about mirror checks, but what are some things that you guys are doing every day to be better as well, to continue learning. But to get to the laughter piece, you mentioned that laughter is an underappreciated tool and for leaders, something that you both share. I want to talk about the time when you got together for dinner before you began working as chief and service secretary, and I think you may have sung an AF pro song. We're not going to ask you to sing that today, unless you'd like to JD? But let's talk about laughter.

 

Gen. Dave Goldfein 48:31
The dean would throw me out.


Naviere Walkewicz 48:33
OK, OK, we won't have you sing that today. But how have you found laughter — when you talk about — when the questions and the problems come up to you?

 

Dr. Heather Wilson 48:40
So I'm going to start this because I think Dave Goldfein has mastered this leadership skill of how to use humor, and self-deprecating humor, better than almost any leader I've ever met. And it's disarming, which is a great technique, because he's actually wicked smart. But it's also people walk in the room knowing if you're going to a town hall meeting or you're going to be around the table, at least sometime in that meeting, we're going to laugh. And it creates a warmth and people drop their guard a little bit. You get to the business a little bit earlier. You get beyond the standard PowerPoint slides, and people just get down to work. And it just — people relax. And I think Dave is very, very good at it. Now, my husband would tell you that I was raised in the home for the humor impaired, and I have been in therapy with him for almost 35 years.

 

Naviere Walkewicz 49:37
So have you improved?

Dr. Heather Wilson 49:39
He thinks I've made some progress.

 

Naviere Walkewicz 49:41
You’ve moved the ball.

 

Dr. Heather Wilson 49:44
Yes. Made some progress. I still don't — I used to start out with saying the punch line and then explain why it was funny.

Naviere Walkewicz 49:52
I’m in your camp a little bit. I try. My husband says, “Leave the humor to me.”

Dr. Heather Wilson 49:54
Yeah, exactly. You understand.

Gen. Dave Goldfein 49:58
I used to joke that I am a member of the Class of 1981[’82 and ’83]. I am the John Belushi of the United States Air Force Academy, a patron saint of late bloomers. But you know, honestly, Heather doesn't give herself enough credit for building an environment where, you know, folks can actually do their very best work. That's one of the things that we do, right? Because we have — the tools that we have available to be able to get things done very often, are the people that are we're privileged to lead and making sure that they are part of an organization where they feel valued, where we're squinting with our ears. We're actually listening to them. Where they're making a contribution, right? Where they believe that what they're being able to do as part of the institution or the organization is so much more than they could ever do on their own. That's what leadership is all about.

Dr. Heather Wilson 51:05
You know, we try to — I think both of us see the humor in everyday life, and when people know that I have a desk plate that I got in South Dakota, and it doesn't say “President.” It doesn't say “Dr. Wilson.” It says, “You're kidding me, right?” Because once a week, more frequently as secretary and chief, but certainly frequently as a college president, somebody is going to walk in and say, “Chief, there's something you need to know.” And if they know they're going to get blasted out of the water or yelled at, people are going to be less likely to come in and tell you, right, what you need to know. But if you're at least willing to laugh at the absurdity of the — somebody thought that was a good idea, you know. My gosh, let's call the lawyers or whatever. But you know, you’ve just got to laugh, and if you laugh, people will know that you just put things in perspective and then deal with the problem.

Naviere Walkewicz  52:06
Well, it connects us as humans. Yeah. Well, during my conversation today with Dr. Heather Wilson and Gen. Dave Goldfein — JD — two lessons really stood out to me. Leadership is not about avoiding the fall, but about how high you bounce back and how your recovery can inspire those you lead. It's also about service, showing up, doing the hard work and putting others before yourself with humility, integrity and working together. Dr. Wilson, Gen. Goldfein, thank you for showing us how courage, compassion and connection — they're not soft skills. They're actually the edge of hard leadership. And when you do that and you lead with service, you get back up after every fall. You encourage others to follow and do the same. Thank you for joining us for this powerful conversation. You can find Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, wherever books are sold. And learn more at getbackupeadership.com. If today's episode inspired you, please share it with someone who can really benefit in their own leadership journey. As always, keep learning. Keep getting back up. Keep trying. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. This has been Focus On Leadership. Until next time.

Producer

This edition of Focus on Leadership, the accelerated leadership series, was recorded on Monday, Oct. 6, 2025.

 

KEYWORDS

Leadership, servant leadership, resilience, humility, integrity, influence, teamwork, family, trust, listening, learning, purpose, growth, accountability, service, courage, compassion, balance, values, inspiration.

 

 

The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation