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How do you stay connected to people when you’re responsible for 435,000 of them?
SUMMARY
On the latest Long Blue Leadership, Gen. Steven “Spock” Nordhaus ’89, chief of the National Guard Bureau, shares lessons from a lifetime of service, from flying F-16s to serving on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Hear his thoughts on mentorship, trust, resilience, family and why leaders should focus on getting 1% better every day.
 
GEN. NORDHAUS' TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 
1. Lead through service. Put the mission, your team, your community, and your family before yourself; Gen. Nordhaus sees service as the foundation of his leadership approach. 
2. Treat mentorship as an everyday responsibility. Look for opportunities to guide others, while staying open to learning from them in return. 
3. Build trust through presence. Get out among your people, learn their stories, and see firsthand what they need to do their jobs well. 
4. Listen, then act on practical needs. His walkabouts helped him identify problems — like poor facilities — and work with the team to address them. 
5. Bring the whole team together to solve problems. Nordhaus describes optimism not as empty positivity, but as believing people can work together to find a solution. 
6. Keep moving forward through adversity. When challenges arise, bring in teammates, work through the problem, and persevere. 
7. Recognize that leadership is a team effort. Strong results come from integrating people with different roles, skills, and perspectives. 
8. Be humble, approachable, and credible. Treat people as individuals, greet them, and stay curious about what you can learn from them. 
9. Take care of families as well as service members. Gen. Nordhaus emphasizes that supporting families is essential to supporting the people who serve. 
10. Improve consistently and act on what matters today. Check in on your priorities, aim to get a little better each day, and make a list of what needs to be done — then do it.  
  
CHAPTERS 
00:00:00 — Genera.l Nordhaus and the National Guard’s Mission Gen. Steven Nordhaus describes leading the National Guard and its roles in homeland defense, global operations, disaster response, and international partnerships. 
00:03:29 — Growing Up in Ottawa and Discovering Aviation Gen. Nordhaus reflects on his family’s values and how flying with his uncle inspired him to pursue a career as an Air Force pilot. 
00:06:04 — The Mentor Who Guided His Path to the Air Force He shares how retired Maj. Don Schmienk helped him see a path to becoming a fighter pilot and remained a source of guidance throughout his career. 
00:08:13 — Mentorship as an Everyday Leadership Practice Gen. Nordhaus explains how he learned from his mentor and now makes a point of mentoring service members and aspiring leaders. 
00:10:13 — Hurricane Andrew and Resilience Through Adversity He recalls the hurricane’s destruction of his home and base and the lesson that tough times can be overcome by moving forward. 
00:13:20 — From F-16 Wingman to Joint-Team Leader Gen. Nordhaus describes how fighter-pilot experience helped him appreciate teamwork and the integration of military services and partners. 
00:16:02 — Choosing the National Guard and Continuing to Serve He explains why he joined the Guard to keep flying, serve near family, and pursue opportunities in both military and civilian aviation. 
00:18:26 — Civilian Skills as a National Guard Force Multiplier Gen. Nordhaus highlights how Guard members bring expertise from civilian careers into military service, strengthening their units and the nation. 
00:21:17 — Building Trust Through Presence and Personal Connection He describes using walkabouts, listening to service members, and helping address practical needs to build trust and unit pride. 
00:27:14 — Supporting Military Families and Practicing Self-Care Gen. Nordhaus discusses the importance of caring for service members’ families and maintaining his own health through exercise and outdoor activities. 
00:32:15 — Getting 1% Better Every Day He shares how regular check-ins, reading, and attention to physical, mental, social, and spiritual well-being support continuous improvement. 
00:34:05 — Nordhaus’s Leadership SOP: Service, Optimism, and Passion He explains how service guides his leadership, optimism helps teams solve problems, and passion brings energy to the mission. 
00:38:34 — Leadership Lessons, Perseverance, and Guaranteed Success Gen. Nordhaus offers advice on teamwork, humility, resilience, and taking action, closing with a story about making a list of what needs to be done and doing it. 
 
ABOUT GEN. NORDHAUS 
BIO
Gen. Steven S. Nordhaus ’89 serves as the 30th Chief of the National Guard Bureau and a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In this role, he serves as a military adviser to the President, Secretary of Defense and National Security Council, while overseeing the readiness and capabilities of more than 430,000 Army and Air National Guard personnel. A 1989 graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, Nordhaus has spent more than three decades serving in operational, command and strategic leadership positions across the Air Force and National Guard.
A command pilot with more than 3,000 flight hours, Nordhaus has flown combat missions in Operations Southern Watch, Vigilant Warrior, Northern Watch, Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom. His career includes commanding the Ohio Air National Guard's 180th Fighter Wing, leading the Air National Guard Readiness Center and serving as commander of First Air Force and the Continental U.S. NORAD Region. Throughout his career, he has helped lead missions spanning homeland defense, global military operations and the development of combat-ready forces.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS:
Gen. Steven Nordhaus ’89, guest  |  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99, host
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz  0:00
When Gen. Steven Nordhaus, Class of ’89, began flying F-16s, leadership meant being a good wingman. Today, as chief of the National Guard Bureau, he leads at an extraordinary scale. So, how does a leader keep leadership personal when responsibility grows beyond anyone's individual reach? Find out more. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99, Long Blue Leadership starts now. Gen. Steven “Spock” Nordhaus is a USAFA graduate, Class of 1989. He’s the 30th chief of the National Guard Bureau and is a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. His career began in the cockpit of an F-16, and today he leads over 430,000 soldiers and airmen serving here at home and around the world. But today we hope to get beyond the title and the stars to understand some of the experiences, the people, and the stories that shaped him into the leader he is today. So, without further ado, Chief, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  0:59
Thank you, Naviere. It’s great to be here with you, and I look forward to our time together. And thanks for what you do to tell stories of service members around the globe.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  1:07
Sir, it’s really easy with our graduates because the stories are so compelling. And so we’re going to jump right in. And I think before we go back in time, let’s spend a little bit of time if you would bring us into your role today. So my question would be, you know, what does serving as a chief of the National Guard Bureau— what does that actually ask of you? And what might surprise people about that role?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  1:28
Well, Naviere, as you look at the chief of the National Guard Bureau being a member of the Joint Chiefs, I have to make sure that I’m focused on the 435,000 guardsmen that are serving not only in the homeland but around the world. Today we have about 40,000 guardsmen engaged — about 20,000 overseas and about 20,000 in the homeland, either doing homeland defense or homeland security, or they’re supporting wildfires or hurricanes or doing search-and-rescue missions. Just a couple days ago, we had to save lives out in Idaho, and so somewhere around the world, the National Guard is saving a life every day. And sometimes I think it’s more like four or five lives a day. But with that, the National Guard is 20% of the Joint Force. So if you think about Absolute Resolve or Epic Fury, that’s the National Guard. And so we’re doing that war fight, but we also do homeland and partnerships, and so the defense of the homeland is done. Niney-four percent of that is done by National Guard units. We also do ballistic missile defense, which a lot of people don’t understand. We also do counter drug. Last year, we took $15 billion of drugs off of the streets in support of law enforcement across 50 states, three territories and the District of Columbia, and then we also do things that help our local communities all the way across, just like the rest of the services do. So we want to be local to global, and in that partnership, so we’re helping our local fire departments, but we’re also partnered with 60% of the nations around the globe. We just signed our 117th partnership with Maryland and Kuwait. And so if you think about Saudi Arabia has partnered with Oklahoma and Indiana, California just got partnered with Mexico, and I just met with ambassador and chief of defense for Latvia, and they were one of our first partners in 1993, as that program stood up with the first 13 with the fall of the Soviet Union, and they’re partnered with Michigan.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  3:29
Wow. Well, I think about when we talk about just in general how many of us wear different hats. I think you might you might take the cake sir and all the hats that you’re wearing and the ways that you’re leading the troops. So we thank you for that. Might we spend a little time going back in time now and think about who you were back in the day before you got to the Air Force Academy? I’m curious about young Steven Nordhaus. If you could just paint a picture of what you were like.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  3:55
So, grown up in Ottawa, Ohio, it’s in Putnam County, named after Israel Putnam.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  4:02
OK.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  4:02
He was a guardsman.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  4:03
Wow, I didn’t realize that. OK.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  4:05
Nineteen April, 1775. He was in his field at a plow share when horse riders came up and said shots heard ’round the world. And he got on a horse and rode 100 miles to join the army observation, leaving his plow in the field, his tavern in town and his family, and so as I think about my time with my family — we were about faith, family and freedom, right? And so my mom and dad, incredible leaders, and so they formed me into the young adult I was, and so I was focused on playing basketball and doing sports at the time. So I really wanted to play in the NBA, but somehow I just didn’t have the skills, the height or the athleticism. So one day during my sophomore year, I went out flying with my uncle, and I’d been flying with my dad a lot, and so we were going back and forth. But it was that moment when we took off that day that I said, “Hey, I think I want to fly for a living.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  5:01
Wow!
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  5:02
And so I came home and talked to my dad, my dad Don, and he said, “Hey, I think you should go down the street and talk to Maj. (Ret.) Don Schmenk.” And so I knew he flew for the Air Force, but I really didn't know much more than that. So I went down the street. It was a sunny morning, and I knocked on his door, and the screen door was open. I saw him come around the corner, and he was like, “Hey, Nordhaus kid, what do you want?” And I said, “I think I want to fly for the Air Force.” And he was like, “Come in, sit down.” And so he sat down at the table, and his passion just shined through. And he was like, “You’re going to go to the Air Force Academy. If you don't go to the Air Force Academy, you're going to go through ROTC. If you don’t get accepted to ROTC, you're going to go through OTS, and you're going to fly fighters. And here's the path that you're going to take to do that.” And just instill to me what I wanted to do. So I went back and after that moment, put every effort into, you know, finding out about the Air Force Academy, finding out you know how to get in and what I need to do to be competitive.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  6:04
So he was your first kind of experience or taste of the military? Or did your dad or anyone else kind of expose you to…
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  6:13
Yes. Yeah. Thanks, Naviere. My dad had two years that he served in the Navy. And then he came back and did his last four years in the Navy Reserve. He liked his Navy time, but when he saw the opportunity for me to really get after flying, because we own a J-3 Cub, he owned a Cub at that time, and my brother and I still have it, and we still fly it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  6:34
Wow, oh, that’s fantastic. So, and kudos to your dad for saying, “OK, I know the Navy side of the house, but, you know, based off of your goals, let's go over here.” So, Don Schmenk, it sounds like he's an incredible mentor, someone that kind of stayed in touch with you over your career. What has that relationship been like?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  6:52
Yeah, he absolutely did. So every time I would come back to Ottawa, I would go see him
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  7:00
He was like, “I got you here.”
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  7:01
I got to fly; he had a plane. I got to fly with him in it. We would, you know, we did a little bit of formation flying in the J-3 Cub and his plane, and we would talk about flying where we kept our J-3 Cub. Junior Frey was in the Navy too, and he went back. And when he got out of the Navy, he started a crop-dusting port, and so that’s where we kept our J-3 Cub for that period of time. And his son flew with Delta Airlines, so Jeff Frey. And so between flying, it was just a part of our culture back then. And so I knew I wanted to fly. And my dad was always focused on. He didn't see problems; he saw them as opportunities. So he'd go like, “Hey, yeah, there’s some problems on what you need to do to get into the Air Force Academy, but you can turn those into opportunities.” And so I always took that forward through my life. And with Don Schmenk, he was the same way with that passion, that love for aviation, but for serving as well.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  7:59
Right. It’s almost like Don Schmenk was part of the family.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  8:02
He was.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  8:03
And when I think about what he was to you, can you think of an example where you became Maj. Don Schmenk for someone else? And if you use your son as an example, I’m gonna say you're cheating a little bit.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  8:13
Well, let me do a couple things here, if I can, Naviere.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  8:15
Of course.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  8:17
When I got to know Don Schmenk a little bit better, I started learning what he did flying for the Air Force. So he flew in Vietnam and he had 235 combat missions in the F-100, and so just an amazing leader. And so he would talk about his combat time. And so as I got into flying fighters, we would go back and forth about the technology of the jets and that part. He died a few years back and when I went to see him at Christmas time, he was still cutting out F-100 paper airplanes. And so, it just goes to show his competitiveness, his love for flying. But he mentored me throughout my life. Now, you ask me who I mentor, and I feel like it's an everyday thing, right? We talked earlier before this that just yesterday I was in the BX. I was talking to somebody who wants to come be a rugby player here at the Air Force Academy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  9:12
Great place to do it.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  9:14
I went to another location, and first lieutenant just got his commission. He's headed up to Alaska, so we were talking about how he goes into his squadron. But I do go back to you know my sons. I go back to when I was in the Air National Guard at the 180th Fighter Wing, and we would mentor other folks that would actually enlisted that would come and get commission and join the Air Force Academy. So there were multiple— Kyle, Lindsay, others that I would mentor, and that they got into the Academy and continue forward. So many opportunities. But I see that today that as leaders we need to mentor every day, and so whoever we're with, we need to where we have those moments. So whether it's an aide to camp or whether it's an XO or whether it's directors that I get to work with or other service chiefs, I'm learning from them, right? And then back and forth, passing what I learn on down as fast as I can.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  10:13
That's right. Well, mentorship being a two-way street always is much more effective. I'm curious though, what happens when there's not a mentor in your life? And I'm specifically going back to a time in ’92 when you’re a lieutenant. You’re, you know, you and Shannon are married. I think you have children on the way, or maybe one already. And Hurricane Andrew shows up and says hello. Can you take us to that moment in your life and how you navigated when maybe there wasn’t a mentor right at the doorstep?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  10:40
Well, Naviere, if I take myself back to that time, so I was flying the F-16 for about a year. We had— Whitney was about one year old. She was about a year and a half. Shannon was pregnant with Clay, and so I headed with the F-16s out to Nellis to do a red flag, and I was out there, and about a week into a two and a half week deployment, we saw that there was a hurricane coming right at Homestead, and so I called Shannon, and we called our neighbor and said, “Hey, can you grab a box of our most prized things, our wedding photos, and a couple birth certificates and things like that?” And so they grabbed that box for us. But Hurricane Andrew swept right in, destroyed her home, destroyed the base, and was really devastating across southern Florida. And to see the devastation of a Cat 5 hurricane has been helpful through my life, right, as I go up through, because in different roles I've held right. It's getting after hurricanes and things like that. But from that standpoint, we, you know, just picked up. You grab your stuff. Tough times don’t last. Tough people do. And I learned that at the boxing arena here, like week two as a cadet. I was walking through, going like, “Hey, can I really do four years of this Academy thing?” And I remember seeing that sign: “Tough times don't last. Tough people do.” And so that was a great opportunity to see how adversity comes, but you just pick up and keep moving forward. And so Shannon and I went to Shaw Air Force Base. She had our child Clay out at McConnell Air Force Base, and then we continued to fly the F-16 at Shaw for four years. But it's one of those things that we just take, as you've heard and we've talked about my standard operating procedure: service, optimism and passion, and just keep serving, right? Keep moving forward. Optimism is that problem solving that my dad gave me. It’s not problem; it can turn into opportunities. And so I went from Homestead up to Shaw, and that’s where I got to fly the Block 50 and help bring on the HARM targeting system back in the in the day, and then do some of my early combat missions.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  12:56
Well, and I’m thinking about what you’re talking about. You know, when you said it’s given you perspective. Obviously, it’s helped with, you know, the way you think about service. Keep working at it, optimism and passion. And we’re going to spend some time there. But before we do, that was probably— would you say that was one of the early moments where you had exposure to the Guard and their work there in supporting the, you know, the recovery of that area?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  13:20
Yeah, Naviere. It took about a week for me to fly back, and we flew the jets back into Shaw, and then we started doing daily hops down to Homestead to be able to get to our houses and start to recover some things. And so down there, helping to support the Guard were guardsmen, and so that was some of my early workings with the National Guard and what they did with the Florida National Guard. Gen. Haas is the adjutant general, and so you so you know for our National Guard, 435,000 strong. That's spread across the 54 adjutants generals that do amazing things, like right now, who is the adjutant general for Florida. They do all kind of things there to prep for hurricanes and disasters and wildfires and support their communities. And so to see that in action was really powerful. And the integration between Air and Army as well, the National Guard is joined by its very being as we came into existence a long time ago.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  14:18
So a little seed maybe was planted for your future that you hadn’t quite realized yet, because as you were in the F-16, you know, and we think about, you know, single seater, you know, you’re an individual excellent warfighter. I’m curious, when did the transition become— and obviously you never operate alone. You’re part of a team. But the mentality or maybe the experiences of focusing from a team perspective. When did you see that kind of envelop more in your life from being an F-16 pilot?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  14:50
Well, thanks. As we look at, you know, playing basketball, I go all the way back to those days, right? So it starts there, but the risk is different when you get to a fighter unit, in the combat and the things that are on the line once you get into the military. And certainly as a wingman, you’re trying to be the best F-16 pilot that you can, and then you become a flight lead, and then you start going like, “Hey, I got to take care of my wingman.” And then I have to make sure that we’re defending and protecting the bases that we’re operating out of. So all the guardsmen, but then you also in soldiers and airmen, you think about the whole joint team. Just as the F-16, as you go into a four-shot flight lead and then a package commander down the road, now you’re thinking about integrating all the pieces and parts. If you think about Absolute Resolve, right? You’re integrating subsea to space. All the joint services, all the team, like nobody else in the world can do. And I saw early on that it was that integration with our allies and partners, with the full joint team, with our interagency partners, with three-letter agencies. When those things all come together, that makes our military the best military on the planet.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  16:02
Absolutely, and I think about all of the support roles that go into making that happen too and I know that you come across those as well. Maybe you can share a little bit of time, general, because many of our listeners and viewers as they embark on their leadership journeys they make pivot decisions and so you’re an F-16 pilot. You know you're leading amazing things in our Air Force. What made you go into the Guard? What was the decision point in time that brought you that way?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  16:31
So Naviere, let me take this back just a little bit. So as I go to the Academy and I think about tough times don’t last, tough people do, right? And then I talk about, hey, you got to do the best you can between breakfast to lunch, at lunch to dinner, one meal at a time, and I take those things and I learned them from my dad, and then I learned them here at the Academy, then I learned them in my first squadron, and then those things continue to go forward. And so as I looked at the time when I was coming up on my initial commitment after pilot training, I saw an opportunity to do multiple things, right? To continue flying fighters and continue doing combat missions in the National Guard. I saw an opportunity to get a little bit closer to my family as my dad and my mom were growing a little bit older, and I saw incredible opportunity to also fly within airlines and fly bigger planes because I flew sail planes here at the Academy. I flew J-3 Cubs. I flew fighters. So I just love aviation. So it was about maximizing all those things together and bringing the civilian skill sets and then bringing that into the fighter cockpit as well. And so those were things that really enticed me about being able to serve in another capacity. And so at that time, I joined the 180th Fighter Wing and went from being a flight commander to a squadron commander, a vice wing commander and up to wing commander. And so I just loved my time in all that — in active duty, but also in the Guard.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:59
Well, it really aligns with your SOPs with service. And I think about when people are making those decisions, it’s never done in a silo in a box. There’s probably a lot of people that help you make that decision, and so you know I think retaining talent is one of the things we always want to do, especially here at the Academy when we are spending so much time in creating these leaders of character and warfighters. What’s something that you might share with someone as they’re exploring, “Do I go Guard? Do I go Reserve? Do I even consider keeping the uniform on when I'm looking at a civilian career?”
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  18:26
So for me, 37 years of service, I always say keep the uniform on. Continue serving. Find ways to continue serving your nation, and you can do that so many different ways. National Guard is one way to do that, right? And so if you think about any — whether you’re a cyber operator or whether you're a pilot or whether you’re a civil engineer — all those expertise are needed in the National Guard as well. But they also let you do the civilian skill set. I talk about Security Force Squadron in the Guard is not just made up of security defenders. In the Guard, it’s probably 70 different skill sets because they bring their skill sets right into the organization. So in that unit of 88 Security Force members, you probably have five schoolteachers, you have two plumbers, you have an electrician, you have somebody owns their own cyber business. I had a senior master sergeant in the wing that owned his own company that wrote banking code for major credit card companies and for other nations’ banking systems, and so you bring all that skill sets together, and it is just a force multiplier. And so when I go overseas and I’m talking to the combat commanders over there, or talking to a command, they really see how those extra skill sets, and even here in the homeland, they really bring that secret sauce, that special sauce that the Guard can help bring to any organization, and help add that interagency partner, the civilian skill sets and that dual-role mission, local to global partnerships.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  19:58
Gosh, I’m really glad that you shared all that, Chief. Because you know, I think when as leaders we always want to continue to grow and personal growth, and so when you just talked about bringing all those different skills and experiences into a Guard unit, there’s growth that's happening there, and that’s real powerful, I think, consideration for those that are on that you know transition bubble.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  20:17
So I just did an exercise out at Cyber Shield, 1,000 participants, 44 states and territories participated. They brought 23 of their partnered nations with them, right? And as I'm talking to them, the leader of the op for, you know, the Red Forces that is going to cause problems for those trying to defend the networks, was a first lieutenant in the Army. He had been enlisted before, so he was, you know, probably about 30. But as I was talking to him, he was like, “Sir, these are all the things that I’m going to do to make it really tough on the blue side.” And it was really over-the-top incredible. But the major general that was next to me nudged me and said, “He’s my boss in the civilian sector.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  21:04
Wow!
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  21:04
So those skill sets that that come together that the National Guard can help bring not only in uniform but out of uniform and then merge those together is a force multiplier for our nation.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  21:17
What an incredible story! And I’m thinking about that first lieutenant. How do you help champion those individual contributors when they’re doing those amazing things in in your unit? When you’re 435,000 strong and you’re at the at the top, how do you help champion them at the individual and tactical levels?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  21:35
Well, first thing I tell everybody, active, Guard, Reserve, tell your story because they’re all amazing. And so, as you tell your story, it helps everybody to understand how we can integrate those skills and capability, and it builds trust, right? As we talk about leadership, trust, and you can't surge it. And with these partnerships that are global, with these partnerships that are local, with what we do across the inner services, the joint force, so that we're interoperable, we’re integrated, so that when our nation needs us at that one second, we’re all ready to go at that time in that place that nobody else can do. And it’s that trust, and it’s those relationships that we build along the way that we need to keep nurturing and tell our story, so that they understand what roles and what skill sets you bring to the fight?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  22:22
Can you talk a little bit more about trust? And I’m thinking about trust at different levels. When we’re face to face across the table, I think it’s much easier. You’re seeing me. We’re working together to establish that trust and credibility. But as the you know the work is important and the things that are happening, but we get further apart, how do you still build that trust and credibility? I’m thinking as our leaders, you know, think about this in their work lives.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  22:43
So multiple different ways. As a wing commander, I would always call them walkabouts. I would walk about the wing either clockwise or counterclockwise. And then I would go see people, right? Because as you’re going to— and sometimes I’ll do an email, but only once, and then I’m going to go see you because on the way to see you, I get to pass three or four more airmen or soldiers, and I get to say hello. I get to ask them about their story. I get to ask them how they’re doing, and I can see how the unit’s doing, right? One, for instance, I’m walking there, and I go to ammo section over at Toledo, and I walk into their, you know, locker room and stuff where they have all their equipment that they’re going back and forth with, and their old lockers. The floors dirty. They were kind of proud of it at the time. But as I continued my walk around, I went over to CE and I said, “Hey,” to the CE team, I was like, “How can we get some self-help dollars over to Ammo so that we can help get them some new lockers and get them the place that they need to be able to operate out of?” They got a couple-thousand dollars. Two weeks later, I walked back and it was like they had new lockers up. They had the floor painted. They had their symbol up. They had white rocks right outside. They had a little grill that they would grill out for lunch. They were incredibly proud. But it’s that walk around that you get to see our airmen, our soldiers, our service members, and really see what their problem sets are, and then how do we solve those? There's a book out there I just put on my reading list out to the whole National Guard. It's called Legacy. It's about the New Zealand rugby team that is highest percentage of winning. It’s about legacy. It’s about championships. It’s about trust. It’s about building that cohesiveness of the team. One of the things in there it talks about is sweep the sheds. It’s like everybody has to get out there and do the work together. So, I feel like if our airmen or soldiers are doing it, I want to do it. Like today, I wanted to jump out of a plane. The weather didn’t cooperate today, but I recently went up to Vermont and welcomed them home, the 158th. They did amazing things in Absolute Resolve, and then they got turned and they went immediately over to Epic Fury and were in the early days of that operation and continued to be until they just returned home. But one of the things I want to do as I was welcoming them off the plane was I saw our baggage details, and so I had to go over and help the baggage details. So I got to throw some bags with our airmen out there. They’re just amazing, and when you see what they do and the passion that they have, just gets you excited about serving.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  25:16
Well, not only did you get your workout in, sir, but what a way to help people feel pride, and you know they got to show you what they do. And I think about that unit that painted the floors with $2,000. Like, how much do exponentially built that pride and their work ethic? Probably even just you know more because they were like, “Wow, I'm really— I'm excited about this, and I’m happy to share it.”
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  25:37
Naviere, can I give you one more example?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  25:16
Please do. Yes.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  25:40
I’m over at a at a base over in the CENTCOM theater. Nothing but brown desert, large concrete things that our jets are sitting in between on the bunkers. And I was a squadron commander at the time, and I hadn’t been on the night shift for about a week, so I wanted to go see the night shift. So set my alarm clock, got up at 3 in the morning, and I went out to see him. And one of the jets came back; it had a little nick in one of the blades, so they had to change the motor out. And these folks at 110 degrees at night are swapping out a motor, which normally probably takes eight hours, and they’re doing it in three or four hours
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  26:20
Under the cover of darkness, too.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  26:22
Under the cover of darkness, they have lights there, obviously. But sitting over on the side for about 15 minutes, taking a quick rest break, was Tech Sgt. Mike Green. So his call sign was Shrek there. Super awesome individual.  
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  26:33
I love that call sign.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  25:34
But that gives you kind of an idea of him, right? And so I went over and sat down next to him, and he was a little bit melancholy. I was like, “Hey, Shrek, what’s up?” He’s like, "I just talked to my wife. She just had a baby. We just had our baby.” Yeah. So it was so cool to see him in that moment. Take 15 minutes, but then he jumped right back on, and he was, you know, turning out the engine. And the next day, I talked to the maintenance. That crew took off, and every time I got into a jet that has been maintained by the United States Air Force or our National Guard, I’ve never worried about the maintenance. It’s that trust that we build every day.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  27:14
That trust is so important, and it goes beyond just the military members serving. It’s part of their family. And I think about your family and the role that they’ve played in support of your efforts as you lead others. Can we talk a little bit about how when leaders are in positions where maybe they take them away from home a lot, or, you know, they just they can’t physically be present and all the things they'd like to be? What would you share from a perspective of you know how you navigate that to really, you know, measure in moments. What would you say to some of them?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  27:45
So one of the things, if you look at our priorities for the National Guard, is warfighters and families, right? I married Shannon three days after graduating from the United States Air Force Academy, and we now have five kids, and in a couple weeks we'll have our seventh grandchild.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  28:03
Congratulations!
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus 28:04
And so we're super happy. He’s a 2016 grad.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  28:08
Yes.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  28:09
So we’re very excited for them. But it's about just you know they serve with us all the time, and so it's about that communication back and forth, which has gotten better over time. When you’re away, you can communicate a little bit better, but you're still away. You're away for birthdays, for graduations, for those things. But my wife loves being. Her dad is a retired master sergeant who was an air traffic controller here at the Air Force Academy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  28:34
Oh my goodness! Yes.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  28:36
You know, he loves telling pilots what to do, so it’s perfect.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  28:40
Rightfully so.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  28:40
And I and I tease him with that. But I’m going to see him here in a couple days. But from that, it’s just making sure we're taking care of our families, right? So they are so critical. As we talk about recruiting a service member, we retain the families, and so we have to make sure that we're focused on getting after, taking care of our warfighters, so that they have the tools, the equipment, the warrior mentality that they need to be able to go out and inflict harm in win our nations’ wars, but come back safely and making sure we’re taking care of our families as well.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  29:11
Well, general, I love talking about self-care because I know you wanted to jump out of the plane today and do some things with the cadets, but I think you might be working out with cadets tomorrow, perhaps even.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  29:20
I am.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  29:21
So we talk about self-care. What else are you doing as someone who takes fitness and health very seriously? What else are you doing kind of in that lane?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  29:30
Well, certainly I do long walks with my wife. But I love hunting, fishing. I ride motorcycles. I play golf, and I like getting out and playing some basketball outside as well.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  29:44
Even though not NBA.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  29:46
I actually played some hoop yesterday. So I still like shooting around, and there’s just nothing better than sports, the outdoors, hiking, climbing, snow skiing when I can, when I’m out in the mountains. So, outdoor stuff and what you get to do with nature and with your fellow friends is part of that social piece, right, to be able to strengthen, but it’s also on the physical as well. So you're getting dual role, and then the spiritual comes in because of how beautiful it is. And then if you read a couple things or listen to a podcast along the way, you get that academic or mental as well. I try hard to get seven hours of sleep every night. I try to get PT in every day, one way or another. I try to make sure that I’m eating smart too, right? Now, I have splurge days, but I’m trying to watch out— you know, how much fat I’m taking in, how much protein I’m taking in, making sure I’m getting in enough liquids, and really taking care of my body. Because if I don’t take care of myself, I can’t take care of 435,000 guardsmen and the 54 adjutant generals that that are doing amazing work out there. I will say with that, as you think about taking care of your body, it’s trying to get 1% better every day. I've talked about that. There's a book out there by James Clear called Atomic Habits. Get 1% better every day, right? Breakfast to lunch, lunch to dinner. So I do that, right? And then when I think about that, I’m thinking a couple different things. So as I look at just what our service members hear all the time is how do I get a little bit better at mentally? How do I get a little bit better physically, socially and then spiritually? How do I have each of those pillars and get a little bit stronger? And then for our priorities for the National Guard, warfighters and families, No. 1. How do I get a little bit better at being a warfighter today? And how do how do we take care of our families better? And then it’s RPM — revolutions per minute, right? That stands for readiness, partnerships and modernization. How do I get a little bit better at readiness so when I’m called upon, I’m ready to go for not only my unit but for the nation. And how do I get a little bit better at partnerships, whether it’s with the local community or whether it’s with our Air Force or Navy, the integration interoperability, or whether it’s with other agencies within the homeland, or whether it’s with these incredible partners that we have around the world. How do we mash those all together and get stronger each day?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  32:15
So when I think about getting 1% better, what would be an example of — and pick an area because there’s different ways we could approach this — but I’m curious, like, how do you peel that back one more layer and say, this is what I’m doing to get better 1% more? Like, what is it? A process you’re looking at? Is it—
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  32:32
Well, I take it through both of those two lenses, right? The mental, physical, social and spiritual. Am I staying, you know, faithful and spiritually fit? Am I…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  32:40
A check-in.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  32:41
Yeah, check-ins.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  32:42
I love that. OK.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  32:43
With my family, right? Faith, family and freedom. Am I really— am I calling my kids? Am I talking to my mom? Am I— my dad passed away about a year ago, and so it’ll be a year on 6 October. And so, you know, it’s about checking in, checking in with friends, right? But also checking in on my physical fitness and my mental stuff. Well, the mental thing I’m always trying to get a little bit of readers reading going. So leaders are readers, and so, like I said, I just put out two books to my team to get after reading. One is Legacy, and one is Endurance, which is about Ernest Shackleton. Legacy is about building elite teams, right? That continue on and have that legacy go on and on. So you’re not just building it for you as a leader; you’re building it so it outlasts you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  33:34
That's right. That’s the endurance.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  33:35
That’s right. And then on the endurance side, that’s Ernest Shackleton. As soon as he gets on the ice in 1915, down in Antarctica, the ice breaks his ship in two, and so his 23 members are left on the ice. And it’s about how you lead in adversity. Trust, taking care of your people, morale and how you work through things. Keep moving forward when things are against you. So those are books that I’m asking my team to read to help me get 1% better every day and help our team get 1% better every day.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  34:05
Wow, and I feel like those themes actually go hand in hand when you think about you know it covers quite a bit of how you can lead. Thank you for sharing that example. I think the check-in is really relevant. Taking a moment to check in, am I doing these things? And then to your point, it might be like, “No, I need to pick up the phone and call,” right? It’s— and then then you actually have done something. We’ve spent a little bit of time talking about different acronyms, and I want to go back to the SOPs: service, optimist — being optimistic or optimism — and passion. I think you know two of them feel very clear to me. Can we spend a little time talking about passion? Do you mind saying why did, does passion make your SOPs?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  34:44
OK, so as I was getting ready to take command of the Air National Guard Readiness Center, I got the call from my boss, the chief at the time, and I was starting to create my 30, 60, 90 plan for when I become the commander there — how I institute that. And certainly it's about vision, mission, priorities. How you start setting up the battle rhythm and how you start setting up the communication. Is the C2 right? Do you have the people in the right places? All those things that you do as a commander coming into a new organization. But I was also thinking like, “Hey, somebody’s going to ask me, like, ‘Hey, what’s your leadership style?’ And then I’d say service mentor leader.” But then what? How do you go from there? So I was thinking about, “Hey, our core values that we learn here at the Air Force Academy, when those came to be, they were genius, right? Integrity first, service before self, excellence in all that we do, right? And then in interviews, I would always get asked like, “Hey, what’s your most important, you know, core value?” And they’re all important, right? And so a lot of times I use integrity because you have to have integrity. But then I went back to service. If I have service and I’m serving other people, I’m serving the mission, I’m serving my community, I'm serving my wingmen, I’m serving the warriors I’m around, I'm serving my family. Then I have to do it with integrity, and I have to do it with excellence. So I went to service, and I was like, “Hey, if I’m doing that right, the other two will fall into place, or have to fall into place.” And then I went into optimism from my dad. It was like, “Hey, it’s not a problem. It’s an opportunity.” It’s optimism. It’s not positivity. It’s not just going around going like, “Hey, right.” It’s about optimism. It’s like, we can together solve this problem. I was at the— I told you about becoming the Readiness Center commander. So it works out really important here because, like, Day 2 on the job as I became the Air National Guard Readiness Center commander, $11 billion budget, 90 wings. They came to me and said, “We just lost our recruiting contract.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:45
Oh, wow!
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  36:45
And I was like, “Sir, we probably won’t be able to make end strength. That’s really critical for us, and we don’t think we can have it up for like nine months.” And I just remember in this small group, I kind of laughed and chuckled a little bit, and I was like—
 
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:59
They’re probably like, “Why is he laughing and chuckling?”
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  37:00
I’m like, “We’re the Air National Guard. Yeah, we have expertise. We can figure this out. I’ll bet we can have the website up by noon.” They had it up by 11 o’clock.
 
Col.Naviere Walkewicz  37:09
Ah, wonderful. Yes.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  37:11
And so it’s that optimism. It’s just that hope, that energy that you bring in, and that comes that energy, which is the passion. It’s that good energy that you bring in every day. So, in the morning, I wake up, you know, with five unsolvable problems that we got to work through, right? And then I use that systematic approach: breakfast to lunch, lunch to dinner. And then with that optimism and that service focus, that passion is that energy. I’m putting on my boots, going like, “Man, I get to serve 435,000 guardsmen today. Twenty percent of the joint force is in the National Guard. I get to serve the joint force today. I get to serve the one Army, the one Air Force. I get to serve 54 adjutant generals that are there working for their governors.” And you know, every day a crisis is happening somewhere, right? Whether it’s somebody needs saving, or whether it's a wildfire breaks out. We recently had one in Arkansas, and guardsmen were on it, bulldozing around it to protect it, bringing in water buckets and helicopters to put the fire out. And it was critical infrastructure for a nation that was really under duress and stress. And it was the National Guard that helped bring that in. So, and those guardsmen got up that morning, and they might have been going to work, but they got the call that they need to come in and put out a fire for our nation. And they do it with service, optimism and passion.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  38:34
Chief, I love the language you use. You said, “I get to…” and I think that perspective is powerful in itself. And so, when I think about what you experience today, and, you know, the opportunities that you get to face. What would you share with young Steven Nordhaus that graduated in 1989 that, you know, today, that you would say, “I would love for you to know this now?”
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  38:58
So it’s being part of a great team, right? The Department of War, part of, you know, the service, and now I have an Army email address, so I’m purple, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  39:11
Yes, you are. That’s right.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  39:13
So 330,000 guardsmen on the Army National Guard side, 106,000 on the Air National Guard side, and as I think about that team, it’s working together and it’s building that trust. And so when I go back to being a high school ball player on a basketball team of five that I was worried about, now it’s pulling all those things together. And it’s about the vision, mission and priorities. The vision for the National Guard being elite and lethal warfighting and response force — stronger together, stronger tomorrow. The stronger together you get, I’ve been talking about that, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  39:46
That’s right.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  39:46
Because we have to integrate, we got to trust, we got to work together. But it’s stronger tomorrow. What’s one thing we never get to? We never get to tomorrow. And so we got to be 1% better tomorrow as well. And how do we do that? And it really comes from I go all. The way up to the Department of War, the secretary lists out his priorities: rebuild the military, reestablish deterrence, and as you look at also the pieces and parts there for lethality, build accountability, readiness, based off of merit and standards, and having those high standards. And then we take those down into that warfighters and families, readiness partnerships, and modernization, and so we just build a systematic system that we're constantly working to get better at, so that we can be elite and lethal. We can be the shield and the sword for our nation. We can be that sentry and avenger that we talk about in our Airman's Creed.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  40:37
That’s an important role that we need to make sure that we are focused on, and I think having that mentality, knowing that today and sharing that with young you and others that are aspiring, I think that’s really important for us to kind of, you know, take internally. I’m curious because not everyone gets the opportunity to earn four stars and serve at such high levels. What might surprise leaders maybe that are earlier in their careers, that you might say, “I’m kind of like you in this way.”? Like, what might you share with them?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  41:09
Well, I know I’m not a weapon school grad, but one of the things from there is humble, approachable, credible, and I think that’s how we live our life every day. Be humble, be approachable, be credible, be focused on those things that make a difference, and knowing that every one of our individuals that we get to serve with today wakes up with different problem sets within their families, has different things that they’re trying to overcome in their jobs, and how do we work together to do that? So I just think it’s about, you know, building that relationship. And when you walk by somebody in the hallway, this academy taught me a lot because when you walk the hallway as a dooley, as a fourth-class cadet, we greet everybody, and I do the same thing in the Pentagon.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  41:53
That’s smart!
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  41:54
Because I’m like, you know, run into amazing people, and I always want to learn from everybody. So it’s about humanizing every event and making sure that we know that this is a human endeavor that gets after doing those things from you know rebuilding and reestablishing these things that our nation has asked us to do.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  42:15
Well, that makes a lot of sense. What a great lesson for someone that’s, you know, a first step is just introducing yourself and saying hello. What might be another leadership lesson that you’ve carried through your life that you might share with someone to do this every day to be a better leader, or do this now so you're a better leader later? Is there anything else you would add?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  42:33
I go back to the tough times don’t last. Tough people do. So just recognize that hey, whatever challenge you have, bring the team in, work at it. It’s not going to be easy, but you'll work through it, right? Keep moving forward. Keep finding ways to bring other teammates in and find ways to take that optimism and that passion to get to the next level. And then when you look back over your each of your times, you see that you pass through those hurdles, and if you look back, you’re grateful for the hurdles that you worked through with your faith, with your family, and with your teammates as freedom to be able to overcome anything that gets put in your way. Winston Churchill had the thing back in World War II: “Never, never, never give up.” Right? So it was about you know just staying after it with that tenacity.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  43:24
Well, incredible words, Chief. Is there anything that we didn’t talk about today that you would love to leave with our listeners and viewers?
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  43:31
Well, there’s one story that— it’s in the book Legacy that I recently, you know, as I sent it out. I read it about four years ago, and it’s a J.P. Morgan story. And so it talks about back in J.P. Morgan’s time, he was walking somewhere, and somebody brought forward an envelope, and on the front of the envelope it said “Keys to Guaranteed Success.” So J.P. Morgan took it, and he said, “If I like what’s in here, I’ll give you $25,000.” And he opened it up and he read it, and it said, “Make a list of things that you need to do today, and do them.” And he paid him $25,000.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  44:14
That could not be more true, right there. Boom. Well, that’s a great lesson in itself. That’s right. Make a list and get it done. I think that’s a wonderful lesson. Well, Chief, this has been an incredible conversation. Some of the things that really stood out incredibly well to me: the SOPs, service, optimism, and I love how you clarified being optimistic is getting to finding a way to yes and solving things, but it's not positivity where it's just rah rah, and then passion bringing the energy. I also really loved how the chief talked about being humble and approachable. Incredible, and I can share sitting across the table from a four-star general that he’s done that today and made me feel very comfortable in the way that I can learn from him and his leadership lessons throughout the years. And I think, Chief, also I really appreciate that you talked about the service member and their families, because we never do any of this alone. So when I think about your leadership lessons today, sir, we're really grateful for all of our listeners and viewers online. If you are in your leadership journey, this is certainly one you don’t want to miss. But you should also share it with others because there are so many incredible nuggets that the chief has shared today. It’s been a pleasure, general. Thank you very much.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  45:20
Well, thank you, Naviere, and I want to say thank you to all of our servicemembers serving around the world in harm’s way. We got them in our thoughts and prayers all the time, and we appreciate what they do. And we look forward to continuing to move this military forward with the warrior ethos and the warrior mindset that we have.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  45:39
This has been Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for joining us, and I’m Naviere Walkewicz. We’ll see you next time. Thank you, sir.
 
Gen. Steven Nordhaus  45:45
Thank you.
 
KEYWORDSGeneral Stephen Nordhaus, Chief of the National Guard Bureau, National Guard leadership, military leadership lessons, Air Force Academy graduate, F-16 fighter pilot, National Guard service, military mentorship, leadership development, building trust in teams, service optimism and passion, resilience after Hurricane Andrew, civilian skills in the National Guard, warfighters and families, military self-care, continuous improvement, National Guard community partnerships.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 

Great leadership starts with understanding your people. 
 SUMMARY   For Col. (Ret.) DeAnna Franks ’99, effective mentorship means listening first, building trust, and taking time to understand each person’s goals and challenges.   DEANNA’'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 
Build genuine connections — Take time to learn about the people you work with, because strong relationships help teams work together and endure. 
Lead with the person’s needs in mind — Understand someone’s circumstances before offering guidance so your advice is relevant and useful. 
Listen before advising — Hear what someone is facing, acknowledge it, and then offer practical options rather than a rigid path. 
Seek near-peer mentors — Learn from people who have recently walked a path you hope to follow, while also drawing on senior leaders for broader guidance. 
Stay open to feedback — Junior colleagues can offer valuable perspective, and accepting it helps leaders correct course and set a good example. 
Communicate your goals — Sharing your plans with your leaders can help them advocate for you and identify opportunities. 
Define “best” by fit, not prestige — A role that suits your strengths and lets you contribute to the team may be a better choice than the most prestigious option. 
Treat setbacks as opportunities to persist — A rejection may not be the end of the path; asking again or finding another route can open new possibilities. 
Be vulnerable and human — Appropriate personal openness can help others feel understood and make leadership messages more relatable. 
Take it day by day — Focus on the next manageable step instead of letting distant goals overwhelm you. 
  
CHAPTERS  
00:00:00 — Introduction and Deanna Franks’s Air Force Academy legacy 
00:04:32 — Preparing for the Academy and facing admission challenges 
00:08:59 — Persisting after rejection and finding an opportunity through swimming 
00:13:49 — Building connections and bringing a team-first mindset to leadership 
00:15:12 — Pilot training and discovering the right fit in C-130 aviation 
00:20:30 — Mentoring pilots and keeping career options open 
00:22:40 — Balancing military service, family, and a transition to the Reserves 
00:27:47 — Pentagon networking and leading at the Advanced Airlift Tactics Training Center 
00:32:09 — Returning to the Academy as an AOC and building a support network 
00:35:12 — Supporting cadets through difficult moments with empathy and vulnerability 
00:42:40 — Mentorship, near-peer guidance, and reverse mentoring 
00:48:47 — Retirement, life after service, and continued community involvement 
00:54:38 — Final reflections and episode close 
ABOUT DEANNABIO
Col. (Ret.) DeAnna Franks ’99 served 26 years in the U.S. Air Force and Air Force Reserve as a C-130 pilot, commander and senior leader. A graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, she began her flying career during the demanding operational years following 9/11, supporting missions across the Middle East. Her career included command assignments, service at the Pentagon and leadership positions at the Academy. Among her assignments, she served as an Air Officer Commanding at USAFA, commanded the Advanced Airlift Tactics Training Center and led the 302nd Operations Group in Colorado. She retired from military service in 2025. 
Throughout her career, Col. Franks developed a deep commitment to mentorship and the development of future leaders. Influenced by her father’'s Air Force service, the coaches and commanders who invested in her potential, and her experiences balancing military leadership with motherhood, she came to view leadership as an opportunity to recognize, encourage and develop others. A passionate advocate for near-peer mentorship, Col. Franks believes meaningful leadership relationships are built on trust, listening and shared experience. Her approach reflects a conviction that one of a leader’'s most lasting contributions is the success of the people they inspire and mentor. 
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS
Col. (Ret.) DeAnna Franks ’99, Guest  |  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz  0:00
Sometimes the most important person in your leadership journey isn’t the one in your chain of command. Instead, it may be someone who sees something in you that you haven’t yet discovered yourself. For Col. (Ret.) DeAnna Franks, Class of ’99, mentors changed the direction of her life and taught her how to change the lives of others. I’m Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99 — Long Blue Leadership starts now. Well, today we are joined by DeAnna Franks, Class of ’99. Gold Will Shine.
 
Col. (Ret.) DeAnna Franks 0:31
Gold Will Shine, girl. That’s right.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:33
This is an unprecedented Long Blue Leadership because this is the first time you have freshman roommates across the table from each other. But you know, DeAnna, before you were flying, before you were in command roles, we were roommates together at the Academy, and so really excited to take this journey with you on your, you know, the entire leadership journey that you experienced. And so, if you’re OK with it, let’s just jump right in.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  0:56
Oh yes, definitely. It’s a pleasure to be here with you, Naviere. I wouldn’t want to be sitting across the table from anybody else in order to have a chat and discuss. But really, I’ve been just honored to be a part of what our journey was when it started back in the summer of ’95.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:10
Oh my goodness!
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  1:11
And then through those first years of us, and it was just about surviving, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:15
Right.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks 1:15  
And look at us now.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:17
Look at us now. We went from surviving; we’re thriving now.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks 1:20  
That’s right.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:20
But let’s go back even further because I want to start— you have legacy here at the Academy, right? Your dad, Dean Haylett, ’73 graduate. I’m sorry, I know he’s passed, but I love that— and your brother…
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  1:33
Yes.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  1:33
I mean Marshall, also grad, ’02.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  1:36
’02, and I have a cousin in 2009 as well.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  1:38
OK, see, I’m still learning. See, you can be freshman roommates and still have things to learn.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  1:42
That’s right. I’m trying to keep up with you, but you know you’ve got the legacy for sure.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  1:47
That’s right. But you came to the Academy because you wanted to follow in your father’s footsteps. Maybe let’s start there a little bit. Tell me about your dad and that imprint on you.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  1:56
Yeah, I definitely grew up as the Air Force kid, you know, and I just I loved living outside of March Air Force Base, Norton Air Force Base when I was young, growing up, and so always having the planes flying overhead. I think really an impact happened— probably I was around seven or eight years old, and I remember Mom and Dad brought my little brother and I up to the Academy. I remember standing on the chapel wall. I had my stuffed little Air Force Falcon that I traveled with for quite a little while, so that was the first, like, touch point of, “Oh, this is the Air Force Academy and pretty neat.” And knowing that my dad was a part of that, I just kind of stuck and hung to that for a while. And then it was when he was stationed in Yokota Air Force Base in Japan — I was seventh through 10th grade. I wasn’t really military inclined at that point, I was still just really involved in athletics and sports, and he was a great cheerleader for me going through that. But it was that 7th-grade year when I would go to the library and pull the catalog for the Air Force Academy off the shelf because there wasn’t anything electronic at that point.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  3:00
All I remember is Dewey Decimal.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  3:01
Right, right, that is true. So pulling the catalog off, and I would go and look at it, and I knew at that time — I was about 12 years old, going on 13 — that I was like, “I think I’m going to work hard, and I’m going to get to the Air Force Academy, just like my dad.” And it wasn’t— it was because I wanted to be like him. I loved watching him in his uniform. I remember asking him from the time I was 2nd and 3rd grade, “Hey, Dad, for Halloween, can you please go get the smallest flight suit you can find so I can wear it for Halloween?” And he did that a couple years in a row. And so I was just, I was in it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  3:38
What was it about it? Was it just seeing him in that role, was it— I mean, it’s interesting to me. Now, did Marshall feel the same way as well? Like, was this just something that you kind of…
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  3:49
I think I grabbed onto it first. I definitely was in for it starting at 12 and 13 years old. And again, it was just watching my dad and him going off to work and being in uniform and coming home and being proud of the work that he did every day, and I appreciated going to the bases with him. Maybe looking around at the airplanes, going to, you know, the family events that happened at the bases, you know, and you see the other airmen and people around. So it wasn’t necessarily that my dad talked directly to me about the Air Force Academy, like, “DeAnna, you need to get ready for this. You need to prepare.” It was more— it was just like this little hint of him around me that really just locked me into it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  4:33
So when you were sure at those teenage years, when it really was like, “Yep, I want to work really hard.” What did that look like for you? I mean, was it just something clicked and you kind of amped up what you were already doing in, you know, in academics and athletics, or did you do a ton of research? Like, what did that look like?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  4:50
Right. I think my first exposure was actually around 9th grade, still at Yokota. We had just gotten the first Junior ROTC detachment in high school. It was actually Army Junior ROTC, but I joined and I was a part, again, getting to stand next to my dad wearing my junior ROTC uniform, and then him wearing his, and then we moved to southern central Florida, where my dad was the ROTC detachment commander at UCF there, and in that form of high school, I still did Junior ROTC, but it was Marine Corps Junior ROTC. So the experience to the different services, but it was all about the pride of wearing the uniform, being involved, and I think that’s where it set me up. I wanted to be that well-rounded person. So as you remember, I was a swimmer. I was very athletically involved. I ran cross country, track, water polo swimming and synchronized swimming, and that was that was where I was focused on was my athletics. But I was really involved and excited about clubs too. Student government, national honor society. So being that well-rounded person is what I really enjoyed doing. Needless to say, academics then was a little challenging. I did my best. I had pretty good grades I feel, like, going through high school, but I didn’t have very good SAT and ACT scores, and that’s where my challenges really start of me saying, “Am I going to be able to qualify to go to the Air Force Academy?” I took those SAT and ACT tests probably six times.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  6:25
Wow!
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  6:25
I was just trying to combine that lowest score with that lowest, you know, the highest English…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  6:32
Yep, the low one’s out.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  6:33
And still, I think barely was getting there.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  6:36
Right.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  6:37
But going through that time, I kept just trying to improve it and work on the scores, and that took me to going to, you know, the interview for the boarding to admissions for the Air Force Academy, and I knew my dad was a legacy, 1973, and I, you know, I wrote all that out. I talked about it, the pride that I had in following in his footsteps, and I still remember at that end of that interview of the board, one of the board members came over and said, “DeAnna, we see really great potential in you, and we love your heritage and legacy, but these test scores— you know, what’s going on?” And I said, “Yeah, I know. I’m trying. I’m working really hard.” And at that point, I was young, 17, naive. I didn’t know anything about the Prep School, and that was the first time someone had mentioned, well, maybe you should think about going to the Prep School. Again, young, naive, hadn’t learned enough, and I said, “No, I want to go to the Air Force Academy.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  7:33
Right, you’re like, “That wasn’t the plan,” and now they’re like, you know, insert another school before the Air Force Academy.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  7:38
Exactly, and of course we both know now the foundation that can be provided at the Prep School.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  7:44
I might have done better at the Academy had I gone to the Prep School. I would be honest.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  7:47
I full-heartedly agree. I would be the same way. But at that time, as young as we were, I just didn’t see that that was the option or the path that I was planning to go to. And so I think leaving that interview, all they heard was no, and so shortly thereafter, I got that thin letter in the mail.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  8:06
But hold on, hold on, hold on. Because you have been someone who was used to success, right? So like athletically, you talked about all that, right? You had to work really hard academically.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  8:16
Right.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  8:17
But so you’re saying at the— in the application process, you got the, “We’re sorry.”
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  8:23
Oh yes, I remember. I think it was around that December timeframe, and I got the, “I’m sorry—” letter, but I had already started to pursue a little bit on the side of the recruiting for the women’s swim team. But that wasn’t necessarily my primary. I was trying to get into the Academy on my own, you know, and I still felt like that little bit of connection there is what, in the end, became a little bit of my saving grace to get me to the Academy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  8:54
So, you got the rejection letter, but the story wasn’t done there.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  8:58
Correct. Correct.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  9:00
Let’s talk about that a little bit because, you know, sometimes when we get that rejection we just kind of like, “All right, well…” Move on. Right?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  9:07
Very true.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  9:08
And so you didn’t opt to take that kind of perspective. What— and you mentioned that you kind of had been working another angle. I guess my question to you might be, you know, when do you know that there’s something that could possibly be, you know, a positive outcome from this negative situation. Like, what helped you to pursue that and to keep that positive mindset? Because some people might be like, “Well, I guess I’ll go do something else.”
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  9:36
Right. I did look at, you know, maybe attending other colleges under Air Force ROTC scholarships, especially because my dad was still working as ROTC detachment commander, so he gave me great insight on that. But I knew in my heart I really wanted to go to the Air Force Academy, and I was just privileged to reach out one more time, and that one more time was to the swim coach, Coach Casey Converse, during that time period, and being invited for a recruiting trip January of 1995. So I was a little bit late to the game, but coming out to the Academy and visiting, and that became that new opportunity for me that I didn’t totally give up on with that first no. But it was heartbreaking.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  10:24
I don’t think I knew that, Dee. I didn’t know that about you, because, you know, I will say as being a roommate of yours, it looked to me like you had everything together. Like I had no idea that you had that struggle, and so I think that’s such a great lesson for anyone in life. You know, you have a path, you have a plan, you get the no. What are you going to do with that? And I love how you said, “I just asked one more time,” you know? I think you didn’t give up on yourself, so that’s pretty cool. You know, you talked about Coach Casey Converse being someone that, you know, saw potential in you and gave you that chance. Let’s talk about what you saw from him as in a leadership kind of lens, and maybe what you brought from that at the Academy.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks 11:09
Right. So again, going on that recruiting trip in late January, which, you know, coming to the Academy in January is you’re probably bundled up, and you’re seeing the Academy with all the snow and these harsh winds around. And I’m coming from Florida, so I don’t know if my mom was as excited for the visit. But it was outstanding to be— like, I remember being in the pool, I remember doing the recruiting trip, but more importantly, when I did get that what I think is the last ticket from Coach Casey Converse as a recruit, because we had a pretty strong recruiting year for the Class of ’99 coming in as either males or female swimmers, but I knew I didn’t really have the times. I was not an Olympian-prepared swimmer. I was a well-rounded swimmer. But coming out of Florida, it was very challenging to meet the even state time requirements and others, but I just continued to pursue it. And I think coach saw in me, and I’m hoping it was maybe at the recruiting time, that I was invested in the team. I was invested in what the Academy can give for you. I was prepared and ready to be the best cheerleader, even on the side of the pool deck, because I know I wasn’t— one of our fellow classmates who was also recruited in that year, Connie Cann (Holen), she was the Olympian. She was an outstanding, awesome swimmer. I was the “I’ll-get-you-your-fourth-place-so-we-can-get-one-more-point.” And I think we worked well together in that way. And it says that even after the four years at the Academy in our large recruiting class that we had of ’99, in the end we were the two last swimmers that stayed all four years.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  12:51
Wow!
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  12:52
And so I really appreciate that, that, you know, Connie she was out there swimming her heart out and she was going to the real big meets. Yes, but I could be the team leader as well on the side with the rest of our athletes that were coming in. I think that’s the one of the biggest things I value out of that team, and it shows too, especially in the world of Coach Casey Converse, when all the swimmers come back after they’ve graduated and go on. Usually, they come back to the pool. I know we have our typical reunions, but the primary is to come and see the pool again, see Coach Casey Converse, give him a hug, and he’s always asking like, “What are you doing now? How are things going?” And so, just the way he loved his swimming family was another reason why we probably all worked so hard in those years in the pool. And again, that balance of swimming with everything else at the Academy was so needed.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  13:48
Yeah, for sure. Well, I’m curious in, you know— and major kudos to him for every time you come back, he’s asking those questions like, “What are you doing now? How are things going?” You know? I’m curious how that translated into your leadership style. We’re going to bounce around a bit, but, you know, you have had the opportunity to lead many men and women in different ways. Where did you see that kind of mentality that he shared, and, like, that family — kind of taking care of your people? Where did that show up for you? Like, when did that actually, like, solidify in you?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  14:19
Right. I think that example for Casey is another way that you can say throughout my career and others is just being able to take time out for just a moment for the hello, for the connection, and knowing always — which is something I know we’ll talk about later with my cadets eventually when I was in AOC here — that I said, “Just remember: You’re going to continue to always pass these people that you work with side by side, even if it’s here at the Academy or in the halls of the Pentagon or anywhere else. You will pass them in the hallways. You never want to burn your bridge with anybody because you will be working with them again, whether it’s in combat, whether it is, you know, at the cubicle desk. Wherever it is. So continue to engage, get to know who these people are and work hard with them together.” So just continuing to work on the connection is the most important part.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  15:12
Oh, that’s fantastic. Well, let’s talk about your career a little bit. I think— you know, you’ve had some time on the active side, of course, also in the Reserve, and so I think there’s a lot of decisions that come into making that. Like, is, you know, on an active-duty path, there’s a trajectory, and some people don’t even explore the Reserve or the Guard. And so I’m curious to you, like, take us through kind of that decision making on your own, and I’d love to pull some of the nuggets as to you know why that worked out for you.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  15:43
Yeah. Well, as you know, after we graduated in ’99 and threw our caps up in the air, and we all went our ways to whatever our technical school was that we need to do. Mine was onto pilot training, which again, just thankful that I had that opportunity to do that. You know, we were at a time at the school where we had already gone through the up-and-down flux of the number of pilot slots that people can get, and I know we had heard of, like, the Class of ’94, ’95, ’96 that had a limited number of pilot slots. We, in our time, the uptick was happening, and I remember, I didn’t necessarily know when I came to the Academy I wanted to go fly and be a pilot again. I just wanted to be like my dad. I wanted to be an Air Force officer and represent. But, you know, we got to our junior, senior year when we had to make those job decisions. And I remember hearing, you know, “If you had great eyesight and you were healthy, you’re probably going to go to pilot training because we need to fill those pilot seats.” And we also were told if you didn’t want to go to pilot training, but you qualified for it. You had to go talk to the commandant, and I was like, “Well, I don’t want to go talk to Gen. Lorenz. Why would I want to go do that? So I guess I’ll go to pilot training.” And then my hope was just, you know, take it day by day, step by step, learn to take off in the airplane and land it safely, and that was the year of pilot training — going through T-37s in Columbus, followed by the setup for my C-130 selection, which was out of Corpus Christi. So I knew at that point in Corpus Christi I was going to go fly C-130 s, which was really exciting for me because, much like the rest of our classmates, we go to pilot training. We’re all very Type A. We’re very competitive.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:21
Are we?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  17:21
Yes. Everybody wants to fly fighters. You know, you want to go to that T-38 program. So I too, in 0101 class at Columbus, I put down T-38s as my first choice, thinking, “Well, maybe I might want to fly the A-10.” I am so thankful. This is probably the start of the mentoring understanding that one of my instructor pilots, while I was still young, had didn’t have pilot wings yet, said, “DeAnna, why don’t you go down the hall and go talk to the C-130 pilot? I think that might fit your mold.” And I was like, “Really? No, I’m still competitive. I want to get T-38s.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:58
Why do you think that was the feedback given to you?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  18:01
I know it’s because he saw the crew concept in me, the teamwork in me, and I really appreciate that because flying on a C-130 crew with five to seven other aviators is one of those ways that you have to be a team in order to do the whole mission, you know? Every crew position has their responsibilities, but if you don’t work together, it doesn’t work out well. And then I also saw it again later in my experience when I was an instructor pilot, and I would go up in an airplane, say if my student got sick that day, and they would say, “Well, DeAnna, go ahead, take the keys to the plane and go fly around in the T-6 or the T-37 by yourself.” I was like, “OK,” but I remember going out to the area that we worked in for T-37s and T-6s, and I was up there all by myself. Guess who was talking to herself the whole time in the plane because there was nobody else to talk to. I had gotten so used to the crew mentality and working through checklists and talking together that when I was flying by myself, I was probably the most uncomfortable. And to the point on those sorties by myself, I was like, “OK, I guess we’ll go home now.” And so I really do appreciate that very first instructor pilot at pilot training who took a little moment to understand how my flying skills were as well, probably, but also knew me as a person and how I would work well with a crew. And that was the first guidance that said, “Maybe you should go check out the C-130 guy down the hall.” And I’m so thankful for that.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  19:37
What a powerful story. And I think you’re right because, you know, sometimes we think you got to be No. 1, No. 1, No. 1. So you got you have to get the best of whatever the best is, and I think sometimes we define best wrong. You know what I mean? I think best is what’s the best fit for us, right? And so I love that story. I didn’t know that, but I can tell having spent time with you, you’re absolutely, you know, really team-minded and all about how do we all succeed together. That’s, I mean, if there was like, if I could put that in, like, quotes, “DeAnna, how do we all succeed together?” You know, quote, end quote.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  20:14
That would be a bit of a mantra. I would agree. Yes.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  20:17
Oh my goodness, that’s amazing. So, have you seen yourself kind of show up in that way for someone? Like, have— do you spend extra time really trying to witness and observe to be able to give that same kind of feedback to others?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  20:31
Yes, and based on that example as well too. So you know, after I went through my pilot training, and yes, I was a C-130 pilot, but then I had the opportunity to go to Enid, Oklahoma, at Vance Air Force Base, and be an instructor pilot in T-37s and T-6s, and that example, I knew I needed to share that with my students. At that time, being married mil-to-mil, so my husband was also flying T-37s and T-6s, and we would go on cross country trips every weekend, of course, with our students. You know, so long 12-hour days. But then often we would go on the same cross-country trips together. I would purposely a lot of times pick the female pilot student in order to mentor and guide as we were flying and really enjoyed the conversations because I will say being mil-to-mil at that time too, it was a way for me to share with them, knowing that maybe they were about to be mil-to-mil.. So what’s your plans? And usually, if a student would say, “Well, I want to fly F-16s and I want to fly F-15s,” I would just simply say, “You know, those are not stationed anywhere together.” Yes, and that would be the start of the conversation. So usually, if I could help instill just a little bit of guidance that says, you know, certain aircraft go well together, others do not, and it’ll be challenging. So just keep that in mind. And then usually, too, even with cadets and others who have that excitement to go to pilot training, and they may already be thinking to themselves, “I’m going to fly F-35s.” I’m like, “That’s awesome! Leave your options open. Maybe don’t be so committed right now, because if anything, you might only be setting yourself up for disappointment if that doesn’t come through.” Almost every aviator that I know, they love the planes they fly.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  22:20
I can say that as someone who talks to a lot of you know aviators, I think that’s actually true.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks 22:25
So I just kind of always caution and guard, especially the students that are going through pilot training, to don’t get too pigeonholed right away in the order, so you can leave the wide doors open and whatever comes your way, you’re going to make the best opportunity of it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  22:41
That’s super powerful. So, Enid, Vance, Oklahoma. So that was still active duty?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  22:47
Yes, correct.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  22:48
So was that about the timeframe in which you made the decision to go into the Reserve?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  22:52
Yes.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  22:52
OK.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  22:53
So I was just nearing— at our time, it was about seven or eight years, I believe, of commitment that was required after going to pilot training. Now it’s 10. And we were nearing that time. Keep in mind, too — I know we haven’t talked about this quite yet — but that I had spent the first three years in my C-130 career right after 9/11. So did five deployments, et cetera, and then...
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  23:17
In dual military.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  23:18
In dual military, married a guy who was flying B-52s in Barksdale, and so going to Vance and going to Enid was a way for us to do our joint spouse.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  23:27
I see.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  23:28
And as much as we both love flying our aircrafts and our platform, Vance Air Force Base and being an instructor pilot really gave us that time to actually be married. Even though we spent over 12 hours a day on the flight line with students, doing those cross-country flights was kind of our weekend getaways while we were still instructing. So I think that was our bridge, but that was also the time when towards the end of that tour we were deciding time to have a kiddo and a baby. And again, going back to how Type A we all are and very much planners. To this day, I remember going into my squadron commander’s office and telling them, “Just for your awareness, about a year from now, planning to be pregnant.” And I think the commander was like, “Oh, too much information. I didn’t need to know that, DeAnna.” I was like, “No, no, no, you do, because I want you to know I’m planning. I want to help and work with you and be a good instructor pilot.” And whether it was the squadron or wherever you needed me. But a year from now, when I’m pregnant and in a T-6, which is an ejection-seat aircraft, that day you find out you’re pregnant, have to stop flying. I said, “Then I will be the best exec officer that you need.” And again, he was a little surprised, but I still remember almost to the day I walked into his office and said, “Remember what I told you about a year ago?” So sure enough, got pregnant and planning at the end of that time to deliver and have Haley, and knowing that, that we were expanding the family, and he was probably going to go back to B-52s. I’d go back to C-130s. Well, how is that going to work? And that was the jumping-off point of availability to plan to go to the Reserve or the Guard — to the point where we even jumped in our T-6s — this is before I got pregnant — jumped in our T-6s and did some IP cross countries and went and visited a few different squadrons on the East Coast because we knew, for our family, it would make the most sense to rush a Reserve or Guard unit on the East Coast, and the family of the Reserve and Guard, as you know, is very strong. And so you do have to do interviews and appointments, and then they have to invite you to the unit. And so we were just hoping that we would be able to find a good fit for us, and that unit ended up being at Pope Air Force Base because it was the unit, the 440th out of Milwaukee, that was getting BRAC’ked and transitioning down to North Carolina. And so again, the planners that we are, as you can see, planning to have a kid, planning to transition to the Reserve, was all for the opportunity to continue to keep the career going in the direction that we were both hoping for.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  26:07
I think that’s really important to kind of just, like, chew on that a little bit because you know I’ve had other conversations where it’s like you know it’s great to have a plan, but you know be ready to you know pivot. I think in your example, I think it’s really important that it sounds like communication had to be really key in in some of that planning. Like you went to communicate. I can’t imagine going to a Boston and be like, “A year from now I’m going to be pregnant.” But you know, the point of like communicating, like I have a desire to continue to be, you know, fully, you know, immersed in our mission in whatever way that looks like. And so I think, would you say that that’s probably one of the most important pieces in that? The communication piece?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  26:45
Communication. I think, you know, often when we talk to other grads or peers and airmen out there, they think, “Oh, I don’t want to show all my cards.” That’s kind of, like, a thought, and I think it’s important to give career pathways to your bosses. Maybe there are some things that you want to just kind of keep tight as future goals, but having that open conversation with your immediate bosses and others, it allows them then to advocate for you. Because if you don’t even start the conversation or be willing to “let’s talk,” then your name may not come up on the radar quite as often as you might want it to when an opportunity comes available to you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  27:28
That’s huge because you’re right. I think a lot of people do hold their cards close for various reasons. Have you ever found in your career when you’ve because you seem to operate in this manner, like this is the way it served you? Have you found that generally to always kind of work out, or have there been times where like, “Ooh, I should hold those cards close?”
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  27:48
I feel like for me, I look at every opportunity as a positive way, and even at first, if it doesn’t seem like this doesn’t seem like it might fit DeAnna, I find myself when I get into that position, I do make it work. There’s one job in particular. I was at the Pentagon at the time, and I was just about to promote to O6, so looking for that O6 job, kind of on maybe a group commander level of sorts with the Air Force Reserve, and the opportunity that came up was to be the Advanced Airlift Tactics Training Center commandant. Eventually, you’d be the vice commandant first, and then the commandant. But this was at St. Joe, Missouri. This was at a Guard base. Yes, they fly C-130s, but we’re doing tactical education for the entire Mobility Air Force, and it’s the Center of Excellence for that, no less. And oh, by the way, we have the weapons school there for the C-130, and I do remember one of my peers at the Pentagon who said, “You’re going to go to the Advanced Airlift Tactics Training Center (AETTC) at St. Joe?” I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “They’re going to eat you alive because that’s where the weapons school is, and you’re not even an IP in the C-130. How can you do that?” I said, “That’s my tactical level. At this point, that is not the most important part. The most important part is the hopefully the command and the leadership and the advocating that I can bring for the Air Force reservists that were located at that base to continue with the mission for AETTC.” And so at first, yes, scared. I probably said that more in my head than I did out loud.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  29:24
I was like, that was so impressive.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  29:25
Yeah. But in my head, that’s the way it pivoted and went, because I knew I was walking into maybe an arena that I wasn’t, for other people, fully qualified. But I hope in that three years that I was there, I did justice for what was needed for our Air Force reservists that had billets at St. Joe that ran and operated in the weapons school there for the C-130s, and then working with our international partners as well. So it was a lot in that environment, but I loved it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  29:55
Well, I want to talk about that before we jump into an area where you felt very probably like going home again, when we’ll talk about you being becoming an AOC, but stepping— I love how you said like stepping into an arena might not be fully qualified for. Let’s talk about, like, what did you learn about yourself in that? Where did you see the most growth, especially on the leadership side of the house? I’m just curious.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  30:17
Well, specifically to AATTC?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  30:20
Yeah, like, in that role.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  30:22
So I actually would step back just a minute, and that those years that I got to spend at the Pentagon, which for many people going to the Puzzle Palace, as they call it, may not be the assignment that they look forward to. But I knew in the path that I was starting to push out for my command and leadership that going and getting the experience at the Pentagon was going to be very helpful for that broadening the networking. Even again, passing somebody in the hallway that you were like, “Wow, didn’t we work together 10,15, years ago? And now we’re working together again.” Really set a foundation. So when I did step into that position at the tax school in St. Joe, I knew who I could reach back to, whether it was even at the Pentagon level or at Air Force Reserve Headquarters in Warner Robins, Georgia, I had already established some of those relationships, and I think that’s why I was able to be more successful in St. Joe because when someone, Reserve airmen, came to me and they had a problem, I knew who I could contact or I could reach out to. So even taking a job, something like at the Pentagon where you think, “Oh, I’m just in the puzzle palace. I’m sitting in my cubicle.” You know, you’re commuting in and out of the Pentagon every day. If you take the time and grasp the connections that you can make there, it’ll pay off in the long run, and I felt like I saw that in my next two assignments.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  31:46
Well, I love how you said you may not, for example, you may not have the answer, but you know who to go to, or you knew who to go to, and I think that’s just a leadership lesson in itself. Like, I don’t think we’re designed and we’re supposed to have all the answers, but I think we are supposed to help navigate to utilizing our networks and, like you said, use all of our tools, right? And whether it’s people, you know, lessons that we learned, etc.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  32:07
Very much so.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  32:08
So, I would love to dive back into your time at the Academy. So that’s a— you were able to do that as a reservist, come back as an AOC.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  32:18
Yes.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  32:18
Is that typical?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  32:19
I was a first Reserve AOC that came out of the school boards to be picked to come, and, you know, that was falling a little bit back on that experience and lesson that I had out of being mil-to-mil, but then right before that time going through separation and divorce. So, you know, that was a challenging time for me personally, and to really assess, “OK, well, I’m here in Pope, North Carolina, flying C-130s.” Haley, at that time, was 3-, 4-years old, so she was tiny, and we were just trying to work well together. We still parent very well together, so that is a wonderful blessing to have. But, you know, for us, our paths change, our journeys change. A new chapter for me was the opportunity that came out with a school board that was looking to pick up a Reserve AOC to come back. Timing is always a wonderful thing, right? In your experience with career, and I happened to be the director of staff for the wing commander at Pope at the time, so needless to say, I saw all his emails, and there was an email in there looking for applications, and I was glad I was able to submit for that and got selected. So around that time of coming back to here at the Academy, it was just a complete joy, but also very challenging because I was going through that personal change in my marriage, being a single mom all of a sudden, and coming back to the Academy. But what I had in the background of being a new AOC was flight experience, working with my crews, of course going through the University of Colorado Colorado Springs Leadership and Counseling degree, which was also very therapeutic, probably for myself. Let alone getting to learn how to work with 18- to 25-year-olds that might be having their own challenges that they want to seek out advice from someone like an AOC. But I also felt like coming home because I got to be the officer rep for women’s swimming again, and I got to be an instructor pilot down at powered flight at the Academy. So my needing to feel well rounded was really sinking in for DeAnna, and while also being very supported as a single mama. Haley was just starting kindergarten, and so her to go through that was the first start where I needed to build my own village of help and realizing that it’s OK to have some backup moms, if you want to say, usually some great neighbors, the grandmas and the aunts were called in quite often. They were so supportive in order to make what I was hoping to be very successful AOC position here, and to give as much time and effort that I could to my cadets as well in that time.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  35:12
Well, I want to I want to pull on that thread. First off, thanks for sharing that. I think it’s, you know, you know life is it’s not all rainbows and you know and beautiful and sometimes it’s hard and I think— and that’s real so thank you for sharing that with us, that kind of journey. I think what I’m interested in, if you would, if you could share a story of— is, you know, one: What was maybe the most challenging, you know, leadership lesson you had as an AOC, whether it’s tied on with the personal life, or not? And then maybe what was the most gratifying? Like something that really, you know, you just remember it so well, and you share it today.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  35:48
Right. Well, as you are well aware, you know, 4,000 cadets. I got 100 cadets in each cadet squadron. I am thoroughly amazed by almost every single one of them. But as you know, in every squadron, every cadet squadron, every active-duty squadron, doesn’t matter, there’s probably a handful that will challenge you, and they will keep you on your toes. And so every—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:12
You put that so kindly.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  36:13
I know. There’s a few, and it is usually that you can count them on one fingers, one hand, which is OK because they’re the ones that that help you keep on your toes and help give other lessons. Many cadets, you know, they come through, and some of them, in the end, decide this is not what’s meant for them. So giving that guidance and help to maybe help guide them to somewhere else is OK. Of course, every AOC has maybe a few cadets that are challenged, whether it is militarily, academically, through the honor system, even outside challenges that every AOC goes through. One of the most recent examples, and I would say one that hits me hardest, is I did have a cadet that got pregnant in the time that she was in my squadron, but complete success story, you know. Went through what was needed in order to have her child and give up custody but eventually came back. And she actually late graded with 2016, and I’m so proud of her. She’s a weapons officer right now, still on active duty, married to another fellow cadet. They have a beautiful family, and so even though seeing her through what was that challenge, it was shocking to me because I was like, “Oh, how do we handle this? OK, I will figure this out.” I go to the Big Book of AOC How To… and then I try to, like, guide her through the rest. And then I had what I would say quite a few medical concerns with my cadets, and I remember a few times Haley and I would go to the hospital to go visit the cadet. Whether— you know, one woman went through a cancer diagnosis, another one was a Wings of Blue, and he had an accident right at the end, and he broke into many pieces. But having to call the parents of those cadets that are going through whatever medical situation, that was very challenging, but I felt like I was able to guide them through that well. I would tell Haley, “We’re going to hospitals for cadets, not for you.” She’s like, “We’re coming here again.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  38:17
OK, so would you say that that came the ability to talk to and have difficult conversations with family members came from time having, you know, kind of experienced different things in your career, or was it just something that you had seen others do? Like, where did that come from? Because I know that there are leaders that are watching or listening that struggle with difficult conversations.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  38:40
Yes, I think a bit of absorbing from other leaders. I wouldn’t say that I can pinpoint exact examples that I learned, but you absorb as you go through if you’re paying attention. That’s the most important part. And then it comes out in you through a level of disclosure, maybe that you decide to share, because there are probably certain things, like in my background, that a cadet doesn’t totally need to know, but they can understand, appreciate that I know what you’re thinking right now. One, us being cadets. When I came back to as an AOC, I was in Stalag 17, our freshman squadron. Oh my goodness! Yes, so I could, you know, when a cadet would say, “Ma’am, you don’t understand what I’m going through,” and I’m like, “I was you,” you know? But that was 15 years ago. I understand. So it was nice that I could relate in that manner, and then really willing to be vulnerable with myself, which I think a lot of us leaders, it’s hard to be vulnerable. It’s hard to let a little bit of that outside core that’s so strong, let that down.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  39:43
What do you mean by be vulnerable with myself? What does that look like?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  39:46
So I found myself through different commanders’ calls, for example. And I wanted to make sure I was shaping the commander’s calls, whether it was for my squadron in St. Joe or the one here at the 302nd at Peterson, that I was providing commanders calls that were valuable. They were lessons. They were things that “The More You Know,” like when we were kids, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  40:09
I remember the star.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  40:09
Yes, exactly. I’ve used that before. But I wanted to make sure it was on theme and on topic. So even I was having commanders calls, and I was either giving information from the top down. So yes, here’s what our top political— president’s saying down to the Department of Defense, down through the Air Force Reserve Command, but in the wing. And then I as your leader, here’s how I want you to interpret that, and I tried to make sure that the connection was best applicable to the youngest airmen, up to maybe that lieutenant colonel that’s been in the squadron for 20 years.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  40:46
Ah, interesting and challenging, I’m sure.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  40:49
Right. And when you try to do that correctly, you have to personalize it. Otherwise, you’re just putting words up on a screen. You’re just going through another slide deck. And so, in order to share, like you mentioned, my dad passed in 2019, and so there’s things I learned from that, bringing them back to my airmen about being prepared, being knowledgeable. How do you support the family that’s gone through a death or grieving period? When you have an airman that passes in your squadron, that’s another opportunity that you have to be vulnerable and say, “Who needs help today?” And you don’t want to be stoic. Can you— you want to make sure that they know that they can reach out to you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  41:26
Oh, that was really helpful and super-important. You know, I think just there are so many situations and walks of life where a difficult conversation can take on, you know, any kind of theme. But I think, to your point, being able to be vulnerable and kind of be there in the moment, to be relatable, I think, and be human is what makes it important and special.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  41:47
Right. You know, I I think I learned also from being in an AOC, going through the counseling program, and you know, there’s different discussions you have with your airmen when it comes to mentoring and guiding, and it it may be the difference between: Is this a conversation where we’re sitting in comfortable chairs and you’re able to share and feel comfortable? Is this a conversation where you’re at the desk next to me at the table and maybe we’re a little bit more professional and direct? Or is this you’re standing at the end of the table kind of conversation? So there’s different levels there that’s important to recognize, but you have to review what that person’s needs are in that moment. Sometimes an airman needs to hear the harder, stricter discipline in order to snap them out of whatever’s taking them in the wrong direction. Other times, they just need an ear and compassion, and then hopefully maybe a little guidance.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  42:40
So it sounds to me you’re describing the method in which you approach mentorship. Having, you know, had some great mentors in your life — obviously your dad’s probably one of them — you know, how would you, how do you, I guess, approach that with someone? Do you encourage like someone did with you, “Hey, go talk to that C-130 pilot over there.” What does that look like at the beginning?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  43:05
So I think when you’re mentoring, sometimes as leaders, we just get into our head: What is the Air Force career path that I need to guide this person on. Taking a moment to understand where the airman is in that moment, it could be also have an understanding of that airman’s spouse, their kids. What age are their kids in high school or not? So that way, you’re giving guidance that they’re actually listening and hearing to, because then they know that you understand them, and not just: I’m going to write some things on a whiteboard and maybe you’ll take some notes from it. So that connection is real important, I believe, and that might take opening— having them open up a little bit first, so you can see which area to go. So it could be more listening at first, but then taking the time to acknowledge that you heard what they said, and then maybe giving some options. Options are good. Maybe not something that’s so black line that they feel like if they get off that black line a little bit, that that opportunity is gone, and that’s what I try to share.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  44:09
So it sounds like— I know you’ve said you’ve taken on sometimes where you you know would find someone and you would help mentor them. You probably had others who said, “Would you be my mentor?” Probably that clearly. Is that true?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  44:21
A few times. I think, you know, the Air Force does a really good job by setting up very— opportunities of mentorship. You know, you go in through vPC or myPers or whatever the program is that we’re using now, and you can sign up for a mentor. That’s OK, and I’ve seen where maybe sometimes that could be successful, but really, if you’re looking for the mentor along your career way, that’s probably the most important. And that’s what I usually like to suggest is that someone finds that near peer mentor first, someone that you want to emulate, someone that you want to kind of follow in their footsteps, maybe ride on their coattails a little bit is real important because then you’ve seen the path that they’ve already charted. Maybe you don’t do all the exact same things they do, but they’ve kind of given you some of the answers already. So I feel the near peer mentor is the most important, and that could be a great friend. For example, if I’m flying in the C-130 and I want to be an instructor pilot, I’m going to continue to talk to that right next instructor pilot. It probably doesn’t make sense to me to go talk to the general who’s in charge of all the C-130s. So just being able to be relatable. Growing up through my career, I felt like I had, you know, squadron commanders and others that mentored me, and then as they started to get a little bit higher in leadership, they were there for great guidance. But I really appreciated, again, that near peer guider that maybe walked in those same footsteps that I would like to be a part of.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  45:52
I think that’s really helpful information as people are navigating their careers, whether in uniform or out of uniform, private sector, etc. But finding someone like you said who’s maybe walked the path a little bit more recently with you, and frankly, that might actually be even less intimidating in the ask, I would imagine.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  46:11
Very much so, yes. Because I think if a captain or a major goes to sit down with the general, they’re more concerned about “OK, am I am I looking right? Am I saying correct things?” They’re probably not as relaxed enough to actually take in the information, and then again, you have the example right in front of you, someone who is maybe already an O6, colonel or general above, they’re working in an environment that is outside of that major’s tactical scope, and so to say even that the general can relate directly to the major, I question that sometimes. So again, first best mentor is your near peer, but then continue to use your senior leaders who can help you through those connections, if that’s where the job is that you want to go and do.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  46:57
I recently heard this term, and I think I’ve got it right, but like reverse mentoring, where it’s actually more junior leaders or colleagues, et cetera, that are actually mentoring up. Have you seen— have you experienced that? And have you seen that work?
 
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  47:14
I think that’s important. A lot of times we just referred that as feedback originally. Now we call it reverse mentoring. Sometimes senior leaders, it’s hard for them to take feedback. I know for myself, I I try to stay open and available to that. There’s a few times in my career I do remember, because, you know, I’m trying to always be within standards and regulations, and making sure I’m being a suitable example to all the airmen. And there might have been one time — it’s a small thing — but when you have a younger airman or maybe your co-person tell you, “Hey, Col. Franks, you’re missing your patch on your right shoulder,” and I was like, “Oh, so embarrassed!” You know, “I forgot to put my patch back on,” and so in my way, I felt very embarrassed, but I was also I was able to say back to the airman, “Well, at least you know I did laundry last night. That’s a good thing.” But you know, the first thing I did was run back upstairs to my office and make sure my uniform was back in the way it needs to be. So sometimes even the smallest little feedback is helpful for me to reset to go, “OK, I’ve got to stay on top of it,” you know? And I appreciate that.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  48:25
I love that, and I think that’s important for those that are in those positions where they feel like, “Does my voice matter? Can I actually, you know, make an impact or influence things, even if I’m not, you know, the boss in the room?” And I think the answer is yes. You know, probably appropriately, not like, “Hey, boss!” You know, like there are times,,,
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  48:43
I would agree with that. Yes, professionally, appropriately and in good timing.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  48:48
So I want to ask you— you know, you’ve had an amazing career. You recently retired. I feel like I’ve seen more of you in the service realm than ever. I mean, because just by virtue of working so closely with the Academy is what I mean, because you’ve always been in the service realm. I think my question would be, what have you learned? And to tie it with the leadership piece, like, what have you learned that you know today that you wish you’d known when we were cadets?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  49:16
I think it starts with just take it day by day, one foot in front of the other. Depends on the Mitchell Hall meal. No, I think that’s the most important lesson. You know, even maybe us seeing through our kids now. You know, a lot of times thinking too far ahead, like the goal that is five to 10 years from now, and having that stress you out, it’s kind of like just bring it back. Let’s focus on what the goal is just tomorrow and the next day after that, and then maybe into the next year. But I will admit, coming up on the retirement decision in August of ’24, I was working again in C-130s as operations group commander, but I was on the MAFFS program, so we do the mobility airborne firefighting out of our C-130s here at Colorado. So I was up in Boise, Idaho, and running the MAFFS unit that summer. But that was also the exact same time that my boss, the general, asked, “OK, DeAnna, what’s next? I’d like you to take a wing. I’d like you to go here, go there.” But for me and my choice, because it was out of Colorado Springs, out of the Colorado area, my daughter was about to be a freshman in college in Grand Junction. I did not see myself taking on a role, as much as I wanted to continue serving. I would have loved to be a wing commander, but to be in a location at the time by myself, away from my child, with a new group of family of Reserve airmen that I didn’t know yet was a little bit challenging for me to accept, and I had felt like I had gotten further in the career that I ever thought I was. I mean, full-bird colonel. I wasn’t expecting that, but I’m so proud to be a part of everything that I had already done, and so that was probably the only time. As much as I said, don’t look so far ahead, but I felt like the decision to retire at that time was helpful because where I saw myself five years from now, from that point, I don’t know if I was quite as comfortable with it because I knew it probably would take me into the leadership realm, whether that was back to D.C. or our Reserve headquarters in Georgia, and I don’t know if that was on DeAnna’s bucket list. And so making that decision, as hard as it really was, there was a lot of tears.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  51:37
I can imagine.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  51:38
But sitting here now, one year later, I’m very thankful for where I’m at, and like you said, it’s a privilege to be able to see you more often. Because, as we all know, the Academy is like our mothership; it calls us back. So again, able to retire here in Colorado Springs, live here locally. I felt like I got to engage more in our volunteer aspects that we have, which I encourage everybody to go to the new visitor center. You can come say hi to me. I’m a docent and I volunteer, and I just really get the privilege out of talking, even if it’s standing there for four hours. The amount of foot traffic of people that come through that new visitor center is outstanding. Not just alumni, but just everybody coming off I-25, and I feel like I can really share the positive heritage and legacy that we have at the Academy by just talking to every single one that comes through the visitor center. Also, engaging with our USAFA Women affinity group. I’ve been a proud part of that, and we just had our 50th celebration in April, which was outstanding. And more importantly, that’s kept me connected and engaged, and it makes me smile. So that’s a good thing. And I just, I really respond on continuing to mentor in some ways by getting more of our alumni involved with the Association of Graduates or with our USAFA Women, visiting the visitor center. It really just it fills my heart, so I feel like I’m still serving even though I’m retired.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  53:05
Well, you’re wearing all your Air Force swag, which is just another type of uniform. So, what— you talked about every day. What is something you’re doing every day to be a better leader?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  53:16
So, besides those volunteer opportunities, it just warms my heart when I have somebody who says I think you should call DeAnna Franks and talk with her and that literally just happened a couple weeks ago. One of our photographers from the celebration was taking a high school graduation picture. She’s a young lady who just mentioned she wants to be an aerospace engineer, and she wants to maybe be in the Air Force. She hadn’t really thought about the Academy, but that small note where that photographer gave her my phone number, we met up and had a conversation, had lunch, and I just encouraged her in whatever way I could. “Even if it’s not the Air Force Academy, let’s talk about ROTC in the Air Force at these big colleges that you want to go to.” And she doesn’t come from a military family, so she was trying to understand, “How do I explain to my parents why this is a benefit? Why this is a great thing?” And so I was able to walk her through the basics of: “If you could get a scholarship for ROTC, how that sets you up. You commission as a lieutenant, you are guaranteed a job, and you will do well and succeed, and then you’ll probably have a career for 26 years.” And she was like, “OK, I’m sold.” So those kind of instances just make me feel like I’m still doing what I’m supposed to be doing.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  54:40
I love that. Well, DeAnna, this has been amazing. I mean, I think when you talked about near peer, I think we’ve even had times where I know I’ve leaned in on you from a mentoring…
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  54:48
Me too, with you. I remember coming before retirement. I said, "Naviere, I need a girl chat. Yeah. How are we doing this?”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  54:55
Oh my gosh. Yes. Well, I think those are all wonderful nuggets, and hopefully everyone will continue to, you know, to leverage that as well. Was there anything today that you wanted to bring up that we didn’t cover?
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  55:07
I just appreciate this opportunity. Again, I am— I drink the blue Kool Aid that is Air Force Academy. I will be at all the football games, volleyball tonight. Always attached to my swim team as well, and I just really appreciate when I can see alumni come back through, and then when they bring their kids through, it is...
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  55:27
Oh, you sponsor as well. Like you, you kind of do it all.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks  55:30
Yes, yes. But no, thank you, Naviere. This time has been wonderful.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  55:33
Well, thank you. Well, today some of the things that we covered, you know, with Col. (Ret.) Franks, just, you know, making the time to really understand who’s across the table from you before you kind of jump in, so that when you’re actually mentoring, it is meaningful and really tied to that person’s needs. I love how you how you described, you know, what does this moment call for? Is it a we’re in comfortable seats? Is it someone across the table a little bit more formally, or is it a little bit more structure to it? And hopefully, it’s you know, they take it to heart in that way. So I think those are some of the wonderful items that you’ve left with us. But also, I think, you know, where I feel that it’s been really wonderful is in this space of being vulnerable. And I and I know people have talked about that a lot. But when you think about how you take a message, personalize it so that others can find themselves in it and find them related to it. So I think those are all really helpful lessons that that DeAnna shared today. So if you and others are looking at more leadership nuggets, continue checking out Long Blue Leadership. We have amazing conversations with Air Force Academy grads just like this today, and certainly you can call DeAnna Franks if you need a mentor as well. It’s been wonderful.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks 56:45
Would love that. Thanks, Naviere.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  56:47
Absolutely. Well, until next time, I’m Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99.
 
Col. DeAnna Franks 56:52
Gold Will Shine!
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  56:54
We’ll see you on Long Blue Leadership.
 
KEYWORDS
Leadership, mentorship, near-peer mentoring, reverse mentoring, leadership development, Air Force Academy, U.S. Air Force, Air Force Reserve, military leadership, career development, team leadership, resilience, perseverance, communication, relationship building, emotional intelligence, vulnerability in leadership, servant leadership, pilot training, C-130, work-life balance, women in the military, leadership lessons, professional growth, supporting others, building trust, taking it day by day.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 

Curiosity. Vulnerability. Humility. Confidence.
 
SUMMARY
For Dr. Vik Bebarta ’94, those qualities aren’t competing leadership styles, they’re complementary. He has tested that philosophy everywhere, including leading teams through moments when decisions had immediate consequences. His advice for the next generation? Stay curious. Take chances. Take care of your people.DR. BEBARTA'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS1. Lead With Compassion During Uncertainty. Great leaders recognize when people are most vulnerable and provide the clarity, reassurance and presence they need.
2. Train for Chaos, Not Comfort. Preparation and discipline allow leaders to remain composed, make decisions and guide others when circumstances become unpredictable.
3. Build Strength Through Diverse Experiences. Exposure to different environments, perspectives and challenges develops the adaptability necessary for effective leadership.
4. Put People Before Career Advancement. Meaningful leadership sometimes requires making difficult professional choices that honor responsibilities to family and personal priorities.
5. Follow the Mission, Not the Uniform. A leader's purpose and capacity to serve can continue long after a particular position, organization or career chapter ends.
6. Move at the Speed of Need. When lives and missions are at stake, leaders must combine urgency, collaboration and disciplined action to deliver solutions when they matter.
7. Turn Experience Into Systemic Improvement. The greatest value of a difficult experience comes when leaders convert what they learn into changes that benefit others.
8. Lead With Humility, Curiosity and Vulnerability. Confidence becomes more effective when leaders remain open to questions, acknowledge limitations and create psychological safety.
9. Choose Purpose Over a Perfect Career Path. Careers rarely unfold in straight lines, so leaders should remain open to opportunities while staying committed to service and meaningful impact.
10. Care Boldly, Lead Bravely and Keep Growing. Effective leadership requires the courage to act, the humility to examine what could have gone better and the discipline to keep improving.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 - Introduction: Dr. Vik Bebarta’s Leadership Journey
00:01:32 - From Small-Town South Carolina to the Air Force Academy
00:03:54 - A Father’s Illness Reveals a Calling to Medicine
00:07:39 - Training for Chaos: Leadership Under Pressure
00:10:23 - Why Diverse Experiences Build Better Leaders
00:12:09 - Leading Medical Teams in Combat
00:13:44 - Choosing Family and Redefining Service
00:18:24 - Building the Center for Combat Medicine
00:21:27 - Sgt. Alwyn Cashe: The Moment That Changed Everything
00:25:34 - The Speed of Need: Accelerating Medical Innovation
00:29:54 - Leading With Humility, Curiosity and Trust
00:33:26 - Finding Your Own Path: Advice for Future Leaders
00:36:35 - Caring Boldly, Leading Bravely: Lessons for Life
 
ABOUT DR. BEBARTA
BIO
Dr. Vik Bebarta ’94 is an Air Force Academy graduate, physician-scientist and leader in military and civilian medicine. He serves as chair of the Department of Emergency Medicine at the University of Colorado School of Medicine, founding director of the CU Anschutz Center for Combat Medicine and Battlefield Research, and strategic lead of the Marcus Institute for Brain Health. A colonel in the Air Force Reserve, Bebarta served 14 years on active duty, including multiple deployments as a combat physician. His work focuses on accelerating medical innovation, improving battlefield trauma care and translating military medical advances into lifesaving solutions for civilian communities.
Dr. Bebarta’s approach to leadership was shaped by personal loss, the demands of combat medicine and a commitment to serving others during their most vulnerable moments. His experiences treating wounded service members in Iraq reinforced his belief that urgency, collaboration and a willingness to challenge established practices can transform lives. Today, he brings those lessons to medical research, organizational leadership and the development of future leaders, emphasizing curiosity, humility, adaptability and what he calls the “speed of need.” His philosophy reflects a simple but powerful commitment: care boldly, lead bravely and never stop learning.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS:Guest: Dr. Vik Bebarta ’94  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz 0:02Sometimes the direction of our lives becomes clear because of a specific moment in time that imprints us. For Dr. Vik Bebarta, those moments ultimately revealed not only his calling, but what it means to serve. I’m Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Dr. Vik Bebarta, Class of 1994, is an Air Force Academy graduate, physician scientist and chair of the Department of Emergency Medicine at the University of Colorado School of Medicine. He’s the founding director of the CU Anschutz Center for Combat Medicine and Battlefield Research and serves as strategic lead of the Marcus Institute for Brain Health. A colonel in the Air Force Reserve, Vik served 14 years on active duty and deployed multiple times as a combat physician. His research and leadership have focused on turning lessons learned in the military into advances into trauma care, brain health and emergency medicine; work that is intended to improve not only care for those you serve, but for patients everywhere. I think I got that right. Did I get that right?
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 1:05Right, you did. Yeah, nice job. Good summary.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:08Welcome, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is a treat for us.
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 1:11 Same for me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:13We’re thrilled. Wonderful. We have so much to cover today, and really, the key is we want to dig into your leadership journey because this is what our grads and our listeners and viewers really love to hear. So, would like to kind of jump into, you know, your path at the Air Force Academy was varied, right? It moved very differently than maybe you imagined. Maybe we start there.Dr. Vik Bebarta 1:32Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up in in South Carolina and I’d never been to Colorado.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:36Ever?
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 1:37Ever. I sure as heck hadn’t been here. And I grew up in a small town, immigrant family and didn’t know much about the service academies except for a guy I worked for in the summers had gone to the Air Force Academy, and that a friend of my brother, one had gone to the Naval Academy, one had gone to West Point. It’s about all I knew, and when I was looking for colleges, I said I really want to do more than go to classes, but a little bit of adventure, a little skydiving, a little survival training, and that’s what led me along the path to service academies.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:08So, you know, that’s kind of a unique perspective for someone who maybe really didn’t have a ton of exposure. Did you have any? Were your parents influential in any way, or mentors when you were a young kid that also helped kind of steward you in that direction?Dr. Vik Bebarta 2:21Yeah, you know when I was growing up in the small town called Denmark, we had a close family member who was in the Army, was in Vietnam, and he was our scoutmaster for Boy Scouts, Gus Eubanks, and he was very sort of focused on the military, and it was always forefront of mind, you know. As Boy Scouts, he trained us about military principles. I think that was the early start growing up. And then seeing some of these folks in our community, small community, 4,000 people, who had gone off to service academies, and how that was interesting and cool. And a friend of mine actually was very big into flying, and because all those things together sort of got along the lines of maybe going into the military. Uniquely, though, again, immigrant families — me, my brother, my parents here — so we didn’t have anybody in the military except for my aunt, who was in the Indian army back in India, who I hadn’t met yet. But she was one of the first women who had joined the military at the time. My mom’s family was all first, lots of first engineers in the military, or in in the military, first engineers, first Ph.D., those types of things. And so she was one of the first women that went into the Indian army. So I knew that, but I’d never met her at that time.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:40Well, I’m seeing some of these things of, you know, standards of excellence coming from your family already. So you know, you mentioned, you know, survival training and jump and pilot, but that’s not what you’re doing. Let’s talk about how that kind of happened. You’re in medicine.
Dr. Vik Bebarta 3:54That’s right. Yeah, I think, you know, early on I didn’t know what I was going to do. As my mom, who passed away last year, would say my primary goal, even in high school, was to be a rock star. Yeah, exactly. I think that carried through my junior year.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:12Any particular band?
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 4:13A little bit of AC/DC, then Guns N’ Roses, and those times. So I think at some point she told me, which I don’t remember it. Like that’s not going to work in a real career. So, but when I was younger, when I was a eighth grader or so, my father got ill, and he was sick for about four or five years. He ultimately passed away when I was a high school senior, and so I think that influence of that time, and seeing my father ill, and seeing the physicians that took care of us, inspired me to move in that direction and move into medicine.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:56What was it in particular about, I guess, I mean, that’s such a difficult experience to go through any time in life, but especially I think in those years at high school, you know, you’re about to transition into like what you’re going to do as an adult. What was it about those positions and that experience that kind of imprinted you, maybe unknowingly?
Dr. Vik Bebarta 5:15Yeah, unknowingly. I think at the time I didn’t realize it, and, you know, my dad had gotten ill, and so my mom sort of had to step in and help figure this out, what’s going to happen?.And you know, she had two young teenagers, and she was very smart. She had two PhDs. You know, one from India and one from here. She was raising two boys in a new country. At the same time, this is a very complicated medical illness that my father had, and while she’s very smart, she was also very scared. And in front of the doctor was a woman who was a mother of two young boys and a wife to a husband who was really ill, and he saw that, and he saw that he could be there in a very vulnerable and scary moment. I saw that too. I think that’s what mapped out my plan, not just to be a physician, but more so to be there when people are at their vulnerable moments and when they’re most scared, whether it’s in medicine or whether it’s in leadership, that you can help explain things simply where they’re in that scared moment. I think that was what really moved me into medicine and actually framed my medical career, but also my leadership career too.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:35Wow! So when, while you’re a cadet, did that kind of come into play, or did it happen while you’re a cadet or after graduation? Because I know the medical path from the Air Force Academy isn’t always as clear as, you know, I want to be a pilot. I meet these requirements and I have a pilot slot.
Dr. Vik Bebarta 6:50That’s right. I think for medicine, I think when I went to the academy. So this is nine months when he passed away before I went to the academy, and then I still didn’t know what I was going to do, but somewhere around my sophomore year here, I thought medicine was the way to go and started moving in that direction and taking the classes and trying to get some observerships downtown. And then I was fortunate enough at the end of the Academy to get a medical school slot and then move in that direction fully to go to medical school.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:22Wow! So once you started down that path, what are some of the— I don’t know, I think I’d be curious because, you know, we think about newer leaders, right? They become second lieutenants or they’re early in their career journeys of leadership. What did that look like for you on the medical side? I’m curious on what that looked like.Dr. Vik Bebarta 7:39Yeah, I think, you know, a couple things that really stood out to me is how well the Academy has prepared me for that. We joke a little bit at medical school that the medical school is easier than the academy.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:50Really?
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 7:51Far easier, less busy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:53You’re like, I have all this time.
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 7:54Right. Exactly, which is a mistake because I had too much time, and we were in D.C. for med school. I think a lot of us probably— a few of our classmates went to med school in D.C. We probably went out a little bit too much our first year of medical school, but it also gave us a sense of leadership, a sense of the ability to work under stress. You know, we always talk about how you don’t train for calm; you train for chaos. And in medical school, there’s a lot of busyness there. It’s not quite chaos, but the Academy training gave you the opportunity to, you know, be calm in those situations, plan ahead. It’s all going to be OK. We’re going to figure it out. Which was very different than my colleagues who are not from service academies. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:38I can imagine that, right? You know, this is. I don’t know if this is dating me, and I don’t know if this is still accurate now, but I remember at times when I would be at certain, when I was active duty, I would be at certain either bases or classes, and someone in the medical field, excuse me, would be coming to that class, and they would be like, "How do I wear this on my uniform?” Because you’re not obviously doing that all the time. Can you talk a little bit about like how it feels to still be serving in the military, but in the vein of, you know, medicine? It’s a little bit different. Like, do you still feel that same, “I’m doing my part of the Air Force mission.”?
Dr. Vik Bebarta 9:09Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, so when I left the Academy, it was really about 10 years later when I fully put my uniform back on. So with medical school, and we do after medical school, we do residency for more years and fellowship training. So in that 10 years, I had buddies that were leaving active duty, you know, that were pilots, and I was just sort of starting my military journey. And so all those 10 years, it was a little challenging because you feel you’re a part of it, but you’re actually not doing it. And so there were months here and there over those 10 years where you go down to Texas or go do some training in aerospace medicine, and that became a little bit of challenge because you’re not really sure if you’re a civilian if you’re military, even though you know you are. And that was hard. Where my colleagues who were active duty were wearing the uniform and training, and I had folks that were not military were doing what I was doing, and you know, just being a normal civilian.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:05Do you feel that that was part of how you develop? How does that affect your leadership development? Did you feel like you were developing it differently with a more of a civilian mindset and understanding that? So it actually was opening up your aperture more broadly, or do you feel like maybe you were missing a bit of the, you know, kind of the hierarchical structure of the military.Dr. Vik Bebarta 10:23Yeah, I firmly believe in leadership development — that the varied experiences are very important in development. There’s a book called Range that talks about how if you have many different experiences, or if you’re an athlete, you have— many different sports make you a better athlete. I think the same thing for my leadership, and that helped me through this transition with being a civilian in the military. Having these different experiences, the civilian engagement while having military principles and military training together, set me up years later to be a better leader, both for the military and in my current civilian leadership roles as well.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:59Amazing. So you mentioned that, you know, you kind of fully put on the uniform about 10 years later. Was there a moment in time when wearing the uniform where you kind of felt that military and medical background really just kind of come to this apex with like, “Wow, I really get this. This is, you know, this has come together in a way that I wouldn’t have never imagined.”
Dr. Vik Bebarta 11:17Yeah, it’s a great question. Looking back at the moment, I didn’t realize it, but looking back, you know, when I entered back into active duty, it was right around 9/11, so the deployment tempo was high, and I was in emergency position, an ER doc, and so high demand, especially to Iraq and also to Afghanistan. So in those moments, those first moments, then that sort of confluence of in the military and the medical career, emergency physicians came together at the right moment for me, almost like a time in a bottle over those early years.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:56You talked about leadership development and range, right? So now, when these two are coming together, did you find yourself, you know, developing more rapidly? Were you experiencing things from a different vantage point now that you had those come together? I’m just curious how it affected your leadership.Dr. Vik Bebarta 12:09Yeah, I think, you know, in those moments when we were deployed— so when I really understood what being in the military is about was being deployed, and at those moments, you— we were all out of training, recently out of training. We deployed to Iraq; I was the chief of the emergency department, which is basically a big tent, but was the busiest hospital since the Vietnam War for casualties. And you didn’t have a lot of time to learn, so we all were learning together, sort of collective wisdom, and you had to make decisions that were highly consequential, which in many other instances you may have learned 10 years later or five years later at a slower pace. We were learning those lessons day by day, hour by hour. And so the ability to be adaptive, to be curious, to be vulnerable in those challenges, to take care of a team that was under a lot of stress, they were away from home — you’re talking to dealing with casualties that were, you know, young men and women that were, you know, dying or could be dying. It was a very hard time for them and you had to lead them through those moments. I think I grew a lot personally and professionally over those periods.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:24And you were still active at that time, correct?
Dr. Vik Bebarta 13:25Correct.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:26So, how did that time serve you? So, you made a decision at 14 years to go into the Reserve. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that one: that decision to, you know, to navigate your career differently, because I think that’s an area where people in general are like, should I stay inactive? Should I go into the Reserve or Guard? Just curious on your own personal transition.Dr. Vik Bebarta 13:44That’s a great question. You know, I was active duty 14 years. I enjoyed every— I enjoyed most minutes of it. Yeah, it was very an operational time when I was— meaning it was a high tempo and very focused on the war and what’s going on and all the things I did, both research innovation and clinically with emergency medicine. But at 14 years we’d come to the point— I had a great opportunity with the military to move. Very fond of the joint operations and the joint environment, so we’d be moving to D.C. to be leading a joint program almost worth a billion dollars. But our family had been through a lot. We deployed a lot. I deployed a lot, and my wife had been through several deployments, taking care of kids when I wasn’t there for much of it. And I felt continuing potentially in that environment may be selfish, and that I need to focus on what they needed as they were coming into high school and the stresses they had. I could probably make a career without having to do this full time. That was a hard decision because I had great sponsors and leaders in the military. I had a great opportunity. I thought that was the right thing at the moment to do, uncertain of what I would do at the time. But I will say I wanted to continue to serve in some way. I think the Academy — of the many lessons carries through us, is we all have different careers, but it definitely carries the need to serve in some way after, and that to me was important and be respected for the military time I’ve given. So our consideration was to lead the military to the great wide world to figure out what to do at the time. And I will say, you know, I talked to a lot of people, and I don’t think— you should definitely not feel you have to serve 20 years, but you should also definitely leave when you feel fulfilled, and so, and not stay beyond that. And so at that moment, it was the right time for us to leave. Different for other people.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:49Thank you for sharing that. I think, you know, it’s a topic that many may think about, but not spend a lot of time talking about. And so, I think, just in sharing how you navigated it, I think it was smart you had all those conversations, and I think those two points, making sure that you are, you know, you feel really fulfilled, and I think the service component is really important. So I want to talk about what you transitioned into because when you did find yourself in the civilian world while still working as a reservist, I think that when you talked about the range of experiences you’ve had and your desire for, you know, being adaptable and being flexible and moving quickly from learning seems like that translated pretty well into what you’re doing now. Let’s talk about that a bit.Dr. Vik Bebarta 16:29Yeah, I think when I left the military, active duty, went to the Guard for some time and then to the Reserve, I one hint namely not to deploy away from the family and not to move every three years, and then do some research and see patients. And so that was a pretty low bar. But we looked at opportunities in industry, and in pharma, in community practice and academic practice. We found that in Colorado, it really represented what we’re looking for. The bosses I was going to work for understood what the military did, and the community of Colorado was supportive of that. But I will say the first couple of years was hard, as many people leave that could do that transition, that loss of community and shared experiences. it was hard the first two years. I think mostly because I conflated wearing the uniform with mission, and I thought they were the same. And what I learned is I could take off the uniform, that was tremendously important, and still have mission and purpose. Once I found that, which took me a couple of years, I really accelerated to provide that service to the community and to the nation without wearing the uniform full time.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:44That’s really helpful, and I think, you know, probably worthwhile for those that are in the medical field to be, to know that there are paths outside of the traditional way of, “I serve 20, you know, however many till I retire and then move on.” And so I think that was really helpful that there are those pathways. So I’m curious in your in your current role now, and maybe let’s talk about your work with the I want to say this right: the combat medicine and battlefield research. I think that work is phenomenal and I’ve had an opportunity to listen to your TED Talk, which is fantastic, but I’m curious if you can talk about, you know, how you’ve seen, you know, your leadership develop in this space because you’re moving at a rapid pace, and you’re trying to bring others along with you.Dr. Vik Bebarta 18:24Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting. So when we thought about, we call it the Combat Center, Combat Medicine Research Center, called Combat Center at University Colorado. At the beginning, when I left active duty, I had some frustrations that, you know, we have folks that are dying on the battlefield, and we could do things better and faster. We can bring the smartest scientists, the biggest companies, onto these problems, capability gaps, requirements, and solve them faster than what’s typically taking 17 years, and so a long time. And, you know, folks who are, you know, in elementary school are waiting until they’re in college before they get these solutions or answers, and that’s not fair to them. That’s not fair to our warfighters who are on the battlefield now, and they won’t see them until they retire. And so I felt that urgency to solve those. So I thought, you know, could I bring together, you know, folks who are, you know, smart researchers, companies who are bringing good technologies in the military together? At first, that idea was brought to me, and the leader said, at the University of Colorado, said, "Hey, would you do this?” And I said, "Absolutely not.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:28Really?
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 19:29I said, "I’m not deploying. I’m not moving. I want to just do research and take care of my patients.” So they said, “Fine. We think it’s a good idea.” And so they came back two weeks later and they said, “I think we should do this.” And I said, “Absolutely not.” I got just too busy, but by the third time I came around, I thought that we actually had the team to do this in the will, but a lot of other people did not believe this was a thing, and so even early on, I thought of more of a startup mentality. Like we can bend the arc of, you know, combat casualty care, warfighter medicine, but I think this is how we need to do it. So we went to the lion’s den and went to the bear cage and said, you know, we, you know, “Resource us, we can do this.” I went to the military and everyone said, you know, “Who are you? What is this?” And we were able to bring together what was called the combat center, basically aiming to save lives on the battlefield and back home. So for every military innovation is a civilian mirror. For every injury in the military, whether it’s PTSD or suicide or bleeding or tourniquet needs, there’s a need in our community. So bringing the things that save people on the battlefield back home to our backyard, in our rural communities, in our states like Denver or Aurora or Colorado Springs, applying them there, that I realized was a novel idea that many people did not know. But I was highly passionate about it, and we’ve been quite successful in launching that entire paradigm.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:55Wow! And it makes me think back to your dad, and you know, in his battle and the time. I mean, obviously, 17 years wouldn’t bring a solution in that case, but certainly shortening it down would get you know people have better chances at some of that.
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 21:09For sure.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:10I’d love to talk about maybe some of what you’ve learned in this in this role, right? Because part of it, you know, you’re saying what is happens on the battlefield and how we can improve it. We can do it back home. I’m curious if there was ever a moment on the battlefield that has either changed or shaped the way you’ve done some of the work for the combat center.Dr. Vik Bebarta 21:27Yeah, that occurred to me Oct. 17, 2005.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:33You have a specific date.
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 21:34Specific date because I took care of Sgt. First Class Alvin Cash. He was a young sergeant, army sergeant, and this was in Balad, Iraq. I was chief of the emergency department, and he had gone out and patrol, and he was in a Bradley vehicle, and he got hit by an IED. He escaped unarmed, uninjured, but then went back and pulled all of his soldiers out of that vehicle. When the medevac or dust off helicopter came to pick him up, he said, “I’ll go last. You take everyone else.” So I took care of him and all of his soldiers after that, and he was burned badly — 85% of his body was burned, which is basically a death sentence. But had he not done that, his other soldiers would not have lived as they did, and so that moment stuck with me. I actually went back and journaled about that that night in our little plywood hut that we had near the tent. And I remember the next day the commander came and talked to us and shared the story as well that Sgt. Cash had— Sgt. Cash went on and received the Medal of Honor from the president just a few years ago. But I remember that moment because, you know, one: I could never do what he did. It was very heroic, and two: I realized that in a moment we could change health care. We don’t need to wait 17 years or five years or 10 years. We could change it in a minute, because that night we all got together from the entire theater from all the countries that were in Southwest Asia and CENTCOM, and met together and decided how we can improve burn care that night. Changed the guidelines for the military, the Department of Defense, changed them within weeks and months across the world and how burn care is done. I was like, why can’t we do this for many things: for cancer care, for trauma care for brain injury, for suicide, but that moment crystallized what we can do for health care, and that changed my career, my progression and all the stuff we’ve done since then for 20 years now.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:33Wow! What an incredible— I mean, what a hero first of all, and then just what an incredible story that changed you. Would all of those people have gotten together had that not happened? Did you already meet regularly, but then you had this incident that you actually focused on? I’m just curious how that was.Dr. Vik Bebarta 23:55That’s a great question. That incident galvanized us to come together. And there was a mentality of agility of getting things done, a bias to action that we had to take right then at that moment, that was one big example that moved me. But over weeks and days and months, as we were deployed and many of the physician surgeons and whatnot that were there, that was the type of mentality we all had. In fact, we always talk about that Balad, Iraq, where the Air Force theater hospital was in a very joint environment, that was a genesis of a lot of health care innovations that we all see today in our community hospitals and trauma centers now. It was the bedrock of a decade of leaders who were in health care executives across the country who went on to be generals and commanders and CEOs and deans and chairs out of that window. I have a picture of five people I deployed with, and every single one of those people who were from different backgrounds — docs, nurses, family medicine — who are now executives in health care because of that moment, because that’s the mentality we had as we had to fix this right now, and it was a pretty powerful time to be a part of that group, and I think that’s how we led. And that moment was one hard example, but there were other small ones that led other types of leaders in that space.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:08I literally got chill bumps when you talked about the five, you know, five people in your photo and how they’re literally leading change because of the ability, you know, their position and their leadership in those different roles. When we talk about the speed of impact, like what you’ve been able to do. Can you share, you know, have there been any kind of truly other instrumental ways that you’ve moved medicine faster because of this work?Dr. Vik Bebarta 25:34Yeah, you know, I think, you know ,I speak to this. I call it the speed of need, and beating the—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:40Speed to need?
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 25:41Speed of need.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:42Speed of need. Got it.
 
Dr. Vik Bebarta 25:43Speed of need and beating the bottlenecks of bureaucracy. The speed of need meaning we have someone there. You know, in emergency medicine, you don’t have time to admire the problem, and neither in combat medicine. You got someone bleeding in front of you. Someone’s got brain injury in front of you. You need to make a decision right now. You can’t wait. So that’s the need, and we need to move to that speed. We shouldn’t wait 17 years or five years for those solutions. We need to push those forward, and that’s how we operate. We operate in our combat center— we operate with trust, like, people trust us. We get the phone calls from D.C. or Ukraine or Iraq or anywhere else. They call us to help solve those problems. We are highly collaborative, meaning you can trust us to work with you all to solve those problems, whether it’s industry or government or another country. And then we believe in urgency and impact, and we move fast in that way. So whether a couple solutions that we’ve talked about around tourniquet use, that was one of the early training things that came out of TCCC or tactical combat casualty care, and how to move those from military medicine, unfortunately, into our civilian communities where we’re having mass shootings and shootings in schools and applying those and training those. Whether it’s moving whole blood transfusions or blood transfusions right up to the field and the point of injury in in our battlefield situations in our civilian hospitals and our ambulances today. And how do we reduce suicide, particularly military firearm suicide? Highly prevalent in our military communities and our dependents as well. How do we get those solutions in working with gun shops into our civilian communities to making sure we can reduce firearm suicide in those communities as well?
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:24I was actually going to ask you because when you talked about the speed to need, especially in an emergency or on the combat field, it’s very visible, right? And so then I thought about, well, what about the speed to need for the into the medical needs that aren’t so visible? And I think about how in our you know just in our country, in our nation, the prevalence of suicide, and I think about you know post-traumatic stress and those things that maybe aren’t so visible. I’m just curious how do you how do you work towards the speed to need for that?Dr. Vik Bebarta 27:52Yeah, I think the, you know, for us, you know, we want to understand the problem. So we actually work back from the problem and then forward with science. So we take a look and what is the most pressing prevalent issue, PTSD or PTS or suicide, and then now how do we solve that? How do we bring folks together, which we really think is important, from science, from industry, from both sides, from the military, from commanders who are not medical, the young enlisted, to senior enlisted together, what is the challenge that we’re having, and then come up with solutions that are actually we can implement, and that’s where they think the challenge has been is: What works and how do we implement them? We got a lot of things that work, but the commander, a young E4, E5, won’t implement that and won’t use that. It ain’t gonna work. We do a lot with different technology and wearable solutions and metadata and whatnot, and some of those work quite well, but for TSSCI situation, those aren’t going to work that well. But maybe for our communities and bases in garrison, they actually work quite well. OK, and so we try and find the things that we can implement and move not just through practice. You know, sometimes we talk about how speed saves lives, but where it’s really important is speed with purpose changes systems. Systems change practice. Practice changes communities and generations and families. And so we try to look at that impact and bring that. But it’s about bringing folks together who want to take action from different backgrounds and then developing the rigor as well as the urgency together to move that that speed of need.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:26Wow, that’s fascinating, and I think that’s really helpful the way you presented it that way for us to think about all of those ways that things can be affected and changed. One of the things that’s been on my mind is I’ve thought about the dichotomy of you being a colonel still in the Reserve, and you know leading this at the combat center. Are you the same leader in both places? And meaning, what I mean by that is, are you still implementing the same tools to move your teams on both sides of the, you know, uniform or not uniform? What does that look like?Dr. Vik Bebarta 29:54Yeah, I love using my military experience and knowledge and training that we’ve had over the years, from the Academy all the way to now, to our civilian leadership roles. And you know sometimes people think of military colonels as being ordering people around and telling people what to do, but as we know, the great leaders that go from good to great, they lead with curiosity and vulnerability and humility and confidence together. So I like bringing those best pieces of our military training into our civilian leadership health care community and helping train my health care executives in the same tools. And it’s always refreshing and almost disarming because they think of someone who’s in you know Air Force, a military colonel, lieutenant colonel, thinking they’re going to kind of boss people around, and they find it disarming when you’re leading with vulnerability and you’re leading with, you know, ways to communicate and trying developing psychological safety to make decisions. It’s almost more important and more valuable to them to see that.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:00Would you say that as far as the responsiveness and, you know, the team kind of trusting you, have you seen that more impactful on the civilian side because you’re working so closely with maybe someone who’s disarmed by it, or more so on the military side because you know they’re kind of used to that already?Dr. Vik Bebarta 31:19It’s a good question. I think the, on the civilian side, they find it very empowering, and like you said, disarming, and has a lot of credibility to them. On the civilian side, what is very unique— and that’s why I believe strongly in military-civilian partnerships, because what I can bring from the civilian side to the military, when I look at changing policy and practice, and education, training and training combat medics, whether they’re, you know, our pararescue men or whether they’re you know IDMTs or 68 Whiskeys or 18 Deltas, is how the civilian aspects work, and what doesn’t or doesn’t work, what technologies, what communication, what innovations work? And bringing them into leadership styles on the military, I think that confluence is very important. And that, to me, the military civilian partnerships are very important. It’s the reason why we’re working with the Army Surgeon General’s Office to bring together a big partnership for the Army, and we’re doing one for the Air Force Academy as well. At CU, taking the best of health care delivery and health care leadership on the CU/UCHealth side to the military, the Army, and the Army is going to bring the best of military leadership in skill training for combat care to the to the civilian community. It’s the nice— it’s the perfect mix of both. I think it’s really important to look forward, as we look to our near peers, you look to these future battle scenarios that we’re going to have, we must bring the best out of the civilian care and our military care together, at least in medicine.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:49Well, I was going to ask how you were bringing things from the civilian side to the military side, but you already answered that. So, way to think ahead of what I was thinking. You know, I want to talk about— you have a son at the Academy. Class of 29. You know, when we think about legacy, and, you know, what you’re doing in the medical field, is almost its own legacy because you’re creating things and doing things now that, well, you did it 10 years ago. You sped up, you know, when I think about the burn care, et cetera. Like you’re you’ve been building a legacy in this space. What does it mean to you to have a cadet at the Academy, and how are you building that legacy and kind of sharing what you’ve learned through him?
Dr. Vik Bebarta 33:26Yeah, one: Don’t think about legacy. We got a lot of work to do right now, so we’re still looking forward. But I am proud and excited for him. He chose his path to come to the Air Force Academy with many options, and what I did say is, and I’ve told him this, is that, you know, “This is not, you know, my path. This is your path.” And I want him to choose his own path in whichever direction he wants to go. I also said, “You should take as many experiences as you can.” And one thing that I, you know, would have learned back to my 18-year-old self is the Academy provides so many opportunities and experiences that we’ve all benefited from. I didn’t take advantage of all of them, and I had— I didn’t have a plan B. I had plan A, which is to get through the Academy, to study hard, I boxed for a few years, and to go and to move in whatever it would take me. I think in hindsight, having that diverse experience of opportunities that the Academy offers, and so many more now than we had, that would make me a better leader, a better doctor, whatever he wants to do, pilot, cyber, you know, whatever he wants to do, physical therapist, you know, whatever he chooses to do in his future career, and I wish I had done a better job with that.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:38Do you think that, and I— with me also having cadets at the Academy, part of it’s like, “Oh, it’s Mom or Dad saying it.” But do you think that that has resonated with him? Has he kind of taken that and tried to explore different things?Dr. Vik Bebarta 34:50Yes, I think he definitely has taken that to heart. I think he’s working hard, he’s studying hard, he’s joining different clubs, probably too many clubs, which is OK. But I’m proud of that. I’m proud of him taking chances, taking risk, choosing to be vulnerable in different situations, and he’s mentoring others. He really aspires to lead. He wants to be a cadre so he can lead others. He wants to be a mentor and a coach to others, and that’s where I think the Academy does a really good job. And I could see him very focused on service and helping others, and I’m pretty proud of that. I think I’m pretty proud of what he’s chosen to do in whatever direction. And that’s what I’ve said to him and to other cadets as well: is that there is not a straight path. There’s different ways to get where you want to go, and I think, you know, try not to stick with the path, but stick with the mission and the service, and the, you know, organizations change, commanders change, commandants and superintendents change, but what continues the path through is your service and where you get there. And so, if he can continue to focus on that, then he’ll find his way, whatever it is, and all these cadets will, and it will not be straightforward. Mine was not. I have a very iconoclastic approach, very nontraditional to get where I’m at. But that made me a better leader today, accepting those challenges and being vulnerable and taking those chances and risk in things I didn’t think I’d be good at that are sure helping me now.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:19Well, that is really helpful. I think hearing how you might suggest, you know, our current and up-and-coming leaders, our cadets, et cetera, approach some of those ways now. I’m curious how you, as a ’94 graduate, what are you doing now to be better every day as a leader?Dr. Vik Bebarta 36:35I tell you what, I think being a leader now is important as it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago in the Academy, and learning to grow is key. So for me, two things really important: It’s beginner’s mind, which means staying curious in my conversations with folks that work with me, my patients, their families, learning what they need. That beginner’s mind and curiosity is really important. Secondly, I firmly believe around obstacles isthe way, and I think that sort of stoicism and that ability to know it’s not going to be straight, it’s going to be curved, there’s going to be challenges, and not going to work out that way, and that’s OK. So those things are really important for me. You know, the third thing is just around sort of holistic personal growth, and that’s around reading. That’s around now getting seven hours of sleep, working out, staying fit and taking care of yourself. You take care of yourself, you can take care of your people. You take care of your people, you take care of your family. I think those things are really important for me. You know, some of the principles around being curious as a leader, being vulnerable as a leader, being confident and being humble, I think all tied together. I think they’re a loop, and those are really important as leaders to grow, but really continue to grow and lead. Take chances and take risk with your people. I think that’s hard sometimes, even though we came from the military and a combat experience, sometimes it can be fearful to do that, but I always say, you know, weighing more not about your setbacks, but your comebacks. So that means taking some risk and then realizing that you’ll be better for it going forward.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:14I’m a visual listener and learner, and so when you said it’s a loop, I literally started to see what you were talking about. You know, about being vulnerable, about being confident, about being compassionate, about taking risks, being confident. Like, I think that’s really helpful, and you never know what the moment calls for, and so having that ability to you know loop around is really fascinating. This has been wonderful. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you’d love to share with our listeners and viewers?Dr. Vik Bebarta 38:41You know, one thing for us, our tagline for our Department of Emergency Medicine, tying back to this loop of humility and curiosity and vulnerability and competence, is, you know, we say, you know, we’re caring boldly, leading bravely, is how our tagline is. And that, to me, can be applied to several things in leadership. But for us, for example, caring boldly is taking care of that patient at 3 in the morning after that gunshot wound or accident at their most vulnerable time, which is hard to do, and then leading bravely then to us is that next week looking back and say, “How could I have done that better?” And being vulnerable to say, you know, “I think I could have done that better.” And that happened to me a lot when we were deployed and we’re taking care of these casualties. Or 18, 19 years old, learning as we go, and improving care as we go, and making sure that we’re better leaders the next day, the next hour, the next month. That continuous personal growth is important, and that’s what I espouse to our current leaders, to my kids, and to our cadets and young leaders in this space as well.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:46Vik, this has been amazing. I am so grateful for your time today, for you sharing your story, even dipping into having a cadet here and how you’ve even shared that with him as well. I think some of the things that really stood out to me, and I’ll share it with our viewers and listeners as well. You know, I think when you talked about range earlier in that book that you, know you, read, being able to understand the things that you can take from different sides of your experiences, finding those best practices and galvanizing them, and then sharing them with others who maybe haven’t experienced them I think is really powerful. I love, I think, how you lead with vulnerability, but you do it in a confident way, right? I don’t— it’s not coming from a victim mentality, or you’re coming from, “I can be in this space with you, and I understand. But I’m confident that I can help you,” right? And I think that’s really powerful for leaders to hear. And just, I really appreciate how you really approach this with just such humility and just such energy. And it’s been a wonderful conversation. Thank you.Dr. Vik Bebarta 40:40Yeah, thank you. It’s been a great opportunity to be here. You’ve done some amazing work, bringing some great leaders here together. I’m really honored to be one of those folks that get a chance to talk with you.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:50Well, thank you. And if you know of others who are in their leadership journeys, especially not just in medicine, but this is one way to really look at that, be sure to bring them to our Long Blue Leadership podcast series. You can get there by going to usafa.org/longblueleadership. You’ll hear from Dr. Col. Vik Bebarta, Class of 1994, and many others. As always, we appreciate you listening to us. I’m Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99, and we’ll see you next time on Long Blue Leadership.
 
KEYWORDSVik Bebarta, Dr. Vik Bebarta, Long Blue Leadership podcast, Air Force Academy graduates, USAFA Class of 1994, military leadership, leadership development, leadership lessons, combat medicine, battlefield medicine, emergency medicine, University of Colorado School of Medicine, CU Anschutz, Center for Combat Medicine and Battlefield Research, military medicine innovation, combat casualty care, military healthcare leadership, physician leadership, leading through adversity, leadership under pressure, adaptive leadership, purpose-driven leadership, servant leadership, leadership through humility, vulnerable leadership, psychological safety, military to civilian transition, military civilian partnerships, trauma care innovation, speed of need, medical innovation, Sgt. 1st Class Alwyn Cashe, Medal of Honor, Iraq War, Balad Iraq, leadership through service, continuous improvement, curiosity in leadership, Air Force Reserve, leadership and resilience, caring boldly leading bravely, Long Blue Line, Naviere Walkewicz.
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 

Scott Kirby ’89 grew one of the world’s largest airlines by doing something many leaders struggle with: changing his mind.
“When the facts change, I change.”
SUMMARYFrom anticipating the impact of COVID before most experts to making bold bets when others pulled back, Kirby shares why adaptability, curiosity and a willingness to challenge assumptions are essential leadership traits.
SCOTT'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
Lead with Vision, Not Just ManagementManagement ensures compliance; leadership inspires people to believe in a shared destination.
Practice “No Excuses”Whether or not a setback is fair or your fault, take responsibility for addressing it.
Build a Complementary TeamBring in people whose strengths offset your weaknesses.
Look for Intellectual Creativity.Seek people who can simplify complex situations and find better ways to do things.
Change Your Mind When the Facts ChangeDon’t cling to an old position just because you’ve already committed to it.
Take Calculated Risks — and Plan Your Off-ramps.Pursue opportunities when the potential reward outweighs the risk, while preparing alternatives if things go wrong.
Keep LearningReading across subjects and viewpoints can help you connect ideas others may miss.
Make Space to ThinkProtect time for reflection and decision-making instead of filling every day with meetings.
Listen to Understand, Not Just to Agree.Invite input, especially from more junior people, and make sure the team feels heard — even when you choose a different path.
Stay Open to Unexpected Opportunities Love Your WorkA rigid career plan can make you miss a path you might find more meaningful.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 — Introduction: Scott Kirby and the “no excuses” principle
00:01:18 — Arriving at the U.S. Air Force Academy and aspiring to become a fighter pilot
00:03:13 — Childhood, family and the opportunities that shaped Kirby
00:06:40 — Leadership versus management — and building a shared vision at United
00:10:24 — Choosing a complementary executive team and practicing “no excuses”
00:15:05 — Accountability, empathy and doing the right thing
00:18:18 — Changing course when facts shift: lessons from COVID and other crises
00:22:14 — Calculated risk, off-ramps and United’s pandemic-era aircraft orders
00:26:35 — Reading widely, connecting ideas and questioning experts
00:33:11 — Applying lessons from books to suppliers and company culture
00:37:37 — United’s next vision: using technology and AI to reduce travel stress
00:43:23 — Career advice, family life and making time for what matters
00:47:06 — Listening, inviting dissent and closing remarks
 
ABOUT SCOTT
BIO
Scott Kirby ’89 is CEO of United Airlines and a longtime leader in the commercial aviation industry. He joined United in 2016 as president and was named CEO in 2020. Before joining United, Kirby served as president of American Airlines and US Airways and held leadership positions at America West Airlines. He began his career at the Pentagon after graduating from the U.S. Air Force Academy with degrees in computer science and operations research and later earned a master’s degree in operations research from George Washington University.
Throughout his career, Kirby has developed a leadership approach grounded in analytical thinking, accountability, adaptability and trust. He credits the U.S. Air Force Academy with instilling discipline and a “no excuses” mindset that continues to shape how he leads, while his early work alongside experienced economists at the Pentagon helped develop the problem-solving approach he carried into aviation. As United’s CEO, Kirby emphasizes listening to employees closest to the work, building teams with complementary strengths and creating an organization its employees are proud to represent.
CONNECT WITH SCOTT KIRBY
LINKEDIN |  UNITED AIRLINES
 
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Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org
Please note: we are only considering USAFA graduates as guests at this time.
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AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIPAND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS
 
 
FULL TRANSCRIPTOUR SPEAKERSGuest, Scott Kirby ’89, CEO United Airlines  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz 0:02Scott Kirby has been known to make a hard right when everyone else has turned left. But today’s lesson isn’t just about going against the grain. It’s about weighing possibilities, challenging assumptions and being ready to change your mind if the facts shift. His guiding leadership principle: no excuses. I’m Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. I’m joined today with Scott Kirby, USAFA Class of ’89, CEO of United Airlines. Prior to joining United, he was the president of American Airlines and U.S. Airways, which spans now a career of 30 years in the airline industry. We’re going to talk about that. His early days were at the Pentagon in operations research, working with some of the most brilliant economists, which probably shapes some of the way you do things today. But you can see he’s Team Air Force today.
Scott Kirby 0:53Exactly.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:53
We’ve got matching bombers on.
 
Scott Kirby 0:54Looking good.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:56That’s right. So we’re going to have some fun today. Thank you for being here.
Scott Kirby 0:58Glad to be here. Looking forward to it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:00Wonderful. So this is not new to you. You were on so many interviews: Bloomberg, CNBC, Face the Nation, all of that, and you’re the expert in the room on aviation and leadership. Today, we want to take a little bit more and peel more into your personal leadership journey. So I’d like to start, Scott, in the summer of 1985. Tell me about the young man who showed up in Colorado Springs.
Scott Kirby 1:21It’s a very different person. I was 17 years old. I had decided for many years before that I wanted to be a fighter pilot, and so I came here intending to be a fighter pilot. Amazingly, the first time I ever got on an airplane was when I flew here to the Air Force Academy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:37Oh, wow!
 
Scott Kirby 1:38I’d never set foot on an airplane before that. I do remember landing at the Colorado Springs Airport. I don’t know what they do now, but back then, there were cadets, upperclassmen, that met you off the airplane. I think they waited until they got to the bus to start screaming. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:52They were still smiling then at the airport, probably.
Scott Kirby 1:54Yeah, I don’t really, I don’t remember that. But I remember being on the bus and like, “Holy cow, what is going on?” And then getting dumped out, you know, getting dumped in here. But, and you know, the first couple weeks were a shock to the system, were hard. But, you know, it was probably within the first week or two you start to realize that the people that you’re meeting and the experiences you’re going through, just basic training and out in Jacks Valley,  are going to be— you know, maybe I didn’t realize it then, but the people that are the best friends, you know, still my best friends and, you know, I like, last weekend went to breakfast with my freshman roommate.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:35Oh, I love that.
 
Scott Kirby 2:36One of my favorite stories at United Airlines when I first showed up, I would do, I still do, in fact, I’m doing one later today — captain leadership. I go talk to all the captains when they upgrade to captain and at the back of the room was someone that I recognized. But you know, I meet so many people, and he walked up to me and he says, "Do you remember me?” And I recognized him, but I hadn’t immediately placed him. I looked down and saw Braxton, and like, “Braxton, we were at Jacks Valley together!” You know, and so you know the connections you make with people is one of the best things, you know, about here, and the experiences that you go through are so unique compared to what other people do. And you know that’s how it started for me in summer of ’85.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:13Oh my goodness, I love that. And I’m imagining, you know, coming to the Air Force Academy. You said you want to be a fighter pilot, so obviously that was something in your, you know, you’re aspiring for. As a young boy, were you always into things like, you know, going fast, you know sports? Like, what were you like as a boy?
Scott Kirby 3:29Yeah, I think— I like, I love sports. Before I decided I was going to be a fighter pilot, I thought I was going to be a professional athlete.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:38OK. Which sport? It didn’t matter?
Scott Kirby 3:41I preferred football, but I like all sports. But, you know, I realized I wasn’t going to be a professional athlete earlier than I realized I wasn’t going to be a fighter pilot.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:51Sometimes it’s good to learn things early.
 
Scott Kirby 3:52But, yeah. But I guess, I mean, I did always like— I’ve always been aggressive, I guess. You say go fast, but aggressive. And I grew up in a small town, Rowlett, Texas. I had two great parents. Like, I have the jackpot on parents. A mom, we had five brothers and sisters, but you know, she didn’t work and stayed home. And, like, her life— I remember in fourth grade, a teacher told me that she was going to call my mom because I was arguing with the teacher, and I told her, "Well, you can, but you’re the one that’s going to be in trouble,” which is what happened. My dad spent every weekend with me, you know, out hunting, fishing, golfing. The amount of time they gave was pretty incredible. And then my mom, after the kids got older, at age 40, went back to college and graduated summa cum laude law school and became a lawyer.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:42Amazing! I think that’s always like, it’s always— there’s always the right time to continue to learn and grow. Well, you know, I’ve listened to you recently on a couple of things, and you had mentioned not too long ago that America— I heard you talk about, you love our country, right? We have the best country, and its superpower is freedom, and because it unlocks human potential. Can we jump in, Scott? What’s your superpower, by the way, and how have you unlocked that?
Scott Kirby 5:07I’ll start with the country. It’s unique in the history of human experience. I’m an avid reader. I love history. That’s how I wound up wanting to be a fighter pilot. I love reading about World War II. And, you know, you just read and study or look at what’s happened around the world. In history and today, it is a unique place. It’s— nothing like it has ever existed anywhere around the globe. It’s freedom. It is the place where anyone can do anything, unlike others. And look, some people, it’s harder for some. People start with advantages and disadvantages, but it has more opportunity than anywhere else around the globe. By the way, I think of my own responsibility as giving opportunity to people, and I often tell people like, "We’ll help you get to the first rung on the ladder. From there, it’s going to be up to you.” Right. But I think we have an obligation to help people get to that first rung and give people a chance and really realize the opportunity of this country. And being here at the Academy earlier today, I was up speaking to cadets, and you know it’s inspirational. And I spent a lot of time in D.C. a lot of times with reporters. A lot of these people are sort of pessimists and negative about the country and about the future, and I’m an optimist, and I believe in the country, and I tell often tell them, and I can say it after being there again today, if you just go spend a day at one of the military academy with, you know, 4,000 young men and women who’ve raised their hand and volunteered to serve the country, you’d have faith in the future.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:38Right, you can’t help but be optimistic.
Scott Kirby 6:40Exactly.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:40Wow. So pulling on that that superpower of the country, I think about, you know, all of the lives that you have the opportunity— the ability to create opportunities for at United. What would you say is your superpower, and how do you turn that on at United?
Scott Kirby 6:53You know, I think— well, I’m talking about myself, but I think I’m a good leader and I realize that people often confuse management and leadership. They think they’re the same thing, and they are two totally different things. Management is about compliance. It’s about checklists. It’s about, “Did you show up to work on time? Did you go through the checklist?” It’s really important, by the way, especially for our pilots. It’s incredibly important. You do a lot of checklists. Air Force does a lot of checklists. It’s really important. But leadership is about how you make people feel. It’s about inspiration and vision. And, you know, I’m just one person at the 120,000-employee company, but if I can get 120,000 people believing in where we’re going and wanting to go there with me, it’s incredibly powerful. And then they take care of everything else. And so, the job of a leader is actually pretty easy. The job of a leader is to make people, to inspire people, and get them to believe in the vision and where you’re headed, and if you do that, they’re going to take care of everything else.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:51And that sounds wonderful. So I want to pull on how we do that because, you know, when you stepped into United, you know, the years ago, I would say you probably had to create that vision. And so when we think about a lot of our listeners and viewers that are in that context of how do I create that, where did you start? Where did you start first to build that vision and inspiration?
 
Scott Kirby 8:08You know, so I came to United— I knew a lot about United without having been there. It’s funny: When I first got to United, an investor told me that, you know, 15 or 20 years earlier, when I was young in my career, people thought I was an up-and-comer, investors. And I was on an elevator with some of them. Somebody asked me, like— and I was at American West, like, small little America West. “So if you could go to any airline in the world, you know, where would you go?” And I didn’t remember this, but I said United Airlines because it has the most untapped potential. I just thought it was undermanaged, and, you know, had incredible potential, but had been poorly run. And so when I got there, I, like— I’ve the vision that, like, where we are today is just over 10 years since I’ve been there. Where we are today is, like, where I thought we would be in 10 years, and, you know, I said it to people when I first got there. What people often tell me today is, like, they could say, “I remember, like, you coming in, you telling us where we were going to go, and I thought, ‘Well that’s nice for him to say,’ and, ‘Boy, I wish that was true.’” But, like, they’d been there for a long time. They’d seen all the failed promises, and like, there’s no way that’s going to actually happen. But it actually has.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:13That’s right.
 
Scott Kirby 9:14And so, the sort of, the underlying like where the airline would be, I, you know, there’s been additions and modifications, but the general direction was the same. What I think I underappreciated was how powerful it would be to get employees believing in that future. I believed in it, you know? I didn’t— but I didn’t fully appreciate, you know, how much untapped the potential was, how much desire there was to be on the winning team, to be the best. And when they started realizing it was possible and that it was happening, and then it happened, like it’s just, it’s fun and it — and they do amazing things for customers, and, you know, they want to keep winning, and it’s, you know, it’s a flywheel that just keeps getting better and better and better. The more you win, the more you want to win, the harder you’re willing to work. And I knew that that was important, but I didn’t really understand, I think, how much untapped— I knew how much untapped potential was in the route network. I didn’t know how much untapped potential there really was in the people,  but that’s been even bigger.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:24Exponentially, when you think about that. And so I think about, you know, when you said a little bit ago that, you know, you have like the easiest job, right? Because you’re making, like, the big decisions that only you can make. But I’m curious on how do you then choose, maybe, like, your executive team around you? Because they are the ones making those decisions, I think, that are affecting that human potential. How do you do that?
Scott Kirby 10:45So, the first thing I’d say is, I’ve learned that you’ve got to have complementary skills. I have weaknesses, and I need people that complement those weaknesses. If everyone was like me, like I always have, I have lots of ideas, and “let’s do this,” and I’m sort of missing the risk gene in some ways. If everyone was like me, we’d do some amazing stuff together and then we’d probably drive off a cliff. So I need some people that are complementary. And there’s things that I hate to do, like the compliance stuff. Like, I hate it. It’s important to do. Like, we have to have an audit committee. God, I hate going to audit committee. I hope not— Michelle, please don’t listen to this. Michelle, please don’t listen to this. She knows I don’t like it. But I need people that are complementary, so that’s point one. And then I’m going to say two other things. No. 2 is I have absolute requirement that everyone on my executive team buys into “no excuses.” I think it is the most important lesson I learned as a cadet. It is perhaps the most important life lesson you can learn. Bad stuff is going to happen in your life, in your career, in business. Often not your fault. Sometimes not fair. Often not fair. It is irrelevant whether it’s your fault, whether it’s fair or not. Irrelevant. It’s your responsibility to overcome it. And if you can have that mentality, you can just do anything. And, you know, like people can come to me and say, "I have a huge problem. This is happening. I don’t even know how to fix it.” And I’m going to be with them to try to help and try to figure it out and fix it. But you cannot come to me and make excuses, you know? And my previous employer, the person that was the chief operating officer at the time, I had banned him from using the word “weather” in my presence. Just couldn’t use it because it’s just too easy of an excuse. And so one requirement is that you buy into the no excuses philosophy, and then a second thing that I, another thing that I really value that I think is probably the most rare talent, is true intellectual creativity, and by that I mean being able to look at a situation, simplify it, and say, "Can we do this better?”  But those two go together. People that can do that are also really good at looking at things and seeing them simply, instead of making things incredibly complicated. Looking at the world through a simpler lens and figuring out how to do it better, and not everyone does that. Not everyone on my team can do that. You know, I think it’s like one in 1,000 people that can do that and do it well. And you need a few. You don’t need tons of those people around, but you need a few of those people around to drive kind of creativity. But mostly, I try to build a good team. That complementary point goes back: a team that works well together. I’ll say another thing that I do that’s I think different than most is my executive team: We meet three times a week for two, we have two hours scheduled three times a week, and, you know, together. We’re not doing PowerPoints. On Mondays, we have the first 30 minutes is, like, what happened last week. Other than that, there’s no PowerPoints. We’re talking, talking about what’s going on. Meetings for me are about conversation and bringing everything up, and so we’re all on the same page. We know each other, friends. We can have debates. You know, it’s a different environment than most companies have.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:03I think that is, that’s fascinating, actually, because when you think about time and bringing that team together that often, you don’t see that everywhere. But it seems like it’s working out very well.
Scott Kirby 14:12It has worked well, and it started during COVID. I became the CEO writes during COVID, and it was seven days a week. And I can remember the first day that we missed a meeting. That was an existential risk. The first day that we missed a meeting, was— I had a call from our head of HR, which part of her, she’s sort of a consigliere. She’s, when I’m doing something wrong, she’s generally the one delegate to call me and tell me Scott, you got to remember. So I also know to listen to her when she calls me. But she called me and she said, “Scott, you know, Sunday is Mother’s Day.” I’m like, “Yeah, I know. I got something for Kathleen. I’m gonna call my mom.” I wasn’t getting it. “Do you think maybe we should cancel that ET meeting on Mother’s Day?” Like, “Oh, that’s a really good point. I should have thought of it. But thank you for calling me.” But anyway, that’s the first day that we canceled it. Right. OK. Now we do three days a week. Now we do three days a week.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:06I love that. Well, let’s talk about the no excuses, sir or ma’am. Right. Either way that it’s going, one of the things you always talk about is you know taking well safety first. Like there’s no question that I hear Scott Kirby, it’s safety first. But then also, like, taking care of our people and our customers. How do you walk the line of no excuses, sir or ma’am, and not also the not being empathetic because I feel like if I’m telling you no excuses, like, I also want to be thoughtful of like how we got there and grace and that sort of thing.
Scott Kirby 15:36Well, I also think about doing it, doing the right thing. So my test for you know like talking to an employee about something is, am I going to be if they don’t like a policy or something we do? Am I going to feel good about telling them why? And if I can feel good about telling them why, then I’m happy doing it. Even if they don’t like the policy, I’m happy doing it. Like one easy example, I get lots of questions from employees about changing the boarding priority for standby flight benefits. And I tell all of them, like, “Look, you probably have a good point, but it’s a zero-sum game.” If I make the flight benefits work better for a retiree, then I’m taking it away from active employees, or vice versa, whatever it is. And that’s a zero-sum game, and everyone has a good point. So I’m simply not going to change it. That kind of generally, you know, and you need to be able to explain it. And so policies, you know, I’m willing to talk to employees about anything, and I think they know that. And because of that, that’s my standard. I think the other thing is like I, you know, I’m a positive person, and I’m also, I guess, intolerant of you know whining. And if I if somebody’s complaining about something that I don’t think is a fair complaint, I’ll tell them I don’t think that’s a fair complaint. That’s right. And I’ll be straightforward with them. And so I get a lot less of it than most people. You know, over 99% of my feedback with employees and customers, employees and customers is positive, and you know I’m focused on the positive, so I’m not the kind of person that you know people are likely to come up and you know complain about you know whatever but also try to do the right thing. You know, like if I walk into a break room and it’s a crappy break room, like, somebody in the management team is going to be in trouble. Like, I don’t need somebody to tell me, like, we should have a nice break room for people. Like, I don’t need to be told that. And if you set that standard, like, and people feel like you’re doing the right thing all around, you’re just not creating an environment where most people are going to complain about the day to day because they know you’re trying to do the right thing and they see evidence of it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:45Yes. Well, asking for all the parent listeners, does this translate to home as well? The no excuses, sir or ma’am?
Scott Kirby 17:51Oh, I try. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of excuses, but I do have seven kids, and so I have a fun home life with the kids. Although I’m more primarily the fun play with them, less the disciplinarian. Though when I am the disciplinarian, they’re more likely to listen because it’s more unusual.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:17
Right. They’re like, "What’s happening?” Oh goodness. Well, I’d like to talk a little bit about you know the way that you lead, because you said a little bit earlier, you know, you have a complementary team because you’re not afraid of risk, and you, they’re calculated. Like you’ve taken a lot of data from a lot of different sources, and you’re willing to pivot rather quickly in flexibility in your decisions. How does that work with your executive team and those that have to then implement kind of that rapid changing?
Scott Kirby 18:41Yeah. Well, first, I do think you know one of my strengths is I can do a 180 in a second. It does not take me time. When the facts change, I change. And I can give a good example. COVID was a good example. I give good example.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:58Please give us an example. We love it.
Scott Kirby 18:59Well, I mean, COVID, you know, was an example where everyone, you know, thought, oh, this is going to be like SARS, you know. It’s in China, you know. It’s not going to be a big deal. And I was following it closely, but I kind of thought the same. That’s what all the experts said. I thought the same. And then I can remember waking up on a weekend morning, and the then-so-called novel coronavirus had showed up in northern Italy and killed several people. And you know I read extensively. I’m better at connecting dots than most people, and that proved you know they’d asymptomatic. So there was asymptomatic transfer because some of the people that died hadn’t been in China.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:34Right. Right.
Scott Kirby 19:36Asymptomatic transfer, highly contagious, deadly. OK. That was a pandemic, and if it was already killing people in Italy, it had already spread around the globe. I called our chief financial officer that, and none of the experts thought that. At least any that I saw or read. The consensus was not that. Said this is global pandemic. We got to get ahead of it. You know, one of the things we did, we went raised $2 billion unsecured at 3% interest two days before the NBA walked off the court and the world shut down. Would have been impossible. We also had a leadership, all of our top 2,000 people, in Chicago that week. And normally I’d be sitting out in the audience, and you know, and that week I had a little room, and people still tell stories about it. And I was calling different groups in, and I’m sitting at a table, and I had a little speech. “This is a global pandemic. Nobody’s figured it out yet. We’re going to get ahead of the curve. Here’s what we’re doing.” And just shocking, you know, people were just walking out shocked. They’re like, "Is he crazy? But that was, you know, an example. But I could change my mind about anything when the facts change. That does— is sometimes hard for my team because we’re going one way and like, "Oh, like, well, that was wrong. Now we’re going a different way.” And I can be all in, and then all in, all in in a different direction. I mean, we don’t do that too much. It’s usually something in the world that happens. You know, this year the war in Iran was one of those. Like, you know, the beginning I bought into the consensus that this is going to be quick and it’s going to be over, but you know, it started Feb. 28, and I think it was March 11 when I got our team together and said, "This is going to last indefinitely, I think. I hope I’m wrong. I think this is going to last indefinitely, and we’re going to plan for high, really elevated oil prices all the way through the end of 2027.” So another, you know, almost full two full years, and you know, sadly that, at least so far, has turned out to be right. But it’s the ability, it’s an ability to see the facts, you know. And all the experts said I was wrong, by the way. At that point, like I met with several expert groups, you know, and they said worst case over by the end of March. I met with the same people in April, and they said worst case end of April. Like you guys said end of March. I think you’re wrong. But anyway, the ability to quickly react to changing circumstances that goes along with no excuses. You know, you’re not putting your head in the sand. Like, when the circumstances change, neither one of those things were our fault. Right, but they had a huge potential impact. And best thing you can do is accept it. And you know, instead of trying to go through the seven stages of grief, or how many stages there are, and wait to get to acceptance, like, accept it and deal with it. And we’ve been really good at that.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:15So, have you always, even as, you know, a growing leader, have you always looked at things this way? Even as a kid, we’re just taking in a lot of facts and then coming to decisions or is this something you’ve developed over time?
Scott Kirby 22:26I think I was always, I always thought that way. I think no excuses helped me because it helped sort of codify not making excuses. I probably was more prone to making excuses about things, but also I also have a mathematical mind and particularly understand risk and reward. Yes, it’s another thing that most executives miss. They understand risk, but they see risk around every corner. And I tell people the biggest mistake most people make in their career is never making a big mistake because they never take a chance. And like all the big decisions, none of them are 100%. Like, if it’s 100%, somebody else has already done it. Right. And so the big decisions always have some risk associated with them. But figuring out when the risk, when the reward skews really positive, and figuring out your off ramps, you know, for those risks, and, you know, that’s you know another that that’s thing something that most people that are executives don’t do. They’re afraid to take risks. They’re afraid to make a mistake, and so they just sort of, you know, waddle in mediocrity.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:36I love because I’ve actually listened to you say that before, and I think you talked about having options, right? And so when you know if you take this big risk, you have options A, B, C, D. So if it doesn’t go well, at least you know your offshoot has already been planned, and so that’s how you mitigate some of that risk.
Scott Kirby 23:48Yeah, and that’s, you know, like, you know, one of the, you know, one of the biggest decisions we made during COVID, you know, after— first everyone was wrong about being, but then everyone decided, “Oh, this travel demand is never going to recover.” All the experts, like literally, like I’m not aware of a single so-called expert that didn’t think travel demand was going to be permanently impaired, most of them thought by 50 percent. So airlines are going to go out of business. They’re going to have to fly a lot less, you know, even if they survive. And literally every single global long-haul airline in the world, except United Airlines, permanently retired some of their parts of their wide-body fleet because all the experts said that; that was the consensus. And I looked at that. We looked at that. Like first, I thought it was wrong. I thought air travel demand. I thought COVID was going to be deep and last a long time, but it would travel demand would end, and travel demand would recover.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:35Did you think that because of what you’d been reading and other things that you had, or why did you think?Scott Kirby 24:39It just none of it made sense to me. Like…
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:41Human nature…
Scott Kirby 24:42Because human nature wasn’t going to change. That’s the point. We were going to figure out a way out of COVID. We were going to be on lockdown until it was safe. But all pandemics in global history had ended, and we had better science today than they had.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:53That’s right.
Scott Kirby 24:54With the Black Plague, like it was eventually going to end. And when it did, like human nature will not have changed. And, like. it just made no sense at all to me that people thought it could change. And, like, surveys are a terrible way to make decisions. Like, if you survey somebody when they’re afraid of travel: “You’re going to travel again in the future?” They say no. Like, totally irrelevant because they’re afraid right now. But they’re not going to be afraid when it’s over. So we thought, you know, that it was— I thought travel demand would recover. But also I looked at it like this is the best, literally in the history of the aviation industry, the best risk-reward there will ever be because everyone else is shrinking and turning left. And I even told our board, like, we did the biggest aircraft orders in history in the middle of COVID. But I told our board, like, we don’t have to be right. We just have to be not totally wrong because everyone else is shrinking. And it was also the kind of thing that if travel— if it was totally wrong, like, Boeing wasn’t going to cram the airplanes down our throat. We’d find a way out, so we did have off ramps. But just the reward skewed so heavily because everyone else was afraid and afraid to make— there might have even been some of them that thought travel demand would recover, but the implications to most of them were all the experts say it’s not going to recover. “If I go order airplanes, I might get fired, and I’m wrong, I might get fired.” And so they were afraid to do it. They didn’t do it, and it’s just like, those moments happen rarely, but you got to be willing to jump on them. Like, when they happen, you got to jump on, make a big bet. I’ve done a lot of gambling in my life.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:22We might have read about that too.
 
Scott Kirby 26:24That’s when you put a big, make a big bet. You know, like it’s not guaranteed, but, you know, like you got a 98% chance you’re going to win the hand. Put as much money on the table as you can get on the table. Like, get it all out there.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:36Yes, gosh, you know, I think there’s probably a lot of people that are kicking themselves now, you know, for not having looked things differently as well. When I think about some of our leaders that are joining us, and whether viewing or listening, you know, you talk about making time to be able to ingest all that data. You read for three hours a day, right? I know you’re walking, you’re doing all the things to do that. How do we help our young leaders find time when they’re still kind of working their way up the chain?Scott Kirby 26:59Yeah. So my personal calendar partly is no more than four hours of meetings a day, like—Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:07Period?Scott Kirby 27:08Period. OK. I mean, there occasionally days, but certainly averages. I probably average two to three hours of meetings a day.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:13OK. That’s unheard of everywhere else.
 
Scott Kirby 27:15And because my job is not to work hard, it’s to think hard. And I’m thinking United 24 hours a day. Like, I literally, last night, I’ve been thinking about JFK. We’re going to get slots back in JFK, and I’m trying to get more. And like, I had, like, dreamt about JFK, and woke up this morning like, “Wait, did we get another 50 slots in JFK, or did I dream that?”
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:36That’s good though.
 
Scott Kirby 27:37It took me a few— but I’m thinking about it all the time. And the point of, you know, one of the things that I’m curious about stuff, and so I read, and I read extensively fiction, nonfiction, periodical, you know, the newspaper, but magazines. I don’t get my news from the internet. Like I don’t read the news on the internet. I can talk about why that’s a bad way to view it. I also I also don’t get it from AI. Like I don’t want watered down summaries. But when you do that, you read so extensively, you can connect dots that other people don’t see, because you’ve got this broad, you know, base of just random knowledge from just reading all kinds of stuff. Like, I had happened, you know, over the Christmas break in 2019, right before COVID, just happened to have read a book about the history of global pandemics and how they had shaped societies. It really wasn’t about pandemics, but it went all the way back, you know, to like 3,000 years ago — a pandemic that I didn’t even know had happened in China and how it shaped, you know, the Ming Dynasty that was to follow, and, you know, how the Black Death, you know, and how all these had shaped society and… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:44All the opportunities that, yeah…
Scott Kirby 28:45Yeah, and the changes that had happened, and so, like, just like— and it wasn’t specifically about the, you know, and also about how people had reacted to it, and like a year before I’d read a history of vaccines and how vaccines and, like, how lifesaving changing they’ve been. But guess what, throughout history, every single new vaccine has a whole group of anti-vaxxers, of people that are opposed to the vaccine, 100% of the time. And then, like, 20 years later, they’re all OK with it. But every— because it’s new, right? It’s new. It’s human nature. It’s new. So a lot of people knew it’s bad. And but I’ve read stuff like that, and when you’ve read stuff like that, it just puts you in a position to see things that other people don’t see. And by the way, also be careful of experts. You know, especially in business. Experts — I now codified this in my own head. Experts live within two standard deviations, meaning everything in the world happens— you know, 95% of the time, they’re pretty good. The tails, when the extreme happens, they force fit it back into what they’re used to, and they’ve all only lived in two standard deviations, and so they force fed it back into the average, and so they and all the interesting stuff happens at the tails. All the big things happen in the tails, and the experts almost always will miss it. So be really careful of experts, especially in those two plus standard deviations.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:05That’s right, and I’m really glad you walked me through that because I was a social science major. I did not walk the same analytical line through the Academy, so I appreciate you doing that. But I’m, so I’m thinking about how do you choose what you’re reading? Like you just happen to pick those up, and it was happenstance, or, like, is there something that catches you?Scott Kirby 30:18Yeah, that’s hard finding the best stuff. So my reading habits, I read— I started as a cadet. I read The Wall Street Journal cover to cover.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:25You’ve done this since you were a cadet?
Scott Kirby 30:27Yeah. Oh, I’ve started— I’ve enjoyed like three hours a day when I was a kid.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:30Oh my god!
 
Scott Kirby 30:30I wasn’t allowed to watch— 30 minutes of TV was all I was allowed to watch when I was a kid, so I’ve read extensively my whole life. But as a cadet, I started reading The Wall Street Journal cover to cover. Ten or 15 years ago, I started reading The New York Times. I don’t read it cover to cover, but probably 10 to 12 articles. Get both sides of articles. Yeah, and I read the opinion pages in both. You know, I tend to agree with the with The Wall Street Journalmore, but I prefer to read stuff that I don’t agree with, particularly on opinion pieces.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:58It gives you some thoughts.
 
Scott Kirby 30:59And sometimes they’re right. Sometimes they have really good points, but I want to understand both sides. Like, it’s part of the problem with reading on the internet. All you’re doing is reading stuff you already think. Like, well, that’s a waste of time. Like, you already think it. So I don’t do that. But the harder thing is finding books to read, because I read about two a week. So I get them from all— I get recommendations from people. I got, you know, I actually found now, one friend, a guy named Scott Wallace that lives in Dallas, he’s the only person I know that reads more than me and he’s the best book recommender I’ve ever met. Yeah, very similar, and he reads a lot. Like, he gives me great book recommendations.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:35So what is what are you reading right now, or I should say today?
Scott Kirby 31:39So, I usually am reading two books at once. I’m usually reading a fiction and a nonfiction. So, right now I’m reading a book called Fire Agent. I don’t remember where— I think I got it maybe from either The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal. That’s one place I get them. But by the way, if I also find an author I like, I read everything that they’ve written until I get to a point where I sometimes I don’t like them, but you know, read something that’s great. But that’s one example. So I think I got it from one of those, Fire Agent. It’s pretty good. It’s not great, but it’s pretty good. About two thirds of the way through it. And then I’m reading the Eagle and the Lion, which is a more ancient history of Iran, really. But it goes all the way back to the Roman and the Sassanians, you know, and, you know, sort of, they were on opposite ends, but you know, to cultures and civilizations that you know were strong for a long time. How that— I started reading a lot about Iran. I’d already done a lot after the war in Iran started, but this is just— And then because I did that, other people recommended to me. This is pretty good. OK, but it goes even further back, and you know, it’s actually amazing to read about Persia, Iran, and, you know, the incredible— like it’s Iran and China, you know? Probably the two most, the longest, sort of ,I would call continuous civilizations. You know, incredible history. You know, incredible educated work for— you know, group. You know, sad what’s happened there, but it’s an amazing history to read and understand more about. Amazing people to understand.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:12I just think about you taking this, and do you— Is this part of the United culture? Do, you know, encourage, or is this something that’s required of certain leaders reading?Scott Kirby 33:21So, in a small way. I do. So I read a book that I loved called Apple in China.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:30OK. Apple in China?
Scott Kirby 33:31Apple in China. OK. And the book is— I’m going to take something different away from it. The main premise of the book is sort of about Apple and all that they did in China.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:40Got it.
Scott Kirby 33:40That China is a high palace manufacturer because of Apple. Right. So it’s sort of negative about Apple, and but that’s not the point of the book that I liked as much. It’s how Apple, who I respect immensely, like that’s the company I respect the most of any other company. And one, they’re great at building simple things for customers, and not just simplicity. I said that earlier. I think they’re awesome at it; they’re better than anyone’s ever been. But the second is from this book and how they manage their supply chain. This is really, you know, I think Tim Cook’s specialty. You know, they were— they didn’t just order something; they didn’t just order an airplane like we do from Boeing and wait for it to show up and then complain about it when it’s late. They were in there with them. If there were a problem, they were— it was their responsibility. They were building it, and I just thought it was awesome. And so I made everyone in our leadership ranks in supply chain and technology. I got them copy that book, made them read it, and we’re doing that now with some of our suppliers. There’s been big engine problems with engines that are all around the industry. There’s some 900 aircraft around the globe that are on the ground because of lack of engines, and we’re in with some of our vendors in a way that no one else— I don’t think anyone else ever been on the ground with them, and it was a little hard at first because they think you’re in there to…
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:57Right, why are you in my…
Scott Kirby 34:57…Criticizing, you know? But we’ve made huge progress. A guy named Ankit Gupta has led that for us, and he’s been great, and we’ve started it, you know— and when you can have those deep partnerships, it works better. We, you know, with Starlink, like, you know, they want to do it on both sides. Yes, it’s amazing working with SpaceX and with Starlink on what we’ve been able to do and, like, just real time do stuff. And, but anyway, the Apple in China was sort of for me the motivation for doing— I didn’t read it because I thought… I didn’t think it had anything to do with United Airlines. Just a book that someone recommended to me. I don’t know why I read it, but I read it and it was great. And then this year, my friend Scott Wallace actually recommended this book, Unreasonable Hospitality, which is the story of a guy that with partners that built a restaurant that became the No. 1restaurant in New York, in the world, and it’s his story, and it’s an interesting, engaging story. But it’s about, you know, building the culture and how much all the little things matter to customers. And so I have bought that book for all of my officers, sort of officer rank, top 60 or 70 people at the company, and they all have to read that book. So I occasionally do that with people, but you know those are two examples of I’ve read something, and I’ll also often forward articles you know to people that, you know, “Oh, this is really cool and maybe it has applications for us,” or I just want to learn more about it. Sometimes it’s just learn more about this just because it’s interesting. Like, I have no idea if it has applications to United or not, but it’s interesting, and I want to learn more about it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:29So I think that’s fascinating how you, from the Apple in China, actually took that and brought it into practice. Because I imagine that where you’re seeing that show up is in pride. Like, I can’t imagine how prideful I’d be. Like, I had a hand in fixing this, and it’s better because I was part of it. I think that’s, I mean, a huge…
Scott Kirby 36:47Yeah, that’s part of it. Like, I mean, when I say I have the easiest job of anyone at United, which I really do, because I only have one responsibility to create an airliner, employees are proud of. And they’re different, that means different things to different people. But everybody wants to be on the winning team. You know, for that group, you know, if you’re, that’s a good example. Like if you’re getting beat up by other people at the company that we have all these aircraft on the ground because of engine problems. You know, you can say, "Well, this is the vendor’s fault,” or you could say, "Well, this happened, and here’s what I’m doing to fix it. Like nobody in the airline industry has ever done this before and look how well it’s working. And there’s pride in that. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:19We need some United no excuses, sir.
Scott Kirby 37:22At one point in my career I had a sign that said, "No Excuses, Sir," a little plaque, and they made me take it down. I guess I could do it now, but I don’t. I’ll say it enough that everyone knows it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:36That’s right. That’s right. We’ve adopted it. So you’re constantly taking the information. What are you doing then, I guess, to — maybe this is not the right question — to be better, but you have this growth mindset. What’s next in your vision for United? Like, what’s the next big thing that you are really focused on?
Scott Kirby 37:52So I’ve started with a vision for United to be the best airline in the history of aviation. And, you know, I think we’re not the best at everything, but I think in totality, when you consider, you know, our network, but then you consider the technology, which is by far the best in any airline industry, the service, the reliability, the product that we have on the plane, but in totality we are the best. But I now want us to become one of the best, my most loved consumer brands around the world, and that’s hard for an airline to do because all the stress of travel and you’re part of the stress. Like, even at your best, if you’re perfect, if you’re— which we’re never going to be perfect. Even if we’re perfect, something like 15% of our flights are going to be delayed because of — delayed or canceled — because of weather and air traffic control. And so, how do we say — that’s not an excuse — but how do we say we’re going to overcome that challenge? We’re going to like it’s unsafe, so we’re not going to fly when it’s unsafe, but how do we overcome that? And I think the revolution that we’re going to be able to have is using AI for technology to really communicate with customers in a completely clear, plain-English, transparent way. We’ve started experimenting with it, doing things like sending people pictures of radar maps. You know, “There’s a clear sky in Chicago right now, but your plane has to fly through this line of thunderstorms to the west of Chicago that you can’t see, but it’s at an altitude that it’s unsafe, and so we can’t fly until a thunderstorm passes.” And if we do that, like the NPS scores for those flights are 80 points better than would if we just say it’s weather.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:23Really? Well, I mean, that makes sense to me.
Scott Kirby 39:26Yeah, because now you understand. Otherwise, you think the airlines... And we’re going to roll out — it may be this week, soon — an option for customers today. You know, we other interrupted airlines will say like maybe weather. You got you’re flying back through Denver tomorrow to Bismarck, and there’s forecast for thunderstorms, so check your flight. You know you may want to consider other options. We’re now going to send you something that has on the if you want it on the home screen of the United. You know on the app. Yes. Like here’s three other options. Here’s a couple of flights that are earlier. Here’s a couple flight you know that are later. Here’s you could stand by for you could switch to this one. This one’s already full. But here’s how many people are ahead of you. If you want to stand by for that flight, you can, and we’re ultimately going to, like, be able to put in like here’s the weather forecast for this time of day versus this time of day. This is just there may be weather tomorrow. We’re not certain, but we’re just going to give you information. And I think we can take if we can take that will take the stress out. People understand if you don’t. They get the weather, like they get it. They can’t stand the uncertainty, you know. Or, you know, we don’t, I don’t think we do this, at least not very often. But, like, I’ve flown on other airlines, and like you walk up to the gate, and it says the gate says boarding in one minute, and there’s not a plane at the gate. You’re like, right? What is wrong? Yeah, that’s right. That’s OK.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:46Did our gate move?
Scott Kirby 40:48And so I think getting good at that. So I’ve started telling our team, I, you know, today, your vacation for most people probably begins when you land at your destination airport. I want it to begin when you arrive at your departure airport.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:04That’s right. Like the beginning of that travel experience.
Scott Kirby 41:06Yeah, I want to be, I want United to be good enough that you consider that part of your vacation trip. And you know, another example: We’re going to get to where we can let you— I’ll, I, we talk about premium all the time in the airline business, and I rarely do. I think of travel through the lens of a parent traveling alone with a couple of young kids.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:26This is the nose to tail kind of, right?
Scott Kirby 41:29Nose to tail, yeah. And how do we make it easy if you’re— and I’ve done that. And I get help. And you know, didn’t always get a lot of help in my career, but I get a lot of help. It’s still hard. How do you make it easy to travel with parents, you know, with a parent with young children? You know, this telling them what’s going on is an example. You know we call it every flight has a story. It’s really important. Other examples are things like, you know, the app. You know, we get off an airplane, like, we’ll text you and say we’ll hold your— you have a tight connection, but we’re holding the connection for you. We hold, you know, a few hundred flights every day. We save about 2,000 customer connections every day. Somebody upstairs or over at the Academy had to stop me and like, “You guys, I was going to miss it. The times the flight was late in Munich, and you were-I missed a flight. You held it for me. Like I ran, and you held it for me. I couldn’t believe it.” Like I get those stories all the time. But we’re gonna— we have a goal. We’ve started an experiment with this in Newark right now, where if you’re coming in on an inbound flight and you’re not gonna have time to get food, you can order food and get it delivered to the gate. You can pick it up, walk down to the airplane, even if you’re in coach. Just— and there’s all kinds of ideas like that. And AI is so good at programming. There’s some things that — I don’t know if we’re going to talk about it — there’s some things that AI is ridiculous that, what people think it’s good for, you should not use it for, but AI is incredible at some things and programming and being able to do this kind of stuff, we can do it, and we can do it, you know, quickly in a way that we would have never been able to do it before. It unlocks possibilities that were not, that were impossible before. And we’re going to do that, and I think we’re going to revolutionize what travel feels like on United because we’re going to be able to use technology to take the stress out of travel.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:07That is huge because literally that’s huge. The transparency, taking the stress out. I think I’m excited to see when that happens. I don’t think it’ll be that far out in the future.
Scott Kirby 43:17It’s going to be faster than you would think possible because what you can do with AI programming is pretty incredible.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:23So when I’m thinking about those that are— you’ve had you know years of learning this on the fly and making decisions. If someone is new and they’re up and coming in their leadership, what would some advice you might give to them today?
Scott Kirby 43:36So a couple of career pieces of career advice. I would say, No. 1, don’t have a goal. You know, I started life wanting to be a pressure athlete. Realized that wasn’t going to work. Then I wanted to be a pilot. I came here to be a pilot. Realized I wasn’t going to be a fighter pilot, so I switched. Every big decision in my life was some opportunity that came completely out of left field, completely unexpected, and I made a 90-degree turn on a dime. But if I’d had a plan, I’d have had blinders on and would have missed all of those opportunities. So No. 1, don’t have a plan. No. 2, do something that you love. If you’re watching the clock, you’re not going to be good at it. You know, the last time I had a job in my life was when I was 15 years old and flipping burgers at Sonic. I hated it. It was a job. I was watching the clock. Everything else, like I love what I’m doing. I just said I dream of, I dreamt about it. JFK. Right. Fifty flights today in JFK. I dreamt about it last night because that’s what I’m thinking about, and I love it. And if you like what you do, if you’re passionate about what you’re doing, then you’re just going to be better at it. And so don’t have a plan and do things that you love.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:49Love those. And how do you work in this really important piece that’s called our family? Like, where— how do you navigate, you know, 20 hours of dreaming about the thing that’s not work that you love and the people you love, your family?
Scott Kirby 45:03So usually people ask about that work-life balance. I have seven kids. My day, like I sleep eight and a half hours a night. I read three hours a day. I work out every day. When I’m at home, which is about half the time, half the time on the road, half time at home. Most days, I take the kids to school, to breakfast at school. Our schools, they’re all four, the four that are home are all in the same school now. They have this awesome cafeteria that you can go and eat. Breakfast with kids, I take them every day. I put them to bed at night. Well, it’s called a routine. I get them riled up, and my wife comes behind and complains and puts them to bed, and actually gets them to bed. But I spend lots of time with them. I go out every day. We go out play sports. Great yard and play sports. I spend lots of time. I’m able to do that because I’m really efficient at time management, I don’t waste time in my personal life or my professional life. I’ve talked about meetings. I have a bunch of weird quirks, like I don’t hang my belt up because that’s extra time. I leave it. In fact, my wife, when she we first got married, used to hang my belt up, and I would forget to put a belt on because I didn’t see it. Like my whole bunch of little things, like I don’t, you know, just naturally efficient and don’t waste time. But part of that is I get asked this a lot in groups, and then after saying all that, I say, "How many of you are on social media?” Basically, everybody stands. And I say I would hypothesize that none of you have a work-life balance problem. You may have a social media problem, but if you have time to be on social media. You do not have a work-life balance problem. I also don’t watch TV. Like, a bunch of things that people are doing. Like, you got to choose your time, and I put work and family ahead of social media and TV.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 46:35I like that. Yes, great lessons. So, is there anything today that I didn’t ask that you would hope that we’ve covered?
Scott Kirby 46:41No, this has been fun.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 46:42This has been a lot of fun. Well, Scott, this has been amazing. I already knew that I was gonna learn something, but some of these great nuggets— I think some of my favorites have been you know really just like you said, don’t have a plan, but really be open to seeing what’s coming your way. I think being really open to data and seeking it, not trusting just one thing of information that you’re getting.
 
Scott Kirby 47:04Don’t trust people’s conclusions.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:05Oh, there you go.
Scott Kirby 47:06Listen, look at the facts and look at why they got to that conclusion. Like that’s one thing I say. My wife, you know, she hasn’t been a long time, but I’ve been accused before by people of being not a good listener. Like I say to them is, I’m a great listener. I’m a terrible agreeer. I listen and I ask why, and if I don’t, if your arguments don’t resonate with me, then I don’t agree. But I listen intently, listen intently to the why, instead of the conclusion, and form your own judgment about what the conclusion should be.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:43Amazing. I have one last question. If you could go back and tell young Scott anything now that you know what you know today, what would you tell him?
Scott Kirby 47:50I would go back and talk to myself about how to deal with people. You heard me talk a lot today about how people feel and inspiring people, but when I was young, I thought I knew the answer. I often think I knew the answer. Know the answer today, but when I was younger, I would just like be dismissive of others and like this is what we’re going to do. Let’s move on. And why are we wasting time? And I’ve realized it’s so much more powerful to get other people to have, my goal is to get other people to have ideas. When I have an idea, my goal is to get someone else to have it, to bring people along, and to bring people along in the whole conversation. And I’ve realized that not only is that better for the culture, it’s way better for the decision making because there’s a lot of things I hadn’t thought about. Confident as I was, and there are often actually a lot of times that it moderates or even changes my decision to get that kind of feedback from people, and the further you go in the career, the more important it gets. Because the hardest thing as a CEO is to get people to tell you things when they think you disagree. And so you have to get that to be effective. And just people are afraid to do it, and so part of that is trying to keep your opinion to yourself but also finding ways to elicit feedback from people. And, you know, one of the things I do in complicated decisions is get up everyone in the room, and I, as we talked about, I go around the room and ask each, starting with the most junior people in the room, so that they’re not intimidated. But as you said. What do you think we should do, and why? And it’s often a 50/50 decision at the end. But when you do that, one, I make better decisions because of doing that. But the team dynamics are so much better. And even the people that I wind up going the other way with, you say at the end, like, this is not a— I don’t know if I’m right. This is not a clear. Like there’s good points on both sides. I don’t know what the right answer is, but we got to decide, and we’re going to do this. And if it’s wrong, we’ll switch. But everyone feels heard.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 49:53That’s right.
Scott Kirby 49:54And bought in. It’s just such a better way to manage. And I did not do that when I was young.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 49:58Well, that’s a good lesson in itself, especially because now you’re, you know, you’re more junior, or those that are growing into some of these leadership roles have found their voice earlier, right? And to share it, yeah. So I think that’s wonderful. This has been amazing. Thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely. Today’s conversation with Scott was enlightening in so many ways. I think we can all walk away saying together, no excuses, is something that will bring into our leadership toolbox. But some of the other things that really stood out to me is how he forges the teams around him, making sure that they’re complementing his skills. Right, so looking at where are his weaknesses and how do we fill that with other experts around the room, finding those that can connect the dots with information and being willing to ingest a lot of information. I also really appreciated how he talked about setting a vision and being inspirational, and by bringing people along with those decisions, it that potential completely unlocks. So I think that’s a really worthwhile leadership trait. And then finally, one that really kind of hit the heartstrings, of course, and it kind of ties to not having a plan because it really is about discovering what you love. So by being willing to explore what opportunities are coming your way without having a plan, you might just find you’re in exactly what you should be doing because you love it so much. If someone you know is on their leadership journey and could benefit from some of the lessons learned from Scott Kirby and others, be sure to share this episode with them. You can find all of our episodes at usafa.org/longblueleadership. I’m Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Thanks for joining us on Long Blue Leadership. Until next time.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:42There’s another side to Scott’s story in the September issue of Checkpoints magazine. In a feature about Air Force Academy graduates leading in high-stakes industries, Scott talks about risk, expected value, crisis and the thinking behind some of the biggest decisions he’s made at United Airlines. This conversation goes somewhere different. Here, we’re exploring the leadership behind those decisions: accountability, adaptability, trust, self-awareness and what leaders owe the people who depend on them. Together, the Checkpoints story and this episode offer two different views of the same leader: how Scott Kirby thinks when the stakes are high, and how he leads the people responsible for carrying those decisions forward.
Outro 52:23This Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded Tuesday, Sept. 1, 2026. Long Blue Leadership is a production of the Long Blue Line podcast network and presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation.
 
KEYWORDS
Scott Kirby, United Airlines CEO, Scott Kirby leadership, leadership principles, no excuses leadership, Air Force Academy, Long Blue Leadership, aviation leadership, airline industry leadership, leadership vs management, executive team building, crisis management, decision-making under pressure, calculated risk-taking, COVID-19 airline strategy, United Airlines innovation, AI in air travel, airline customer experience, continuous learning, career advice for leaders.
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 

America’s next giant leap will require more than rockets. It will require leaders.
SUMMARY
Long Blue Leadership Now welcomes NASA Deputy Administrator Col. (Ret.) Matt Anderson ’97, who shares the vision behind the proposed United States Space Academy and its potential role in preparing astronauts, engineers, scientists, operators and innovators for the challenges ahead. From the moon to Mars and beyond, Deputy Administrator Anderson shares how America can build the talent pipeline needed to lead in space for decades to come.
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Opening & Guest IntroductionCol. Walkewicz introduces Long Blue Leadership Now, frames the conversation, and presents Col. Anderson’s background and new role with the presidential commission on the U.S. Space Academy.
00:01:16 – Academy Roots & Early AspirationsCol. Anderson reflects on coming to the U.S. Air Force Academy, family influence and his original plan to be a doctor.
00:02:23 – First F‑16 Ride & Career PivotCol. Anderson’s formative F‑16 flight at Luke Air Force Base, getting sick and deciding to pursue pilot training instead of medicine.
00:03:07 – Executive Order: What Was Just Created?Explanation of the executive order, why it says “federal academy” not “service academy,” and the historical parallel to the creation of the Air Force Academy.
00:05:09 – Three Pillars of Space & Commercial BoomCol. Anderson breaks down national security space, civil space (NASA), and commercial space, with examples like Starlink and launch/observation/communications.
00:07:48 – Opportunity & Access: Who Gets to Serve?How the Space Academy may open doors for talented Americans who can’t serve in uniform (e.g., medical disqualifiers) but want to contribute through NASA and civil service.
00:09:35 – What a U.S. Space Academy Adds Beyond Existing AcademiesContrast with current service academies, focus on broader roles (astronauts, civil servants, scientists, entrepreneurs, operators, warfighters) and parallels to Merchant Marine Academy and Coast Guard Academy.
00:11:42 – New Majors for a Space FutureWhy fields like astrobiology, heliophysics and nuclear engineering are critical; the Nancy Grace Roman and Hubble space telescopes; AI-driven data analysis and preparing for lunar/Mars missions.
00:15:30 – The 120‑Day Commission & 2028 TargetThe nine mandated lines of effort, the tight 120‑day (target 90‑day) timeline, the December deadline and the goal of having the first class arrive in summer 2028.
00:17:35 – Core Values, Civic Mindset & Space LeadershipHow core values and civic-minded service will be baked into the Space Academy, aligning with but distinct from traditional military academies.
00:20:23 – Governance, Commission Members & NASA’s RoleWho’s around the table (NASA, DoW leadership, White House staff), Col. Anderson’s “quarterback” role and NASA’s central responsibility as the civilian-led space agency.
00:22:42 – Matt’s Leadership Edge & Vision for 50 Years OutCol. Anderson’s unique blend of biology, aeronautics and space experience; mental toughness for extreme environments; and how Space Academy grads will shape a competitive future in space vs. China and others
00:35:34 – Growing NASA’s Risk Culture & Closing ReflectionsOffsite in Bozeman (skydiving, fighter flights), teaching leaders to understand astronaut risk, daily leadership habits, core values, work ethic, guidance for young leaders, public input and closing thanks.
 
ABOUT MATT ANDERSON
BIO
Col. (Ret.) Matt Anderson is the 16th deputy administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. The president of the United States nominated him for the position on Jan. 13, 2026, and he was confirmed by the Senate on May 18, 2026. 
Col. Anderson grew up on U.S. Air Force bases around the world as the second of three sons of Paul and Patricia Anderson. Paul served as a chaplain in the Air Force and Patricia served as a schoolteacher. 
After graduating from high school in New Jersey, Col. Anderson attended the U.S. Air Force Academy where he earned a Bachelor of Science in biology and served as the team captain of its nationally ranked Division I soccer team. He later earned a Master of Science in aeronautical science and a Master of Arts in leadership and counseling.
Col. Anderson is a decorated Air Force command pilot in multiple aircraft with more than 5,000 flight hours, including more than 650 in combat. He commanded the U.S. Department of War’s only nuclear airlift squadron and served as a senior United States Air Force fellow at the George C. Marshall Center in Garmisch, Germany. Throughout his 24-year Air Force career, he served on several senior DoW staffs and commanded at multiple levels before retiring in 2021.  
Since retiring from military service, Col. Anderson has served as the chief operating officer and chief growth officer at the Space Force Association and as a vice president at CACI International. 
Originally from Colorado Springs, Colorado, Col. Anderson and his wife, Christine, are proud parents of two daughters, Kayla and Lauren.  
Outside of work, he is an avid snow skier, golfer and hiker, and he is currently pursuing his A-license in skydiving. 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz 0:04This is Long Blue Leadership Now — timely conversations with our leaders that are shaping what happens next. I’m Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ‘99, and I’m joined by Matt Anderson, Class of 1997, NASA’s deputy administrator, and our new executive director of the Presidential Commission of the United States Space Academy. We’re here today because on Aug. 28, the president of the United States signed an executive order creating the commission, beginning the process of establishing a new federal academy focused on developing America’s next space leaders. As you can imagine, this announcement has generated a lot of interest and plenty of questions, and we’re going to talk about that today. Matt Anderson is a retired colonel from our Air Force, serving 24 years as a command pilot and leader. He logged over 5,000 hours, over 650 of those in combat. His career spans time in U.S. Transportation Command, Northern Command and Space Command. After retiring from active duty, Matt went on to lead as an expert in the aerospace industry as well as the Space Force Association. From there, he became NASA’s 16th deputy administrator, and he’s with us here today. Matt, thank you for being here.The Hon. Col. (Ret.) Matt Anderson 1:16Man, I’m honored to be here. Thank you for having me. This is awesome. I appreciate it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:19Oh my goodness, and it’s so timely, and I’m sure everyone’s ready for us to jump right in. But before we talk about an academy that will exist in the future, let’s start with the one that formed us right here at the Air Force Academy. So, Matt, you’re ’97 graduate. Let’s hear it.
Col. Matt Anderson 1:31Keep it revvin’. Keep it revvin’.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:33Keep it revvin’. Yes, soccer team captain. You know, biology major. Did you see yourself in NASA today? Like, did you already know this was going to happen?Col. Matt Anderson 1:42No, definitely not. No, definitely did not. I just kind of followed my passions like a lot of us did. And my dad was an Air Force officer for years and graduated from New Jersey at the time, McGuire Air Force Base, and was looking at schools out there, and then came on a recruiting trip, like many of us did for sports or other reasons, out to beautiful Colorado Springs. And I showed up — I’m like, “Man, I hope I get into this place because this is where I want to go.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:08Oh, that’s amazing. So you had a little bit of kind of background. You wanted to come here. You know, when you went to the Academy, did it really kind of start to formulate some possibilities in your mind at that time, or was it just the path that your career took you, you know, post-Academy?
Col. Matt Anderson 2:23Yeah, it sure did. When I was in high school, I was like, “I want to be a doctor.” Whenever we got to dissect things in class in high school and middle school, I was like, “That’s what I want to do.” So, came to the Air Force Academy. I was like, “I’m going to be a biology major because that’s the path to being a doctor.” And then spring break of my freshman year, went to Luke Air Force Base and got an F-16 ride.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:41Ah, and it changed.
Col. Matt Anderson 2:42Yeah, to be honest, I threw up all over the place. And I went with one of my classmates who is now a major general, Rick Goodman, the J3 down at Central Command. We both threw up, and he ends up being a fighter pilot, a Thunderbird pilot. Now he’s a two-star general. We both got sick. It was awesome and miserable at the same time. I left spring break, going, “The doctor thing is going to have to wait. I’m going to go to pilot training,” and was lucky enough to do that.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:06Well, what an amazing career! When I talked about your career earlier, kind of how it spanned so many different facets. I think it really puts you in a unique position to be able to tackle this. And so maybe we should just jump right in. You know, we talked about this executive order. Can you share a little bit more? What does it actually establish? Let’s just kind of, you know, bring that forward for everybody.Col. Matt Anderson 3:25Yeah, executive orders aren’t new with administrations. It’s a way to look at what the nation needs, and this one is exactly what you said. It’s an executive order to establish a commission, and the commission is to look at the possibility and what it would take to establish a new federal academy. And the executive order used those exact words. It said a federal academy, not a service academy. So I think people, if they have questions, I really encourage them to go out and read the executive order. It’s very well written. The first paragraph kind of lays out the why and what it’s trying to do, and it specifically left out the words service academy. So while the president envisions it, and he talked about it in his speech, I think it was fantastic. His view of our service academies is so high. He just talks about the beauty of the land, the architecture, everything about it, and he goes, “I envision the new space academy to be on par or better than those.” And the reality is we haven’t established a new academy— this is the longest gap in our history that we’ve had between academies, if you look at it. And those academies were created throughout history for different reasons and we find ourselves in a space right now that, I think, ironically— if you look back, in 1947, the Air Force breaks away from the Army and they call it the Army Air Corps. And the nation is in what? The Cold War with the Soviet Union.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35That’s right.
Col. Matt Anderson 4:36And we’re like, “We have got to establish this new air domain, its own service. It’s going to be so important.” So Air Force breaks away from the Army. Was there controversy back then? Of course there was. Of course there was controversy. But what happened seven years after that? In 1954, legislation was passed to establish the United States Air Force Academy.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:54Here we are.
Col. Matt Anderson 4:56Seven years afterwards, and that was done in April of ’54. So you’re like, OK, it takes a while for you get a commission, legislation, appropriations. But back then, 15 months later, the first class of the Air Force Academy entered class. Summer ’55. So now you look where we’re at today. Almost seven years ago, the Space Force broke away from the Air Force. So the same exact timeline back in the ’40s, and seven years later, now we’re looking at a legislation to establish the newest academy. So it’s very similar timelines for very similar reasons. There’s a need for it. There’s a global need for a space academy. Now, is it different with this EO that we’re seeing today? Yeah, it’s not a Space Force Academy. It’s the United States Space Academy. So when you look at the EO, it talks about what do we need to continue to have American leadership in space, and we did not have rockets launching every other day even 10 years ago. So today we’ve got American rockets launching from American soil literally every other day, and this commercial— so when we think about space, we think about national security space. There’s kind of like three pillars: national security space. So people think Space Force, National Reconnaissance Office, the intelligence community. That’s national security space. Then you have civil space, so civilian space. That’s NASA. That’s what we do. And there’s very clear title— just like we have Title 10 and Title 50 and Title 51 for NASA. There’s U.S. code that says you will do this, you will do this.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:21Very clear.
Col. Matt Anderson 6:22It’s very clear. So folks are concerned about blurring lines between civilian space and national security space, and you know we’re following the law. We have very clear lines there. But that third one is what has really been booming lately. And if you talk to junior high kids and kids in high school, it’s commercial space. Commercial space, and we have lots of Academy grads that are leading in commercial space. So when I say commercial space, what does that mean? Because people have different definitions. In other words, how do you make money as a company without a government customer? So if NASA is not paying for your stuff, if the Space Force isn’t paying for your stuff, can you make money just like every other company in the United States? Can you make money on your own? Are there other customers that will pay for those services? And the reality is, there is today. If you think about launch, so launching rockets for Starlink was a good example. So launch, observation and communication. Those are the three categories right now where we see lots of money being made, and what we hope to do is unlock another economy, like an orbital economy, a lunar economy on the moon. And when we look forward, these academies have always been throughout history— we have to look forward. You know, Wayne Gretzky always had a very famous quote. He says, "I don’t skate to where the puck is now. I skate to where it’s going to be.” And that’s why he was the greatest hockey player ever. That’s what this academy’s doing. This is looking at the future. We’re not trying to solve today. We’re trying to keep ahead of the world and continue American leadership in space, so we’re fired up. If you can’t tell…
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:48Well, I was actually just going to say— so first off, that was a fantastic explanation. I think it was really helpful for you to share the different pillars of space, just to kind of for us to wrap our heads around it. And what I was going to ask you next— I could tell that you’re excited. Like, what most excites you about this?Col. Matt Anderson 8:03The thing that excites me, and the executive order actually addresses it is, this is going to open up new opportunities for Americans and for people to serve in a different capacity. We all know— I have a daughter who could not go to the Air Force Academy because she has a cashew and pistachio allergy. I’ve got friends that maybe have other diagnoses where they want to be patriots, they want to serve their nation, but military service for whatever reason— medically they’re not able to do it. This is an option to serve as a civilian in NASA or another civil servant position in our in our country that is related to space. And if, as the executive order says, if they choose to go into a national security role like the Space Force or the NRO or something like that, the executive order asks us to look at that. What would that look like? But it is clearly— it is a NASA civilian-led organization. NASA that’s leading this executive order, so that’s kind of how we see the plan. But I’m most excited— there’s a lot of kids in high school and junior high that are watching this excitement. They’re watching Starship take off and land with a chopstick catching it, and boosters coming down on a Falcon Heavy right next to each other. They’re like, “I want to be part of that.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:06And now they can.
Col. Matt Anderson 9:07They can. This is an opportunity where it’s different than a civilian institution. You can go to the U.S. Space Academy and, hey, you have a guaranteed job at NASA when you graduate. That’s worth something.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:18Got me excited.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 9:19That’s worth something. And they’re like, “Oh, I want to be an astronaut one day. Well, maybe the way I work my way to be an astronaut is I work in NASA.” That’s not a crazy concept to work in NASA, understand the organization, get trained in undergrad, and then one day maybe be an astronaut.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:35So maybe this is a question that tees from that pretty well. What then would this federal academy do that our current, you know, service academies aren’t doing? The Air Force Academy specifically, right? We do create Space Force officers that do have, I think, to your point, a focus on that. What will this actually solve?Col. Matt Anderson 9:55Yeah, I think it solves a lot of challenges. So when you think about a military academy, so right now about 10% of Air Force Academy graduates go into Space Force. So that’s about 100, right? If you think about a federal space academy, and the Executive Order talks about this, it says, "Hey, we want to develop a number of career fields,” if you will. Astronauts. It mentions astronauts, civil servants, scientists. OK, talks about engineers. It says entrepreneurs, operators, warfighters. There’s like seven that it mentions, but it’s not limiting it to those. But we don’t think of the Air Force Academy as producing entrepreneurs.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:31Right. Well, we do a lot, but yeah.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 10:33We produce some, but that’s not the purpose. That’s not designed for— leaders of character, serving your military, serving your country, warfighters. That’s what we’re chartered with at the Air Force Academy, but so there’s a little different flavor there. And if you think about what is a U.S. Space Academy, what would our majors look like? Take a look at the Merchant Marine Academy. Take a look at the Coast Guard Academy. Merchant Marine Academy is a pretty similar model. You know, civilian-led organization. They have an interesting slant to theirs with the Reserve commission, so you don’t have to go active duty. You could spend that maybe eight years in the reserves. Or about 30% of them go active duty. They choose to do so. But for us, if you’re feeding the organization, just like the Air Force Academy gets to feed the Air Force and Space Force, you get to you get to direct what that curriculum is. It’s your fault if you produce a bad product for your organization, the Air Force or Space Force. NASA, you know, we have a big part of what NASA does is science. There’s human spaceflight. There’s research and technology development, like aeronautics, think X planes, and all the cool things that NASA has worked on before. You know, if we think about the war with Iran right now, stealth technology, F-22 thrust vectoring engines, all those things were born in NASA. Yes, those technologies were born in NASA. So if you want to work on those things, so when we think about the majors, like what kind of majors would a space academy have? They should feed what NASA and the civilian workforce needs. So we don’t have astrobiology at the Air Force Academy. What is what is heliophysics? You know, these are things that we want our graduates from the U.S. Space Academy to know about because, for example, just recently we launched the greatest space telescope we’ve ever launched in our history. It’s called the Nancy Grace Roman Telescope, and it went on a Falcon 9 out of Florida. And oh, sorry, a Falcon Heavy. And so the Falcon Heavy is three Falcon 9s put together. So it’s a massive rocket, and this is the one that goes up, and the two boosters about eight minutes later come back down and land in formation with two sonic booms. It’s a crowd pleaser. It’s incredible. But the bottom line is, it had the most incredible telescope on it. And folks are like, “Well, what does that matter?” So, 36 years ago, the Hubble was launched, and everybody’s like, "Ooh, we get to unlock the secrets of the universe, find new galaxies.” And it did. But that was 36 years ago. So, what does Nancy Grace Roman do? So, Nancy Grace Roman can do in one month that would take Hubble 100 years.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:52Oh my goodness!
Col. Matt Anderson 12:53So that’s the leap in technology that we’ve got. One month of work on Hubble — or Roman — is 100 years of Hubble. So that’s coming back. That’s unlocking galaxies we’ve never seen before. Studying how planets and energy interact with each other to really unlock the secrets of universe. How do we get here? Is there life out there? So astrobiology is that major that will take all this data from Roman, and they’re like, "Well, what? I still didn’t understand this Roman thing.” So for our audience, I know I needed some examples—
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:22This is helpful. That was my next question, thank you.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 13:24Let’s say you’re at Falcon Stadium for a night game.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:27OK, we’re there. Yes.
Col. Matt Anderson 13:28Football game, and a tiny little firefly is right in front of the biggest lights at Falcon Stadium. And then you go past I-25 a mile away and you try to take a picture of that firefly with the lights behind it. There’s no way. Nancy Grace Roman can do that in space. A mile away, firefly with light behind it. It can block out the lights, focus on that. And then it’s a terabyte of data per day coming back to Earth. That’s a lot. In fact, it’s so big, we don’t even have anything that can display it right now. Like, they’re trying to describe to people what this game-changing technology is like. If you know, if like, “Hey, is it the size of Mount Rushmore?” Like, no, that’s too small. So some people have seen El Capitan, where you can free climb. So this is like 4K TVs all over the mountain of El Capitan. That’s the size of one picture, and that’s the galaxy. So long story short, astrobiology is a major that we think the U.S. Space Academy should have because we’re getting a terabyte a day. That’s not—like humans can’t even process that much information. So, you need artificial intelligence to do that. You need astrobiologists to study that. That’s not something the Air Force Academy is producing. This is very specific— nuclear engineering. We think that in order to get to Mars and return doesn’t really do any good if you get to Mars. You need nuclear power and propulsion. We don’t have nuclear engineering at the Air Force Academy. Naval Academy does because it’s very important for their mission for submarines and aircraft carriers. We think the next best thing for space travel and exploring the universe is nuclear power propulsion. So, as you know, we’re building a moon base. We’re going there in 2028. We’re going to land on the moon again, but we’re not just going for flags and footprints to see, like we did in the late ’60s, early ’70s. We’re going with massive spacecraft, and we’re going to the south pole of the moon. We can talk about why that’s important later. But we’re bringing a lot of equipment. In 2027 we’re bringing rovers and landers every single month in 2027. So we’re showing up on the moon with robots and rovers and so forth. But this just needs a different skill set. It needs a completely different skill set. We need quantity of highly trained people. And when that information comes back from Roman, you need people to know what it means. This is U.S. Space Academy, creating these scientists, these engineers, these operators, and we’re pretty fired up for it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:45Well, it seems like you’ve already been thinking about this. And so in 120 days, what are you actually then providing back? And really, what’s your approach? I mean, it seems like you’ve already identified, you know, some of the lanes and the capabilities that are needed. Can you tell us more?Col. Matt Anderson 15:58Sure thing. I mean, I’ll use an Air Force Academy example. So, when you go to the Academy, what do you grade it on? Your military performance average, your GPA, your physical performance, and then we have character baked in there. So there’s kind of four things you need to think about the Air Force Academy. Well, the executive order gave us nine things. “You will look at these nine things, and you will report back in 120 days.” And it’s everything from governance, curriculum to location, which is a highly interesting topic around the country. But it says these are nine things, you’ve got 120 days, which ironically is the day after Christmas. It’s Dec. 26, so we’re trying to make that a little earlier because, who does this go to? It goes to the president. Ultimately, he’ll make the decision, and it will inform the process. So right now, this is fact gathering. Now we are aggressive on that. In fact, we have a shot clock going on how many days we have left, and this is a lot to unpack in 120 days. We’re trying to get it quicker to 90 days, actually because just like back in 1954, this is going to require some  legislation, some appropriations and so forth. So if we want students in the summer of 2028, which is, if we use the Air Force example from 1955, that’s what we’re targeting: students in class summer of ’28. They need to be able to apply next year. You have two sons at the Air Force Academy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:07Yes I do.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 17:08You know that process. It’s not easy. It’s not fast. It’s not easy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:11That’s correct.
Col. Matt Anderson 17:12So if they’re going to apply in 2027 to be in class summer ’28, we got work to do.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:16Well, thanks for getting us in the shot clock time period. We appreciate that. You know, when we talk about the technical competencies, I’m curious if you’re thinking as well when you do this research and this study on some of, like, the core competencies or the core values — Is that something that you’re thinking of baking in as well as in the way that we have our service academy? Col. Matt Anderson 17:35Core values will definitely be baked into the U.S. service academy. You look at all the service academies; it’s there. Civic-minded was mentioned in the executive order. It’s a civic minded— that’s exactly what we want. We can’t guarantee that product out of civilian universities. You can guarantee academic standards have been met and they give you a diploma, but we want that mindset coming into NASA, coming into our civil servant workforce, and we just can see a difference. You know, when you are mission-focused curriculum where core values are baked in, integrity is baked into you, we want that part of— there’s no reason that can’t be part of the U.S. service academy, and it will be.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:10I love that. So when I think about the space professional that’s going to come out, that’s going to come out of the space academy— I’m sure you’ve seen on socials a lot of ideas of what we could call our graduates. Not talking about that, but more specifically, do you think that the space academy is more focused on providing like space education for what is needed, or are you looking at creating space leaders that understand how to integrate the entire enterprise? I’m curious if that’s something…Col. Matt Anderson 18:34Yes and yes. We want— I mean, I think a lot of us. I majored in biology at the Air Force Academy, and arguably, what it taught me was a scientific way of thinking and approaching problems. But did I ever use biology, genetics, botany in my career? No. I mean, you ask a lot of Air Force Academy graduates; they never use their actual major, which differs from the civilian population, right? I think the space academy, you’re going to get to use your major more. If you think about, like, I used some other science examples, right? But there are engineering ones, and we talk about testing rockets, things like that. You’re going to get to use your major, and we need that technical expertise to continue American leadership in space. So I think we’re going to use the skills there, and we get to design the majors and everything to directly feed what we want. So you’re going to have some sort of service commitment. You know, the commission is going to look at that. Do you have the same five-year commitment that you have at military academies? Do you make it more? Like, what’s the right blend there so that we can get the right mix? I mean, there’s— everything’s open. You can do your four years at the U.S. Space Academy. If you’re going into civilian service, do they count as government service? They never counted for us in our military time. The time did not— your commitment start for us. It was after our second year, you know, after our sophomore year. When you go to class your junior year, we then had— either paying it back or you’re going to owe military service. Is that the right model? Should it be after freshman year? There’s— everything’s open, and this is what the commission is looking at. It’s a very interesting time. It’s a great problem, a challenge to look at. What’s the best return on investment for taxpayer money to establish the U.S. Space Academy? And we have a lot of people wanting to help. We’re trying to narrow down the ones— you know, we have 120 days. The commission itself cannot be full of bureaucracy. We actually have to move with speed, figure out those nine lines of effort and then get after them.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:23So who’s around the table with you?
Col. Matt Anderson 20:25Yeah, so there’s so there’s four people that were identified. Kind of. So the administrator of NASA is the chair of the commission. Then we have two vice chairs, and they’re both in the in the White House staff. I’m the executive director, which we all know what that means. I’m the deputy of administrator of NASA. So that means I’m doing a lot of the work. I’m doing kind of the kind of the quarterback to get it going. And then there’s a number of folks in there, like the secretary of War is on the commission, the secretary of the Air Force. So, you know, for all of the academy graduates, like, “Hey, are the Department of War interests going to be looked at?” Well, 100% We’ve got the secretary of War. We’ve got the secretary of the Air Force. In fact, we have a meeting coming up with all of them, and they’re not sending representatives. They’re showing up, and it just— it’s massive. With everything else going on in the world, they’re showing up to the first meeting of the commission, and we’re pretty excited about that. And there’s others, some other folks in there, a handful of them identified in the executive order and they’re there.  and they can also have their representatives, but we’re also allowed to bring in more, and that’s what we’re doing. We’re bringing in some experts, and I think a lot of Air Force Academy graduates will be part of that.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:26So I imagine NASA is very excited about this. What, you know— what’s the sentiment with NASA at this, and what’s NASA’s role? I think, you know, such a heavy lift in this piece of space academy.
Col. Matt Anderson 21:37Yeah, NASA has a huge role because the executive order said this is NASA-led. And that was very intentional to say NASA is a civilian space agency, as we talked about the three types of space sectors right now, so we have a huge role. The chair of the commission is Jared Isaacman and he could not be more excited about this. He views this as a game changer for our nation for space. He’s the most passionate person about space I’ve ever met in my life. He’s a fighter pilot…
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:59More passionate than you?
Col. Matt Anderson 22:00Yeah, he’s a civilian fighter pilot who’s got more than 8,000 flight hours. He’s incredibly talented. He’s been to space twice with his two private missions with Inspiration Four, where he raised $250 million for St. Jude. I mean, the guy’s just really good at life, frankly. He’s a good human. His next mission was about two years ago, Polaris Dawn, where he did the first civilian spacewalks. We got outside the capsule. He was up there for five days. His idea of risk and moving with speed is a little different than most people. So we’re excited about it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:31So what do you feel that you uniquely bring to this table? I mean, like you said, quarterback, heavy lifting. You know, how is your mindset and your approach to this because of you being you?
Col. Matt Anderson 22:42Yeah, well, hopefully, passion is coming across. I’m incredibly passionate about it. My background with a with an academic passion for biology and science early on fits great with NASA. My aeronautics background fits great with NASA. The first A in NASA is aeronautics, and we do a lot of work in aeronautics. And then, you know, recently my, all my work in space with the Space Force Association, mostly on the national security side, that brings a little technical expertise. But also, if you look at the commission, there’s a lot of people sitting around that table that some may not have background with the others, and I feel like I have a good background with all of them, and that matters a lot as you’re trying to build trust and you’re trying to get everybody rolling in the same direction. Pretty exciting so far.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:24Oh my goodness! You know, you talked a little bit in the beginning about how this will open doors for even, you know, those like your daughter with certain allergies that she couldn’t do certain things at service academies. I’m curious what you hope— let’s look 50 years down the road now. You know, in the way that Air Force Academy’s been here, what does Space Academy now— where are we at technologically wise in this in this space enterprise?
Col. Matt Anderson 23:45Yeah, I think the most exciting thing is, who knows? Those first classes at the Air Force Academy came from West Point. That’s why we were able to move so fast. So even us, we went, still go through the obstacle course, the assault course. And there’s been critiques for years, like why are Air and Space Force you know cadets crawling under logs in the mud with bombs going off still in Jacks Valley? We still do it because there’s still value in training and mental toughness and things like that. Well, when you’re going out to space as an astronaut, or you’re training people to go to space, or you’re designing spacecraft that are in the harshest environments that we’ve ever known… When we spent— when we sent astronauts to the moon in the late ’60s and early ’70s, and they landed there, the temperature swings on the moon are up to 400 degrees when the sun is there and when the sun sets. 400-degree differences. So if you think Afghanistan and Iraq are tough environments, or even Antarctica, the moon is a completely different level. So you need to develop mentally tough people at an academy, just like our other surface academies have done. So all those experiential learning things: jumping out of planes, flying high-consequence fighter aircraft to test your mental toughness — go throw up as a freshman. Puke and rally, right? Puke and rally in a different way. Puke and rally. Get over it. Move on. You know the confidence course when we were here in Jacks Valley. The fear of heights. You know Reid Wiseman, the commander of Artemis II, who just came back, who just went around the moon, has publicly said many times, "I’m ironically scared of heights.” This is a highly decorated fighter pilot, astronaut who led you know the first mission around the moon in over 50 years and, you know, the furthest any humans have ever been. And he goes, “I’m afraid of heights.” So these are things that you and I went through at the Air Force Academy that we worked through. But I think, as I look at what I’m doing today and what you’re doing today, is what you can do. Think about what we did as a freshman. What our day looked like. What did— I mean, we woke up. We vacuumed the hallway. We had three current events.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:47We called minutes.
Col. Matt Anderson 25:48Yeah, we called minutes. We stood in formation. We looked at Contrails. We got quizzed on our knowledge. Sometimes yelled at our— you know, about our knowledge. Then we go to march and we get more quizzed on our knowledge. And then we get graded on our marching. We finally get to breakfast. We fill out the Form O-96. We have to— how many ice cubes are in the upperclassmens’ drinks?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:05Seven chews.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 26:06I mean, seven— we haven’t even gotten to class yet. So then you work through your whole day. You go to track practice. You go to soccer practice. You go to M5. You come back. You got academic call to quarters and you’re exhausted. But what that taught us is you can do a lot in a day if you challenge yourself.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:21That’s right.
Col. Matt Anderson 26:22Well, we’re trying to beat China to the moon. We have clear objectives at NASA, and NASA’s role is just part of the whole federal government. This is a global competition with a growing power in China — economically, militarily, civil space-wise. We need those type of Academy grads all over our space industry. It could be working for Jason Kim, an alumni at Firefly.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:43That’s right. My classmate, ’99.
Col. Matt Anderson 26:44It could be Matt Kuta, who’s at Voyager Technologies. We have grads all over the place working in this industry, and they want Academy grads. Trust me, not just Air Force Academy grads. Hopefully, one day Space Academy grads. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:55I love that. So you know, there’s such a human element to this. We’ve been talking about that. I imagine when the news came out, you probably got a lot of messages. How do you manage the, I guess, the questions that might take people down a different path. What can we share today that you’ve maybe seen in a question that we haven’t covered?
Col. Matt Anderson 27:13I think it’s natural to read things and say, “What does that mean? What does that mean for the Air Force Academy.” First thing I say: Read the executive order. You know, I always tell my kids and people that I’ve worked for, and they say, "Hey, be book smart before you’re street smart.” So just read the actual order, and it is an order. This is an executive option. This is an executive order given to NASA. So we’re going to follow. We’re going to have to have it done in 120 days. But there’s just something about being book smart. And I learned that being a pilot, I was like— I didn’t understand the value of actually understanding the flying regulations until you know them and you can use them to your advantage and you can get the mission done. So, read the executive order. I beg people to read the executive order, see what it says, see what it doesn’t say, and then follow along with the commission. We will have events like this where we’re going to get to talk about it, and then, you know, just after Christmas when this thing is due, there’ll be a little bit time for the White House to figure it out, and I’m sure they’re going to try to move on this very quickly as well.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:03Well, in 90 days, I mean that’s pretty aggressive. Have there been any early decisions or things that you can share with us now?
Col. Matt Anderson 28:09No, not yet. It’s so short.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:11Understood.
Col. Matt Anderson 28:12It’s so short. Right now, we’re just getting the plan together, we’re setting milestones when things are due. I’ve had an opportunity to chat with our new superintendent, our new provost, which you know we used to call the dean, which I think is— I mean he’s incredible. Call sign “Fangs.” He’s helping us a lot thinking about our curriculum and just higher education in general. There’s some headwinds out there in the higher education world right now, and he’s navigating those great here at the Air Force Academy. Our superintendent, Gen. Moga, was so excited to learn more about this U.S. Space Academy, how it affects the Air Force Academy, and will there be exchanges down the road. I hope there are. I mean, if a cadet at the Air Force Academy wants to go to six months at the U.S. Space Academy and vice versa, we sure hope that that happens because I think there’s going to be excitement there. And I think— if you think about experiential learning that we have at the Air Force Academy, there’s a lot of them. I mean, even a lot has changed since we graduated. But jumping out of planes, flying gliders, powered flight program, you know, Falcon Sat, all the things that happen here to produce a better officer, they will be at Space Academy too. They’ll just be different. And they’re going to be incredible. They’re going to be well funded. The president laid out his vision. Is this is going to be similar to West Point, Annapolis and Air Force, and with those experiential, we have some incredible ideas what they could be, and with the technologies we have today. So I think cadets at the Air Force Academy are going to want to exchange. So what we’re looking at, Gen. Moga’s looking at a lot of the positives, and as are we, we hope to have a lot of that exchanges, and especially during summer programs. I think there’s an opportunity wherever this academy ends up. There’s some cool opportunities.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:46Well, I think the breadth of touch has been really reassuring for everyone to hear. Like, there’s so many, I think, important inputs as you consider things. One of the things I’m curious on — because this is Long Blue Leadership — You know, we have our listeners and viewers that are faced with something that is proposed or ordered, perhaps, and they have to approach it without, you know, there’s an end date, but there’s not a lot of direction how to get there. What might you share with them on how to approach that?
Col. Matt Anderson 30:11I think the thing is, you know, hit the “I believe button” a little bit and some trust. And if we look back and when service academies were stood up — why they were stood up — if you ever get intellectually curious, go back and do some reading and say, “Why did we stand up West Point, Annapolis, Air Force Academy, Coast Guard Academy, Merchant Marine Academy? What purpose does it serve? What was going on in the world at the time, and does it make sense? Did it make sense? And are we pretty thankful that we, you know, all the naysayers that said you don’t need an Air Force Academy — are we pretty thankful now where we’re at in the world?” And I say, yeah, we’re very thankful. So I think we’re going to see that with U.S. It’s tough, just like when Space Force was born seven years ago. That was not— not everybody was unborn with that. And now you look at it and what’s going on in a classified environment with China and Russia and other competitors. The benefit that the U.S. Space Force has brought to the effort in Iran has saved lives. It has saved Air Force Academy lives because we have a Space Force. Because we have Air Force Academy graduates serving and leading in the Space Force, it saved lives. That’s what’s— that’s the bottom line. And I think we’ll see similar results in the greater space architecture and enterprise with U.S. Space Academy in the industry world, the civil servant world, potentially military service, if cadets want to do that, but I think we’re going to look back on it and say, “That was a great call.”
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:29I love starting with the “I believe button” and have some confidence. You know what have you learned about yourself in this journey? Because you know most would look at you and say, all these things are you still growing in your leadership?Col. Matt Anderson 31:40Oh man, 100%. First of all, you can always stretch your personal limits. Meeting a superhuman, I call him— like Jared Isaacman. You can always find men— I talked to Fred Gregory just yesterday, an incredible Class of 1964…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:58Distinguished Graduate.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 31:59Distinguished Graduate, astronaut, former deputy administrator of NASA. I spoke to him yesterday. He passed a letter to Mark Hille and said, "Hey, could you pass this to Matt Anderson? I have some thoughts on the U.S. Space Academy.” Fred is 85 years old, and he just busted out a paper on his thoughts — pros and cons — of the U.S. Space Academy. So I was like, I’ve got to talk to this guy. I’ve never met him before. I mean, he was a former deputy minister at NASA, so we spoke for like 45 minutes yesterday. And I learned so much from him about humility. And he’s incredibly technically savvy. His background is unbelievable. He’s 85 years old and still growing. We had an opportunity a couple weeks ago where Jared Isaacman got confirmed last December. I got confirmed about three months ago in May. So we’re just like every commander does. From comes in, looks at looks at the team he’s got on the field. You need to reorganize a little bit, and we’ve done some of that, and we’ve asked for some serious change within NASA, looking at how we assess risk. And we did a pretty exciting thing a couple weeks ago. We brought 45 of the most senior folks at NASA, and we went to an offsite. We went to Bozeman, Montana, and…
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:11Really offsite.
Col. Matt Anderson 33:12We flew everybody up there, and I should say, Administrator Isaacman personally hosted everybody in Bozeman, Montana. He is an avionic, an aeronautics, very passionate about aeronautics. So he keeps a fleet of personally owned fighter aircraft up in Bozeman, Montana. MiG 29, Alpha Jets, F-5s. And another thing that I’ve done with him a lot recently is skydive. So I did AM 490 when I was a cadet, five jumps. But since then, we’ve been doing one minute one-minute free falls, forming up on each other. So we skydive regularly. So we’re jumping out of planes together. We’re flying fighter jets together. My second day on the job, we hopped into F fives and ripped around Starbase, Texas, right before a Starship launch, and so we’re just showing that hey, NASA can be, can have that sizzle like it had years ago. Most of us weren’t even alive when we landed on the moon in the late ’60s, early ’70s. So we’re just trying to generate that excitement. So we took 45 of our senior leaders, went to Bozeman, Montana, and we said, “Hey, we’re going to learn how to be comfortable being uncomfortable.” So I’m really proud of Kelly. She’s a 62-year-old HR professional, SES that works at NASA and she works for me, and I said, “Kelly, I really want you to jump out of airplane, and I want you to fly in a fighter, and if you puke, that’s great. You can rally just like I did.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:23You’re like, “I did it too.”
 
Col. Matt Anderson 34:24And she goes, “You’re crazy, you know?” And we had a whole bunch that the— Dr. Fox, who leads all of science for NASA, same thing. She’s like, “You want me to do what?” I’m like, “No, we need you to understand what we put our astronauts through, the risk that they and their families take, because we’re the ones leading the organization.” So I want our lawyers, I want our program managers that run the money, I want everybody that’s running the organization to understand risk like we have our astronauts do so that we can, no kidding, get to the moon in 2028. So they’re jumping out of planes, they’re flying in fighters. We did all kinds of awesome things, personal growth, and then after they didn’t feel that that great, we did about seven or eight hours of the standard PowerPoint, your briefness on your objectives, and so you got to do this, and then you got to perform, and it was a great team-building exercise. But we took folks that didn’t get this opportunity, like we had, the Air Force Academy, and we said, this is what we think the new NASA should look like, and then shortly thereafter, about a week later, the executive order for the Space Academy came out, and they all kind of smiled at me like, "We see what you guys are doing. You’re creating a new NASA that’s going to go to the moon, build a moon base, nuclear power to Mars and beyond. And they’re like, "Yeah, this is the mindset we need.”
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:34That is very exciting, and actually, there were so many good nuggets in there for leaders because you made it real. You made it real for the ones that are really building the products or providing a service to understand what it’s like on the other side of it and I think that’s really important for leaders. And then you also walked it with them. So thank you for sharing those two things, Matt, what’s something you’re doing every day to be a better leader? I mean, in the time that you, you know, you have with all the time.
Col. Matt Anderson 35:57Yeah, I work on it a lot. I had the opportunity to be an AOC here at the Academy, kind of mid-career, where you go get a master’s degree in counseling and leadership, and really the focus there is leadership as a commander you’re a leader. Counseling is a soft skill, but you can figure out how to do that in a manner. Maybe meet people in a different space. So what I sum that up is, be very demanding, but don’t be demeaning. I think when you start getting down that demeaning path, that’s when we get into trouble. But I mean, everybody wants their kids’ coach to be demanding. Like, you don’t put your kids in sports for a really soft coach. That’s not— you want them to learn life lessons and all that stuff. But you don’t want a demeaning coach. If a coach is hard on your kid, I know for me, perfect. I love it because I’m hard on him too, but I’m not demeaning. So as we as we work through this, and even when I went through my Senate confirmation hearing, there were those that maned me to succeed and there were those that didn’t want me to succeed.  But be a leader. Ironically, I talked about core values in a lot of my interviews with the senators, and I and I talked to them about what we learned at the Air Force Academy, and their staffers were taking notes, and they just didn’t get to hear that very often. I was shocked.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:58Yes, I am too, actually.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 36:59I was shocked that at the highest levels of our government, Senate staffers that are great humans that have great academic backgrounds, I’m like, you know what? It just comes down to core values, to be honest. And I talked to about our Air Force core values that have stood a long time now, if you think about it, they haven’t changed, and it’s pretty amazing. I talk about those core values. Organizations, companies that have core values, their stock price tends to do better. Companies that don’t have core values, they struggle. They struggle in the media. They struggle with shareholders. They don’t have a vision. If you have core values to fall back on, the more I’ve learned as a leader, I’m like, look, you’ve got to fall back on that. If you just do the right thing, it sounds so simple, but people they fumble the ball all the time on that. They just they don’t do the right thing. They’re trying to do the right thing for a shareholder or for some other reason. But if you stay focused on the mission, you have core values, I think you’re in a good spot.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:48We have that Polaris.
Col. Matt Anderson 37:49Yeah, absolutely.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:50Absolutely. What would you tell a cadet nowadays, or someone, a young child, or you know, kid that’s growing up? What should they be doing now, for the future, to be a better leader?
Col. Matt Anderson 38:02Yeah, I think, No. 1 is it’s work ethic. If we could, I think we look at it with excellence in all we do with our core value, but I don’t think you can be excellent without work ethic. So if you could somehow put grit in core values, I honestly think from what I’ve seen, I’ve seen it with my two daughters. If you have grit and you work hard, you may not be the 1,600 SAT kid. I definitely was not. But if you outwork people day in, day out, take that that duty day like we had as freshmen, and you just work. I think whatever you’re working on, it could be Eagle Scouts, it could be the band, it could be the choir, it could be sports. You just work hard. People, I mean, I’ve had the opportunity to be a lot of the senior space leaders across the world, and they just hire people to work hard because they all work hard. So they look at that person. Reminds me of me, and I want to hire them. I had the opportunity when I first met Jared Isaacman. What did I— first time I met him, I interviewed him in front of the cadets at the Air Force Academy. He was coming out of COVID. He was the first external audience. We brought I brought Jared Isaacman in here, and I said, “Hey, Mr. Isaacman, what do you think of Academy grads?” And at the time, he was a 39-year-old billionaire with, that’s been going to space, started his own company at 16, flies his own fighter aircraft. The line was out the door to ask this guy questions. He’s a great human, and I said—
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:21Talk about work ethic, right there.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 39:22It’s incredible. “What do you think of academy grads? If you see a resume from an Academy grad, what does that— do you look at their major, what they majored in?” He goes, "No, no, no. I just know what they’ve been through. I know they work hard.” And every cadet kind of sat up and goes, "Hmm, So 2-0 and go will work?” You know? It kind of was funny, but he goes, "I just know what you’ve been through. So you’ve worked hard. It was different than partying at a state school.”  He respected the process of going through an academy. He did. Every academy grad, Air Force Academy grads sitting there was like, "Wow, that guy’s the coolest person I’ve ever heard talk, and he values my education.” So I think working hard is huge.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:59That is awesome. Well, to kind of bring this home, I’m curious if you think will there be updates to the community, to the public on kind of your work, or do you expect that we’ll hear it in about 90 days or so?
Col. Matt Anderson 40:11Yeah, I think it’ll be at the end of the commission because there’s just so much work that has to be done. I think there will be some steps along the way, like we expect to put out a request for information to the states as far as where this thing is going to be located. So, hey, Colorado, what would you think it looks like to put a U.S. Space Academy in Colorado? California? Texas? So on and so forth? Well, you know, they’re going to have an opportunity to make their case. Ultimately the president of the United States is going to make that decision. The commission is going to set out the process to apply, if you will. What resources we would need? What do you think your state can offer to this academy from a space economically, geographically, so on and so forth. Are you close to an airport? Do you have a space industry nearby? We don’t even know what we’re going to learn from the submissions. But that’s probably the first step that the public will see — that there’s going to be an RFI that goes out that says, "Hey, states, we want to hear what you have to say.” This is no different than what happened with the Air Force Academy. I think the difference is then we had over 500 submissions to host the Air Force Academy. We’re going to try to narrow that down one per state because we don’t have enough time to go through 550 submission. And it’s just a request for information. It’s not a request for a proposal or something like that, like an acquisition. We’re just trying to gather information right now and give the president the best options available.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:26This has been amazing. Matt, was there anything I didn’t ask you that you think would be really helpful for folks?
Col. Matt Anderson 41:30No, I just I’ve had a blast talking about it. Hopefully that comes through a little bit. I ask people to be patient, get excited, and if you want, think about if you’re in the space industry, like you know what they need? They need this major. People talk about program management. You know, the executive board had said we want to make entrepreneurs. Well, we need to have very adaptive, world-class program managers, acquisition, contracting-type folks that understand the far. They understand what space companies are using to move with speed, and we want those graduates coming out of the academy as well. So there’s a lot of good ideas out there. You know, flow them up to us. We’re an open book. We’re excited. It is a commission. It’s just an EO for a commission to see what’s possible, and we’re working hard to do it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:14Is there a flow for that information be captured to you guys?
 
Col. Matt Anderson 42:17There is.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:18Oh, I was like, you’re not offering necessarily everyone to reach out to Matt Anderson.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 42:22That’s probably the worst way to do it. My— every form of communication right now is saturated.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:28Oh, I can imagine.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 42:29So, you know, there’s the best way to do it for now, especially locations, is work through your state. The states, some states have commissions, they have nonprofits that speak for the states. There’s different— every state does it kind of differently. Some states, the governors are running it, and they’re kind of taking that. Hey, this is a whole-state effort, getting private industry and investors and donors, frankly, involved. So I think work through their states on those types of things. And you know, honestly, this is a historic opportunity for the United States of America. It’s to ensure American space leadership and across the entire enterprise. And I really appreciate— this is really the first time I’ve had a chance to talk about it publicly. So I really appreciate the work that you and the whole team are doing here.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:13Well, Matt, we’re so proud to have you, you know, as a key leader in this in this effort and you know can you continue to make our first academy proud so we’re grateful for you. Col. Matt Anderson 43:23Thank you. Go Falcons. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:24That’s right. Thank you so much. Well, this has been Long Blue Leadership Now. Be sure to stay in touch and you can find all of our Long Blue Leadership episodes at usafa.org/longblueleadership. I’m Naviere Walkawicz, Class of ’99. Again, thank you to Matt Anderson, Class of ’97. We’ll see you next time. Thank you so much.
 
Col. Matt Anderson 43:41Thank you.
 
KEYWORDSUnited States Space Academy, presidential commission, federal academy, NASA leadership, space education, commercial space, national security space, civil space, Space Force, American leadership in space, orbital economy, lunar economy, astronaut career pathways, STEM workforce, space policy, executive order, aerospace innovation, astrobiology, heliophysics, service academies.
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 

"Leadership isn't something any of us ever finishes learning."
SUMMARY
In this special Long Blue Leadership: In Case You Missed It edition, we return to eight conversations from 2026 and pull some of their most practical lessons: Slow down when pressure says rush, honor your word, separate the person from the performance, ask better questions, protect what matters, adapt to the moment, be the steady hand and notice when someone needs you to act.  
FEATURED SPEAKERS00:02:00 - Mitch Torrel ’14: Slow Down to Lead Better 00:06:45 - Jessica Whitney ’10: Honor Your Word 00:11:15 - Joe Bledsoe ’11: Make Feedback Useful 00:15:40 - Jannell MacAulay ’98: Ask Better Questions 00:20:05 - Joel Neeb ’99: Protect What Matters 00:24:30 - Kim Ford ’90: Lead for the Moment 00:29:00 - Mark Michalek ’99: Be the Steady Hand 00:33:30 - Matthew Ayers ’99: Notice and Act
THREE LEADERSHIP TRUTHS
Truth One: Leadership begins with intention.
Slow down enough to think. Protect what matters. Honor your commitments. Don't allow the urgency, distraction or discomfort of the moment to make your decisions for you.
Truth Two: Leadership is deeply human.
Ask better questions. Give feedback that helps people grow. Adapt your approach. Create the trust and connection that allow people to bring their best.
Truth Three: Leadership is something we practice.
It's not reserved for extraordinary circumstances. It happens in everyday choices — in how we respond under pressure, how we listen, how we use our time and whether we notice when someone around us needs something we can give.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 - Eight Leaders, Eight Lessons
00:02:00 - Mitch Torrel: Slow Down to Lead Better
00:06:45 - Jessica Whitney: Honor Your Word
00:11:15 - Joe Bledsoe: Make Feedback Useful
00:15:40 - Jannell MacAulay: Ask Better Questions
00:20:05 - Joel Neeb: Protect What Matters
00:24:30 - Kim Ford: Lead for the Moment
00:29:00 - Mark Michalek: Be the Steady Hand
00:33:30 - Matthew Ayers: Notice and Act
00:38:00 - Lessons to Carry Forward
 
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AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIPAND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS:
Ted Robertson, Narrator
 - Mitch Torrel ’14 - Jessica Whitney ’10 - Joe Bledsoe ’11 - Jannell MacAulay ’98 - Joel Neeb ’99 - Kim Ford ’90 - Mark Michalek ’99 - Matthew Ayers ’99
 
Ted Robertson 0:03Over the course of 2026, Long Blue Leadership and our host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkowicz, Class of ’99, have taken us into some extraordinary conversations with leaders whose experiences span military service, business, aviation, public service and community leadership. I’m Ted Robertson for the Long Blue Line Podcast Network. Long Blue Leadership starts now. For this edition, we’re doing something a little different. We’ve gone back through some of Naviere’s conversations, looking for the leadership lessons that are most meaningful, most approachable, and importantly, most useful. So think of this as Long Blue Leadership: In Case You Missed It. Eight leaders, eight lessons you can carry into your own leadership tomorrow. Let’s get started. We begin in one of the highest-pressure environments imaginable. In 2018, Mitch Torrel, Class of 2014, was part of the U.S. Special Tactics response to the rescue of a youth soccer team trapped deep inside a flooded cave system in Thailand. But Mitch’s lesson isn’t really about cave rescue. It’s about what happens when urgency starts driving the decisions. He learned that the leader’s job isn't always to act first or have every answer. Sometimes it’s to slow the situation down, bring the right people together and create enough space for the best idea, including the quietest one, to emerge. Here’s Mitch Torrel.
 
Mitch Torrell 1:46I just happened to be in the right time at the right place. There was a team of air rescue men and combat controllers stationed out in Okinawa, Japan. There was a group of soccer players who got stranded in the cave after the monsoons came early and it flooded out a section. The Thai leadership and parks team, and then eventually the Thai Navy tried to attempt a rescue, and they weren’t able to action it. So they reached out to the U.S. Embassy and asked if we had anybody in in the region who could come help. And that just happened to be our team out in Okinawa. I think it was definitely a challenge. There wasn’t a lot of information when we left out the door. It was, hey, there’s 13 individuals stuck in a cave. We don’t know what the hurdles are. We don’t know what's been tried. We don't know anything. We don’t even know if they’re alive. And so, getting on the ground, it was a lot of information to take in. There’s a lot of people who are trying to help, trying to facilitate a rescue, working, you know, their own agendas, and I think coordinating and making sense of all that chaos was kind of the first task.Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz 2:55Like, how did you navigate that chaos?Mitch Torrel 2:58So I felt like I had the best job out of you know anybody there. I got to be the operations officer, and so I was kind of the troop commander for the team that we had out. And, you know, meanwhile, my leadership had to, you know, liaise with the other leaders. I got to be kind of down and in focused. All right, what plans are we working? How are we coordinating and liaising with our Thai counterparts? And got to be a little bit more down and in, and so I really enjoyed that part, and that was kind of why I got into special operations in general, is I wanted to be, you know, working with a team of really, really high-functioning individuals on very hard problems.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:37Right, and this was one of the first kind of very hard problems that you were working on.Mitch Torrel  3:42It was. So this was my first operational mission, you know, coming out of the pipeline. I got stationed in Okinawa, and this was kind of the first opportunity to showcase what I’d learned and employ. And it was kind of, you know— everybody’s dream is to go through training and then get to action some of those skills and traits that they’ve developed.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:01Right. Well, I imagine it was quite busy, you know, around the clock because you know time wasn’t on their side, and so you were really working against the clock. But I’m curious how you, you know, how do you navigate with urgency as a leader, but still safely? You know, like, how do you manage that, looking at that?Mitch Torrel 4:19Sometimes you got to know when to kind of pull the reins, and that it’s very easy— it was a very urgent situation, right? There’s 13 kids trapped. They don’t have food or water. We don’t know if they’re alive. The cave is continually flooding more and more every hour. But you got to have a plan to go off of. You got to be able to not rush into an emergency and make things worse. And I think off the start, nobody was monitoring who came and went from the cave, and that generated issues. John and Rick, the U.K. and British divers, stumbled on, you know, two would-be rescuers who got subsequently stranded in another section of the cave, and they were able to get them out. And then— and so we realized that taking a step back, generating a plan... When we arrived, there was a key leaders contingent that went into the cave to kind of get information first and foremost. And then we spent the rest of the team. “All right, download the gear, stage everything, prep everything, go get some rest, and then we’re going to generate and come up with a plan in the morning.” But sometimes you got to realize that you can’t move a mountain overnight, and so you need to take time, you know, do a little five-minute huddle and make sure that you have a plan that’s not going to get you further into trouble.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:37Yes, well, it’s such an important role, and I’m thinking about you know those moments where you were like, get some rest as the leader in this, and you know, kind of organizing this. What are the thoughts going through some of your, in your head? And I ask that because I'm thinking about leaders who are experiencing something difficult for the first time, and maybe there is some doubt or, you know, how do you calm yourself through some of those questions you have?Mitch Torrel 5:59I think for new leaders, especially, it’s you don’t have to have all the answers yourself, and that that is first and foremost. I on team and probably one of the most junior guys. Yes, I am in charge as the officer, but the guys who are working with me have been in the Air Force, have done rescue missions, have been doing the job for 15, 18, you know, upwards of 20 years, and so I think understanding that no matter where you’re at in a team, you’re a part of a team for a reason, and you should be able to leverage input, leverage ideas and you shouldn’t be beholden to coming up with everything on yourself. I think delegation is super important. I think getting input and opinions from others is extremely important because sometimes the quietest guy in the room is going to have the best idea, and you need to enable and empower them to speak out. Put them on the spot. You know, “Hey, what do you think? What do you— how do you think we should approach this?” And then your job as a leader is to take all these good ideas, is to empower the team to do its best. And so your job isn’t to carry the water, come up with a plan and do everything on your own. Like, you’re there as a facilitator, and I think that that is the biggest takeaway. I think especially young cadets: Please, please, please leverage, you know, the experience that you’re going to go out and be on a team with.
 
Ted Robertson 7:21Mitch reminds us that urgency and leadership are not the same thing, but slowing down doesn’t mean avoiding difficult decisions either. Sometimes the most important leadership moment comes when you already know something isn’t going according to plan, and you have to decide what to do about it. Jessica Whitney, Class of 2010, offers an exceptionally practical way to think about that moment. Most of us understand integrity as doing what we said we’d do. Jessica challenges us to take that one step further. She distinguishes between keeping your word and honoring your word. Honoring it means speaking up the moment you realize you may not be able to deliver, resetting expectations, taking responsibility, and having the uncomfortable conversation before silence begins to damage trust. Here’s Jessica Whitney.Jessica Whitney 8:20I took an amazing class at the Academy, a leadership class that a friend of mine, again from the lacrosse team, recommended me, and she’s like, “Jess, this class — it’s called Transformational Leadership. It’s way more than that. I really think you need to take this course.” And she was so right because there are so many things that I carry over from that from that course into my leadership, and then just my everyday life, and it was taught by Capt. Carrie Granger, who's now Carrie Zeller. Kind of the main takeaways I had were, one, kind of heard the definition of integrity. We all know the Air Force's definition of, like, doing what you know the right thing when no one's watching, when nobody's looking, but she kind of defined it more as both keeping your word and honoring your word so we all know that keeping your word that’s easy but what does honoring your word mean? And her framework kind of laid out honoring your word is as soon as you realize you're not going to keep your word, notifying the person that it involves, saying when you are going to keep your word, and then cleaning up any mess that you made by not doing it. So a quick example would be, you know, you're running late to a doctor’s appointment. You get in the car, you realize, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to be seven minutes late to the appointment.” Instead of like white knuckling your you know your steering wheel — “Am I going to make it in time?” And you feel guilty when you get there. You immediately call the office. You tell them, “Hey, I’m going to be late to the appointment. I’m going to get there seven minutes late, and you know I realize that this has an impact on you. Like, let me know if I need to reschedule.” Whatever it is, right? Most people are so shocked by this ownership that they are so much more gracious to you in whatever the circumstances are. And on top of that, you're not stressed. You’re not, you know, white knuckling.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:22When it really takes you nine minutes to get there…
 
Jessica Whitney 10:27Exactly. So hopefully you overestimate…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:28Like seven minutes and 40. You’re like, “Mmmm, I’m gonna round down.”
Jessica Whitney 10:32My husband calls that, like, Jess math. I’m like, “Ah, well, that’s fine, it’s fine.” But like, if you think about in the workplace, right? Like you have an assignment, you have something your boss gave you. It’s due Friday. You realize Monday, “OK, there’s no way I’m going to do this.” I can either stress about it, work super late hours, and, you know, like, cause all this extra stress, and then maybe still not accomplish and get the work done, and then show up to my boss on Friday and say, “OK, sorry boss, I couldn’t get it done.” Or on Monday, you bring up the conversation, you swallow your pride and you say, these are my challenges. You manage expectations, and your— you guys together can you know either reassign, get help, or bump the deadline, whatever it is. But now you're no longer living in this, like, fear of, like, I’m going to be late or whatever. Like, you’re able to perform better, and so they in the class they talked about how with integrity everything works, and they talk about the idea of, like, a bicycle wheel, right? There’s spokes on a bicycle wheel, and if all the spokes are intact, it’s gonna run very smoothly, right? That’s keeping your word and honoring your word. You’re performing really well, or when you’re not honoring those spokes, and you're not keeping your word, or you're not honoring your word, some of those spokes are missing. So it’s just going to be a little bit bumpier, and things are going to get done, but they’re not going to get done as well as they would if you were honoring your word.Ted Robertson 11:58Jessica's lesson gives us a useful way to think about accountability, and once an organization has that kind of trust, it becomes possible to have another conversation leaders sometimes avoid: honest feedback. Joe “Paveway” Bledsoe, Class of 2011, comes at feedback through the fighter pilot debrief, and the principle translates remarkably well beyond the cockpit. Joe says effective feedback isn’t about assigning blame; it’s about getting better. The debrief begins with the mission, identifies what happened and why, and ends with a clear path toward improvement. The person isn’t the problem to be solved; the performance is what gets examined? That’s a subtle distinction and a powerful one for anyone who leads coaches or develops other people. Here’s Joe Bledsoe.Lt. Col. Joe Bledsoe 12:52I think the first thing is transparency and honesty right up front. Like this, Naviere, if we were flying together, right, and you were my instructor, your job is not to degrade me as a human, but to prove to me that I made a mistake, with the ultimate goal of making me better, right? Your job is to always like— and the relationship you and I have as an instructor and a student is my. I’m going to sit here in the debrief and go, and Naviere is here to make me better, right? Like that’s your that’s your job, right? So once you start that as the foundation, like it can only get better if I know your job is to make me better, and your job is I'm supposed to make this guy better, right? And often we can, when feedback is provided, you’re like, this could be a personal attack, or like that's all left out, that’s all left outside the debrief room, right? Like we’re here to make everybody better, and I think that’s where it starts with that transparency and honesty up front of the expectation.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:51So you will actually say that?
 
Lt. Col. Joe Bledsoe 13:52No. I think that’s just a common that's a common theme, right? That's the expectation in the community, and not just in the fighter community. I think it’s throughout the Air Force, right? I think that's what makes us really, really unique.Lt. Col. Joe Bledsoe 12:52Because feedback is something that we do, although maybe some can do it better than others. I think that's a really fantastic way. Before you’re giving someone feedback, you're really clear on this is what we're hoping to accomplish by having this time together. And so I think what you just said can make feedback so much more impactful because it's not about the person; it's about what are we trying to accomplish in helping you. I guess it is about you but ultimately helping you.Col. Joe Bledsoe 14:34Absolutely, right? Like where every debrief starts is we had a mission objective and we had tactical objectives. Do we do we do them? If we didn’t, let’s figure out why, right? So, translating to the business world or you know private sector, it’s a root cause analysis. It’s a root cause analysis, and we will get down to the nitty gritty of like, what type of error. Did you make a decision error? Did you perceive the environment wrong? Did your actions cause the error, right? And we get down to that level so that when the student, student Paveway walks away, Naviere knows— Naviere, you gave me the exact… “Like, you decided wrong because X, Y, and Z. Don’t do that again. Here’s your fix.” You know that, and that debrief can take hours, and that’s the beauty of it, right? We’re going to sit there, and we’re not going to let anything not be uncovered because we’re going to go do this again tomorrow, and we can't make the same mistake tomorrow, right? We can’t make the same mistake.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:36No, that’s fantastic. I mean, to have that clear and to know, like, “OK, we’re not going to, we don’t stay in that space. We’ve addressed it. We've we know we’ve identified a fix, and we move forward.” Is that what you would say?
 
Col. Joe Bledsoe 15:47Absolutely.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:48There’s no like continue to revisit. Like—
 
Col. Joe Bledsoe 15:49Yep, That’s the point, right? Like, I’ve learned something. I’ve acknowledged my mistake. Let’s move on. This wasn’t personal; this was you making me better. Iron sharpens iron.Ted Robertson 15:59Joe gives us a framework for conversations that improve performance, but leadership conversations aren't always about correcting something. Sometimes their greatest value is simply letting another person know, "I see you.” Jannell MacAulay, Class of 1998, gives us one of the simplest tools in this entire episode. It’s a question. Jannell suggests replacing the automatic question, "how are you?” with something more intentional. “What’s going well for you today?” The difference may seem small, but the answer can open a real conversation, create connection and even uncover someone who is struggling quietly. Leadership doesn’t always require a speech. Sometimes it begins by asking a better question and listening very closely to the answer. Here’s Jannell MacAulay.Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay 16:57Stop asking people how are you doing, OK? I want them to rephrase that question and ask, “What’s going well for you today?” And the reason we do that is for— there’s two reasons. The first one is when you ask someone how they’re doing, you're going to get— exactly. And most people are just going to give you like, “Busy.” “Good.” “Fine.” “Living the dream.” Whatever, right? But did I as a leader get any information from you when you say any of those in response? No. And then what we do as a leader: “How are you doing? How are you doing? How are you doing?” And then we check the box. And if you happen to have someone who's like, “Oh my gosh, let me tell you,” you're almost like, “Oh my God, good for you. I gotta go. I gotta go,” right? “I didn’t mean for you to tell me.” Because that's our culture again, right? So I want leaders to start asking people, “What’s going well for you?” And that does two things. Now I’m going to get information from you based on your answer, and that information is also going to start training your mind and your psychological framework toward optimism and hope. Because do you know the biggest problem for leaders today, I think, is missing the hopeless people. We think that there’s this binary of optimism and pessimism, and so the optimistic people — we can find them easy. And the pessimistic people — we can find them easy too, right? They’re usually— and we usually focus on the pessimism because they're noisy and they’re loud and they're annoying and they’re bothering us and they’re bothering the whole unit, right? And sometimes we’re like, “Oh my gosh, Bob is so negative and angry. Like, we should worry about Bob.” But the thing is, is that actually, Bob’s not your worry, because people who are pessimistic understand they’re on a sliding scale. A pessimist thinks that there’s a genuine belief that things could get worse, but if you believe things can get worse, you know they can also get better, which is what optimism is: a genuine belief things will get better. So a pessimist— it’s not binary. I want people, leaders, to open up the aperture. There’s optimism, there’s pessimism, and then there’s hopelessness and hope. That’s the second thing. And then the last thing is leaders suffer from what I call compassion fatigue. OK, it's a very real thing. How many of us spend all day at work? It's kind of a combination of decision fatigue and compassion fatigue. You spend all day at work making decisions for other people. You make you spend all day at work taking other people's problems, and if you're an empathetic person, like you take it on, right? You're like, “Oh my God, I feel so bad. Like airmen are struggling with all these things.” Then you go home, and someone at home says, “What’s for dinner?” And you flip out about what's for dinner, right? And it’s like, “Oh my gosh, where did that come from? Like, I didn’t mean to snap.” Or someone in your— that's very important to you in your home life comes to you and needs you, needs your attention, and you're like, “I have no more attention to give you. I have no more compassion to offer because I’m done. I'm empty.” So it’s a very real thing, and it’s not an excuse. I might have given people a label for what’s happening when they go home at night.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:49Like, it’s this thing. I have compassion fatigue.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:52Yes, which is very true, and it's a very real thing. And I’m not giving you an excuse; I’m telling you, you need to fix it. And here's how: You need to every time— like, the whole time you’re at work during the day, you need to shed all the mental distress that happens. You need to shed the empathy, right? Your empathetic— the empathy that you use when you’re in an interaction with someone builds like extra stress into your—  it’s actually in your like body, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:20You take it on.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 20:21Exactly. You take on those physical— and it becomes a physical manifestation. You need to shed that. So what I have is called a waterfall technique.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:30Waterfall?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 20:31Yes. So when you’re, yeah, yep. So when you're engaging with people, remember we don't want to be distracted and not paying attention. So put your phone away once you invite someone in your office. Like don’t have it. It distracts you by 20% if you have it on your body or in your view, right? Just have it put away. So now you’re more attentive. Then I’m going to listen to you when you tell me whatever’s going on in your life, and I’m going to envision we're at the top of a waterfall. Visualization is very powerful for our minds, so we’re going to visualize that waterfall. And I’m talking to you. We're having a conversation. I'm fully present. You might have some stuff going on in your life. Like I might have to take a note. I might have to be OK. Follow up. I might give you some mentorship. But when we’re done, your problems go down the waterfall, right? Like we want to feel “Oh, I’m their commander.” No, it’s still not your problem, right? The problem goes down the waterfall. So then the next person can come in. Now you’re at the top of the waterfall again. I’m fully present with my next person that’s coming in. I’m paying attention to them, not thinking about the other conversation. Then, when we’re done, your problems get to go down the waterfall. It will protect, right, your energy.Ted Robertson 21:33Jannell's lesson asks leaders to be more intentional with their attention, and that raises another question: Where are we choosing to put that attention in the first place. Joel “Thor” Neeb, Class of 1999, argues that as leaders grow, one of the hardest skills they may need to develop is not saying yes; it’s saying no. Joel describes an evolution many leaders experience early in a career. Saying yes can create opportunities, but later effectiveness increasingly depends on deciding what not to do. His warning is worth remembering: The enemy may not be failure; it may be distraction. If everything gets your attention, the things that matter most never receive enough of it. Here's Joel Neeb.
Joel Neeb 22:25My philosophy and how I mentor people that are that are pursuing a path to their dreams and whatever that dream might look like is the following: I tell them, “If you’re younger than 35 years old, you need to say yes to every opportunity that comes your way.” What do I mean by that? When the boss asks you if you’re able to give the big sales presentation, even though the voice in the back of your head says, “You’re not ready for this, I don’t think you’re going to do well,” the answer is yes. You prepare yourself. You go out there. You embarrass yourself. You do it better next time, and that’s how you learn through that process. When they ask you if you’re ready to go lead this mission, your answer is yes. You’re going to figure it out. You’re going to do everything behind the scenes to make sure that you’re successful, and you’re going to push yourself into that discomfort zone and ensure that you’re leaning into all of those opportunities as aggressively as you can. Why? Because it’s exposure to all of those areas of discomfort that really owns the discipline for us to perform in this positive way when you get to those areas. Now, when you’re after 35 years old, the main advice that I give to people is that you’re flipping the script. You are no longer going to say yes to everything you’re asked. You’re going to aggressively say no to everything you’re asked unless it aligns to your key things that you want to pursue. So you’re completely looking at it in a different direction. I’ve said yes to everything for the first half of my life. Now I’m saying no to everything in the second half. Why? Because it’s the distractions that stop us from doing the big things in life once you pass about 35 years old. The better you are at saying no to things, the freer your time will be to say yes to the most important things. So while it looks like I’m juggling a lot of things, to your point, I’m aggressively saying no to everything else that doesn’t align with the few things that I have really focused my time on.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:14So let’s pull that thread a little bit more because saying no is uncomfortable, and it may feel to some that they are letting others down. How do you— how might you coach them through telling someone no?Joel Neeb 24:31Yeah, I would say that I don’t have that problem. I probably did, and certainly prior to cancer, I would have. I am at the place now after I’ve learned how short all of our lives are — not just my life, because I had a cancer battle. And the big surprise for me was not that I might die in 18 months; it was that I was going to die at all. Because for all of us, that notion of death is so far away, and really something that we don’t really come face to face with very often in life, that all of a sudden I had to, you know, accept the fact that I was going to die someday, and I better make good use of the time between now and then. So when people ask to have my time, I aggressively say no. I never feel bad about it, and then I also introduce gatekeepers to my time on top of that. So I don’t even— most of the time, you’re working with my executive assistant. Most of the time, you’re going to be working with somebody on my team, and that’s because I want to jealously guard my time at this stage so I can be as incredibly impactful on the few things that I want to do as possible. That desire dwarfs any emotional attachment I would have to say no to somebody else in that time. Really, just, I mean, it doesn’t even cross my mind to think twice about it.
Ted Robertson 25:48Joel gives us permission to protect our priorities, but priorities shouldn’t make us rigid. Leadership still requires us to read the room, understand the mission and recognize what the people around us need. Kimberly Ford, Class of 1990, learned throughout her aviation career that effective leadership doesn’t always look the same. Kim describes leadership as something we adjust. There are moments that require assertiveness; others demand listening, patience or a different communication style altogether. The lesson isn’t to abandon who you are as a leader; it’s to develop enough range that your preferred style doesn’t become more important than the people and mission you’re there to serve. Here’s Kimberly Ford.Lt. Col. (Ret.) Kimberly Ford 26:42In the military mission, it was more— it was usually time critical, and it called for often a very assertive type of quiet leadership. So you're still bringing that assertive type of quiet leadership, but you’re also bringing customer service to families and passengers who are getting to where they need to go, whether it be a vacation or to visit family, or, you know, taking a businessperson where they need to go. So you’re having that patience, letting people know that they’re welcome, that you're happy to see them on board. You’re working with crew members who may not have that sort of military background, and so there are different communication styles. Different, you know, there are different people, and so you’re really sort of reading who they are and making sure that you can communicate information in a way that is effective for them as a person and their age and experience level. So I think I had to just sort of maybe dial it back a little bit in my presentation, make sure I just gave that great customer service. I would say in the cockpit it is that same — in the flight deck, I’m sorry — you're giving that same pre-resource management, that same building, that same trust within the person who you know, letting them know that you know your job, and that you’re ready to execute. So I would say it’s probably more the same within the flight deck.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:09I would almost go so far as to say is the ability to understand when you need to assert more, and when maybe a more quiet and customer service-oriented leadership style needs to be used. You almost have a superpower of understanding when to employ them. How do you help others who maybe have the other side of the leadership spectrum, where they come in very a very assertive-type leader? How do you help them see the value in your approach that is natural to you?Col. Kimberly Ford 28:38We have a moment at the end of our flights at Alaska Airlines where we sort of we sit back and we basically say, “How do we think that went?” You know, “What could we change?” And so I'm able to sort of give my perspective and maybe how I might have done things or perhaps sometimes the we'll divide duties and the captain will say, “OK I see here maybe you would be great at doing this duty. Could you take this over?” And so I think that's how I can show that maybe a different style of leadership would be would be more effective in those certain situations. And we're trained to really listen and just take in the feedback that's coming towards us. And I would say all of the crew members are very good at listening, adjusting and taking in what's offered to them.Ted Robertson 29:23What we’ve learned from Kim is that knowing how to adapt is valuable when circumstances are changing. It’s even more important when they’re changing faster than you can comfortably process them. Mark Michalek, Class of 1999, experienced that kind of leadership test during the Boulder, Colorado, attack in 2025. His lesson is strikingly simple: Be the steady hand. When information is arriving in real time, the stakes are high and pressure is coming from every direction, a leader can easily become part of the chaos. But Mark offers us another approach: Trust the people around you, create clarity, stay steady. Leadership in those moments isn't about personally doing everything; it’s about giving others enough confidence and direction to do what they're prepared to do. Here’s Mark Michalek. Mark Michalek 30:21Boulder attack happened on June 1, on a Sunday, and so many things happen at one time. You know, our society has changed, where you know it's a 24/7 news cycle, and so this is happening, unfolding in front of you in in real time. And there’s so many things you’re responsible for as the leader. I think when it comes to times of crisis, people want stability. They want reassurances. They want a steady hand to land the plane, and that’s what my focus was on. That although I have the same emotions, anxiety, stress that is happening, we need to be the steady hand to land the plane. Being the leader in that situation, you are getting torn in multiple directions. So you have your employees responding to the scene. You have local law enforcement. You have elected leaders here in Colorado that want to know what’s happening. You have elected leaders in D.C. that want to know what what's happening. To the point where my, like, my phone broke. So many phone calls at once. Like it just— it was fried. And so again, like focusing on, I’ve got to be the steady drumbeat. I’ve got to be measured here to telegraph that we’ve got this, but also a trust and confidence that your people do have it, and to get out of the way. They’re the experts. I’ll block and tackle for them and let them run, and I telegraphed that in our culture and let them run, and they did phenomenal. And I focused on what my responsibility was on, was not on being at the scene and seeing what’s going on in that. It was engaging with executive leaders to be able to understand what we have, what resources we need and to be able to deliver. Now, at that time, given the context of what was happening overseas, we knew this would be an international— of international interest immediately. So it could either go very well and controlled, or it could be absolutely horrible. And so that’s another layer of pressure. And when you go back to the fundamentals at the Air Force Academy of when it matters most, that you buckle your chinstrap on the helmet and you just get to it, and you immediately go into that mode and distance your emotions and thoughts and anxieties and put those to the side and focus on the mission at hand, and we knew when we were giving statements in the press that it would be carried internationally. So a different layer of stress as a leader, you know, we had simultaneous operations. We had the scene. The subject had a makeshift flamethrower and threw Molotov cocktails. There was about 15 victims at the time that were transported. Luckily, he was arrested by a Boulder police officer on the scene. But we also had activity in Colorado Springs, where his house was, so generate search warrants and everything for that, and then a mobile command post to be able to assist Boulder PD.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:19I'm curious, because I remember the reason why you left active duty, or you transitioned from active duty to the FBI because you wanted to be in the things, doing the things. You find yourself now in positions where you’re leading. How have you grown as a leader yourself? What have you learned about yourself in this not being able to be the one doing, but like you said, blocking and tackling? Like, how have you grown yourself?Mark Michalek 33:41So I was a violent crime agent when I first graduated from Quantico, and I did that for about 12 years. And the— it was all about impact for me. So I worked bank robbery and armored car robbery scenes, and I remember this— I remember these scenes as we're talking. But you know, you go to a chaotic scene like that with yellow tape and local law enforcement there, and people crying, and physical evidence, and blood on the ground and people are looking for somebody to take control. And I remember walking out of my car with that gun and badge on my hip, and you could feel it. Here comes the FBI. OK, they’ve got this. And to be able to turn order into chaos, or chaos into order, and create— you know, develop evidence, make a case, prosecute it, provide that sense of closure for victims, that was the juice for me. But then I started to feel the calling of leadership from the military, and I started to see that as you move up the ranks, you’re able to make more and more impact with a greater group of people, but that really motivated me to be able to give back that public safety-kind of motivation in larger and larger groups of people. And often, when it comes to leadership, whether you’re in the military or the FBI, there's kind of this imposter syndrome of like, do I really have this? But you look back and say, “Look at all the things I’ve endured. Look at all the experiences I’ve had. All the different places I've led all over the world, and it's turned out just fine. I’ve got this.”
 
Ted Robertson 35:12We’ve talked about leadership under extraordinary pressure, but I’d like to end our eight lessons somewhere quieter. No crisis room. No cockpit. No command center. Just a grandfather, an 11-year-old boy and a group of people who needed someone to notice. For Matthew Ayers, Class of 1999, one of the most important leadership lessons of his life came from watching his grandfather. His grandfather encountered people in need and did something deceptively simple. He became curious. He asked questions. He built a relationship, and then he acted. Matthew learned that leadership doesn’t always begin with authority, expertise or even a grand plan. Sometimes it begins when we notice another person and choose not to walk past. Here’s Matthew Ayers. Matthew Ayers 36:07I always continue to this day trying to live life like my grandpa. He just was so inspirational in the way he lived, and he’s a very relational servant leader. He pastored most of his life in the Pacific Northwest, but his beginnings were in Wuhan, China, where he was born and raised, and moved to the U.S. when he was 15. Got on a back of a cargo ship, and he and his brother John made their way here. He built railroad with the CCC and flipped burgers. Put himself through high school, college, seminary and he's just got an amazing life. But he was genuinely curious about everyone he met, and so he just modeled that with such joy. I just grew up thinking I want to be like my grandpa. He’s an amazing guy, and so he, yeah, he's got I got unlimited stories about him. That's anyone that really has left a mark on my life. And I was 11 years old, and we were pretty new, about a year or so into living in central Washington state. OK, and he came to guest preach at a local church there, and when he came to visit, of course, we would always go to the local Chinese restaurant. So he disappeared like usual, and we just knew he was back in the kitchen, probably washing dishes, hamming it up with the staff, and soon he comes back out, introducing us to staff, and we have all this free food, and he’s best friends with this couple, so we were just— this was like a normal experience with Grandpa, but on this particular visit, he had some pretty serious conversations after that with my parents, and he had found out that several of the staff were labor trafficked. They were new immigrants from China, and the next day, even as brought me along as a little boy, we go down in a little town into a back alley, knock on a door of a warehouse, no running water, no electricity, no amenities, dirt floor and I see the rats running around. I’m like, “What are we doing here?” And we get to sit down with these people who are serving at this restaurant and can’t speak English and do not know any way to navigate their situation. And he challenged us as a family. Well, he might have just volunteered us, but it was going to happen one way or another that this couple ended up moving in with us, and we got to be like family with them, and had the most incredible experiences cross culturally, just in our own home. And that was my first, maybe you know, shocking example of just the vulnerability of people in every community. It happens everywhere, but at this, what was even more powerful to me about that, and what stays with me, is just how simple it really was looking back, where he just asked the question, and it seemed like such an ordinary, easy thing that that he made it out to be. And looking back, I’m like, well, that that’s not easy for most people, but really, it is an ordinary thing that anyone can do.Ted Robertson 39:26And with Matthew’s lessons, maybe the most fitting place for us to end these eight conversations is with his reminder that leadership doesn’t always announce itself as leadership. Sometimes it’s simply seeing another person, recognizing what the moment asks of us, and choosing to act. Eight leaders. Eight very different experiences, and what strikes me after hearing them together is how accessible these lessons really are. If I were to carry three larger truths from these eight conversations into tomorrow, they would be these: Truth one, leadership begins with intention. Slow down enough to think. Protect what matters. Honor your commitments. Don’t allow the urgency, distraction, or discomfort of the moment to make your decisions for you. Truth two, leadership is deeply human. Ask better questions, give feedback that helps people grow, adapt your approach, create the trust and connection that allow people to bring their best. Truth three, leadership is something we practice. It’s not reserved for extraordinary circumstances. It happens in everyday choices, in how we respond under pressure, how we listen, how we use our time, and whether we notice when someone around us needs something we can give. That’s what I appreciate most about these conversations: different leaders, different experiences, different tools, but every one of them gives us something we can actually use. If any of these conversations spoke to where you are in your own leadership journey, I hope you’ll listen to the full episodes. You’ll find these conversations and many more with Naviere Walkewicz at usafa.org/longblueleadership. That's usafa.org/longblueleadership or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you know someone who could use one of these leadership lessons, share Long Blue Leadership with them, because leadership isn’t something any of us ever finishes learning. I’m Ted Robertson for the Long Blue Line Podcast Network. Thanks for joining me for this special Long Blue Leadership-In Case You Missed It edition. Until next time.
 
KEYWORDS
Leadership, leadership development, leadership lessons, leadership philosophy, accountability, integrity, adaptability, influence, trust, feedback, active listening, curiosity, focus, composure, resilience, decision-making, leading under pressure, servant leadership, personal growth, leadership in action.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 

Great leaders don’t always have the answers. But they know how to build teams that do.
SUMMARY
In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Mitch Torrel ’14 discusses the power of mentorship, constructive feedback, humility and creating an environment where everyone can contribute. His leadership lessons are just as relevant in the boardroom as they are on the battlefield.
 
MITCH TORREL'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
Lead Through Fear, Not Around ItEven when you’re anxious or scared, keep moving forward and executing the mission; courage is acting despite fear, not waiting for fear to disappear.
Trust Your PreparationWhen you hit uncertainty, fall back on the work you’ve already put in — physical, mental, and technical — rather than spiraling about what’s coming next.
Focus on the Team to Get Out of Your Own HeadShifting your attention from your own anxiety to how you can support and elevate others makes hard environments more endurable and improves performance.
Discover You Have “More in the Tank”Don’t treat real missions or selections like workouts; push past your comfort ceiling and you’ll find reserves of mental and physical capacity you didn’t know you had.
Break Big Fears into Small, Daily GainsYou don’t need to be the best today — just better than yesterday; attack weaknesses with small, consistent, incremental progress.
Leverage Mentors and Learn AggressivelyAssume you’re not the first to face a challenge. Seek out people who’ve done it before and copy their mindset, preparation and frameworks to shorten your learning curve.
Make Feedback Normal, Specific, and FrequentBuild team habits where everyone gets clear strengths and weaknesses surfaced (even anonymously at first), then use trends in that feedback to drive personal change.
Balance Urgency with Deliberate PlanningIn crises, don’t rush in just because the situation is urgent. Pause to gather facts, build a simple plan and avoid making the emergency worse.
Use Your Team’s Brains — Don’t Lead AloneAs a leader, your job is to facilitate: Draw out the quiet voices, aggregate the best ideas, and delegate execution rather than trying to be the sole problem-solver.
Set Clear Standards and Red Lines EarlyExplicitly communicate what you will and won’t tolerate so you can enforce discipline fairly and consistently, protecting both people and mission over the long haul.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Opening: Leading Through Fear00:01:27 – Special Tactics Pipeline: Anxiety, Night Sweats and Uncertainty00:03:50 – Trusting Preparation and Learning to Hate the Water Less00:05:40 – Shared Hardship and Team Bonding in the Pipeline00:07:27 – “More in the Tank”: Rucks, Mental Toughness and Selection00:11:14 – Learning from Others, Mentorship and Owning Weakness00:15:36 – Five Traits Torrel Looks for in Leaders00:19:49 – Feedback Culture, Blind Spots and High-Performing Teams00:25:34 – Thai Cave Rescue: First Mission and Leading Under Pressure00:29:59 – New Leaders, Delegation and Facilitating the Team00:36:34 – Failing, Standards and Command Red Lines00:40:24 – Advice to Younger Self and Enjoying Each Season00:43:25 – Transition to Business, Ongoing Service and Final Leadership Charge
 
ABOUT MITCH
BIO
Mitch Torrel, U.S. Air Force Academy Class of 2014, is a former Division I hockey player, Air Force Special Tactics officer, entrepreneur and founder of Sentry Operations. After beginning his Air Force career in pilot training, Torrel found his calling in special operations, completing the demanding Special Tactics training pipeline and serving in operational and leadership roles.
While stationed in Okinawa, Japan, Torrel served as operations officer for the U.S. team supporting the 2018 rescue of 12 young soccer players and their coach from a flooded cave complex in Thailand. The experience, his first operational mission, became one of several defining chapters in a career shaped by high-stakes decision-making, teamwork, resilience and leadership under pressure.
 
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TRANSCRIPTOUR SPEAKERS: Guest, Mitch Torrel ’14 | Host, Lt. Col. (ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz 0:01Sometimes leadership isn't about eliminating fear; it's about learning how to move forward, even if fear is sitting right next to you. I'm Naviere Walkowicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Today's guest is Mitch Teorrel, 2014 graduate of the Air Force Academy, former Division I hockey player, Air Force special tactics officer, also an entrepreneur near the founder of Century Operations. You know you've had a unique career. In fact, many probably know a lot of your work when it comes to an international rescue event, and we'll talk about that later on. But I think what's most exciting about this time with you, Mitch, is how you continue to lead, but you've done it through what some would call overcoming fear or maybe leading through fear. And so I think we're going to have a fantastic conversation today, and I welcome you to Long Blue Leadership.
Mitch Torrel 0:53Naviere, I appreciate you for having me out. Humbled to get the opportunity to kind of share some stories today, and so I'm looking forward to it. Thank you.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:01Well, thanks for the time. We're going to jump right in with the time that you know when we had a chance to talk, Mitch. It was something that kind of surprised me, and I think others will really appreciate this. You know, when you're going through your Air Force special tactics training to kind of be in that role, you experience like night sweats and literally having to change your clothes at night. And I'm looking across to you. You're not sweating right now. You're looking pretty cool and calm. And so take me back to that experience, and let's just start there.Mitch Torrel 1:28Yeah, pipeline is a pretty arduous process. It's two years; every day is a grind. It's difficult. You're not really sure what tomorrow holds, and they keep it that way, pretty close hold. You don't know what you got tomorrow. You just know it's going to be an early rise, and it's going to be really physically taxing. It's going to be mentally demanding, and you're not sure if. I think part of the anxiety is, do I mentally have what it takes to withstand and with withhold another day? Do I physically have what it takes to continue to drive on, and I think that unknown, the unknown on what's to come, am I going to be enough? The two years is a selection process, so you're getting assessed and selected every day, and it's a lot of anxiety to take on because you're not sure how you're going to perform. I think a lot of us have such internal pressures on ourselves to perform in and out every day that it makes it very difficult to get out of your mind and not worry about the anxiety of what's coming tomorrow.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:29Well, it makes me think the closest thing that I can think of right at this moment is you know basic cadet training, which is six weeks, and you just talked about two years of uncertainty and not you know waking up early and not knowing what's next. You know, how did you kind of navigate through that? I think we all know how we navigated through BCT, but I think certainly this is much when it's something that's so enduring. I think that's a different situation.Mitch Torrel 2:51I think a part of goes back to just trusting in your preparation. Did I do what it took to prepare? And if you did, if you didn't, there's not much you can change the night before, and so trusting in your abilities, your ability to adapt, your ability to withstand. I think I hated the water, and they always told you going through the pipeline. If you don't love the water, you're not going to make it through. And I'm a testament to I hated the water every day, dreaded it almost on a daily basis. But you know, learn to overcome and deal with that anxiety and just pressure that it brought. But every day is an opportunity to kind of build that wall up. Your ability to withstand, your ability to deal with anxiety, your ability to deal with the unknown, and I think the pipeline was a really good opportunity for me to kind of grow. I remember when we were in Mississippi, one of the earlier schools. It's three months. Every day was again very arduous. You didn't know it was coming. Are they going to put us in a pool tomorrow? Am I going to drown? You know, am I going to be able to make it through? Am I going to do a good job of leading the team? I think being able to focus on the team allowed me to not worry about myself and kind of focus on something else. And I think worrying about others allowed me to really make it through some of those arduous times, and that was very helpful to me. I remember I probably took a lot longer to grow to the point where you know you're not worried about tomorrow. I used to have to wake up at night, change my sheets, change what I was wearing, you know, and that happened every night because I would just wake up in a dead sweat and I was soaking wet, and eventually, you know, through exposure and through time, you learn to just exist and not worry about what's coming tomorrow. And it's a constant evolution. You know, that's not to say I don't get anxiety about things that are happening tomorrow today, but you start to learn to head off those thoughts early on and allow yourself to just take what comes tomorrow.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:57So I'm thinking about you being in those moments, and when you said it was probably later on, I'm curious as how you know that every night you're changing your sheets, you're going through that. But I'm curious, were there others that were experiencing the same thing, or were others even helping you through navigating those thoughts that you had?Mitch Torrel 5:14I think just being in a team environment makes things so much better. Sharing in in in the suffering, sharing in the stories, and getting to reflect on that. When I look back on the pipeline, what an amazing time and something that I think our entire team looks fondly about. We're very close still, and I think that shared hardship, that shared experience, is something that bonds you together for life.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:41So that two-year journey, and obviously you graduated and became an Air Force Special Tactics Officer. You know what was, I guess, the moment that it clicked for you. You know, you said you got to that point. Do you remember that day? Do you remember what was different, or you just all of a sudden didn't sweat the same?Mitch Torrel 5:57I think it probably lasted for me longer than a lot of people, and you know, it seems like I learned a lot of the lessons hard myself. You know, and but I think it's just something that gradually over time, you know, the way I remember it is one day it stopped, but I'm sure it was a little bit more gradual than that. Like I think over time you just learn to just, hey, tomorrow's going to be no different than it was today. Today was fine. We made it through. The team did great. You know, I performed up to my standard, or maybe if I didn't, tomorrow's another opportunity in which I can go back and get after it again. And there's plenty of times where I look back, and I think it's easy to learn and roll when you're being put in those situations each and every day. And so it was a very growth-oriented couple of years for me, and I really enjoyed it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:52I would have loved to have been working with you on the day after you didn't have to wake up and change the sheets. Whatever you had, you know, you know, you were more alert that day. You actually had better sleep.Mitch Torrel 7:01Yeah, I think definitely had to drink a substantially less amount of water each night before going to bed. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:09Oh goodness! Well, let's talk about — I think you know, there was something that you shared before about kind of uncovering in yourself that you had more in your tank than you thought, and I'm curious that that was during pipeline in those moments that were like you know forced experiences, or if you found that at other times when you kind of surprised yourself in learning that about. Mitch Torrel 7:28I think the entire 10 years was a constant lesson of you've got more in the tank, both physically and mentally. I think when I first decided today, I was going through pilot training, and I just felt like it was more of a hobby than a job. And I got to meet guys in special operations, and was very impressed by the camaraderie, by the caliber of guys that were there. And to me, it was like a hockey team, and I missed that. I missed that group because you wanted to be a pilot first, correct? Is that what you're planning? Yeah, I think my family wanted me to be a pilot. I think they kind of pushed me that direction. I always enjoyed flight, you know. But for me, I just thought that some of my skills and abilities would better translate, and I would have a more fulfilling career, getting to be around you know that type of environment. And I think too, there's always you know, can I make it through the training? Do I have what it takes? You know, what will I learn about myself? And so that was a little bit of kind of just the unknown was alluring, you know. But I think there's just so much every day. Where I remember one of the first selection events, you do a long ruck event, and leading up to training, I was so focused on passing the initial fitness test to just start the assessment that I didn't rock, I didn't do underwater stuff. I was just focused on can I do push-ups? Can I do pull-ups? Can I do the 3-mile run? You know, and that took all my time and energy. And when I got to the ruck, it's unknown time, unknown distance, and they just tell you to go. And I remember I was like, all right, I'm going to treat this like a workout, and I'm going to run for a couple minutes, and then I'll walk for a few minutes, and I'll run for a couple minutes, and that'll help get me through. And I remember Master Sergeant came up to me, and he's like, “Why, why are you walking? And I remember being embarrassed at that moment, where it's do I not have it in the tank where I could have just been running this whole time? Do I want it enough where I can just dig a little bit deeper and showcase that? And I remember that fed me through the next two years, where it's like, do I have the mental hardness? Do I have the toughness? Have I prepared physically, you know, for these events? And so I think that was kind of a good wake-up call. Where it's not a workout, you know, what do you have left in the tank? And I think throughout two years there, went through another direction halfway through my career, and that was another opportunity to kind of dig in the dig in the tank a little bit. Did you approach that one differently? I did, and very proud of you know what I had learned throughout the years, what I was able to showcase. We did a much longer rec event, and I ran the whole thing, and was pretty proud of myself about that.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:22What a fantastic example! Because I'm thinking about you know in in in our work and our profession, we do we think about how can I create something to be distinct, right? How can I do something for the long haul? But you're right. If we don't, if we aren't thinking about how can we perform at our best as part of that, you know, that that equation, then we might not even get to the long haul, right? And so I think that's really powerful that you kind of shared, you know, giving your all and realizing that there was more in there than you originally were trying to like, you know, save. Yeah. Wow, that's a really cool story. I bet there are many examples of that. It was quite. Oh my Did you see others? You know, as you had these moments where you kind of learned these things about yourself, and obviously, I think you know in hockey you probably saw this as well. But have you been able to pull others along with you in these experiences that you've had that you've seen? Maybe others are struggling the same way.Mitch Torrel 11:15I think everybody struggles in different areas, especially in the pipeline. You're learning a lot of different skill sets. You're working on a lot of different things. Cardio is a part of it. Strength is a part of it. Determination. I mean, just — and there's so much. I think you pick up some really good traits from others. Hey, I really like what you're doing, or how you having such success, or how do you navigate this portion? I was always terrible in the water, bad swimmer, horrible underwater. I think when I went through initial selection, somebody pulled me out of the pool after we did underwaters, which is you go down, do a completely underwater, you know, swim underwater, swim underwater for the distance of the pool, and then come back up at a 45-degree angle. And I remember one of the cadre. He pulled me out of the pool, and he said, "You are terrible. Like I wanted to pass out watching you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:22And you're like, "Thank you for that feedback.
 
Mitch Torrel 12:08And so it's getting with people who are really good at it and getting advice. I think something throughout my career that I've been very blessed to have is really good mentorship. And you're typically not the first one to go through a process, find a new job, you know, and having a good network of people who, hey, how did you prepare? What set you up for success, or especially in business now, it's a completely new world for me. And having mentors who are able to help think of it this way, or there's a better way to orient your situation, or prepare yourself, and that's really important to surround yourself with people who, you know, are able to elevate you, make you rethink kind of your approach to things, and then give you tips and advice.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:52So I have to ask, do you like the water today?
Mitch Torrel 12:54I like being on the water, you know, on a boat, you know? Just hanging out.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:59There’s some material between you and the water, so that leads me to this question. I know that was a little comical, but I'm curious when someone, as that's you know a developing leader or wherever they're at in their leadership journey, if they really want to be part of something, but there is something that is fundamentally part of that that they just don't like or they're just not good at, what would be the advice you give them? Because you know some people might be like, I just hate that so much, I won't pursue the thing that I love because that component's in there.Mitch Torrel 13:28I think there's kind of two factors in that. If you hate something so much that you know in your heart that it's not something that you can overcome or you want to deal with on a day-to-day basis, then then maybe that that's not worth you know getting through. But I would also argue that until you give yourself the opportunity to progress and grow and learn to get through whatever that difficulty or whatever that is that you don't like, you won't know. And I think there's a lot of ways to incrementally. You don't have to be the best swimmer today. You just have to be a little bit better than you were yesterday, and I think that was something that we and our team learned throughout the pipeline. Is hey, you don't have to be the best at everything today, but everything that you do today is just making you a little bit better for tomorrow. And so I think breaking down things into manageable and you know smaller bite-sized things that you can you can do. You know hey, when I first started swimming, I couldn't believe people swam multiple laps at a time. You know, and I was like, “All right, I'm going to swim two, you know, 50s at a time tomorrow, and then, you know, next week I'm going to build up to 100,” or, you know, and it doesn't have to all happen overnight.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:45Right. For a moment, I thought two to 100 but you're talking 50s. Well, that's fantastic, and thank you for sharing that because I think what I also gleaned from that is there's some self-discovery that comes from, I really don't like something, a part of you starts to learn, “Really, did I really not like that?” Right? Maybe feared that because I'm not good at that. And so I think I really appreciated your thoughts of you haven't really given your chance to truly assess that.Mitch Torrel 15:10And I think we build things up so much in our head. You know, I think dive school is one of those — “Oh, it's terrifying.” You know?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:16I mean, it probably is, I’m not gonna lie.
 
Mitch Torrel 15:19And it really wasn't. I think we throughout training did a good job. And in preparation, again, you fall back on your preparation. Worked really hard to get there. Put in the extra And it just makes you know those hurdles that at once seem like mountains, you know, just small little hills that you have to go over. Yeah.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:38Well, you mentioned some of those in your life that you realize when you're going through something, you're probably not the first person that's gone through it, and you have that network of mentors. What are some of the traits that— And I think you alluded to, there are five traits in a leader that you really kind of look to, you know, to see. What are those?Mitch Torrel 15:56So drive, you know, and a lot of people that were surrounded with, especially at the academy, or in you know in the soft community, or in the military in general, have drive, and so that's not necessarily a unique characteristic, but it's something that you need in order to make you successful. Interpersonal effectiveness, and so how do I integrate with a team? How do I relate to others? And it can't be cookie cutter for everybody, and because team environments, people you know are different, and that's it's one of those soft and fuzzy skills that you need to work on and develop the way that you communicate, and so can I get my message across? Do people understand it? And that's both in writing, spoken. You know, be nonverbal, verbal, the way that you carry yourself, body language, super important. Problem solving. So that's something that the academy does a good job of exposing you to routinely. Can I solve this problem? How do I get my team to you know get after this complex problem? And so that's another one of those characteristics that we typically assess and select for. I think stress tolerance. You know, Pipeline does a really good job of building you up with that. The Academy, basic training, all of that is just another iteration at how am I handling things when I'm getting yelled at, when there's a timeline, when there's you know things at stake.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:19So I'm curious, were those you've just over time recognized that when I see things or leaders succeeding really well or being able to accomplish things that maybe that others would think impossible, they carry those traits. Is that how you have kind of derived them down to five?Mitch Torrel 17:37I think there's the foundation of it. Obviously, there's a lot of subfacets that go into each of those traits and characteristics and some leaders have you know all five of them in spades. Some of them are much more heavily reliant on some of their characteristics than others, but it's always a good thing to develop the traits that you're lacking. I think feedback is a really important trait and really important characteristic of well-functioning teams, and so how did I do this week? If I didn't do great, you know, like I don't need to be beaten down about it. But people typically want to be high performers, and everybody has blind spots, and so being able to call out those blind spots in a healthy and functional manner is super important because people want to be high performers. And I had the privilege of running and getting to work some of our selection events, and what we found was a really cool trend, which is we used to do weird feedback, and so guys would show up to selection, and right away the first day you'd have a bunch of tasks and events, and we'd bring everybody together and be like, all right, go down the row. Who is the two highest performing guys today? And that's really easy. People love to give praise, and then you go down the line, and you're like, all right, call out the two lowest performing guys and tell them why. And people go, I don't want to do that, and it's like, why? Like, do you not want them to get better? Do you not want them to have the opportunity? We're in Day 1 of day X, and it's not too early to turn their train around. What we saw is typically the guys who are the lowest performing early on are never the lowest performing at the end of the year, and they take that feedback, they internalize it, and they adopt and you know overturn that. And it's really fun to see that progression, but none of that happens if they don't get called out, if they don't get constructive feedback. “Hey, when we were working as a team, you were doing X and Y and Z by yourself, or you know, there's a million reasons why either an action is perceived as hey, you weren't for the team, or you didn't perform the standard.” I think people getting that feedback is what turns that train around.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:49Right, it's almost probably like exactly what they needed. So I'm curious because feedback is challenging. It's hard to I think for some to give feedback. It's hard for some to receive feedback, I'm fascinated because when I think about the pace in which you have had to operate and do things, that you make time for feedback. I'm curious if you could talk about how you guys do that in a way that's received well.Mitch Torrel 20:13I think it, again, it goes back to interpersonal effectiveness, and so you've got to know who do I have on my team? Are they somebody who's going to internalize this or not take it very well? There's a bunch of different ways in which you can get feedback and then provide it to somebody. Where we used to early on in the pipeline, as guys were learning to get feedback and you know not you know get too shaken up about it. Is we would have guys write, all right, hey, everybody on our team, we're going to do three things they do well, three things you wish they'd improve on, and then we strip out the names and we provide just a list of hey, here your three things that you're doing really well, and then here are your three weaknesses that you know everybody said we go around we talk about it, and that was a really good kind of introduction, where it's not tanked to anybody. Right. And then what's really nice is you start to see trends. So it's really easy for people to be like, “Oh, you know, Mitch doesn't like me,” or, “That's Mitch's opinion.” But when you start to see that correlation of, well, I got this five times. Is hey, my body language day to day is probably not where it needs to be, or I'm constantly putting others down, or I'm just you know not showing up on time, just small things, and I think drawing awareness to that and getting buy-in from guys to change it, and you see that transition all the time, where, all right, like, now I'm aware of it, I can fix it, I can identify it, and then you get the team to hold you accountable with it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:44Well, in the way that you just described that, I'm curious how often you think that it's, you know, relevant or should be practiced. Is it, like, in the moment? Is it something, like, that where it's weekly? But I think, what I think is really neat about that — it was never attacking, and it was never something they had to defend. It just seemed like it was just information. Like it's what you do really well. This is what you need to work on. And taking the attribution away from it, like who said it? I think just made it, you know.Mitch Torrel 22:09And I think everybody got to understand that you're a student, you know, of life and a student of your job. You're a student of life. You're a student of you know whatever position you're in. And I had a mentor growing up and played professional sports, and there was a conversation where, hey, “How do how do you know when it's time to retire? How do you know when you're done?” And it's when I stop improving and I stop learning. And so having that mentality where, no matter how long you've been around, there's things to improve upon, there's things to learn, is really hard to have because people, you know, you get comfortable in a position. It's like I've seen it all, I've done it all, I've been there. But the people who are the best at their jobs, and especially in the military, the people who show up every day, work on their trade, work on their skills and seek to improve, and I've been blessed to be surrounded by just, I mean, some of the most decorated warriors that the Air Force has put out on the battlefield. And it was a humbling experience, but even more so humbling was the approach they took every day. As they came into work every day and got better at something. They didn't sit on their laurels and “Hey, I did this two years ago, and now I can kind of walk through the rest of my career.” It was— they came in every day to work, and it was impressive.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:30Oh man! What is something that and normally asks at the end, but it just seems so fitting right now. Like, how are you getting better and learning every day?Mitch Torrel 23:38I think every day is new problem sets, and I think it's you know trying to expand my education. I think there's a lot of new tools out there. There's a lot of new opportunities and think the world's constantly changing. And so, staying informed is one of the ways in which I'm trying to be a better leader. I think business is this completely new hurdle. I think being in the military, there's a very different type of leadership that you're able to bring. And two, I mean, everybody is there for the mission generally and believes in the task and purpose. And business now, you kind of need to appeal to people in a lot more of a well-rounded manner. And so, I think having conversations with mentors, you know, I'm maintaining that. I try and just meet as many people as I can and glean information from them, experiences from them, because I'd like to think I'm getting smarter as I get older. I'm trying to learn all the lessons myself. So…Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:39Well, I'm grateful for that because the reason why we're talking here is because you answered, you know, and we're willing to talk about it. So I think that's you know just proof right there of that stretching and outreach. So before we shift into, I'm curious on you know you talk about you asked your mentor when does he know it's time to retire. I would love Kind of the business world, but before that, I'd like to visit actually one of your experiences while you're in in service, and you know it's something there's you know there's a movie on it. We actually featured in our 2018 checkpoint, but you were instrumental in rescuing the boys' soccer team in Thailand when they had a huge monsoon. And I was wondering if you kind of take me not so much. Maybe you can share with others in case they aren't familiar with it. But I'm really curious about the leadership piece of that because it was a huge operation, and it was dealing with water. So let's talk about that.Mitch Torrel 25:34Yeah, exactly — my nightmare. You know what? I just happened to be in the right time at the right place. There was a team of pararescue men and combat controllers stationed out in Okinawa, Japan. There was a group of soccer players who got stranded in a cave after the monsoons came early and had flooded out a section. The Thai leadership and parks team, and then eventually the Thai Navy tried to attempt a rescue, and they weren't able to action it. So they reached out to the U.S. Embassy and asked if we had anybody in in the region who could come help. And that just happened to be our team out in Okinawa. I think it was definitely a challenge. There wasn't a lot of information when we left out the door. It was either, you know, is 13 individuals stuck in a cave. We don't know what the hurdles are. We don't know what's been tried. We don't know anything. We don't even know if they're alive. Oh my goodness. And so, getting on the ground, there was a lot of information to take in. There's a lot of people who were trying to help, trying to facilitate a rescue, working, you know, their own agendas, and I think coordinating and making sense of all that chaos was kind of the first task.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:47And so, what was your role? So, you know, obviously, like the call came in, and then you know, you were — that was, you know, your, you know, was assigned to that. What was your piece, and like, how did you navigate that chaos?Mitch Torrel 26:58So I felt like I had the best job out of you know anybody there. I got to be the operations officer, and so I was kind of the troop commander for the team that we had out. And you know, meanwhile, my leadership had to you know liaise with the other leaders. I got to be kind of down and in focused. All right, what plans are we working? How are we coordinating and liaising with our Thai counterparts? And got to be a little bit more down and in. And so I really enjoyed that part, and that was kind of why I got into special operations in general as I wanted to be, you know, working with a team of really, really high-functioning individuals on very hard problems.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:38Right, and this was one of the first kind of very hard problems that you were, you know, working on.Mitch Torrel 27:43It was. So this was my first operational mission, you know, coming out of the pipeline. I got stationed in Okinawa, and this was kind of the first opportunity to showcase what I'd learned and employ. And it was kind of, you know, everybody's dream is to go through training and then get to action some of those skills and traits that they've developed.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:02Well, I imagine it was quite busy, you know, around the clock because you know time wasn't on their side, and so you were really working against the clock. But I'm curious how you, you know, how do you navigate with urgency as a leader, but still safely? You know, like how do you manage that?
Mitch Torrel 28:21I think, sometimes you got to know when to kind of pull the reins, and it's very easy— it was a very urgent situation, right? There's 13 kids trapped. They don't have food or water. We don't know if they're alive. The cave is continually flooding more and more every hour. But you got to have a plan to go off of. You got to be able to not rush into an emergency and make things worse. And I think off the start, nobody was monitoring who came and went from the cave, and that generated issues. John and Rick, the U.K. and British divers, stumbled on you know two would-be rescuers who got subsequently stranded in another section of the cave, and they were able to get them out. And then, and so we realized that taking a step back, generating a plan. When we arrived, there was a key leaders contingent that went into the cave to kind of get information first and foremost. And then we spent the rest of the team, all right download the gear, stage everything, prep everything, go get some rest, and then we're going to generate and come up with a plan in the morning. But sometimes you got to realize that you can't move them out in overnight, and so you need to take time, you know, do a little five-minute huddle and make sure that you have a plan that's not going to get you further into trouble. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:38Yes, well, it's such an important role, and I'm thinking about you know those moments where your like, “Get some rest,” as the leader in this, and you know, kind of organizing this. What are the thoughts going through some of your in your head? And I ask that because I'm thinking about leaders who are experiencing something difficult for the first time, and maybe there's some doubt, or you know, how do you how do you calm yourself through some of those questions?Mitch Torrel 30:00I think, for new leaders, you don't have to have all the answers yourself, and that is first and foremost. I on team, and probably one of the most junior guys. Yes, I'm in charge as the officer, but the guys who are working with me have been in the Air Force, have done rescue missions, have been doing the job for 15, 18, you know, upwards of 20 years, and so I think understanding that no matter where you're at in a team, you you're a part of a team for a reason, and you should be able to leverage input, leverage ideas, and you shouldn't be beholden to coming up with everything on yourself. I think delegation is super important. I think getting input and opinions from others is extremely important because sometimes the quietest guy in the room is going to have the best idea, and you need to enable and empower them to speak up, put them on the spot. You know, “Hey, what do you think? What do you— How do you think we should approach this?” And then your job as a leader is to take all these good ideas, is to empower the team to do its best, and so your job isn't to carry the water, come up with a plan, and do everything on your own. Like, you were there as a facilitator, and I think that that is the biggest takeaway. I spend, especially young cadets, please, please, please leverage you know the experience that that you're going to go out and be on team with.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:22I think that's fantastic advice. And as you look back on it today, I know we chatted a little bit earlier. I said, gosh, you know, it probably it's a while ago, but maybe it feels like yesterday, and you said no, it feels like forever ago. You know, have you seen yourself? You learn from that, but have you grown in the way that you continue to do things now because of that experience?Mitch Torrel 31:43I think everything is additive. You know, I mean that was a huge learning experience. It was I learned a ton. I think there are several things that having a second shot at it that would have done substantially different. I think the outcome ended up in a very happy manner; I think it's very easy now that we've developed this framework. Here's how we tackle this problem, but that's been applicable in other means and other avenues as well. And so again, you know, as you build your toolbox of experience, as you build kind of these traits, and you get to refine that, it's something that you continually get to bring out in other manners. And so yeah, I grew a lot from the event, learned a lot, and have been able to apply it since.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:29Well, as I've been sitting across from you, one of the things that I'm just feeling in spades is that as a leader, you are somebody that's really humble, and you know you approach it, like, through humility. And so I'm curious, you know, how you've seen that carry you, and what you might share with others when they're thinking about, you know, how do I, you know, as I'm leading, how do I lead? Like how do I lead with humility? Because it seems like it's working very well for you.Mitch Torrel 32:51I think it was easy to be humble when you're surrounded by the caliber of individuals that I was blessed to be around mean, every team I was on, it was. I mean, they were phenomenal guys who have done phenomenal things in their career and were just so impressive. And so I was just always just thrilled to be a teammate of theirs. I think, really going back to you know, again, your job as a leader is to facilitate the team, is to you know drive you towards mission accomplishment. I think if you always put things back onto why we here, it's not for leadership's sake, leaders don't exist, you know, outside of facilitation, and you know it's not to downplay the job of the leader. It's not at all. It's a big responsibility. You have the authority. You have the — you know all of that, and so now it's your job to delegate that accordingly and efficiently. And I think it's going back to just understanding that again, we exist for the mission. We exist to enable that team to accomplish whatever its task or business you know directive is, and so I think having an understanding of that, and then it's just fun to see people progress, right? You know that the cave rescue was my first mission, but that didn't mean because I hadn't had real world experience that I didn't have things that I could bring to the table, and I think it's understanding that as well as humility is important. Like maybe you know not jumping across the table and you know declaring yourself the king of whatever's going on, but individuals have a lot that they bring to the table. You know, having an ability to you know see other things that aren't being looked at, bring other perspectives to the table, even just making sense of the chaos. You know, and that's not something that you need to be a leader or in a leadership position to do. And being forward leaning enough to anticipate hurdles, second, third order effects. What else needs to be accomplished or taken care of? I mean, there's a lot of ways in which you can provide value.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:56Mitch, have you always kind of been this way? Have you always kind of operated in that space or is it something that you've kind of learned over time about yourself, or taken on from others you've seen?Mitch Torrel 35:06I think it's something that's developed. You know, I don't think you know. I think there's a little bit of nurture and nature into it, where you know you're born a certain orientation where it's like, hey, you're comfortable being you know in charging groups, and some people aren't, and that's OK. But a lot of people develop into it, and I think I've just been blessed with a lot of opportunities to try things out, fail, come back to the drawing board, work on it, improve, and you know the pipeline was monumentally developmental for me. I'm sure there's a lot of teammates who you know listen to this and laugh pretty hard about you know some of the stupid things that I did going through the pipeline, but they're learning experiences, and we had a really good group, and we pushed each other so hard, and so I had an assistant troop commander who was going through with me, and we had really healthy camaraderie, but a really healthy. I mean, we were constantly competing, and it just drove me to be so much better. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:07So, you know, we were talking about how you are continually working on being better, right? Being better than you were yesterday, so that it's always kind of an additive improvement. I'm curious on when you've seen yourself fail. You talked about you failed and you've gotten better. Can you share an example of when you have failed and that literally shaped something very quickly instead of being additive, but quickly that you changed in the way that you already did.Mitch Torrel 36:34I think just failures and take care of people, I think is one of the biggest things to learn is, you know, going through the pipeline, it's easy to you know lose sight of the overall end state. And at the end of the day, it's your goal is to there be there to make people better incrementally every day. I think there's been a couple situations in which maybe I was a little ax on some enforcement of rules or standard that came back to kind of bite us a little bit, you know. And so, and this this will probably feel free to cut this, you know. But I think there was an opportunity guys going through a pipeline. They're really young. I grew up, you know, in northern Minnesota, and you know, people drink underage. I was hey I'm OK hearing about it or you know like I'm you know as a commander it's like if it happens it happens you know but I think what's hard is how do you enforce the rules if you're looking the other way if you're not enforcing that standard and so I think what's really hard is you can be there be one of the guys but you got to set your red lines you got to set hey here's what I will and will not tolerate and so I think I learned early in the pipeline that if I'm OK or if I let the standard slip on certain things, you know, like guys drink underage, like guys do you know stupid things, and then they get in trouble for it. How do I, as a commander, enforce it? And so it was one of those learning experiences where going through the pipeline, guy had you know you know got found drinking underage, and it's like, “Hey, it's on you as the, you know, officer to discipline them.” It's like, “Well, I'm also a part of the problem because I didn't set that standard. I, you know, allowed it.” And so I think that was one of those heavy learning experiences where, you know, you're — yes, you're the quarterback of the team, but you got to there has to be some delineation between you know between what you allow and what you can't.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:49I'm really glad you shared that because I think that's real. I think that is something a challenge that you know, especially when I think about the Class of ’26 that just graduated and they just finished their six days of leave, and they're soon to head onto their bases, right? You know, the world doesn't always turn out, and so how do they navigate some of those things that they're going to inevitably come across? So I think that's a real conversation, and I really appreciate you sharing that.Mitch Torrel 39:14And I think what I started doing, you know, from then on is, is you as a commander, you as a officer, should have you know your command guidance. It should be your checklist. Hey, here's what I value. Here's what my red lines are, and you gotta set the standard immediately to just let people know, “Hey, like here's what I'm gonna be irritated about if you show up late to meetings.” If, you know, here's what you know I'm not gonna handle any moral, legal, or ethical issues. Like if it's not moral or legally or ethically a problem, like my job is to you know delegate that down to you and allow you guys to do it. And so setting that standard early as leaders is extremely important because then it allows you to enforce, uphold the standard, and be like, "Hey, we talked about this. This is the expectation. You understood the expectation, and now I can hold you accountable.” And it's not me coming after you because we sat down and had a conversation.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:13That's right. That's excellent advice. So one of the things that we like to do is ask you if you were sitting across, not Navid now, if you're sitting across young Mitch. What was what piece of advice you'd share with him?Mitch Torrel 40:25I think, enjoy the period in which you're in every stage. I feel like every four years, I look back on the previous four years and just think about what an amazing time period that was. And you know, getting to play hockey, going to the academy, the academy was amazing. You're hanging with your friends. You're in college, and you know, increasingly as you age, it's going to be increasing responsibility. There's going to be a lot more you know burden on your shoulders, but it's fun, you know. And progression is fun, moving on to the next stage. But I think enjoy where you're at in life a little bit more. It would kind of be my advice. And then, you know, I don't necessarily regret anything, but it's you know continually to just work hard, progress, and you know have those cups coffee, learn from other mentors, you know, expand your network, and just grow.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:20What are you doing now that helps you enjoy life?
Mitch Torrel 41:25I think right now, so just moved, and you know, right now I'm trying to focus on a little bit more me, you know, be a little healthier with sleep, eating, you know, and just I think it's easy to kind of burn the candle at both ends, and now it's kind of taking a step back and understanding that you need to be rejuvenated, you need to you know unplug periodically to be able to bring your all to you know what you're working on, and sometimes things get monotonous, and sometimes you know you just need to take a step back and reinvigorate yourself.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:58I love that. That's fantastic. So, today, in today's terms, what are you most proud about yourself when it comes to? And if I word this right, maybe I say, what are you most proud about in being a facilitator? I want to say being a leader, but I wonder if you're going to answer that. I'm really good at facilitating high-performing teams. I'm curious how it goes.Mitch Torrel 42:19I think what I'm most proud about is just looking back at the people I've had the blessing of coming across and just seeing them grow in their life. You know, like I think we allow sometimes in in the military where everybody's going to leave the military at some point, and that's OK. You know, I’ve got friends who stayed in for 2030, years and done phenomenal things. I've got friends who've gotten out, and you know progressed in their professional careers, and to me, it's just fun to see where everybody ends up. Like I love seeing people have success, and especially people who, you know, I may or may not have helped at least a little bit. You know, or you know, at least been a bad example of what not to do. But I think, yeah, it's the relationships that I look back on, and I'm just very happy to have you know gotten to know the people that I've come across.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:13Well, you yourself made that transition, I think, from you know active service and obviously an entrepreneur. You know, what's some advice you might give someone in in that kind of decision calculus of transitioning their career?Mitch Torrel 43:26I think it just goes back to again, am I am I continually am I student of the game? Am I showing up every day invigorated to learn and be better at my job? And you know maybe if the answer is if not, you need to step away for a little bit, reinvigorate yourself, reprioritize your life. And sometimes it's just, hey, I've got some goals that I've set out to get after, and sometimes your path diverges, and that's OK. And I think in my case it was I had some things that I wanted to accomplish in life that the — it was just time for me to, you know, change my path, of course. And so it wasn't. I loved the military. I loved the team environment, the camaraderie, the units that I got to be part of were phenomenal, and I miss that every day. But sometimes you just got to, you know, understand where you're going and you know set out and accomplish those goals.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:20Well, I think there's been a theme across many of the graduates I get to speak with, and service continues even out of uniform. So I think that that definitely speaks volumes. So Mitch, was there anything today that we didn't cover that you would love to share with our graduate community, even if it's just words of encouragement?Mitch Torrel 44:37No, I think it's just you know continue to build your skill set, build your toolbox, understand that every day is an opportunity to learn to better communicate, to invest in yourself, to professionalize you know your approach to things and building discipline, building you know your approach to complex problems, and I think a lot of us just want to check the box and move on and get you know. But every day again is an opportunity to better yourself, and so I think that that's what I would impart on, you know, younger next generation who are going to solve tomorrow's hard problems, who are going to be in these complex positions that we can't even fathom.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:21Well, there are so many amazing things that we covered today that I think many can take back and internalize and find the way that it connects to them. But something that really stood out to me, just first and foremost, with you mentioned that you're more authentic and you just live with your heart. And so I think that came out in spades. I loved learning that you know leadership to you started with really kind of looking inward and what you really wanted, right? You could have gone a path of a pilot, and you could have done well, but you recognize that there is something that you wanted to do that might be more fulfilling with your skill set and align better with you. I think that that is that awareness as a leader is really important. I also really appreciate how you continue on focus on better every day, and you don't have to be the best tomorrow. But you need to be better than you were, and you're competing against yourself every day while lifting others up. I think the other thing that I really just enjoyed about you is remembering that the leader, yes, does have responsibilities to make decisions and you know, you know, advocate and empower others, but you're a facilitator and making sure that you help others have their voices bring out the best so that you actually can bring out the mission to success. So it's been an incredible conversation. I've thoroughly enjoyed this. So I just truly appreciate you being on Long Blue Leadership.
Mitch Torrel 46:33No, thank you.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 46:35Absolutely. And so, for any of you that are still watching and listening to this, be sure to share this with others because the leadership journey is one that it never ends. Right? We're always growing and evolving, and this conversation and all of our conversations on Long Blue Leadership with the lives of Air Force Academy graduates can just help you in your own personal journey. So, see you next time on Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkowicz. Thank you.
Mitch Torrel 46:56Thank you.
 
KEYWORDS
Leadership, fear, resilience, mental toughness, preparation, adaptation, team cohesion, shared hardship, humility, mentorship, feedback, continuous improvement, self-awareness, stress tolerance, problem solving, interpersonal effectiveness, communication, delegation, accountability, standards, courage, growth mindset, trust, mission focus, servant leadership.
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 

“The people you're trying to lead may become your greatest teacher.”
SUMMARYMatthew Ayers ’99 believes leadership isn't about having all the answers. It’s about listening, learning and serving with joy.
Hear how experiences at the U.S. Air Force Academy, on a U.N. peacekeeping mission and leading Dream Centers of Colorado Springs transformed his understanding of leadership.
MATTHEW'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP LESSONS1. Leadership Begins with Ordinary ActsMatthew's grandfather didn't set out to do extraordinary things—he simply noticed people, asked questions, and invited them in. Great leadership often begins with small acts of compassion that have lifelong impact.
2. Lead with Joy
One of the defining characteristics of Matthew's grandfather was his joy. Even in difficult circumstances, he demonstrated that joy isn't the absence of hardship—it's a choice that gives others hope and the courage to move forward.
3. Stay Curious About People
Matthew learned that leadership starts by genuinely wanting to know people and understand their stories. Curiosity builds trust, broadens perspective, and opens the door to meaningful relationships.
4. Integrity Is Lived, Not Signed
His experience during a United Nations peacekeeping mission revealed that values aren't proven by an oath—they're revealed in everyday decisions. Leadership requires the courage to live your principles, even when circumstances become complicated.
5. Influence Doesn't Require Authority
Serving alongside people outside his chain of command taught Matthew that leadership often happens through relationships rather than rank. Quiet, consistent influence can move an organization—and a mission—forward one conversation at a time.
6. Presence Is Sometimes the Greatest Gift
Whether comforting cadets during tragedy or supporting people in crisis, Matthew discovered that leaders don't always need the perfect words. Simply showing up and being present can have a lasting impact.
7. Listen Before You Lead
Matthew's work reinforced that the people closest to the problem often hold the clearest vision for the solution. Leaders who listen deeply make better decisions because they're willing to learn before they act.
8. Let Others Become Your Teachers
One of the most powerful themes of the episode is that leadership is not about always being the teacher. Matthew believes the people we serve—and the people we lead—often become our greatest teachers if we're humble enough to learn from them.
9. Transformation Happens Through Action
Leadership isn't mastered in a classroom alone. Matthew reminds us that principles become convictions only when we wrestle with them in real life, applying them through service, relationships, and everyday decisions.
10. Leave People Better Than You Found Them
Looking back on his grandfather's influence, Matthew's own leadership philosophy comes into focus: serve others with humility, model joy, remain teachable, and help people flourish. The greatest legacy a leader leaves is the positive impact they have on the lives of others.
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Opening: Sometimes the Greatest Teachers Aren't the Ones We Expect
00:00:53 – Meet Matthew Ayers, USAFA Class of 1999
00:01:38 – The Story That Changed Everything: Grandpa, Joy & Two Strangers
00:08:47 – Justice Begins at Home: Lessons Passed from One Generation to the Next
00:15:12 – Ethiopia: When Integrity Is Tested in the Real World
00:24:31 – The Difference Between Signing an Oath and Living It
00:31:26 – The Child Who Became the Teacher
00:39:08 – Why Great Leaders Never Stop Being Students
00:45:51 – Leading Through Joy, Compassion & Presence
00:52:37 – Leadership in Practice: Listening Before Leading
00:58:44 – Matthew's Leadership Philosophy
01:03:28 – Advice to His Younger Self
01:06:14 – Final Reflections: Leave People Better Than You Found Them
 
ABOUT MATTHEW
BIO
Matthew Ayers, USAFA Class of 1999, is the founder and CEO of Dream Centers, a Colorado Springs nonprofit dedicated to serving women, children, and families through comprehensive healthcare, behavioral health services, and transformational housing. Before founding Dream Centers in 2011, Matthew served as an Air Force officer, managed air and space programs, taught at the U.S. Air Force Academy, and deployed as an unarmed military observer with the United Nations Mission in Ethiopia and Eritrea.
A passionate student of leadership, theology, and community development, Matthew believes the most meaningful leadership begins with humility, service, and a willingness to learn from others. Through his work and volunteer service, he continues to champion innovative approaches that strengthen families, empower communities, and create lasting change. Matthew lives in Colorado Springs with his wife, Amber, and their two children, Zeke and Halle Joy.
CONNECT WITH MATTHEWLINKEDIN  |  DREAM CENTERS
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Guest: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Matthew Ayers ’99  |  Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Sometimes the greatest leadership lesson isn't learning how to teach others; it's discovering that the people you're trying to lead may become your greatest teacher. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99 — Long Blue Leadership starts now. Well, welcome. Our guest today is Matthew Ayers, class of ’99. Yes, my classmate. Welcome, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Let me tell you about Matthew from his military service, where he served in international peacekeeping. Then he went into the classrooms of Fairchild Hall, onto leading an organization called Dream Centers, where he's the CEO, really focusing on a vulnerable set of our community. It's such a pleasure to have you here today, Matthew.Matthew Ayers 0:46Love being here. Thank you, Naviere.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:48Absolutely. Well, we're going to jump right in because your story is so unique and so personal. I'd like to take us back in time and talk about your grandfather. I know we had some time talking about him, but I think it's well worth that our listeners and our watchers get to know him a little bit more as well. Let's talk about your grandfather and maybe a particular act of courage.Matthew Ayers 1:09OK, yeah, he's my hero, and I always continue to this day trying to live life like my grandpa. He just was so inspirational in the way he lived, and he's a very relational servant leader. He pastored most of his life in the Pacific Northwest, but his beginnings were in Wuhan, China, where he was born and raised, and moved to the U.S. when he was 15. Got on a back of a cargo ship, and he and his brother John made their way here. He built railroad with the CCC and flipped burgers, put himself through high school, college, seminary, and he's just got an amazing life. But when I got to know my grandpa as a little boy, he was smoking cigarettes like a chimney and in the local bowling league and playing cards with his neighbors.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:01I can visualize this man. Yes. Yes.Matthew Ayers 2:06He was just everybody's person, and he could hang out with anyone. No one was a stranger, and he was genuinely curious about everyone he met. And so he just modeled that with such joy. I just grew up thinking I want to be like my grandpa. He's an amazing guy, And so I’ve got unlimited stories about him, about someone that really has left a mark on my life, and I was 11 years old, and we were pretty new, about a year or so into living in central Washington State. And he came to guest preach at a local church there, and when he came to visit, of course, we would always go to a local Chinese restaurant.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:53And did he say it wasn't as good as when he grew up, though?Matthew Ayers 2:57It was not nearly as good, but he still enjoyed it. He still would enjoy it wherever he went. And so he disappeared like usual, and we just knew he was back in the kitchen, probably washing dishes, hamming it up with the staff. And soon he comes back out, introducing us to staff, and we have all this free food, and he's best friends with this couple. So we were just this was like a normal experience with Grandpa, but on this particular visit, he had some pretty serious conversations after that with my parents, and he had found out that several of the staff were labor trafficked. They were new immigrants from China, and the next day, he brought me along as a little boy, we go down in our little town into a bag alley, knock on the door of a warehouse, no running water, no electricity, no amenities, dirt floor, and I see the rats running around. I'm like, "What are we doing here?” And we get to sit down with these people who are serving at this restaurant and can't speak English and do not know any way to navigate their situation. And he challenged us as a family. Well, he might have just volunteered us, but it was going to happen one way or another, that this couple ended up moving in with us, and we got to be like family with them, and had the most incredible experiences cross culturally just in our own home, and that was my first, maybe you know, shocking example of just the vulnerability of people in every community. It happens everywhere, but what was even more powerful to me about that, and what stays with me, is just how simple it really was looking back, where he just asked the question, and it seemed like such an ordinary, easy thing that that he made it out to be. And looking back, I'm like, well, that that's not easy for most people, but really, it is an ordinary thing that anyone can do.Naviere Walkewicz 5:07Ask a question and bring someone in, right?Matthew Ayers 5:10That's it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:46I'm thinking about you as an 11-year-old, and you said it was kind of your first real glimpse of that experience. How did that shape you as you grew up? Because they were with you, right? And so, first off, did you did you learn to speak Chinese?Matthew Ayers 5:27No, I learned a few phrases. I should have though. I remember even the simple things like these cross-cultural miscommunications we had about ruining laundry and just doing things so differently that made us sometimes laugh and sometimes have some pretty tense moments. But it was it was all of us learning together. How do we do this? And I think one of my favorite memories was one of these people — they were they just had this incredible ability to do this unique art form of laying small colored thread, and would take months and hundreds of hours per piece of art, and just the beauty of getting to introduce into this art of her culture that was in particular from this region she was from. So we just, I mean, we had so many rich experiences like that.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:29I can imagine. So taking a leap forward, what was part of your journey that led you to the Academy? And when you went to the Air Force Academy, was your goal in mind to think about how to either participate or engage in things cross culturally, or was that just part of your upbringing and your makeup?Matthew Ayers 6:50Yeah, I thought you might ask me this, and I have nothing here. Honestly, I saw pictures of the Rocky Mountains. I love the beauty of Colorado. It just seemed magical to me, coming from this little town in central Washington, and I wanted to snowboard, so it came with some, you know, really good university education. It was a win-win.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:13Yes. So getting into the Academy, you know, obviously drawn by the aesthetics. What about the service in the military do you think really called you? And would you say that started, you know, with your grandfather, or was that something else you saw throughout just your childhood?Matthew Ayers 7:29My mom and dad modeled it well, of course. My dad found an amazing and safe place in my mom's home, where she grew up in Wenatchee, Washington, and so they really had this model of my grandpa and grandpa Paul and Lydia serving continually, and they modeled that in our home, in our community, in our neighborhood. I mean, from as young as I can remember, my dad was leading leadership camps for high school students in Washington State and doing incredible things to serve. And servant leadership, which is always kind of a part of the conversation. So it was like the water that we got to swim in.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:09It seems so when you talk about your grandpa and your parents, it feels very warm and comforting and secure. And when I think about our time at USAFA, Matthew, it was — you know while it was, you know, in this ecosystem, and yes, you know, we were growing as leaders, I would say there was chaos around us, you know? How did you navigate that with such a different kind of upbringing, and by what you saw in leadership.Matthew Ayers 8:37Yep. That is, I think, really insightful, and it's probably — it could be the most powerful part of my growing up, my formation in my family. Because my grandpa, when he did these hard things that were ordinary, but you naturally create friction in these situations where you're serving and helping and bringing cross cultures together and bringing people in need, including us. We needed to be educated in that situation, understanding what was happening in our own community and understanding how to serve. And you don't — there wasn't a formula for that, and we didn't have a lot of coaching or training. Grandpa just pulled us in, and so we learned through doing this kind of life together. And I think that that was the power of it: is that he did it with such joy. So you describe it as this warmth, and absolutely it was. And so having that mindset, I think, built this resilience in us to have joy no matter what the situation was, and to hold those things intentionally. You know, sometimes things are really difficult and sad and sorrowful, but to still be able to carry joy into those situations, you're really able to have that impact on somebody who may need that. So even coming to the Academy and experiencing that, especially the chaos of the first year, it felt like a little bit of a challenge. Like, how do we have joy through this?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:05Well, I think I would have loved to be in your squadron because it sounds like you would have brought some joy to us for sure. Let's talk about after the Academy. There was a particular time while you were serving, you went on to work in — I think it was 2005 — you were part of a United Nations peacekeeping mission. Can you talk about some of that experience and how it maybe shaped you? Because I think it was a really transformational moment as well in your leadership journey.Matthew Ayers 10:33It was. It was. I was in the acquisition career field, and so I didn't have much opportunity to go overseas, but although I really wanted to. So this was one of those few things that I could thankfully got some approval from our commander and got to apply for this mission. And in that, I had this experience of coming out of Asmara, Eritrea, and heading down to our team site, which was pretty remote near the border, just south of Eritrea, and in this very small village in a war-torn area, it was completely austere, and you basically, as military observers, you have a team site you run and you kind of manage this area that you observe with daily patrols. And so I got to be in a team site with people from Ghana and South Africa and Bangladesh, and you name it. I mean, we always had new members coming in and out from one of these 41 nations that were there. And when I arrived at the team site the first day, Adahanit was our team cleaner, and so she was hired by the local staff on our team site. And when she literally ran to me, she saw my uniform and the American flag, and she dropped to her knees and just started weeping. And she was telling me how grateful she was that an American was at her team site now, because Americans had treated her and some of her family and friends and people who were living in this village with a little more respect than they were used to, and that was my introduction to this mission, to this team site, and I just thought, “Wow, what did I step into?” Because there are obviously a lot of really interesting dynamics that I didn't necessarily expect that kind of welcome coming in.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:27We take for granted what seems so normal and usual and expected, right? And so to actually see how what we're expecting can really make a difference to somebody else is really powerful. What was some of that experience like there? Can you talk a little bit more about that mission and really why it, besides that incredible greeting, why it really spoke to you?Matthew Ayers 12:52What I came to learn over the next six months living in Shiraru was that, you know, we all of us on the mission we had this MOU, kind of a moral obligation that we signed. We had this oath that we gave and communicated. We had a lot of training, extensive training in country, and then when we arrived overseas, and it was so — I think coming from this side, we had these just very clear expectations, and I think also kind of some of the culture that we swim in is filled with moral obligations. Even just our values at the Academy, where we where we were trained, and but it's such a part of American culture. And so what I realized is that although all the soldiers from every nation get to sign this thing and take this oath, it's not necessarily something that was part of the conversations in families growing up, or a part of the water that they swam in. So our day-to-day life there was filled with this tension between what we agreed to do and what was actually happening on the ground, and those things were completely different. So we saw — I mean, I saw two nations get kicked out and dismissed from the mission for starting trafficking rings. I saw two members of our own team site, they ended up running the black market cash exchange for the entire nation of Ethiopia while I was on site. And some of these things I really struggled with. Tried to work with people to help them understand what we were doing is not helpful to locals, and even to the point of bringing some of these things up legally with some of the team at headquarters. But when they're dealing with international trafficking rings, some of those smaller things that were happening at our team site, they just — they didn't even have capacity to deal with. And so that's also tension was like, OK, we have to learn to deal with this on a one-on-one basis in our team site in the middle of several hours' drive away from anyone who has any authority over the space.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:06Wow! So, how did you learn from that? What did — what changed in you, or what evolved in you? How do you grow as a leader from that? Because that's really powerful when you have a mission, and then you have these competing things happening that sometimes challenge values.
Matthew Ayers 15:25It made life so much more complicated for me. I think I went in —
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:28Like, “If my grandpa was here, he simplified things really well.”    Matthew Ayers 15:33Right. Exactly. Where is this simple answer? There really wasn't. And I remember sitting in several meetings, both formal and informal, with some of the JAGs, some of the legal team there, and just trying to untangle some of these issues and understand what would be worth our time to bring up, even to the highest levels, even if we had to go to Congress. What are some of the things that we need eyeballs here and influence here so that we can change some what's going on ground? It's really negatively impacting people's lives, and some of the things that we had to wrestle with were these larger moral questions of if we do this and we potentially raise these other issues at this particular level, we can end the mission. And we're trying to keep these two nations from destroying each other. So please don't go to this level. Work with us. We're going to work with you. We're going to give you advice, but you need to deal with this one on one with these people that you're working with and serving with, and they may not be from your country and they may not be in your chain of command, but you have at least some level of influence with them. So we need you to be courageous and we need you to have these conversations on a daily basis and help us. So those, that was powerful to me because it wasn't, you know — I at first I felt disempowered and like I don't know what I could do in this position, but over time I think little by little, you know, you can you can move the ball down the field if you stay focused -and you kind of understand the situation you're working within. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:11I'm so glad you shared that because often we might think, “Well, I'm just an acquisitions officer” or “I'm just this and this is not my lane” or “This is not my role.” But I think to your point is we can all be leaders and if we stay focused and we know what we need to be doing, moving the ball down the field is still very much progress. And so thank you for sharing that. I think that was really powerful. You know, you've had so many incredible experiences. I'm curious. So, acquisitions officer, you went and did this UN mission, and somehow you ended back in the hallways of Fairchild Hall teaching cadets. Let's talk about that transition and maybe what leadership looked like after you had some of this real-world and mission experience, operational experience. How did that translate to leading cadets in the way they think, etc.Matthew Ayers 18:03The mission, you know, sharing knowledge, sharing wisdom, sharing the things that we know we're learning in Management 101. I mean, that's important, right?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:13Yeah.Matthew Ayers 18:13But what I realized in that role too is just, and I realized this going back to our time. You know, as ’99ers…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:24Gold will shine.
 
Matthew Ayers 18:25…and just people who had so much influence on us. That's my always dreamed to come back. That was a dream job for me. I wanted to be back here on campus and influencing kids' lives because I think you are for the first time in your life for most of us. Then you're away from home, and you get to like have your family, your brothers, your sisters, your parents, your grandparents. You can lean on in those situations at home to help you carry that leadership. But this is the first time you get to try it out on your own. And I wanted to get to know people relationally first and build trust so that I could earn a right as little as it was to speak into anyone's life, and maybe learn from them too, because we're all coming from different backgrounds where we can learn from each other. So that environment was incredible to me because it's just so much more than sharing knowledge, right? You know you're transforming. You're part of that transformative process of a person being formed when they're standing on their own values for the first time.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:34Matthew, can you share an example of maybe when you saw that come to life with a cadet and an interaction with you? Was there a time in that that when you were facilitating or when you were an instructor that you actually saw some of those seeds be received and how it actually bloomed?Matthew Ayers 19:52My very first night on duty, I was officer on duty at night, and you know you do this. Everyone pitches in and has that role at some point or another when they're on faculty here, and there was a suicide, and I remember getting to interact in the moment as the news is, you know, in a grassroots way, very quickly moving through the Cadet Wing. And in the middle of the night, just walking the hallways and seeing kids, and just getting to put my hand on my shoulder and ask if they need to talk, can I pray? Can I support you? And hearing their stories and what they knew, and so life happens, right? No matter what position you're in, no matter where you are, and you get to show up for people where you don't, or you get scared. And I think some of those things, you know, being in Eritrea in the middle of night with people, and that I think you build a little more resilience there too when you're in some interesting situations. And it helps you step into somebody else's space and just be present and I — those are sacred memories for me and those opportunities just to be present. Didn't do anything really but just be there. And I think I'll cherish that always. And I just encourage us. You know, it again — these things seem like so challenging sometimes when you're in a, when the stakes are high and the emotions are high, but those are the most important times to stand in and be present.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:42I feel this tie from your grandpa to you. This ordinary act. I will tell you, the cadets that you spent time with when you were walking the halls that evening, and you put your hand on their shoulder, or you said, "Do you need to talk?” They will take that with them, and there's a good chance that when the moment calls for that from them, they're ready because they saw it in action and they felt the importance of that. Man, thank you for sharing that incredible story. I have to think that that probably played into your decision to jump into the nonprofit space and lead something incredible like you've been doing for the past 10+ years.Matthew Ayers 22:20If I'm honest, I was a little bit upset leaving the Air Force. I loved that job. I loved what I was doing, but of course, I did have the seed that my grandpa planted, and really, it went back to that first experience that day when he introduced us to the staff at this restaurant. And I thought, I remember making a commitment back then to say, I want to be like my grandpa, and I want to do something. I think with my life, just to interact with vulnerable people and serve them. And so that came true. I got to start some work in the nonprofit world when I got out of the Air Force, and then it led into this opportunity. And I think just casting that vision in that early season of getting out and just sharing this bigger idea of like, OK, we what does the city need? We love Colorado Springs. There's a lot of great nonprofits, and we don't want to duplicate anything. So what do we really need? And that's when I got to go on this journey of just listening to leaders all over our city and discovering what some of those things could be.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:29I love that powerful listening tour. Before we jump into that, I want to just in that piece of time in which you made that transition, I'm curious on how you knew it was time. Because I think many leaders, you know, when they're in different roles, they're looking for the when is the right time for what's next, or and who do you talk to in your corner? What was that transition, and maybe that network around you or your community around you, what did that look like in navigating that decision?Matthew Ayers 1:57So, Naviere, my life is like one example after another of I have plans in my mind, in my heart, and then they get redirected. And there's a proverb about that that says, you know, people make plans in their heart, and the Lord directs their steps. So this was another clear example of that, of me taking a while to learn what really should be the next step. And I remember the voluntary separation program, that VSP came open, that opportunity. And this is strange. So if anyone's been around the Academy or taught there, you know this. If you haven't, it is rare to have people just come by your office and small talk for a while, right? You're with cadets in your open office hours, or you're teaching, or you're preparing for something. So we're running. We're always running around. And 15 people, several of them — I couldn't have even told you their last name. I was just an acquaintance with them — stopped by my office in my open hours during the day, one after the other, asking the exact same thing: “Are you going to apply for this VSP?” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:12Did you make — I mean, I can't even. That's just kind of blows my mind, right? I'm just I'm putting myself in your shoes in that moment. Yes, please continue.Matthew Ayers 25:22Yeah. So if Anthony Pedroni is listening, he was the last one, and Tony comes in at like 7 that night in my office and asks the same exact question. We're friends. We work together in the management department. And he said, "Are you going to apply for this VSP?” I said, "No, man, I love my job. I love what I'm doing. Why would I want to leave here?” And he said, "Oh, Mr. Sensitive,” and he walked away. And when he said that, I was convicted. I had not even stopped to pray for a second. Like, is this the right thing to do? And I just knew it was, and I didn't know why. So, I, as an Enneagram 9, I try to lead with my gut instinct. That always just naturally leads first, and I just knew I needed. So I applied that night. I was one of 20 that got it. I got a call the next day, and I was out in 30 days. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:11Oh my goodness. So really, it was this group around you, and then some self-reflection and prayer, and you made that decision. There was really not a lot of talk at all, it sounds like. Matthew Ayers 26:23There was zero planning. So yeah, but I knew it was right, and I knew if — you know, I just think taking steps of faith, sometimes we need to be redirected. And looking back on my life now, I cannot imagine not doing this nonprofit work early. In my mind, the timing was retire first, be stable, make a good decision, get your retirement, then launch this nonprofit. But that's not that wasn't the best way forward. And so I would just say that for others too, where I had to be redirected, and it was so helpful for me. And that if you know you're holding on to a dream, sometimes it's good to be stable and make that, you know, what might look like a more traditional decision, and sometimes it's not. And to have the courage to be able to at least ask that question.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:15I love that. So you jumped, and you have now led Dream Centers. Let's talk about this a little bit because I think many people may not know what Dream Centers of Colorado Springs is and the mission.Matthew Ayers 27:30There's a movement across the world. There's several hundred Dream Centers, and the basic thing that ties it all together is that we share this vision that we would find a real need in a city wherever we're located that's unduplicated, and we go meet that need. So we're not the same organization as any one other of these hundreds of Dream Centers. But I got to go on that listening tour for about six months and learn as much as I could from people here before we decided what we wanted to land on. That would really be something unique and unduplicated that we could offer the city.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:09Do you feel that this is another way that you continued to put on a uniform outside of the uniform, right? So this is a new way of service. Do you think that that was part of not only it was a need that you decided this is the one we're going to do and it's unduplicated, but it actually spoke to you because of your servant leadership background?Matthew Ayers 28:29Maybe. I think honestly, going back to those roots, my parents, my grandpa. I mean, I think of my wrestling coach in high school and English teacher. They served so well, and they did it with joy. I think just to me, it was a more inspiring way to live, and so I didn't think about it like that, and I don't think about it like that. Although that's absolutely important and valuable, but I think as I as I experience the joy of learning from our clients right now and our staff, and just how rewarding the mission is, yeah, absolutely. It's about serving our community, but it is so joyous. It's — I get so much more out of it that it's like it really is a way of life that that is just incredible. I love getting up in the morning. I love what I get to do.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:19So you are learning from the people you serve. You just — you were just talking about the joy that it brings you. What has changed in you? And I think about it — you know, this is Long Blue Leadership. So from a leadership capacity, because you're leading a team of professionals that's making this joy possible, but curious how it's also really, like, you know, changed you?
Matthew Ayers 29:40Man, I think I've changed every day. There's — you know, I have not had a lot of extreme or challenging situations I've dealt with in life, but I've had like a front row seat to that, and I think that I don't understand what it's like to live in a car, or to live on the street, or to experience domestic violence, or to be without food, and people are in those situations in our city every day, and they have so much to tell us about what's going on with our city, what's working, what's not. How can we improve it? How can we improve it down to the level of interactions, from phone calls and intake and how we're welcomed into a front office, to what actually is going to move the ball and make an impact in their life, and I think those are the things that we know are like adding to the quality of community, and it transfers intergenerationally in our city. So if we don't stop to learn about those things, it we're all going to be affected by that, and we're all going to be life will just not be as rewarding because it is so rewarding to be in the middle of those conversations and experiences.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:17So I'm thinking about it in parallel as leaders. To your point, are you know they have colleagues or teammates that are experiencing things that they haven't. How do you navigate those conversations? How do you actually get to a place where maybe you are driving impact or making it a difference? I'm curious if you could share some of that, maybe some for those who are looking for that leadership as well.Matthew Ayers 31:41We're always trying to do things with excellence. We're always tweaking what we're doing, and we're trying to just be steady and show up every day and learn what we can. And so I think when we have some big changes we need to make or a program we need to implement, first it needs to come from the people we're learning from, right? And it's not dreamed up without partnership there, and I think it needs to be confirmed by them as well. And so I mean, this again-it's the story of my life. But for several years at one of our programs at Mary's Home, the families we get to be with and serve and learn from were telling me about, you know, “The way that you're setting up this high-challenge, high-support program, and what we're able to accomplish here, and how we're surrounded with love and services and challenge. It is so good. Why aren't you doing that with our children? Why are you not offering the same thing for them?” And we — this was a theme, and I got to hear it over and over and over again. And they probably felt like they were being a broken record, but it was so important that they kept — they felt they had that important message to share. And it took me years of hearing that and then validating it with other people in the community, other people who had come through the program, our graduates, who had been years, you know, after launching for Mary's home, validating it, and I think that whole process was something where, for me, it felt like at least scales had to fall from my eyes. I had to really wake up to the reality of what this is because at first I was thinking there's other organizations that do this, and they continued just faithfully week after week, month after month, to have this conversation and say, “No, you — OK, so you don't really understand, Matthew, what we're talking about, so let's back up.” It was conversations like that. Like, “Let me tell you about my experience here with my children.” “Let me tell you about my experience over here at this service and why it's not working.” And so I think those, you know — it's being in touch with your customer. It's being in touch with your client. It's really — we have to be changed first if we're going to really offer something that's truly transformational.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:03I love how you said you can drive change and it really make an intergenerational difference. I'm curious how your work has changed the lives of your family because I know you know you're married and you have two beautiful children. What does this legacy look like in your household?Matthew Ayers 34:22Yeah, well I hope that I can you know at least try to live up to my grandpa's way of being. And so like when we're around work, that our kids it feels like a normal thing to do, just to be in service and to be engaged, to be in touch with what's going on in our community, and that it feels normal to come to work and have that warmth and have that encouragement and see models of people just doing normal things that we may if we don't have those models otherwise they seem maybe difficult for a little distant from us. And sometimes they're actually closer than we realize and we just keep them distant because it reminds us of just how maybe vulnerable we are sometimes, or maybe a memory like going back to our childhood that could be implicit. You know, before we're even four, and we remember it with our mind. Our body is remembering it with our emotions, and we're and so we get scared sometimes, and we don't even know why to engage with some big challenges in our city. And that's what I think. Yeah, the day-to-day stuff I want to model for Zeke and Halle Joy are just — you know, this is this is actually super rewarding, and it's one of the best things in the world you can do.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:40So, Matthew, if we can go back in time, and you could talk to your 11-year-old self, what might you tell him today?Matthew Ayers 35:46I think knowing what I know now and seeing what's possible, what transformation, what kinds of things, and just that we've been able to do with our partners in the city, through Dream Centers, going back to that, all that may seem really daunting and just incredibly tough to imagine or even think about as 11-year-old. But I think I would keep just want to model it for him, you know, just like my grandpa did, and make it make it easy, make it like this is — anyone can do this. Take that next faithful step, that everyone has something that they can do to show just a little bit of genuine curiosity in whoever they're with, that we always have something to learn, and if you can model that with joy, I just think it can be captured so much easier. If you model it in any other way, I don't know that it becomes something that you want to emulate.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:45I love that. And speaking of joy, I have a feeling I know where you might go with this answer, but let's see if you surprise us. You know, what is something you're doing every day to be better, either as a leader, you know, in your in your life? What are you doing every day to be better?Matthew Ayers 37:05I'll say it's something that I try to do every day. So even this week is a great example. Like, the last couple weeks, I've had conversations with staff where they felt courageous enough to give me feedback, and I got to listen, and I get to learn from them, and they're my greatest teachers. “So, this is how I felt in that situation, Matthew, and this is how I didn't feel seen or heard.” And let me just tell you how that impacted me, and those conversations are, you know, although I wish I could say they're far and few between, they're probably more regular. But I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that we have a team that really trusts each other, and where we can just be honest and reflect and call each other to this higher place. And my team does that for me. So if I could do one thing, I don't always do it, but if I could do one thing really well, it'd be to keep learning from them.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:03Oh, that's fantastic. May I ask how you accept that feedback? Because, you know, being open to hearing it is one thing, but accepting it, I think, is another. Can you talk about how you do that?Matthew Ayers 38:18Yeah. Well, I think people are complicated, and all of us, right? We're like this incredible mishmash. You have, like, unlimited layers of variables going on an x-axis and a y-axis, and for some reason, on one day, one person will hit that one button that really affects us more deeply than another. And I see that, you know, with me, I see that with our team. And so, even one staff member will give me feedback that's in this direction, and another and receives it completely differently. So, what I think it does for me is I want to hold all those things as equally valid and say how can I sharpen what I'm doing even more so? Like that thing really landed for somebody and it really hurt somebody else. So how can I adjust? How can I learn from that so that I am presenting, I'm showing up to work my best self in a way that's able to speak to everyone. You can't always do that. You're never going to hit on the head, and that's why we need grace for everyone. We need a little patience. But I think we can always learn too, and we can always sharpen the skills. And I'm so grateful that we can, and that EQ is just one of those things that we can constantly work on. So, yeah.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:36I love that. Well, what is something that we didn't cover today that you feel is really important for our viewers and listeners to hear from you?Matthew Ayers 039:46You keep doing what you're doing because you're bringing a message that is really — it's not complicated at all, but there's so many layers to this leadership journey, and I think people need examples of that. We don't learn — I think what I know that whether it was just in my work here at the Academy, or the work with the nonprofit, or just growing up in Ellensburg, Washington, learn as much in the classroom, and so we have to wrestle with these ideas. That's important, and these ideas we'll hear today are really important. But we need to the community we live in, the family we're a part of, our work, and we need to apply these things. And that's where we really learn. And I don't think leadership can ever be learned just from talking about it, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:43That's right.
 
Matthew Ayers 40:43So we have to be able to apply these ideas constantly and wrestle with them, and talk about them, and keep them front and center. So thank you for doing that. And I know we're going to keep trying to do that within Dream Centers and make it real instead of just theoretical.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:00Well, Matthew, this conversation has been really incredible in many ways. I think some of the things that really stuck with me in this conversation, one, I just really appreciated getting to know your grandpa through you. I mean, he's someone that I also hope that I can emulate in just his finding ordinary ways to make big impact. And I think you're doing that every day in your job, and that's helping to inspire others as well. I really appreciated our conversation how you really have become a student of learning leadership through the through the actions that others have gone through, right? So maybe not living them yourself, but being there in the moment, learning from them. And so I appreciated how you really talk about leadership through learning. And so I think that really came through and folds in our conversation today. And last, I want to end with this because, as I sit here and I smile at you, it's because you bring joy, and I think it's really important that we find joy in the moments, even when they're difficult. If we can continue to like hold onto that thread of joy, life is sure a lot more fun and meaningful, and we bring others along with us in that in that capacity.Matthew Ayers 42:04Thank you, Naviere.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:05For all of you that are watching this and listening, thank you for joining us on Long Blue Leadership. If you know someone who's on their leadership journey, they really should check out this conversation and all of our others at longblueleadership.org. Many of our graduates have different paths that they want on leadership, and just like Matthew, they have so many wonderful lessons you can pose in them. So until next time, I'm Naviere Walkowicz, Class of ’99. We'll see you on Long Blue Leadership.KEYWORDS
Primary:Servant leadership, leadership through learning, influence, humility, curiosity, transformation.
Secondary:Mentorship, moral courage, resilience, trust, active listening, empathy, community, values-based leadership, feedback, purpose.
Supporting:Emotional intelligence, authenticity, growth mindset, stewardship, compassion, vulnerability, presence, integrity, service, relational leadership.
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 

Leadership isn't about changing who you are; it's about becoming the fullest expression of who you were meant to be.
 
SUMMARYWhat does quiet leadership look like? From military deployments to the flight deck at Alaska Airlines, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Kimberly Ford ’90 explains how preparation, trust and listening can be just as powerful as command. 
 
COL. FORD'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
1. Leadership doesn't have to be loud to be effective.Ford's journey demonstrates that quiet, thoughtful leaders can inspire just as deeply as outspoken ones. Authenticity is what earns trust and influence.
2. Feedback can become the catalyst for transformation.Receiving a poor leadership evaluation at the U.S. Air Force Academy was painful, but instead of allowing it to define her, Ford used it as the beginning of her growth as a leader.
3. Finding your voice begins by believing your perspective matters.Confidence wasn't something Ford was born with. It was developed through mentors, experience and the courage to share her passion with others.
4. The best mentors don't remove fear, they help you move through it.From the jump master to her pilot instructors, Ford's mentors equipped her with the mindset and confidence to act despite uncertainty rather than waiting for fear to disappear.
5. Preparation creates confidence under pressure.Chair flying, visualization, repetition and mastering the fundamentals allowed Ford to perform when the stakes were highest. Excellence begins long before execution.
6. Trust is earned through competence and consistency.Whether flying combat missions or commercial aircraft, Ford explains that teams build trust quickly when they know each member is prepared, dependable and committed to doing their job well.
7. Leadership must adapt to the mission.Effective leaders recognize when decisive command is required and when empathy, patience and service are the qualities the moment demands.
8. Listening is one of leadership's greatest strengths.Ford's approach emphasizes seeking feedback, understanding different perspectives and creating an environment where others feel heard before decisions are made.
9. Resilience is built through daily disciplines, not extraordinary moments.Grounding practices, physical fitness, reflection, continual learning and intentional self-care help leaders remain ready for whatever challenges come next.
10. Great leaders remain lifelong students.Ford's advice to her younger self reflects her enduring philosophy: believe in yourself, seek mentors, embrace feedback, learn from mistakes and never stop growing.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:13 – Meet Lt. Col. (Ret.) Kimberly Ford, USAFA Class of 1990
00:00:57 – The "Rate Your Neighbor" Moment that Changed Everything
00:05:33 – Finding Her Voice & Honoring the Tuskegee Airmen and WASPs
00:08:34 – Family, Faith and the Foundation of Leadership
00:11:00 – Jump School: Fear, Courage and Asking for Help
00:15:15 – Developing a Warrior Mindset Through Preparation
00:17:24 – Transitioning from Military Aviation to Alaska Airlines
00:20:06 – Leading Under Pressure in Combat Operations
00:23:38 – Adapting Your Leadership to Fit the Mission
00:27:28 – Daily Habits That Make Better Leaders
00:29:43 – Advice to Her Younger Self & the Power of Mentorship
00:31:26 – Final Reflections: Leading with Quiet Confidence
 
 
ABOUT COL. FORD
BIO
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Kimberly Ford, USAFA Class of 1990, is a distinguished combat aviator, senior mobility leader and lifelong advocate for aviation, leadership, and service. During her 25-year U.S. Air Force career, she served as a KC-135 and C-17 command pilot, instructor pilot and mission commander, logging more than 11,000 flight hours while supporting combat, humanitarian and contingency operations around the world. She also served in strategic leadership roles at Air Mobility Command, helping shape enterprise-level operations and leadership development across the Air Force's global mobility mission.
Following her military service, Col. Ford has continued to lead through aviation and community engagement as a commercial airline pilot, board leader and champion for preserving the legacy of the Tuskegee Airmen and Women Airforce Service Pilots while expanding opportunities in aerospace and STEM education. A recipient of numerous military and civilian honors, including induction into the Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals Hall of Fame, she remains dedicated to mentoring the next generation of leaders through a life defined by service, resilience and authentic leadership.
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Guest, Matthew Ayers ’99  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 
 
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Sometimes leadership isn't about speaking the loudest; it's about finding the courage to speak when your voice matters most. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99; Long Blue Leadership starts now.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:13Today's guest is Air Force Lt. Col. (Ret.) Kimberly Ford, United States Air Force Academy, Class of 1990. She has had a remarkable career through KC-135, C-17 command pilot, instructor pilot, senior air mobility command leader. Today she serves as an Alaska Airlines pilot, aviation advocate, and champion — preserving the legacy of our Tuskegee Airmen and Women Airforce Service Pilots, WASP, while inspiring the next generation of aerospace leaders. I should also add that Kim is our 2025 — one of our 2025 recipients — of the Leadership Achievement Award. Kim, we're so glad to have you here.Lt. Col. (Ret.) Kimberly Ford 0:53Thank you so much. It's just an honor to be here to speak with you today. Thank you.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:57Absolutely. And so, here on Long Blue Leadership, we like to jump right on to a really key moment in your life, and one, if we dial back the time a little bit, goes back to your three-degree year at the Air Force Academy, and they had something at the time, I think you mentioned it was “Rate Your Neighbor,” so something that you all did, and you scored a D. And I'm curious on what that was about, and then can you take us back to that conversation that time.Col. Kimberly Ford 1:23Correct, they had something at the time called Rate Your Neighbor, and that called for your classmates, your peers, people above you and below you, rating your ability to be a leader in the Cadet Wing and in your squadron, and then eventually a leader in the Air Force, and so everyone in your class would get a rating. I had come into the to the meeting thinking that I had done really well, and that my passion was shining through, and so imagine my surprise when I found out that I received the equivalent of a D grade. My air officer commanding was empathetic, but he was also very concerned, and what I did appreciate was he did give me the chance to respond. At that time, I just felt really disappointed. You know, I'd come into the Academy, I really wanted to be in aerospace, I was really excited about STEM. I was so happy to have the opportunity to be there, and so I must admit that I really felt crushed when I heard his words, that I hadn't done as well as I thought I had.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:32It almost sounds a little bit like a 360-degree kind of assessment. What, in particular, I guess attributed to that, kind of that score, that rating from your peers? What did they see, I guess, in that to give you that score?Col. Kimberly Ford 2:49Yes, you know, looking back with my lens now, I know that there are different types of leadership, different styles of leadership, but I think at the time the type of leadership that was expected was someone who was assertive, who was upfront, who was more sort of direct. At the time, I was a young cadet who definitely needed to be mentored and learn some skills. I think what they saw in me was someone who was very quiet. I had not had the opportunity or taken the opportunity to speak about who I was, my background, my passion for aviation, someone who didn't make eye contact, and you know, someone who maybe didn't greet them on a personal level, who didn't check in before a session, during a session and maybe after a session. And so they just really weren't sure about my aptitude, and I can understand that big picture. I was someone who definitely needed to be mentored and definitely needed to learn those skills in a style that was commensurate with my personality and what I had to bring to the table.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:55Well, you talked about being passionate and you went in feeling really good and hoping that it shined through. How did you adjust, maybe, or adapt after that feedback to bring your voice and that passion forward. What did that look like in your leadership journey at that time?Col. Kimberly Ford 4:10Yes, I remember the air officer commanding said, “Hey, you know, let's talk about this. What do you — what are you bringing to the table?” And so I said, “Wow, I'm someone who wants to be here. I'm someone who wants to fly. I am someone who wants to give back to my country, and I want to serve my nation.” And so, after that, I'm lucky that I had a good group of mentors, both peers and older cadets, and I was able to sit down with them and get that constructive feedback and constructive criticism. So I was able to speak with my flight commander about, you know, goals that I have. I want to do, you know, eventually I want to do the soaring program. I want to do — which I may have already finished by that point. I want to do the T-41 program, which was the solo program at the time. I would like to be a pilot. And so I really practiced making eye contact, speaking about my goals, sharing my passion, and just really checking in and making sure I receive that feedback from my leadership, and then also points where I could improve. You know, as an 18-, 19-year-old, you know, young woman who was very shy, that was a lot for me. But it just — so it took a lot of courage, so I'm really proud of myself for being able to get there, to be able to interact and have those conversations that I needed to have with my cadet leadership at the time.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:33Well, let's fast forward now, because I feel like that voice that you found has been really instrumental in some of the advocacy and work that you've done around really highlighting the legacies of our Tuskegee Airmen and the Women Air Service Pilots, or WASPs. Can you talk about, you know, where that came into play, or how finding your voice, what that looked like, and what some of that work, important work, was that you did?
Col. Kimberly Ford 5:59Yeah, yeah, I will go back. When I was a young woman, still in high school, I had really started to show interest in aviation, and we didn't know a lot of people who were pilots or in aerospace, and so what my parents did for me, especially my mother, who loved to read, is she found me a lot of books, and she found me books about the Tuskegee Airmen and about the Women's Air Service Pilots as examples. And so I read about these courageous, you know, young people who were serving during World War II, all of the challenges and barriers that they had to overcome, and the life lessons that they had to share. And so I really took that to heart, and that really helped to inspire me during my career. I had the opportunity to speak with some Tuskegee Airmen during my Air Force career by attending conferences. As I moved back to the Seattle area, when I came back to Joint Base Lewis-McChord, I had the opportunity to serve at the Seattle Museum of Flight and serve in panels. We would talk about subjects such as the Berlin Airlift, some of the flying out of a Ramitelli in Italy, and just sort of passing along those leadership lessons. I had also joined my Sam Bruce Chapter of Tuskegee Airmen. We were able to work on some youth programs and grow them from very small programs to larger programs, which really passed along those important leadership lessons to young people and inspired them on their journeys to becoming pilots. I had another opportunity to volunteer with the Congressional Gold Medal ceremony for the Women's Air Service Pilots. So, I went to Washington, D.C. I was able to pass along the Congressional Gold Medal to June Lecky and spend time with her family and learn about her service, so I always called her my WASP. I'm lucky that I was able to go to the museum, the Women's Air Service Pilot Museum in Sweetwater, Texas, and have the chance to interview WASPs, volunteer alongside of WASPs, and as well pass along my message of my service and sort of help to grow young people. Through my Sam Bruce Chapter, I met mentors such as Bill Holloman, who was an original Tuskegee Airmen, and Ed Drummond, who shared their stories of just leadership and courage. So to me, those lessons are so important to pass on to the next generation.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:34I think you hit it on the, you know, hit the nail on the head when you talk about sharing the stories, and as we share your story today, I think it's really important that our viewers and our listeners kind of really appreciate that not all leaders, you know, approach things in the same way. To your point, you know, you start off really shy, and you found your voice, and then you're able to even share stories of other leaders. I'm curious, in your journey, of, you know, how that continued to evolve, you know, where did you find yourself really championed, perhaps? You mentioned your parents early on, and you know, understanding your love for aviation, did they also kind of show up for you in that way of helping you to hone in on your leadership skills a little earlier?Col. Kimberly Ford 9:20Yes, yes. As a young person, I knew early on that I wanted to go to college, that I wanted to achieve a graduate degree, and seeing those examples of my father serve overseas, and my mother alongside with him…
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:37Both your parents served?Col. Kimberly Ford 9:38Actually, my father was in the Army, he got up to the rank of captain, and my mother, they had just gotten married, and my mother joined him in France, where they served outside of Paris at a place called Saran, France. So I just saw that example. They started taking me to museums, as I mentioned, they had me read books, but they did see that I was more shy and more quiet, and so they started really relating to me, they just passed along that I, that I'm a leader, you know, I am a leader in my own way. These were often quiet messages, they weren't often direct, but I just remember when I showed up at the Academy, they just, I remember that that message, that I am a leader, that I am capable, that I can do these jobs, that I had just as much of an opportunity to succeed, they were really just strongly, strongly instilled in me.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:37I love those affirmations, and I'm curious, you know, obviously you went on to go to pilot training. How did that continue to evolve, and being a quiet leader, show up in, you know, in the cockpit or amongst your peers? Were there times where you had to be more assertive, or use a different voice? How did you kind of deal with how you're wired, so to speak, with what was needed for the moment?Col. Kimberly Ford 11:00Yeah, so one story that I'll take you back to goes back to jump school. One of my friends wanted me to take jump school, I was really uncertain about this, and she's like, "No, we let's take jump school together.” We were both seniors, and it was just a great opportunity. We went through the training. I had always thought of the people that did jump school as just these amazing people. I wasn't sure if I could just reach that pinnacle. I'm so lucky that we made it. We both made it to the through the training, and then you get to the point where you, you're standing in the door, so this is the point where you take all of your training and you are going to execute this training, and you're going to face this really critical, intense moment. And so to me it was sort of like a parallel of I was finding my voice, I'm a cadet, and then I have the chance to go to pilot training. I remember before we stood in the door on the ground, I'd spoken to the jump master, which was really intimidating for me as a young cadet, and I said, "I want to jump out the door. Can you help me get there? Can you sort of show me how you get yourself ready to do that?” And so, looking back now, when I got into the door, he basically looked me in the eye, and he helped me to take a deep breath, to settle myself, and to take that big step forward. And I jumped out the door, and I went on to do five jumps, and I completed that program.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:21I have to give you props, because I think the fact that you recognized in yourself, giving yourself the permission to ask for help, right? You said, "Can you help me get to and through the door and accomplish this jump?” And then go on to get your jump wings. I think it's really powerful and a leadership lesson in itself. Was that something that you just you — it happened, or you've seen it modeled before you, or you just, it was just something in you that, “I'm going to ask for help here?”Col. Kimberly Ford 12:52He certainly helped me to get that warrior mindset. So, I believe even back before, you know, maybe wanting to do a certain program at in high school, or even wanting to apply for the Academy, my father said, “You know, you just have to step forward and do it.” Also, dating back to my father's father, who was one of the first Black policemen in Baltimore City. He was a very, he was also a very reserved man, very much like myself. And I remember speaking to him about being nervous about applying to the Academy and going to the Academy, and he said, “You know what, Kim? You've just got to get started, you've just got to take that first step.” So, basically, putting yourself in that space, that mental space, being prepared, being confident, and believing in yourself, and taking that step forward. I was able to carry that through, going to pilot training. I was really nervous. A lot of cadets had the opportunity to do a lot of flying, a lot of discovery flights or programs like Civil Air Patrol or scouting, and my parents were only able, they were able to provide me with one amazing discovery flight, but it was tough. I had to learn a lot of information in a short period of time. I had an amazing UPT instructor for my first flight. His name is Colonel, retired now, Kevin Mastin, and he actually went on to become a Thunderbird. He went to the University of Washington, where I'm from, so a neat link there. And I just told him about my fears. “I'm nervous. I don't know if I have what it takes. I don't know if I can keep up with the other students.” And he was — he said, "Do you really want to do this and finish this program?” And I said, “I really do,” and he said, “Well, let's work together, basically to develop this warrior mindset, or this mindset of focus, of intensity, of bringing your best, of being excellent like the Tuskegee Airmen.” So he really worked with me and helped me to do that. So I was basically able to bring that to serving throughout my career up to serving in Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom. You know, just really taking that deep breath, knowing that I am capable, knowing that I am a good leader, and sort of executing the mission, working with the crew, or working with the team that I'm working with at the time. So I'm really proud that that started, as you know, as a child with my parents was honed also at the Air Force Academy and with other mentors through my career.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:15Were there particular pillars of leadership or things that he said this is how, you know, your process to thinking like a warrior having that warrior mindset. What did that look like?Col. Kimberly Ford 15:25Yes, yes, he always he focused on telling me to sort of don't listen to the noise and the other inputs. You know, fly the airplane and focus on the important tenets, the important things that you need to do. You know, “You need to fly the airplane into the air, you need to make it act in ways that you want it to act.” He spoke with me about, you know, learning all of the information, such as, you know, chair flying or visualizing. He said, "I want you to know that information cold. So, if you know the information cold and you're nervous, you're it'll allow you to fly the airplane and focus. So, we would actually have study sessions where we would go to the squadron, and we would basically go through our steps and procedures, and just really practice focusing and just eliminating all of that noise, flying the aircraft, and putting the airplane, you know, in acrobatics and VFR flight and IFR flight.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:20And for someone who's not in aviation, what does VFR flight and IFR flight mean?Col. Kimberly Ford 16:23Visual flight rules, where you can see, and instrument flight rules, where there are clouds, and you're not to see the ground.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:31Well, I can imagine that's really helpful, going through the repetition of actually being in the cockpit, you know, not in the cockpit, right? Like you said, chair flying. I think that's really powerful, visualizing. Were there any other kind of key instructions or thoughts in that process of putting on the warrior mindset and being able to push through any of the self-doubt or kind of the reservations that not just you but I think other leaders share?Col. Kimberly Ford 16:57I think it's also, you know, being the consummate professional, you know, always learning about your craft, so I'm always learning something new, I'm always reading, always listening to what others might say, always listening to feedback. And always showing up, you know, being early, looking professional, having your uniform look well — just sort of those are some of the other tenants that he taught me, also.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:24And I think about what you're doing now. So you're a current pilot with Alaska Airlines. Oftentimes, you know, many of our graduates do go into, especially those who served as pilots, go into, I think, you know, commercial aviation. You know, was that an easy process for you? How did that challenge you as a leader? Was that something that was already kind of written in your game plan of life?Col. Kimberly Ford 17:47Right, so I actually became a commercial pilot in 2001, so it was right around the time of 9/11. It was a little bit challenging, just because I had just finished my active duty, where I was flying the KC-135. I did the Kosovo operations, and also Northern and Southern Watch, where you're basically flying around Saudi Arabia. I finished that and I was just starting my time as an Air Force reservist as a C-17 pilot. So I did initial training for the MD-80 at the time, which was an older passenger airline for Alaska Airlines, and I was also starting training for the C-17. There is quite a difference in culture — you're learning with, you know, working with a different crew, slightly different style of crew resource management. Your purpose is, you know, a little bit different. You're flying passengers and some cargo to get to where they need to go. So I'm really lucky that I was able to rely on mentors to step me through, do that visualizing and share flying. Soon after that, I was actually called up to serve full time for the Air Force for about three to five years for Operations Enduring and Iraqi Freedom, that's operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. So I always had to, you know, I took copious notes. We had a lot of conversations on those flight decks as we were doing our military operations. There were a lot of Alaska Airlines and other airline pilots, and so I'm so lucky that I could fly with some really experienced crew members who could really talk to me about this civilian procedures. It is fast paced — you're working at large civilian airports, so I had to learn those standardized procedures, and I had to learn to work with the crews to be able to execute that civilian mission well.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:41I'm curious about, you know, your service while you were deployed in support of those different operations. If you could talk about where you saw yourself evolve as a leader. How did you continue to grow in that space from, you know, where you started as a quiet, more reserved leader, still quite passionate, but where did that show up, and how did it show up in the deployed spaces?Col. Kimberly Ford 20:06Right, let's see, in the deployed spaces, just to give people an idea of the operations at the time, they were a very fast-paced. This is like around 2001, 2002 and on. We had to fly a large part of the mission because a lot of the experience was in the Air Force Reserve. I was serving at a joint-based Lewis-McChord, and so we would take large contingents of especially Army personnel from Joint Base Lewis-McChord, usually to the East Coast, maybe to Europe, such as Germany, and then overseas. It might have been the opportunity for me to sort of have a briefing, and then in general the mission would match the briefing, usually, usually in the KC-135. I would say in the C-17 it was very intense, where you were on alert, and then the mission could change and evolve. It might be incredibly intense where it was at night, — you might be landing with night vision goggles on a runway that wasn't lit, and so they were very intricate details. So changing mission, very intense missions. In the last part was very long missions. So I believe that I had to really dig deep and always be willing to have that resilience and more resilience and more endurance than I'd ever, ever had before. Also, working with a larger crew for a longer period of time. Just really — I knew that the people around me knew their jobs well, they were motivated, they wanted to serve, and they could execute well, and they were passionate about the mission, so I think just having that stamina and endurance, and flying in more challenging conditions. Definitely.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:57When you're stepping into some of those roles, there's this need to build a team very quickly, and trust, and you know, obviously leadership is part of pulling all that together. How did you do that successfully? I mean, aside from, you know, having stamina and really just, I think, being ready, were there any other things that you thought you really tapped into from your strengths that helped you to navigate that cohesion and that trust together pretty quickly?Col. Kimberly Ford 22:24Right, it seems like one of the easiest ways to build trust and have that team as — there are really standardized roles that are expected in the crew, and when the crew knows that you know your role inside and out, and that you can execute well, that you will, you know, speak the way you need to speak, that you'll fly the way you need to fly, that really quickly helps to build trust. I think, also, it helps to be able to speak through the mission to be able to talk about some of those key crunch points, and you know, options that we would have as a crew, and basically work together to make decisions, and also if that one person had information that the rest of the crew didn't have, such as the need to go around or to stop or to turn the other way, that the entire crew, especially the other pilot, would listen to that information and execute immediately. So, building that trust by performing your role, being prepared, going over the mission, going over those crunch points and acting quickly when you needed to act, that really seemed to form a cohesive crew.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:38You know, if we can go back a little bit, I'm curious to your time, you know — I guess it's not really going back, it's a bit more current now — but you'd mentioned a little bit ago that working with Alaska Airlines, the pace is a little different, and the mission has changed. I'm curious on how your leadership has evolved when you think about a changing mission, and maybe it's not life or death or national security, but how do you continue to evolve as a leader when the stakes aren't as high?Col. Kimberly Ford 24:06Right, right, so in the military mission, it was more — it was usually time critical, and it called for often a very assertive type of quiet leadership. So you're still bringing that assertive type of quiet leadership, but you're also bringing customer service to families and passengers who are getting to where they need to go, whether it be a vacation or to visit family, or, you know, taking a businessperson where they want me to go, so you're having that patience, letting people know that they're welcome, that you're happy to see them on board, you're working with crew members who may not have that sort of military background. And so there are different communication styles, different, you know, they're different people, and so you're really sort of reading who they are and making sure that you can communicate information in a way that is effective for them as a person, and their age and experience level. You are — it is also a compressed timeframe, so ensuring that you're getting loaded and boarded within that timeframe, and sort of helping the airline to get those, you know, different pushes of different aircraft at different times off on time. So I think I had to just sort of maybe dial it back a little bit in my presentation; make sure I just gave that great customer service. I would say in the cockpit it is that same — in the flight deck, I'm sorry — you're giving that same crew resource management. That same — building that same trust within the person who, you know, letting them know that you know your job and that you're ready to execute. So I would say it's probably more the same within the flight deck there.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:53I would almost go so far as to say is the ability to understand when you need to assert more, and when maybe a more quiet and customer service-oriented leadership style needs to be used — you almost have a superpower of understanding when to employ them, and I might, I might ask you this: You know, how do you help others who maybe have the other side of the leadership spectrum, where they come in very — “I'm a very assertive type leader.” How do you help them see the value in your approach that is natural to you?Col. Kimberly Ford 26:25We have a moment at the end of our flights at Alaska Airlines, where we sort of, we sit back and we basically say, “How do we think that went?” You know, “What could we change?” And we speak about, you know, “How did the crew receive our message? How did the passengers receive our message? How did the gate personnel receive our message?” And sometimes you could say, like, “OK, well, maybe we could have said this this way. Maybe we could have responded this way as we were flying the approach.” And so I'm able to sort of give my perspective, and maybe how I might have done things, or perhaps sometimes the will divide duties, and the captain will say, "OK, I see here, maybe you would be great at doing this duty, could you take this over?” And so I think that's how I can show that maybe a different style of leadership would be more effective in those certain situations, and we're trained to really listen and just take in the feedback that's coming towards us, and I would say all of the crew members are very good at listening, adjusting and taking in what's offered to them.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:28By you kind of sharing the ability to listen, but also share your perspectives, I think, in itself, is another great leadership lesson that strong leaders have the ability to listen to others and take in other inputs before making decisions or moving forward. So I think that was a wonderful recollection of how you do that in the civilian world in aviation. So one of the things we love to do is ask our guests: What they're doing every day to be a better leader? Would you mind sharing with us what that is?Col. Kimberly Ford 27:59Let's see, I do a number of things. One is I try to take a quiet moment just to do some breathing and just really to center myself and ground myself, so a quiet moment. I'm trying to get enough sleep. It's amazing how much, you know, good sleep can affect your ability to execute your day properly. I'm trying to get some exercise every day, so whether it be — I'm trying to do a lot of weightlifting, Pilates, yoga, doing things to strengthen myself as well as ground myself. And I'm also making sure I'm taking a break to do something fun, you know, something that I enjoy with my spouse or a friend, going out to lunch or something like that. So, you know, trying to take care of myself and make sure I take some time for fun and just set time for grounding and for breathing a few minutes each day. I find those things very helpful.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:57Is that something that you sort of employed as, you know, you've become more understanding of time and experience, or have you always kind of operated in that way — just to kind of appreciate the moments, you know, take time to fill your cup, etc.?Col. Kimberly Ford 29:12You know, I would say that that is something that my parents instilled in me a long time ago. My mother instilled in me, especially just that: that breathing and just taking that moment and just grounding yourself. I remember we went to some sort of exercise classes together when I was in junior high and high school, so I'm really proud that she instilled that in me early. My father also exercised with me as I was getting ready for my Academy initial fitness test to get in.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:43Well, frankly, I mean they really did help prepare you so well for being a cadet and then going on to be highly successful, both as an officer and then in the civilian world. But speaking of when you're a cadet, if you could go back in time now, Kim, and tell, you know Cadet Kimberly Ford, you know, something that she should be thinking about to be a better leader down the road, what would you tell her?Col. Kimberly Ford 30:06I would say always believe in yourself. Know that you can do this, that you are capable, and you have an important perspective to bring to the table. Your voice is necessary, and you have something to bring. So, I would just say it's coming. Keep believing yourself, and I would also say to her, you know, keep finding different mentors, you know. Some mentors are sort of focused on the operation that you're doing on a narrow scale, and some are more big picture mentors, so rely on those mentors and peers, and continue taking that feedback, and always growing, remain a student, always improving, making corrections, and it's OK to have those missteps. And it's an amazing journey as you keep learning and growing and becoming a better leader. That I would tell Cadet Kim.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:59That is outstanding. And may I ask you, what are you most proud of about yourself as a leader?Col. Kimberly Ford 31:06I am proud of resilience, but I learned how to be resilient leader, you know, that I learned from my parents, relatives and, most importantly, through those programs and leadership at the Academy instilled in me that I'm a resilient leader, that I have a lot to offer.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:26Awesome, this has been amazing. I mean, we always enjoy being able to take a peek behind the story of our Air Force Academy graduates and our leadership journeys, but I really appreciate the time, and you really pulling back the layers, taking it back to your family, taking it back to some of the, you know, just right away the lessons you learned from peer feedback and how to adapt and evolve and be resilient, and then when the moment calls for it, bring your voice back to those important moments when you need to help others see a different perspective. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on Long Blue Leadership today.Col. Kimberly Ford 31:59Thank you so much. And I just have to say, Mighty ’90 for the class, as well as War Eagles for the CS-15 War Eagles. But thank you so much. It's been just an honor to be here with you, and I have really very much enjoyed this.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:13Thank you. And for all of you watching this or listening, be sure to share this journey with others who are also in their leadership journeys, whether in aviation or not. Right? Just looking for what are those ways that our leaders are taking shape. We do this on this particular Long Blue Leadership episode, and all of our others at longblueleadership.org. What really stuck with me about this particular conversation is to really be a leader for what the moment calls for, and I think that Lt. Col. (Ret.) Kim Ford, Class of ’90, Mighty ’90, as she said, did it really well. So until next time, I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99 and we'll see you on Long Blue Leadership,
KEYWORDSQuiet leadership, authentic leadership, finding your voice, leadership development, leadership philosophy, resilient leadership, leadership resilience, mentorship, servant leadership, emotional intelligence, courageous leadership, confidence, self-belief, constructive feedback, growth mindset, warrior mindset, leadership under pressure, trust, team building, crew resource management, aviation leadership, military leadership, Air Force Academy, USAFA, combat leadership, decision-making, adaptability, resilience, visualization, chair flying, lifelong learning, personal growth, women in leadership, women in aviation, Tuskegee Airmen, Women Airforce Service Pilots, WASP, professional excellence, leadership communication, leadership lessons.
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 
 

What builds trust when you don't have a title or position of authority?
SUMMARY
According to Lt. Col. Joe Bledsoe ’11, it's honesty, integrity, humility presence and action. Tune in as he shares practical leadership lessons learned from the Academy, combat aviation and years of mentoring others.
 
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COL. BLEDSOE'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
1. Leadership starts before the title. People follow your example, ideas, and presence long before you get formal authority.
2. Informal leadership is as real as formal leadership. Class president, wingman, or peer—your influence, credibility, and support role matter even without rank.
3. Be “clay to be molded.” Show eagerness, humility, and effort; people notice fresh attitude and willingness to embrace hard things.
4. You can’t lead alone—build a trusted team. Time management and heavy responsibility force you to delegate to people you trust and empower them.
5. Trust has two layers: inherent and earned. Start with inherent trust (shared values, shared background) and deliberately grow earned trust through behavior.
6. Five traits that build credibility fast: Honesty, integrity, humility, presence (actually being there, engaged), and decisive action.
7. Debrief like a fighter pilot: brutally honest, never personal. Separate the person from the performance, do root‑cause analysis, fix errors, and then move on—no re‑litigating.
8. Own your mistakes out loud. Saying “I’m sorry,” “I was wrong,” or “I don’t know, but I’ll find out” accelerates trust and models humility.
9. Mentors and mentees are non‑negotiable. Continuously seek guidance from those ahead of you and invest in those behind you to sharpen your own thinking.
10. Prioritize relationships and pride in the mission. Treat family and friends well, cultivate the Long Blue Line, and remember you’re on the A‑team—act like it.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 — Opening & Guest Intro Show open, Naviere introduces Lt Col Joe “Paveway” Bledsoe and his career highlights.
00:01:13 — Voluntold to Lead: Becoming Class President Basic cadet training, being “voluntold,” interview gauntlet, and getting elected class president.
00:04:09 — What a Class President Actually Does Informal vs formal leadership, picking the class exemplar (Robin Olds), dining‑ins, spirit missions, and accountability.
00:08:38 — From Future Doctor to Fighter Pilot Arriving at USAFA wanting to be a physician, loving biology and medicine, and the first seeds of doubt.
00:10:03 — Ops Air Force, Powered Flight, and the Pivot Deployed Ops Air Force in CENTCOM, exposure to flying in theater, powered flight, and choosing pilot training over med school.
00:12:22 — Mentors, Family, and Making a Hard Call Mentorship from family, upperclassmen, and permanent party; emotional weight of changing paths and family’s reaction.
00:14:08 — Leading Without Rank: Credibility and Trust Informal leadership as a young wingman, lessons from time management and delegation as class president, inherent vs earned trust, and key traits (honesty, integrity, humility, presence, action).
00:22:06 — Fighter Pilot Debriefs & Radical Feedback Culture Brutally honest debriefs, owning mistakes, root‑cause analysis, safety and mission focus, and how that mindset translates beyond the cockpit.
00:27:48 — Leadership at Home: Marriage, Parenting, and ‘Knock It Off’ High‑school‑sweetheart marriage, parenting, using accountability and humility with kids, and balancing “fighter pilot” mode with being a husband and dad.
00:30:30 — Future Conflict, Growth, and Pride in the Long Blue Line Risk and future fight, Institute for Future Conflict, exposure to other AFSCs and logistics, daily growth habits (mentors, mentees, reading, writing, running), advice to younger self, and closing message on being proud of USAFA and the A‑team.
 
ABOUT COL. BLEDSOE
BIO
Lt. Col. Joseph “Paveway” Bledsoe ’11 is a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate and recognized leader whose career has spanned combat operations, advanced airpower development and service to the Long Blue Line. A native of rural Pennsylvania, Bledsoe graduated from the Academy in 2011 with a degree in biology before earning a Master of Public Policy from the University of Maryland. 
He is Currently assigned to the Institute for Future Conflict at the U.S. Air Force Academy where he studies the future of airpower, emerging technologies and the challenges of great-power competition. Prior to joining the Institute, he helped lead training and operational planning efforts at the 366th Fighter Wing, contributing to major exercises and the wing’s first deployment to the Indo-Pacific region. His work bridges the gap between today’s operational realities and tomorrow’s strategic challenges.
A recipient of the Association & Foundation’s Young Alumni Excellence Award, Bledsoe is widely respected for his emphasis on faith, family and service. Throughout his career, he has remained deeply connected to the Academy community through mentorship, alumni leadership and a commitment to developing the next generation of leaders. On this episode of Long Blue Leadership, he shares lessons learned from leading peers, building influence before authority and navigating high-stakes decisions in both the cockpit and the profession of arms.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Guest, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Joe "Paveway" Bledsoe" ’11  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 
 
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz 0:01Sometimes leadership begins long before you've ever been put in charge. It starts when people trust you enough to follow your example, your ideas or your vision. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99; Long Blue Leadership starts now. Well, Lt. Col. Joe “Paveway” Bledsoe the Third. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership.Lt. Col. Joe Bledsoe 0:20Naviere, it's great to see you. Thank you for having me here today. I'm looking forward to the conversation.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:24So, Joe, your career has been exciting so far, and you're still in it. You know, you have been operational leader, obviously an F-15E Strike Eagle pilot. You've been deployed, you have been a researcher, you're a Young Alumni Excellence Award winner for our Association & Foundation, you've been an AOG board director and a fellow for the Institute for Future Conflict. And that, that's just, you know, a short little list, because you’re a student heading back into, over to, is it North Carolina, right? Seymour Johnson.
 
Col. Joe Bledsoe 0:53
That’s correct. Seymour Johnson, yep.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:54
In the cockpit, yeah.Col. Joe Bledsoe 0:56Yeah, we're super excited.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:59Yes. Well, we're going to touch on probably many of those places, but I want to dial it back to something that only one graduate in every class experiences, and for you it happened shortly after Basic Cadet Training. Your class selected you as your class president. How did that come about? Col. Joe Bledsoe 1:14How did that all go down? That's a great question. So there we were, right after basic training. I was in Cadet Squadron 19 for my freshman year, and I got the opportunity — this is one of those voluntold moments, right — where the upperclassmen and BCT cadre said, “Joe,” or “Cadet Bledsoe, report to H-1 during transition week.” That’s when everybody's coming back, and you're like, “Sure, yep, yes, sir, yes, ma'am. Here we go.” So I show up with 40, 50 other fourth-class cadets, and we come to find out it was for us, and we were going to go through who was going to be the class officers. So first off, as I look back on that experience, a lot of respect and no humility being asked to go like represent Squadron 19, right? Like, I didn't volunteer, they just kind of pointed me in that direction, so we show up and got to interview with the upperclassmen, class officers, and there's funny interview questions, real serious interview questions. You know, I was just honest, right? Like, I'm here. This is what I think about what being a leader looks like, and how I could help serve the class, not thinking I would ever be selected, right? And as the night is going on, and ACQ is right around the corner, they kind of whittle it down to four or five of us, and we get up in front of the rest of the cadets and classmates that were there, and it was an open forum, like you know, back in Rome times, like you're standing in the gauntlet, Yeah, like it was like Roman voting, right? And asked a bunch of questions, and I remember standing up there with, you know, preppies, prior enlisted, and then me, just like straight off the street, and there's a couple other of us up there, and just answer the questions honestly, and at the end of that, there was a vote, and you know, they read the results, and I was like, "Holy smokes, I'm class president. How did this, how did this happen,” right? And I think there's a lot that — it was daunting at first, right? And then also, like, “This is awesome, I don't know what I'm getting into,” right? I just found out about it. I remember walking back on the Tizo. This was the first time I can say this now, because you know, grad, and I didn't run the strips because the upperclassmen and class officers walked me back, and I distinctly remember to — back to my squadron to — Jordan Kraft and Forrest Underwood walked back and were given some mentorship to me, like here's how to succeed, here's things we would recommend, and it was just an awesome opportunity to like kind of learn what pure leadership looks like, what it means to be in this not org chart that is unique to the Academy, and that's where the, that's where the adventure started for class president. I'm still, I haven't been fired yet, and I still proudly serve the Class of 2011 — Robin Olds’ class — as their class president, and it's one of the best jobs that I have the privilege of doing.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:10My goodness. I mean, just to unpack that a little bit, obviously, in basic cadet training, you did enough to impress your cadre, I'm sure that there was probably some sort of cadre selection to bring however many of them forth first. Would you say that you would you agree with that, or is that — am I way off? Col. Joe Bledsoe 4:28Yeah, I would say —I think when I look back my time at basic training, like I wanted to come to the Academy since I was in your school, right? So, like, I thrived — I'm not saying it was easy by any means, right? We all know that, but I thrived in like this new adventure, right? And I took everything, I embraced everything. I think that may have been something they saw, right? Like I was clay to be molded, right? And I had some prior opportunities in basic to show that to my BCT cadre, and they picked up on it. It wasn't that I was trying, but I think looking back on that experience, there was moments of like my freshness, my eagerness, my like pride in that I made it to basic training, that I wanted to just try as hard as I could, and I think some of that probably shown through, and ultimately may have been why I was selected to go try that interview process, right?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:20So that interview process, at the end of the day, you were elected by your peers, and you know it — to your point — you said in that unusual, the not normal org chart, right, the one that doesn't exist, but yet you have leadership of your class. What did that look like? How did that translate? Because not many of us are class president, I'm certainly not my class president, and so I'm not sure what that leadership role looks like. Can you share a little bit more about some examples?
Col. Joe Bledsoe 5:46Yeah, I think that that leadership role was very different each year, right? As a freshman and a sophomore, as a four-degree and a three-degree, before any official academy leadership position starts to present themselves, that they do for two-degrees and firsties, it was a lot of helping the class stay as a collective whole, right? So one of the first big things as freshmen was selecting our class exemplar, right? And running like — how do, who do we select? How do we come together and figure that process out? How do we then, once we have a name, once we selected Robin Olds, how do we have a formal dining in? Things that I had never even heard of, right? As well as on the other side, the shenanigans, right? So, the spirit missions, right? There was many times I've had to go to the commandant's office and say, I don't know where the class crest is, like, out of pure honesty, right? But, like, that is, that was like a way, as an underclassman, that we kind of got that informal leadership, but also you're the leader by default here, so we're gonna, we're gonna make you accountable for your class. So I got to see both sides, that transitioning a little bit more to two-degree and first a year was now taking a little bit step back in writing in the informal leadership position, so I looked as myself as like a supporting agent, supporting member to our cadet leadership, and I always presented that like, “Hey, if you need our class to do something, I will do that, but if militarily you own that, like, I'm not ever going to step on your toes or push back,” right? The other thing we got, I was able to do is also help provide, like, morale inputs, right? Like you kind of had the pulse of morale, I think, more as the class president sometimes than in the official leadership, so could help provide some inputs along those ways, and there are some, say more shenanigans or morale events that we get to help put forth and present those to the cadet leadership for official approval later on as we firsties.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:04Gosh, well, that was, I mean, it's really insightful for us to understand some of the roles that a class president and class cabinet plays, and so understanding that it's — I like how you put it as a supporting agent to the formal leadership. And we're gonna touch on this a lot more, because I think there's going to be times when you'll share how you build that trust and credibility throughout, both when you're a cadet and as an officer. But before we jump there, I happen to find out, Joe, that you weren't coming to the Air Force Academy to become a fighter pilot, but to become a physician. Can we talk about that for a moment?Col. Joe Bledsoe 8:37Absolutely, that's absolutely a — I came to the Air Force Academy, wanted to be a doctor. I knew I wanted to be a biology major. I declared, I think, the first day I could declare and went through the gauntlet of getting ready for med school applications, and I loved every second of it. It was awesome. Even my fellow classmates would say he was a huge nerd and studying all the time, because that was my goal, right? I came into the Academy, and I wanted to be a doctor, and I knew the gauntlet that is, that that is required to do such a thing. And I still love medicine, right? I still love — I think medicine is fascinating. Every time my probably get there someday, or in the conversation, but anytime my kids have to go to the ER, like I'm like, “Can I scrub in,” right? All that kind of stuff. Yeah, put me in. I love medicine, and it wasn't till the summer between my two-degree and firstie year did I have that midlife crisis at the age of 21 and then firstie year is when that crisis kind of came to a head, and new doors opened, and here we are today, right? So that, yes, you're absolutely right. Always wanted to be a doctor. I was still fascinated by medicine, but now I'm just a pilot. So, there we go.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:57So, can we, can you expand a bit more on it? So, was it a decision you wanted to make or a decision you had to make? Col. Joe Bledsoe 10:03Yeah, yeah, that's great. It was a decision I had to make, ultimately, myself. Right? No one, no one said, “Joe, you can't be a doctor.” So, the summer — there's two key things that really happened that helped influence that decision. The first one was the summer between two-degree in firstie year, I had the opportunity to deploy to the Middle East, and we've heard of Ops Air Force. You know Ops Air Force. Well, at that time we had a deployed Ops Air Force, so they sent cadets overseas to deployed locations to see what was, you know, to get the full experience in a deployed location.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:40Wow.Col. Joe Bledsoe 10:40So I had the opportunity to do that. Spent the summer in CENTCOM and kind of opened my eyes to…
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:47Oh, Central Command.
Col. Joe Bledsoe 10:47
Yeah, sorry, Central Command, and got to experience — I got attached to a C-130 unit, right, and I got to see what flying looked like in a deployed environment, and I kind of opened my eyes, where I've been hyper focused on medicine, right? Like, you know, so focused on this is what it takes to be a doctor. I kind of like put my blinders on to what the rest of the Air Force did, right? So I was like, “This is pretty, this is, these guys and gals are doing awesome stuff, like this is this is the pointy end of what was going on.” And that planted a seed, that planted a seed. So it came back, firstie year was doing the med school applications, going through, I had some free time in my academic calendar, and I got to go down to the airfield and do the powered flight program. So, I got to see flying over the summer, and then I was blessed enough to have the opportunity to go fly an airplane, and I was like, “OK, the seed was planted, let's see if I get air sick, like, let's see if there's anything else here that might make me not want to do this.” And I loved it. Right, I fell in love with flying down at the airfield. I came back, and I was like, I'm gonna pause the med school applications and put my name in the hat for pilot training, and the rest was history, right? So, doors open, doors close, right? But that was my story, and I loved getting to talk to cadets about that, because so many can be — so many times we see some that are hyper focused, and like there's always other options out there, and it's OK to have a crisis we can talk you through.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:23I think that's a fantastic lesson that you actually learned early, because you know it's interesting — had you not been sent to Ops Air Force at a deployed location, you might not have taken Alex flight, and so you know when you think about leadership opportunities and lessons, this is one of those moments where it actually steered you in a new direction. So, as we think about that, I'm curious, how your family responded to that, because, you know, you had come to the Air Force Academy to be a doctor. Were they happy for you? Were they surprised, a little nervous?Col. Joe Bledsoe 12:57Yeah, there was a ton of mentorship there, right? Not just from my family, but from upperclassmen peers, permanent party, like, “What are you doing? Like, you came here telling us this was your goal. Where did this new goal come from?” So, there was a lot of time talking that through, and I needed that myself. It wasn't, as you know, in any decision, like, it wasn't a snap decision. So, a lot of time walking through that decision process and leaning on mentors and kind of asking the questions, like I knew what four years of med school, and then residency, but I knew what that like, what does pilot training look like? How long does that take, right? So, a lot of questions to help answer, or to find answers through, and ultimately, my family was super supportive, super supportive, and they still joke, like, “Hey, how come you're not doctor.” Well, because I fly F-15s now, right? But all supportive all throughout the process, right? And that's where you lean on others, right? Lean on others, because it very much felt like a crisis, like I still have scar tissue over it. But looking back on it, it wasn't just me making — I ultimately made the decision, but they helped me through it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:08That's fantastic. You know, I think about you as an officer, as a fighter pilot, and obviously there's a lot of steps you took to get there on the road was certainly not easy. Often, though, I think that there can be some misconceptions, or maybe this is accurate, that earlier in your pilot life or your aviator life, there's probably not a lot of leadership lessons where you're leading others. Maybe, maybe that's a misperception, and we'd love to talk about that. You know, how do you find the leadership opportunities then when you are, you know, you're party of one, right? You don't necessarily have any direct reports. What does leadership look like there?
Col. Joe Bledsoe 14:43Yeah, can we take that back to like some lessons I learned at the Academy?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:46
Oh, absolutely.
 
Col. Joe Bledsoe 14:47
Right, I think, I think that's where I've leaned most heavily in, like, not in there's this difference between formal leadership and informal, positional versus informal, and I was blessed enough at a pretty young age to learn the plus — the how to succeed and how to fail in informal leadership. I've tried to carry that throughout my career. So when you say like the younger days of being a wingman in the F-15 community, it's a lot about credibility. It's a lot about that peer leadership. How do you build the credibility? How do you build the trust to be someone that others look up to in that informal system, right, in that informal system. When they look down their phone, like, “Who do I call? Who do I have to call? Who do I want to call?” Right? and I think that's where you have to balance some of that stuff, and I spent time thinking about that, and trying to lean on lessons that I learned from the Academy, and while formal leadership positions were never handed to me, that doesn't mean you're not a leader, right? Like, you can't beat it, doesn't mean you don't just get to sit back and not lead.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:02Can you share an example of a time when you learned that about yourself, or what that looked like?
 
Col. Joe Bledsoe 16:09
In the flying world?
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:11Or as a cadet?
 
Col. Joe Bledsoe 16:12Yeah, as a cadet, I think the biggest one was — I'll take it back to, like, freshman, sophomore year, where I learned one of the key pillars that I'm convinced the Air Force Academy teaches all us grads about is time management, right? And I thought I was pretty good at time management, and then when you're now the president of 1,000 other cadets, your inbox fills up very quickly, right? Or you're like, “I thought I was good at time management.” And I learned very quickly that you can't do it alone, right? You can't do it alone, and I had to learn to surround myself with people that I trusted and that I could delegate or hand tasks off to, and just say, “I need this accomplished,” and I did that to my friends that I knew would get the mission done, right? And I had to have that level of trust, and I think that is translated throughout my career, where I inherently trust people with a project, right? I think there's two versions of trust, inherent trust and earned trust. When I look at the graduate network, whether that's the Air Force Academy, Navy, West Point, and I see a class ring, I'm like, “I inherently trust you,” and I can, I believe, or I see some other veterans have on — like, “I inherently trust you,” and then in other cases where I've had to learn and work with people, it's now, “I'm earning your trust, and I hope you're earning mine as well,” and that is this unique balance of I inherently trust you, I learned that at the Academy. Now let's build on that as a foundation and get this earned trust to as high as we can.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:54What does some of that earned trust or becoming more credible look like when young leaders don't have the benefit of time? Right, so I, the more time I work with you, the more I learn about you. You build that credibility, etc. How does one accomplish that, maybe either shorten the gap or do that a little quicker or impactfully earlier?Col. Joe Bledsoe 18:18Yeah, time is always — like we always need more time, right? How often do you say, like, “I only have 24 hours, but I need more time,” right? So, if we're always fighting time, like, and everybody's fighting time, then, like, that's a constant. So, let's not worry about time. So, I look at it as, like, what traits do people bring to the table, or what traits can we can we sharpen? Honesty, right? Honesty is huge. You have to be honest, and that's a pillar of trust. Integrity, right? Integrity first and showing people that you display integrity is really important. Humility, I think, is also really important. Humility is really important. I was listening to a podcast the other day, and it really struck home to me, a sense of humility is — if a leader is able to say three things, they're gonna — I know I could, I can build that trust, no matter what that time gap is. “I’m sorry,” “I was wrong,” or one of the seven basic responses: “I don't know, but I'll find out,” right? I think that's really important with humility. The other one is presence, not with a T, like we're not giving presents, but presence. Being present is really important character trait in my mind, and the fifth one that I try to reflect on a lot is action. Right? I think defaulting to not doing something is not what we want. That doesn't help build trust. Taking action with what knowledge you have and making a decision is really important, and I think those are the traits that help build that credibility, help build that trust in that time gap, whatever that looks like. If you can hit those, the five that I try to hit home. If you can do that, hopefully you're building that relationship that is going to foster — have great fruition out of it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:06That's outstanding, and that's really helpful, I think. I love how you took out the constant of time being an excuse, right? Like, we don't always have the benefit of time, whether it's time and getting more experience or just time in general, I think those are outstanding examples of how you can build credibility. So, thank you for sharing that. You know, one of the things that I also would love to kind of dig into a little bit of your experiences, Joe — because they've been really vast, right? So, I don't believe that everyone has the same kind of path. How have you grown as a leader in these different experiences that really, again, aren't positional leadership roles? I'm just curious, how your growth has been in that space.Col. Joe Bledsoe 20:47Think a lot of it's been through failure. I think a lot of it's been through failure. These might not be huge, like we lost a million dollars, or like, not through those kind of failures, but relationship failures, or conversation failure at the micro level, and how I've tried to handle that is surround myself with people that will tell me that the emperor — I'm gonna go back to the, I'm gonna go back to the old fairy tale, or fable, right? If you surround yourself with people that are able to come up to you, and you trust them, and you trust their feedback, that is something I've tried, that was Cadet Bledsoe, advice given to me is Cadet Bledsoe. Surround yourself with people that you will listen to and take their feedback honestly. And sometimes that means if I don't have that person in the room and I know I fumbled a conversation or I made a poor decision, it's going to that individual and saying, “I messed up, I’m sorry, I was wrong,” or “I don't know,” right. And that's how I try to use that to present humility, I think, and that's important, because we're all fallible, we all make mistakes, and if I can't admit that, then, like, we're off to the wrong foot right away.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:06Do you think some of that that skill that you've developed over time has been something that you've learned in, and forgive me, I don't know if it's a fighter pilot community, specifically, or you know, I think about when you do your sorties and you have some sort of debrief, right? I feel what I've heard, I've not actually sat in one, but they're very real. Like, there's no, it's not about making you feel good about it, like it's about the safety and the mission, and so I'm curious, if that skill of humility, and you know, calling a spade a spade, and calling it I'm wrong and I'm wrong, did that come from some of that experience, and maybe you can talk through what that's like, because not everyone, I think, practices at that level of transparency.
Col. Joe Bledsoe 22:46Yeah, the fighter pilot debrief. I learned some of the importance of that through mentorship as a cadet, and then that was sharpened as a fighter pilot. And I learned the importance of that through the form, my formal job, right, the mission, the lives at stake, aircraft, that kind of stuff. And I think I've tried, I've only honed that skill through Air Force training, right? The Air Force has trained me to think like that, and I've tried to translate that into my personal life and leadership positions, because I think there's tons of value to that. There is tons of value in being willing to find a mistake, own up to that mistake with the knowledge and hope that it doesn't happen again, right? And if that is like, if you, if that's your north star, we don't do this again, like, why wouldn't you want to be on that team? Why wouldn't, why don't you want to be? That's how we get better, right? And I think that seed again was planted as a cadet. Like, let's, I tell cadets all the time, like, you're joining the A-team, so put in A effort, right? Like, if you're going to join the A-team, I don't want B-players, and this is what we got to get, like, let's go, right? It's a motivating factor in my mind.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:08What are some of the ways to approach that in a leadership conversation for someone who would be interested in taking on some of those, those learned lessons?
Col. Joe Bledsoe 24:18
Yeah, I think the first thing is transparency and honesty right up front. Like this, Naviere, if we were flying together, right and you were my instructor, your job is not to degrade me as a human, but to prove to me that I made a mistake with the ultimate goal of making me better, right? Your job is to always, like — and the relationship you and I have as an instructor and a student is my — I'm gonna sit here in the debrief and go, and Naviere is here to make me better, right? Like, that's your, that's your job, right? Right. So, once you start that as the foundation, like, it can only get better if I know your job is to make me better, and your job is I'm supposed to make this guy better, right. And often we can, when feedback is provided, you're like, this could be a personal attack, or, like, that's all left out, that's all left outside the debrief room, right? Like, we're here to make everybody better, and I think that's where it starts: with that transparency and honesty up front of the expectation.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:15
So you'll actually say that. You would actually…
Col. Joe Bledsoe 25:17
No, I think that's just a common, that's a common theme, right? That's the expectation in the community. And not just in the fighter community. I think it's throughout the Air Force, right? I think that's what makes us really, really unique. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:32Because feedback is something that we, we do — although maybe some can do it better than others — I think that's a really fantastic way — before you're giving someone feedback, you're really clear on this is what we're hoping to accomplish by having this time together. And so, I think what you just said can make feedback so much more impactful, because it's not about the person, it's about what are we trying to accomplish and helping you, I guess. It is about you, but ultimately helping you.Col. Joe Bledsoe 25:59Absolutely, right? Like the where every debrief starts is we had a mission objective and we had tactical objectives. Did we do them? If we didn't, let's figure out why, right? So translating to the business world or private sector, it's a root cause analysis, right? It's a root cause analysis, and we will get down to the nitty gritty of like, what type of error — did you make a decision error? Did you perceive the environment wrong? Did your actions cause the error, right? And we get down to that level, so that when the student, student Paveway walks away, Naviere, knows, Naviere, you gave me the exact, like, you decided wrong, because X, Y and Z; don't do that again.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:43Right.Col. Joe Bledsoe 26:44Here's your fix. You know, that debrief can take hours, and that's the beauty of it, right? “We're gonna sit there, and we're not gonna let anything not be uncovered, because we're gonna go do this again tomorrow, and we can't make the same mistake tomorrow,” right? “We can't make the same mistake.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:01No, that's, that's fantastic. I mean, to have it that clear, and to know it, like, OK, we're not gonna, we don't stay in that space. We've addressed it, we know we've identified a fix, and we move forward. Is that what you said?
Col. Joe Bledsoe 27:12
Absolutely.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:13There's no like, continue to revisit, like…Col. Joe Bledsoe 27:15Yep, that's the point, right? Like, “I've learned something, I know, I've acknowledged my mistake. Let's move on. This wasn't personal, this was you making me better.” Iron sharpens iron, right? So, here we go, and then move on. And now that translates, as you asked kind of a couple minutes ago, right, that can translate to so many things in your life, right? And I try to do that sometimes, like my wife will tell me, I go too fighter pilot, but there's versions of that that translate as we are not in a fight or pilot debrief.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:50You literally got in my head because I was gonna say, now I want to put you on the spot, because Joe, you are married to your high school sweetheart, you make a 2% club, right? Like, you actually started the Academy with a sweetheart and ended with the same sweetheart. And now you have three amazing, beautiful children. How do you translate that to, you know, feedback to your family or your personal life? And I love how your wife said too fighter pilot, but how about to your kids?Col. Joe Bledsoe 28:15Yeah, married my high school sweetheart, Alicia. We started dating our sophomore year, and we've been together ever since. So she is not a grad, but she has a lot of Air Force in her blood, so that's great, and the kids, I would say there's a couple things when it comes to taking some things I've learned or been trained in the Air Force, translating on the home front. The first one goes to accountability, right? I think accountability is really important because in an aircraft, you have to be accountable for your actions, and I think that translates to being a parent, as well as trying to teach the kids some humility. Right, where to be humble, when to own up to your mistakes, and sometimes that works in the fighter pilot way, sometimes it doesn't, and I think that's leadership, right? You can have leadership skills and be consistent in some, in some ways, but other times adaptability is really important, especially with the kids, and each one of my kids is very unique, and we have to cater to each one of them and their unique skills. I will say about my wife, I love her with all my heart, but she knows the words “knock it off” as well, right, because that's a sacred word, not just in the military, but on our, in our homefront, and that usually means stop being a full fighter pilot, like go back to being Dad, right? So she knows, she knows the words and how to make that all go down.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:47I love that it's another language, right? You have your, your fighter pilot language, and you have a home front language. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. You know, I'd like to switch gears a little bit to your time operationally, and maybe this translates into now your work at the Institute, or your most recent work at the Institute for Future Conflict and preparing cadets for the future fight. I'm curious, how all of these skills that you've learned, and these leadership traits that you've continued to develop in yourself, have translated in moments of, you know, like, real conflict, real distress, like when the stakes are high, and how you prepare cadets to think that way, even though maybe they've not experienced that. I'm just curious, what that looks like.Col. Joe Bledsoe 30:31Yeah, it is hard to translate — like cadets love war stories, right? Like, “So there I was…” but it's hard to translate some of, like, the putting, having the cadets put themselves in the shoes of someone that has 15 years of flying under their belt, right? Like, that's hard for them to grasp, and I understand that, and that's not what I'm asking of them to do, but there are certain skills that I think are really important, and that I've got to experience and talk to cadets and research and spend time thinking about at the Institute for Future Conflict at the IFC. One is risk, right? How do we, how do we think about risk, right? Are we risk prone? We risk adverse? How do we think about risk, not just in this moment, but how does our decision today affect five days from now, a month, right? And, as you remember, because I know it happened to you as a cadet, like you're just in the, like, “What's my next problem,” right? What's my next — OK, how does, like, fixing this problem affect next week? Right. And I think that's what I've got had the opportunity to think a lot about the IFC, as well as try one thing I've learned being back here at the Academy was my experience as a cadet is not the same experience as the cadets now. And what do I mean by that is when I graduated, GWOT, Global War on Terror was the thing we knew what we were getting into. I very much knew flying, going to the Middle East. Now the cadets looked to me and other permanent party, and like, what's our fight going to look like? And right, the question mark is, I don't know, but let me tell you, think about this, and I could be wrong, and I think that is where I've had a lot of time to think about future conflict and what's problems, maybe not nations or adversaries, but like big meta level things they'll have to think about, information access, information sharing, trust, right? How do you, how do you help develop some of these skills in the cadets? And that's where I've spent a lot of time the last two years trying to think and spend, spend some brain bytes, like what does air power look like in this unknown environment?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:52And as you're about to step back into it, I'm thoughtful of that, and so now you're taking what you've helped cadets start to hone in and think about. How are you different now as a leader going back into the cockpit than you were when you came to the Academy?Col. Joe Bledsoe 33:09Yeah, let me get back to the cockpit, and everyone can tell me what, how I'm different. We'll use that as the test. But here's one thing I think — I've reflected on this recently, going back to the Strike Eagle community. One has been my exposure here in Colorado Springs and at the Air Force Academy, meaning I've learned a lot about what others do that I wasn't — I knew other jobs existed, I knew other AFSCs did things, but not being in a flying day-to-day ops tempo, I've had the opportunity to sit down and, like, “What do you say you do?” “Oh, that has some effects here, here, and here,” and I use a specific vignette would be, I've got to spend a lot of time in the management department and helped teach in the global logistics minor, and like, I knew there was logisticians in the Air Force, and like, that's yeah, right? That's how stuff got here, but like, understanding the importance of, like, that's how my bombs got here, this is how the b…, right, like, truly understanding their frustrations, I think will make me get less frustrated in my day to day, right, and I think that has been one thing that the Academy has given back to me the second time I've been here, is a little bit more exposure to the Air Force, as well as the Space Force, being here in Colorado Springs, like seeing what each team member, like each cog in the machine brings to the fight, right? And I think that's been a blessing here.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:42So those that you will begin to get back working with — your men and women in your community — they won't have had that exposure, and so I'm now going back to our where we started with the sense of informal leadership. How do you help others gain that experience and thought, and maybe thought process informally, since they haven't really been exposed to that? How would you help them navigate it?Col. Joe Bledsoe 35:09
Naviere, I think the best way to do stuff like that is, like, you raised your hand when you said logistics officers, like Naviere, we're doing a podcast with my next squadron, you're coming to talk, right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:19Right, it's like that was like a long time ago, we need someone more recent.Col. Joe Bledsoe 35:24But, OK, Naviere, it's not you, but you know people, that's how stuff gets done, right, that's how stuff gets done. And while I by no means want to stand up in front of everybody and say I'm the expert on logistics, but I, I'm not that person, but I trust Naviere, Naviere's contact here, and that's how, like, you create this network of knowledge and this network of trust and credibility. And to my, to the fighter pilots that I'll be flying with, it's somewhat like throwing mud at the wall sometimes, like we're gonna keep throwing mud and see what sticks, but at least they know it's there, right? Like, we're gonna, your job is still to go kill things and blow things up, but at the same time, you know there's this other network out there that you can lean into. But let me be a conduit to make that happen.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:15That is awesome. That's fantastic. So I want to go into this period now, where we talk about you and your continued growth as a leader. What is something, Joe, that you're doing every day to be a better leader?Col. Joe Bledsoe 36:30
I have mentors, and I've tried to find mentees. I think that is where growth can happen, leaning on others for mentorship and mentees to try to talk through some things you've thought through and give experience and exposure to others, right? And that's that network we were just talking about, right? Other things I think are really important is reading and writing. Read a lot, write a lot, nobody writes good anymore, right? Thanks, ChatGPT. But being able to communicate in the written form is really important. So, writing and reading. And the other thing, too, is as a leader, just find an outlet, find something, find a hobby, find something that's fun to do, right. So, I got into running here at the Academy, because we're at high elevation, and I'm, why not, right? But find something that, like, rounds you out, right? It's fine, find an outlet that helps give you some relief from all the stresses that can happen in leadership. That's where I would say I spend a lot of time, or what I think about trying to sharpen my skills.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:34Daily. So, what are you reading right now?Col. Joe Bledsoe 37:37
Oh, that's a great question. I have a couple books that are on the table. Mask of Command is one that I'm reading as I get ready to go back and potentially be in a leadership role. There's a couple other books that come to mind. I'm reading a baseball coaching book, because I coach my baseball, it’s a basketball book by Coach K from Duke, as I go back to North Carolina, but it's a book, how to coach kids, right, Leadership on the Court, and it's fun to just think about training and coaching kids and how to keep them inspired.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:18Oh, that's awesome. So, speaking of kids, if you were to go back in time, and talk to younger Joe Bledsoe, the third, what advice would you give him?Col. Joe Bledsoe 38:30
Yeah, if I had to go back, I would say it's worth it. Every second, work hard at the Academy, right? The doors that it opens, that's where my mind went when you asked the question, like, younger me at the Academy. Be good to Alicia, my wife, right? Be good, because she's going to be with you for a long time. So be good to her, as well as foster your, foster your friendships. They're going to mean a lot to you in the future, right? The relationships you build on that hill are going to come back in ways you have no idea years to come. So take time and prioritize the people that you meet.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:10Those are really great reflections. Joe, is there anything that we haven't covered in our conversation that you would love to share with our Long Blue Leadership listeners and viewers?Col. Joe Bledsoe 39:24Absolutely, be proud of this institution. I'm proud of it. I know you are too, Naviere. Proud of this Academy. Be proud of the cadets, be proud of the permanent party that work here. There's an A-team out there, and this is this is where it starts, right? And it's not just if you're serving in blue or in the Space Force, right? If you're out there doing awesome things for our country on the private, in the private sector, thank you. Keep doing what you're doing. There's no shade of blue in the Long Blue Line, that's my, my phrase for that one. There's no shade of blue. Serve your country, be proud. And that's — just be proud to be an Academy grad.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:07That's fantastic. So, you know, in our time together, I have loved this, this, this leadership conversation, because we really span an area that I don't think a lot of people talk about, and it's, how do you demonstrate leadership in an informal way, you know, without titles and without necessarily key positions or in the hierarchical structure, and so some of the things that really stood with me, Joe, that you've covered, have been being credible, being present, and humble. I really like that, and you didn't say this in these words, but what I took from that was, you know, being honest and truthful is almost one of the most kind ways you can be right, because you're actually helping someone be better, and that really stuck with me, you know. I don't, we have an A-team, we don't need B-players, that I think you exactly said that, so definitely stuck with me. But watching the way that you have led, not with your class, not just the cadets, and, you know, certainly not the squadron that you will have here shortly as a director of operations, but I think you've continued to just be who you've always been, which is someone who leads with integrity through those pillars and certainly by example. So this has been an incredible conversation, and for anyone that is watching us and listening to this, for others that are in their leadership journeys, this is another one you're going to want to share, because it's not just about, you know, Lt. Col. Bledsoe's journey right now, it's been all of these moments and experiences and memories and they really do connect with anyone on a leadership journey. So, be sure to join in on longblueleadership.org or wherever you get your podcasts, not just to see this one, but all of our other conversations. So, Joe, thank you so much for joining us today.
Col. Joe Bledsoe 41:46Thank you Naviere. Go Air Force!Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:48Go Air Force!
 
Col. Joe Bledsoe 41:49There we go.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:50
Absolutely, until next time, we'll see you on Long Blue Leadership.
KEYWORDSinformal leadership, peer leadership, Air Force Academy leadership, USAFA class president, fighter pilot debrief culture, building trust and credibility, leadership humility, future conflict and airpower, Long Blue Leadership podcast, military leadership lessons.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 
 
 

A devastating injury nearly ended her dreams of becoming a pilot.
SUMMARYLt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay ’98, Ph.D., says the accident was merely the first chapter in a career defined by perseverance, service and leadership. 
 
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DR. MACAULAY'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
1. Choose your hard: You don’t escape difficulty in life or leadership, you intentionally pick the hard path that aligns with who you want to become.
2. Let vision — not other people’s verdicts — define you by holding a clear internal picture of your future that outvotes external “no’s.”
3. Train your mind to eliminate the noise — unhelpful thoughts, doubts and narratives — to stay focused on what truly serves your goals.
4. Aim to harmonize your roles (leader, parent, partner, professional) across seasons of life rather than chasing a perfect work-life balance.
5. Be the calm in the storm by regulating your own stress response so your presence stabilizes your team instead of amplifying chaos.
6. Stop glorifying exhaustion and competitive stress and instead model healthy, high performance built on sleep, focus and quality over quantity.
7. Use simple daily mental skills — like mindfulness reps, the waterfall technique and a mindful minute at transitions — to protect clarity and compassion.
8. Replace “How are you doing?” with “What’s going well for you today?” to surface real insight, build hope and better detect those sliding toward hopelessness.
9. Practice present, personalized recognition, because small, intentional gestures of appreciation can forge lifelong trust and loyalty.
10. When you hit a crucible moment and feel unsure you’re ready, choose to commit and let the challenge grow you rather than hesitate.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Introduction, Jannell’s Academy injury, broken femur, and redefining “no” as possibility00:05:54 – Her father’s influence, early visions of command and flight, and limitless expectations00:09:26 – “Choose your hard,” setting vision, eliminating noise, and turning barriers into options00:12:22 – Air Force career breadth, strategy path, and introduction to the Syria chemical weapons mission00:16:31 – Saying yes to Syria as a mother, family conversations, and the weight of the mission00:19:00 – Syria as a crucible moment, inner critic vs external “no,” and committing through discomfort00:22:17 – Identity beyond the uniform, family strain, rare eye disease, and pivot to mental performance work00:27:06 – What stress really is, burnout, competitive stress culture, and leaders as calm vs storm00:36:35 – Mindful leadership in action: no-email Fridays, recognition calls, and the “waterfall” technique00:52:16 – “Breathless,” stories of Syrian mothers, legacy, and final advice to young leaders
 
ABOUT DR. MACAULAY
BIO
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. ’98, is a combat veteran who served 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, as a pilot, commander, special operations consultant, international diplomat and professionalism instructor. With her innovative leadership style, she was the first leader to introduce mindfulness as a proactive performance strategy within the United States military. Throughout her career she gained experience leading and building teams, designing and implementing complex organizational change, and creating innovative solutions to optimize the human weapon system when operating in rugged and high-stress environments. With over 3,000 flying hours in the C-21, C-130 and KC-10, and extensive education in performance and wellness, she specializes in high-performance under stress with a holistic approach. Dr. MacAulay currently serves as a leadership and human performance consultant for the Department of War, government sector and corporate America. She is the co-founder of Warrior’s Edge, a high-performance mindset training program she developed with Pete Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks and high-performance sports psychologist, Dr. Michael Gervais. Dr. MacAulay is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, has a master’s degree in kinesiology from Pennsylvania State University, and a Ph.D. with work in the field of strategic health and human performance. She is a certified wellness educator, yoga instructor and holds a certificate in plant-based nutrition. Dr. MacAulay is a TEDx speaker, military spouse and mother of two.
 
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Guest, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. ’98  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 
 
Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Leadership begins the moment someone tells you what you can't do, and you decide they don't get to write the rest of your story. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Well, Dr. Janelle McCauley, Class of ’98 welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is an amazing time for us. Excited to have you.
 
Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:19Thank you so much for having me. I know this has been a long time coming, so I'm excited to be here with you to start a conversation.
 
Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:24Absolutely, you know, I do want to highlight some of the things you've done. It's probably true that the list is shorter for me to say what you haven't done, but pilot, combat veteran, you're a leadership strategist, you're a mother, a wife, author — we'll talk about that later. You know, also really getting into the space of a human performance specialist, a commander, all of these things that you've done and, gosh, 20 years in the Air Force, and now having been out, so excited to talk today.Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:51Thank you so much for that amazing introduction. I don't know if I could live up to even what you just said, in some ways. But yeah, I just would love to share with your listeners how amazing the Air Force Academy can be for the potential and the possibilities for someone's future.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:07Absolutely, so let's actually jump into a time early in your cadet days, so we'll tie it right to the Air Force Academy. There was a moment in time where you literally broke your femur. I'm curious, did it break your dreams too, of being a cadet at the time?
Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:21It almost did. And there's a story to that, so I'll go into that a little bit. So, during basic training, I developed a stress fracture. You know, running in combat boots, especially the old black version that we used to run in.
Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:35Yes, I remember.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:36Not a good thing for your body. And so I had developed this pain in my right quad to the point where I could not even stand on my right leg to put my left pant leg on, during, you know, as you're rushing to — banging on the doors, we’ll be dressed, like, “Open the doors, you will be dressed,” yeah, and I would be, you know, Welcome to the Jungleplaying —
 
Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:55I remember that.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:56I'm putting up my pants and I'm in pain, and my roommate's like, “What is happening?” Like, “You need to go to the doctor,” and I refused to, at first, of course, right? Push through it, right? And then when I finally went, they were like, “Here's the Ace bandage and some vitamin M, you know, Motrin. And, of course, I didn't know anything different, so I kept going. And then it was three days after basic training had finished, and I was at cheerleading practice, and I was doing a back flip, and my femur, like, literally snapped in half. It sounded like a tree branch. It was — I just collapsed to the floor, and this was before we had cell phones, right? So, if you can imagine, I'm 17 years old, so I hadn't turned 18 yet, and so they couldn't give me any pain medication, you know. The emergency — the ambulances rushing into the emergency room at the Academy hospital, which was not equipped to deal with what just happened to me. So, they sent me up to the Army hospital in Denver at the time, was Fitzsimmons. They couldn't understand why a 17-year-old’s femur would just snap, and no one wanted to really address the fact that maybe it was a stress fracture at the time, so they actually told me I had cancer. So, they did — a bone type, a bone type of cancer, and so they did a biopsy on the bone. I lived in traction for 10 days while all my classmates were continuing on with their freshman year. So I was about — they eventually determined that this was not cancer, this was actually stress fracture, and so the two choices they gave me was a cast from my hip to my toe for about six months, or they were going to put a rod and four screws. So a rod the length of my femur, two screws of screws on my knee, two screws in my hip. And then the doctor said, “Either way, you're never flying airplanes,”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:36And that was your dream?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 3:38That was my dream. Yes, my uncle had flown Marine 1 for President Reagan, so I grew up watching him fly helicopters in the Marine Corps, fly the President, and just he was the coolest person ever, and I wanted to be just like him. He took me to the air shows, so yes, it was a crushing moment. You know, it was something where I thought I could either let what people were telling me, the doctor saying, “You're never gonna bend your leg like this, you're never gonna be a runner, you're never gonna be a pilot,” and I could let that define me, or I could choose to define myself and what I was going to be capable of, and what the possibilities would be for me in the future. And so it was very hard for 17-, 18-year-olds to process all of this, but my dad used to give, tell me a quote, and it was, “Vision is the art of seeing the invisible,” and he would always tell me, “If you could see it for yourself, you can make it happen,” and so when it came time for being pilot qualified, I actually chose to get all of the metal removed out of my leg, just so that there was no reason for them to not allow me to go to pilot training. And so I went through that, which was —
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:49Another surgery, wow.Col. Jannell MacAulay 4:50Yes. So through all of that, I have learned that was the first experience where I learned a lot about myself and what I was, what I could focus on, how I could set a vision for myself in the future, and how I could start to eliminate the noise — that's what I call it now. I didn't have language for it at the time, but it's eliminate the noise that does not serve us in pursuit of our passions, in pursuit of our dreams. And that was what I had started to do, which it's kind of full circle that that is now my career, to help other people do it.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:26I want to peel that back a little bit. There's so many things. I mean, your dad's quote: “Vision is when you can see the invisible. I think I paraphrased that a bit. One more time.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:33It's actually a Jonathan Swift quote, and that “vision is the art of seeing the invisible.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:39OK, so were you always that way growing up because you had, you know, your dad in your life sharing that kind of thought with you, or has it been a series of experiences that you've had that have kind of really made you that way?Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:54So, my dad has always been a very positive role model in the sense of eliminating barriers and dreaming big. So, when I was 7 years old, and I was a ballerina, he used to tell anyone that — and I distinctly remember this as a little girl — he would tell anyone that would listen that I was going to grow up to be a submarine warfare commander or a combat pilot.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:16Oh, wow, not a swan, no ballerina, you know —
Col. Jannell MacAulay 6:18And I would literally be in my tutu, and he would tell strangers at the grocery store, right, “This is my daughter, Jannell, she's gonna grow up and do these amazing things.” And in the ’80s, women couldn't do it, right? We weren't there yet, right? We were not allowed to — and so I didn't know that. I didn't grow up thinking that there were barriers on what I could become, and I think that's a, we have this role as parents to help our children see what's possible, because you know they can either be told where the limits are or they could be told where the possibilities exist, and I think my dad did a lot of that for me, and so that I think is a lot of my story is, like, journeying through challenge and trauma to figure out that I didn't have to listen to that voice. I could create a new one, and my dad taught me how to do that, and then I've kind of developed, what I think, are skills and training, because it's hard. It is very hard to do, and so I like that's been what my Ph.D. work and my research has been focused on, is how can I help other people who don't have maybe that those resources or their parents in their life that have taught them those things. How can I give them those tools?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:27So you were a cadet when you made the decision that you still wanted to be a pilot, and you didn't want there to be anything that said you couldn't, so you made the decision to have the metal removed from your body. As we think about decisions that we have to make in life, that could be dream-opening decisions or dream-closing decisions. How did you come to that decision? And you know what would you share to someone who's at a similar crossroads in their life? Like, how do you navigate? That's a tough decision you made.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 7:54It was a huge decision. I think part of it is understanding what are you passionate about? Who do you want to become? And not just about what you want to do, what type of person you are. That's a lot of what I think mental skills work is as well, is like, who's the person underneath, because once you figure that out, then the doing follows, right? Like, you could do anything, and I was the type of person underneath it all that did not like to be told no, right? Or I loved it when someone would say, “You can't do that,” right? It's like the challenge is what inspires me and motivates me, and so when they were saying you will not be a pilot, it was like, OK, well, then how do I get to yes? And part of that path was I had to have the metal removed. Now, there were some arguments, like, “Maybe you'll be fine.” I don't want to take the risk, right? I was like, “Nope, I don't want to give anyone an excuse to take something away from me.” That was kind of the mindset at the time.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:00So, I think that really dives into this idea of, you can, when you said yourself: The no in front of you is kind of like, “How do I turn that into a yes?” You know, clear out the noise. How did that play into your life as an Air Force officer? Because I'm sure that you came across a lot of what we’re seemingly no’s. What did that look like?Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:22So, here's, but, and this goes back to the Academy as well. I tell young people today, my greatest gift is to tell them, “Choose your hard.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34
Choose your hard.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:35Choose your hard, right. Anytime I'm asked to speak to a college, you know, high school audience, like, I do mental skills, but a lot of times the theme is “choose your hard,” because I think people are — young people are always in pursuit of the easy button, and then when they encounter hard, like, “Oh, there's got to be a better way.” The lesson is, it's all hard, right? It's all hard. So, determine what you want to do, or who you want to be more, and how you're going to get there, set the vision, and then navigate through the hard. And I would argue you need to equip yourself with the mental skills to do that, and in pursuit of that, there is going to be no right, there are going to be challenges, and part of it is accepting the challenges instead of being afraid of them, because it is through those challenges that we're actually going to accomplish great things, and we're going to get to reach our dreams and our goals. And I think that that is something I struggled with, but I found a way and a path through it. So, I think that there's always going to be no in your life, and I like to create opportunities, so then I have, I get the choice instead of just having to default to someone else telling me no, like even when I left the Academy, I applied for pilot training for grad school, for physical therapy school. Because I wanted to have opportunities, so then I got to choose which path I wanted in the future, which hard I was going to choose for myself in that moment.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:03I just — I'm thinking about you, went into the Air Force as a pilot, and you talk about choosing your hard, and you also are a mother. Let's talk about that piece. I think just navigating the and in being a mother and a leader and an Air Force officer and a combat veteran, a pilot, etc. I mean, that's a lot.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 11:23It is a lot, but I think underneath it all, the person that I am is one who not balances my life but harmonizes it and all the roles that I get to play. I think that's the greatest thing about the Air Force. You list all those things that I've done. I was watching the cadets yesterday, I was one of them, with just a bright future and so much possibility. And under one organization, I got to fly multiple airplanes, I got to go back to school numerous times, study a lot of interesting topics, from my degree in exercise physiology, from Penn State to my Ph.D. in strategy. So I got to study all these different things. I got to work in chemical weapons, which I know we're going to talk about later. I got to fly around the world, I got to lead people all under one team, right, one organization, and that is the greatest thing I think the Air Force can give people if they take those opportunities that are in front of them.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:23Yes. Well, let's, let's jump into a time — you actually brought up Syria. And so let's go there, because I think I would like to hear more about the story, and how it kind of unfolded around the chemical weapons there.Col. Jannell MacAulay 12:36So, I got sent to — it’s post… So I went to the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies — SAASS time, and my husband and I were actually the first married couple to go through SAASS together. And stayed married at the end. There was one other married concept that it were exactly that. There was one other married couple with us at the time, which is really unique, but I took — you know, through SAASS, you get a strategy focus, and you have to go do a strategy job somewhere for your staff to work. OK, and so my husband really wanted to go work at the Pentagon, so he was on the joint staff working on the Israel-Palestine desk for the chairman, and I was like, “What else can I do in DC to keep my family together, that would be interesting?” And there was this job at this little organization called the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, and DTRA, as they're known, is the brain trust for everything weapons of mass destruction, so chemical, biological, nuclear weapons, planning, research, execution of mission, that is all run out of DTRA, and so I was like, “That sounds interesting, I've never done anything in any of this space, but it'll be an easy job,” is what I thought, because I was about to have my second baby, and every time I call them, no one ever answered, like, past 3 o'clock so I'm like, “Great job.” Exactly. Like, I got my staff tour done, and I get to do something new. But I was a fish out of water, you know, like former pilots, like going into this situation, the WMDs. They gave me that job also, because no one wanted it, it was almost asking people who are experienced in the world of chemical weapons to do an impossible task, right, to handle an impossible problem. And so, at the time, nobody really wanted to put their name to it, because there was a no-win. We don't have diplomatic relations with Syria, like this — a bad civil war was happening there with an evil dictator, right? Like, how were we going to solve that problem without any type of relations? And then, you know their proxy of Russia, right? So then it's like we don't even have — we didn't have the greatest relations with them. So when August of 2013 occurred, and Assad used chemical weapons against a civilian population, 1,400 people died almost instantaneously from sarin gas. Sarin gas is one of the most awful chemicals, immediately, right? It's like paralysis. It makes your eyes water, like you become — it's a horrific way to die. And when that happened, my life changed, because all of a sudden it was like, “Oh my gosh, this is real. And, “Who's been studying this problem?” And at the time, it was you and your team. And so we kind of got thrust — I got — I went to London almost immediately to start briefing our international partners on what we had been building and studying, and luckily we had been, for the better part of six months, working on this problem. And then shortly after that, I went to the Hague, because Syria did turn over their chemical weapons to the international community, and there's a whole story behind that. Obviously, we got the Russians to help with that. And then I got sent to the Hague to work at the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons — the OPCW is who has all the inspectors and the teams who helped destroy and inspect the status of these chemical weapons — and so I got sent there to work with them and negotiate directly with the Syrians and the Russians to build the plan. And I remember my boss was like, “You have to go, and I don't know when you're coming back, we need someone over there to be running point on this mission,” and yeah, he sent me, and he said I didn't have to go writing my little kids, Andrew just turned 1, but he said, you know, “We need you, and this is what I picked you for, this mission, and this is what it's for.” So, yeah.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:31Wow, what did you — what went through your mind when you were asked to go, and you had the opportunity to make that decision? What do you mind besides the fact that you have young children?
Col. Jannell MacAulay 16:44Well, of course, like, I think, like most mothers, you never are like, “I still want to leave my kids,” right? I want to go, but I knew it was the right thing to do, because I had the ability to make an impact and a difference, because I knew the mission inside and out. I was the right person at the right time, and I was ready. I distinctly remember I went home to talk to my children. Well, Ally, she was 6 at the time, and I remember talking to her, and I said, 'Mommy has to go away to handle this mission. And what I'm going to do while I'm away is there's some really bad stuff that some really bad people have, and I'm going to work to take that stuff away from them, so that they cannot hurt anyone anymore, and she looks up, and she's, you know, crying. We're both crying, and she said, “Mommy, like a superhero?” And, I just, like, kind of nodded, and she's like, “You can go, Mommy,” like, “You can go.” And it was in that moment that I realized, like, that's why we do these jobs. It was to protect her, to model to her that, like, I can be a mom, I can be a strong mom, and I can also go do things in the service of my country and the service of my nation and it was important for me to go, and then — so that was a driving force, like knowing that my family was going to be OK and supportive, but the other driving force was thinking about the mothers in Syria who lost their children, and thinking, here I was holding mine and they will never get to hold their children anymore. I mean, hundreds of children died and were put in mass graves after this, and mothers didn't get to say goodbye, mothers didn't get to hold their children, and they suffered immensely in those moments. And so I kept thinking about the Syrian mothers, and how if I could do anything to help prevent something like that from happening again, then I had to go, right, I had to do that for them.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:44Would you say that that mission, or that part, that time in your career, was something that was so impactful in your life it changed you, or it maybe shifted your focus on things you were going to do later, or was it just at that time, this is where I need to be doing and making an impact?Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:01There's a whole story behind it, where we were dismissed, and we came up with the innovative idea of how to solve this problem by destroying these chemical weapons on a boat, ship — sorry, Navy — on a ship in the middle of the Mediterranean.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:12Was that because you were told it couldn't be done that way?
Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:14Yeah, exactly.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15Oh, interesting.Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:17We had to actually start a whisper campaign within the Pentagon, and the State Department and the National Security Council to get our idea heard. And eventually, it was.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:28So I’d like to take a little bit of time in that space of when you recognize that need to keep pushing for, right, the choosing your hard. How do you navigate that? What would you recommend to somebody who has been no, no, no, no, no, no, no. How do you work your way through that?Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:45Well, I would first ask, where is the no coming from? Because if the no is coming from your inner critic, right, I know how to get rid of that and eliminate that, and that is actually what most people — like, that is what prevents most people from doing great things. I like to say that we all have these crucible moments in our life, a moment where we're asked to do something that we really don't think we could do, right? Like, we're kind of like, “Oh my God, deep down you're like, “Oh, I don't think I'm gonna do this. Can I do this?” And in that moment, we have the opportunity to either hesitate or commit.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:24Was Syria your yes?Col. Jannell MacAulay 20:26It was very much a crucible moment. You could either hesitate and say, “Oh no, I can't do this, it's too big for me,” like, “I can't take this responsibility,” or “I can't make this decision,” or “I can't believe in my idea,” because the voice in your head says so. But sometimes it could even be real people telling you and dismissing you and saying, like, “You can't do this.” So, “Where does the no come from?” is always the first question. And if it's an internal no, you can train your mind to eliminate that noise. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:54Yes. OK, I like that, because then you — it opened up your eyes to the possibilities of who you might connect with that can then help navigate through some of that challenge.Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:03And here's the reason why we, as humans, love this: What happens when you step into discomfort, right? You're at that moment, that crucible moment, and then you decide to commit, and you step into discomfort, and you navigate through it, and you get to the other side. How does that feel?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:18Amazing.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:18Right? You throw your arms up in the air: “I’m a badass! Look at what I just did.” And even you're like, I didn't think I could do that, and I did it. That is what we live for as humans. I don't think people realize that, right? Like, we want those moments, but we don't want the discomfort that comes in getting them.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35We want to be at the other end, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:37We just want to be at the other end of that, because we love that moment where you throw — so you're not gonna throw your hands up if you're like, “Oh yeah, that was so easy.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43That's a good point.Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:44Right. You wouldn't be like, “I feel so good about it.” I'll come—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:45We wouldn’t share with people if everybody could do it.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:47Right? Exactly, so we do love those moments as humans, and I think that is part of what — I teach people how to not be afraid of discomfort, to get more opportunity and more times, more reps of those throw your hands up in the air and be a badass. Right? Like, and that's really what I think it's about, is being ready for that moment, and the more often you're ready for that moment, the more often you step into discomfort, the more throw your hands up in the moments you get..Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:18So, if humans are chasing that, and that feeling of, like, you know, commit, raise your hand, get through it, and you know, kind of bask in like that, that moment, because you loved it so much. There's probably a desire to seek more of those opportunities. How did you navigate your career after that? I know you served 20 years. Was there a point where you're like, “It's time for me to move into this space,” or did you just happen to really decide to commit to this new world of mental performance and toughness?
Col. Jannell MacAulay 22:49So, I, like, most military members, I went through a phase where I got really caught up in my identity as an Air Force officer, Air Force pilot, and it can be scary to leave that identity with the one you've always known, the one that you've been comfortable with, and even though I'm successful in — and even though I do enjoy challenge and discomfort, it was scary, right? It is scary, and I think that, well, first, part of my story was, I don't know that I was necessarily completely ready to leave, but the Air Force was making it really difficult for my family. My husband and I, he was a maintenance officer, pilot, you would think maintenance and pilot, very like cohesive, compatible. We would be able to be stationed together. We spent six years apart, and two of the last three that I was in the Air Force, we did not live together. OK, and that was hard. Our kids are getting older, and I distinctly remember I was in New Jersey, commanding a squadron. My husband was in New Mexico, commanding a group. Note to the Air Force: New Mexico and New Jersey are only close in the alphabet, right? These are not close locations, not at all. And full disclosure, I had the kids with me and an au pair, because I couldn't have done it otherwise. And I remember my husband flew home, you know? He thought he would get in at like 2 a.m. on Friday night and have sleep for 10 a.m. on Sunday morning, right? Get back. I remember we woke up our son, he was four at the time, and he looks up and he goes, “Mom, Dad, you're together,” and I was like, “No, this is not OK.” Like I don't want my children to just wake up or just be grateful when their parents are in the same room, like, that's not what I want for their childhood experience. And so I actually gave up my command six months early, and that was one of the hardest things I've ever done, because I loved being a commander, but I was at a point in my life where I realized my squadron will get another commander who cares so much about them, just like I do, but my kids only have like one mom, yeah, and they had one dad, and they needed us together. And so that was a hard decision, but it did set me like on a trajectory to think about retirement, to think about, you know, what I could do on the outside, and actually it was like divine intervention, I actually lost my pilot qualification. I have a rare eye disease, and so I've gone very blind to my central vision, like 80% blind to my right eye. So I was going to get my pilot qualification taken from me, and so I think that was God's way of saying, “It's time, this is not your path anymore. You have a different gift,” right? Flying was a great gift, leading in the Air Force was a great gift. “There's a different path for you.” And so that's when I retired, and then kind of realized there were so many people that wanted to hear this information. There were so many people that were struggling with this idea of “How do I perform? How do I manage stress? How do I get those badass, like, throw my hands up in air moments?” And I started by working with high-performing teams, the military, first responders, hospital workers, you know. Then COVID hit, and I realized everybody, everybody needs it, stress, like psychological disorders, like they're on the rise, anxiety, and if I knew how to help people, why would I keep that to myself, right? Like, it's just became something I'd be passionate about.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:29Goodness, that's probably something that people don't know just by looking at you, that you actually have an eye disease that you battle through, and I'm curious on when you started into this work, like you said, COVID hit, and you realize everybody needed this. It almost is a bit of, maybe reinvention is not the right word, but you literally change your trajectory completely, even though you had all that schooling. So, my question is, how did you actually, how do you determine who you work with, because the land is so vast of who needs it, you know? I mean, how do you actually do that?Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:06There's only one of me. It has been hard. My tribe is always the military, and even though I do spend a lot of time in the private sector working with, you know, companies from Amazon, NBC Universal, like, hotel chains, different industries — which I love — anytime a military commander reaches out and says, “We need help,” whether it's burnout, whether it's just not optimizing performance, whether it's stress-management, because if you look at the majority of DOCS today, people are burnout and stressed out, and—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:47
Oh, the organizational climate service.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:49Yes, yes, the climate service. And so most of the time, how do you, how do you manage that as a commander? Because, and here's the thing about stress and burnout: Stress is a perceived emotion. People don't think about it, but the actual what stress is, is your perception as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of a given moment. So, your brain, when you're faced with a stressor, something comes at you, and it's a stimulant, right? And your environment, whether it was like a contentious conversation, traffic, it was like a big decision, like flying a plane in combat, right, whatever that is coming at you, your brain does a like split-second calculation as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of that moment, and if your brain says, “Oh hell no,” it becomes overwhelming, it becomes stress, it be it sends you into this like spiral of like anxiety, which is like — what anxiety actually is, it's your mind's creation of what you think is going to happen in the future. It actually hasn't happened to you. Anxiety is a complete creation of the mind, right? It is. Our minds are fantastic at mental time travel. They will take us in catastrophizing about the future. I like to tell people, the majority of the catastrophes you will experience in your lifetime, they will only happen inside your head, right? They will feel very real, because our minds are fantastic at this time travel. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:11Then it turns physical. Col. Jannell MacAulay 29:12Yes, then it becomes like part of our physiology. So that's what this is, what leads to chronic stress. It leads to preventive illness that sets in, because we live our lives in this chronic state of stress, and stress again is a perception. So you could also be stimulated by that stressor, and instead of getting overwhelmed, you could say, “Bring it on.” Like, this is a challenge and I’ve got the resources to meet this moment. It’s a choice. Again, I get people, “It’s not as simple as that.” It is as simple as that, but it's hard in practice, and most of that is because we have spent 20, 30, 40 years training and wiring our brains for one direction, which is to strat for stress and survival, right. And so when I do ask people to flip it, you can't just flip it over, but these are not soft skills. This is why what I teach is very hard, because you're rewiring your brain. The good news is it's called neuroplasticity. We can rewire our brains, but it does take work and deliberate commitment, and that's why, you know, I see this all the time with spouses. They're like, “I don't see what is the big deal. My wife is freaking out,” or vice versa, like in a cockpit. Like, I'm calm, and I'm like, “Why is my co-pilot freaking out?” It's that perception, and how our brain deals stressors.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:27So, we have a lot of listeners that are leading people. How do you navigate their ability to help others through that, or is it really more dependent on the individual themselves? Like, do you need the individual to do with the work with you, or can you work with the leader and help them navigate that with their folks?Col. Jannell MacAulay 30:46You can absolutely work with the leader, and as a leader, you can role model the behaviors. So, there's some real science behind this. For example, how often is a leader creating a storm instead of being the calm in the storm, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:02More often than people realize.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:03Right, it really is, and it's almost one of those things where later can be the calm in the storm, right? But when they're not, they embody the stress that then pervades through the organization, right? Like they create that culture, and so if you have a boss that comes in every day stressed out, you have a boss that's not sleeping. I absolutely, this is what drives you crazy about leaders in the Air Force, who will say things like, “I only sleep three, four hours a night,” and like, you are bragging your suboptimal, right, from someone who studies performance and psychology, and like, you are literally telling people, “I am not ready to make decisions on your behalf or be your leader today.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:42I like how you said that: “You are bragging your suboptimal.” That is right, there, those words, that's fantastic.
Col. Jannell MacAuley 31:48Right, but we — it's part of our culture, right, to even kind of be like proud of it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:51How much did I actually, you know, keep myself up to get more done?Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:55Yes, yes. And so here's another example. I'll tell a quick story. I was a commander, sat down Monday morning meeting with my peers, and one guy says, “Oh, I worked all day Sunday on performance reports, like, I have a sick kid at home, so I only got like two hours of sleep, like barely had time to grab coffee, you know, but I'm here to be a badass.” And then the next guy goes, “Well, let me tell you something. I worked Saturday and Sunday on all my performance reports, and, oh, by the way, two sick kids at home, so I didn't sleep last night.” Wow, you know, “I didn't have time to grab coffee, but like, I'm here to be a badass.” And then they turned to me, like, expecting me to one up them on my stress. It's a culture of competitive stress that we live in. And instead, I said, “Well, my husband doesn't live with me. I had to get all my work done last week, so I can spend the weekend with my kids,” but mind you, I had the OSS, the flying squadron, so I had triple the size squadron, “but I got all my work done last week because I was more focused in my work. Then I hung out with my kids, everyone slept great, like no one's sick, we're all good. I've got my yummy green smoothie to start the day,” and instead of anyone at that table saying, “Oh my gosh, how do you do that?” The sentiment was, “Well, she's obviously not working hard now.” That's our culture, like our culture is one of, if you're not stressed, if you're not showing how busy you are, you're not valued, and actually that is not the path to performance. The path to performance is quality over quantity, it's sleeping, it's demonstrating to stay calm, it's making good decisions, it's, you know, so we as leaders can either set that tone that we're in this competitive stress, which then makes our captains not want to be us, like that's a huge problem, right? But if you're the type of leader who stays calm, if you're the type of leader that they see, “Oh, they go home every night on time, they do spend — they do leave early sometimes to go to their kids' soccer game.” That could, should be OK, but it never — I never didn't perform my job right, I was still working hard and doing the things I needed to do every day, I just was more efficient. Here's the stat: We mind-wander half our waking moments. Do you know what that means? Like, we've all read a page in the book, back to the bottom. Yep, don't know what I read. Drove in your car someplace, don't know how I got there. Yep,
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:06Yep, autopilot
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:06That's when you have an off-task thought, your brain, your attention system goes off task during an ongoing task or activity. I'm telling my brain to pay attention to driving or reading, it goes elsewhere. It's unintentional, and when our brain does that. t mind-wanders towards stressors, worries, catastrophes,
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:41To-do lists.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:22To-do lists, exactly. All of those horrible things that then make you more angry and distraught and unhappy, right? So, what if we could get control of that, stop spending so much time in that distraction and be more focused? Well, you do that by not having your phone all the time, you do that by looking at people and actually listening, because this is where leadership comes in. If we're having a conversation and I'm telling you something important, you're my, you're my commander, and I look at you and I'm like, “She's looking at me but not listening.” You can feel that as you can see. And so leaders can be mindful and focused and pay attention. It doesn't take that much, but it takes awareness. That's really what we're training when we train our minds. We are training our awareness. I'm not saying that I am perfect at being focused, I am not perfect at staying calm. The difference is, is when I start to get out of control, I recognize it quickly, and I redirect. When I notice myself not paying attention to our conversation, I redirect very quickly. That's the skill, and that's what we're not teaching enough leaders, I don't think. We're getting there, because I think leaders can set the talent, leaders can set the example, and when I was a commander, I collected data, and we found that, you know, 60, over 60% of the leaders I was interacting with on a daily basis changing their life based on the things I was teaching them, based on the way I was modeling behaviors, and then a greater squadron, it was like 35% and that's — I didn't even teach them anything, I just demonstrated an example. So imagine once you start teaching people how much more those stats will grow and how people's lives will change.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04Right. well, one of my favorite stories, I think, that you know, and I'm thinking about our leaders that are listening in here as they, as they think about how they can be better leaders. One of the stories you shared previously was actually recognizing someone by calling someone important in their life to share their good news, and it took like two minutes. I think what a wonderful lesson, like being a great leader and championing someone does not have to take a long time, but the impact lasts — could be forever. Do you mind sharing that story? Because I just think that's such a wonderful one.Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:35I love that story. So, I had an airman who got below-the-zone senior airman, and I used to do a thing where, you know, whether it was a coin or whether it was an award or whether it was just a job all done, and we wanted to celebrate someone in the squadron, you know, you could send someone an email. I hate email, which I did — also as a commander, No- Email Friday.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:56Really?!
 Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:56Did not check my emails on Fridays because I wanted one day where I wasn't chained to my desk, like I was like, in fact, you know how my wing commander found out I was doing No-email Friday?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:06Because they emailed and you didn't email back?Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:08He got my out-of-office response. Welcome to No-email Friday. “I'm not checking my email today. If you really need to get a hold of me, call me. There's my phone number.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:15I love that.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:16So I did that to ensure that I could spend more time with, like, how do you lead people if you don't know them?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:23Right, you can't.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:24And if you're sitting behind your desk or you're checking emails, like, you can't know people. So I would spend Friday down and about, and we used to do this thing where I would call someone special first for someone, if maybe they had a big event or whatever we were celebrating. So one day, this gentleman got below the zone, and I asked him to pull out his phone, because I used to call people, and people don't answer strange numbers anymore. So that stopped working. I was like, “You pick — pull out your phone, let's call someone special that you pick, and because everyone's gonna answer their kids, right? And I actually talked to, like, spouses, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, like brothers, sisters of people, yeah, over the course of my commands, and I asked him to pull out his phone, called his dad. I got to brag on him a little bit, saying, like, “Hey, this is what your son is doing,” and most of the time kids don't even tell their parents what they're doing in the Air Force, so it was an opportunity for that. At the end of the conversation, I remember it just like it was yesterday. The dad said, “I'm so proud of you, I love you, son.” And I looked up, and my airman just had tears streaming down his face, and I was getting choked up, and my airman said, my dad has never said that to me before. So we're busy as leaders, like we are, go, go, go, we are in a competitive stress environment, whether we want to be or not,and I'm just asking leaders to pause, right, and it doesn't have to take a lot of time, right, just pause. Those types of interactions you have with an airman, the next time you need them to work late, the next time you need them to take the hill, the next time you need them to go deploy, or whatever it is, you've built a level of trust that only happens when you're paying attention, and that's what the future fight is about. The future fight is about connecting as human beings and focusing when we're doing those hard and challenging things, and the way we do both of those is by training our attention system. You know, we have to pay attention to each other, and we have to pay attention to our job, so that we can be high performing when it's hard.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:25This has been excellent. I didn't — wow. Got me… Tears. Eyes are sweating here in the studio. No, this is wonderful. I'm curious, with all the work that you do in helping others, what is something you're doing every day to stay sharp yourself in this space to be better as a leader, what's something you do?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 39:46I am really big on continuously challenging myself, like I always want to have a goal or something hard in my future, like I think that that, especially as we get older, I think it's really important. And so, on a personal front, I just signed up to run 50 miles.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:04Oh my goodness.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:04I got five friends to do it with me, so I'm like excited. Yeah, it's not all in one day, it's like you run a 5k, 10k, half-marathon, marathon over the course of four days.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:14And so the longest race at the end. Wow.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:16At the end. Yes, that's why it's a big challenge. And so that's my next one.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:22When is that?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:23That is in January.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:24Oh my goodness, so yeah.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:25Just about. And again, for someone who was told you will never be a runner, I think that's also why I want to do it, you know, just to prove to myself that I can, so that's kind of a personal challenge, but on the leadership front, you know, I challenge myself every day. Writing a book was scary, right? You know, when I go and work with each team, whether it's someone in the, you know, like a company or whether it's a military unit, I try to take my time to like customize exactly what they need. It's not just going to be like cookie cutter for everyone, and so that's like my continuous challenge is, can I go into an environment and lead and instruct and educate and train in a way that's meaningful to that group, and that's, you know, what I would, I do for my job, but most importantly, I love this sentiment that you can be everything to someone or you can be someone to everyone. Sometimes in my job I get on a stage, I talk to thousands of people, and I'm someone to a lot of people, right? I can give them a little piece of what I teach, but I also have two young people in my life, my children, that my role to be everything to them is also very important, and so I try to harmonize that the best I can, because it's easy. They get caught up in, like, I'm just gonna go out there and keep sharing this message and forget that there's people closest to me. You know, leadership is about influence, right? Your 3-foot circle, which one of my classmates at the academy, Ronnie Buller, taught me, right? Your 3-foot circle is who you interact with, whether it's your family, your team, your neighbors, your community, and so you have the ability to continuously lead, and that's I want to continuously lead by example and teach people that we need to train their minds. It's not a whoo whoo thing, it's a hard thing that requires deliberate and consistent practice, and it will pay dividends if you give it the focus and time it deserves.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:28I appreciate that you use the word that you like to harmonize things in your life versus balance. I think that's a very distinct difference. It's really impressive. If you could go back in time and talk to Janelle, young Janelle, or maybe it's even just talking to your daughter once you're young girl. What advice would you give her in the space of leadership?Col. Jannell MacAulay 42:48Well, I would say to choose your hard, and I wish somebody would have imparted that a little bit more on me. I had that sentiment, and I had a lot of grit, and I had a lot of determination, and that's why I did accomplish a lot when I was younger, but it was more difficult than it needed to be. I'm not here to say, like, it makes it easy, it can be easier when correspondingly, like, you're, you're, you have great, you have determination, you're repetitively challenging yourself, that builds mental strength. But if I had known that I could also train my mind in a deliberate way, in parallel, just to make it a little bit easier, and to also find the joy in the journey. There's a picture of me when I got back from a KC-10 deployment, and I'm holding my daughter. She was 15 months, so it was like the first time I had deployed when she was young, and that was a hard deployment. And I remember, like, I look at that picture, and I can see in my face and in my eyes, that I was always already worried about the next thing. Like, instead of being joyful that I was holding my daughter, I was like, in this great moment—
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:04That's what I was expecting you to actually explain, that's crazy.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 44:07I wasn't there, like, my mind was already like, “OK, gotta go again,” like, “When's the next thing?” like, “When is was my next three-week trip that I have to leave her, when is the next thing that I'm gonna miss in her life?” And, you know, we spend a lot of time living our lives, stressful moments, a stressful moment to stressful moment, and I wish that I could have learned earlier to embrace the moments in between, to see them, right? I mind-wandered through many of them, I was just worried, I was catastrophizing. I mean, how many of us spend time in the military? As soon as you get to your first, your next assignment, you're already worried about what your next one is, right? You're like, OK, what do I need to do? Like, like, yes. And you're for me as a joint-spouse couple, there was no protections for us back then. Like, I love that they're finally gone, and I better know, yes, right? I'm so grateful for that, because we did not have those protections. It was like, here's where he's going, here's where you're going, and unless you had a commander or a leader that cared enough to make a phone call, you're going separate ways. And so I wish that somebody would have told me then to stop worrying so much about the next thing and just live more in the moment, I would have saved myself a lot of extra stress, a lot of extra angst, and I would have had more joy. And so that's really what I want for this generation, and that's why I work so hard, and I'm so passionate about this, is because if I could do it again, that's what I would want to remember.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:31So, with so many listening and watching, this is your opportunity to be, you know, something for many. What is the thing that they might do? A small thing they could do, just in their lives, to be a little bit better in their mental space and their mental capacity or performance.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:48Gosh, I have, like, an 8-hour course.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:51I know. That’s why I was like, “Here’s a nugget everybody, pay attention.”
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:56OK, I’m going to give you — can I give you three? Which ones to pick? The first one is to start practicing mindfulness, to start doing mental pushups. You cannot layer in productive thinking, you cannot pivot your mind unless you eliminate the noise. Like, that's the first thing you have to do. You have to be able to see the thoughts inside your head and make a conscious choice not to follow them. Because a lot of them are not providing value to you, right? And the skill set that does that is mental pushups, is mindfulness, and it's this idea of the definition of mindfulness is being in the present moment without any emotional reactivity or judgment. Like, just be here now without judgment, that's what it means. And it's a deliberate practice of continuously being here now without judgment, so that when you are in a moment with lots of judgment, you can filter right, and especially that's where greatness comes from. It's not because of a great moment, it's because of what you do in the moments you're given. Second thing is, for leaders, stop asking people, “How are you doing?” I want them to rephrase that question and ask, “What's going well for you today?” And the reason we do that is for those two reasons: The first one is when you ask someone how they're doing, you're gonna get — most people are just gonna give you like, “Busy,” right? “Good,” “Fine,” “Liiving the dream,” whatever, right? But did I, as a leader, get any information from you when you say any of those in response? No. And then what we do as leaders? We get, “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” And then we—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:36Check the box, check the box, check the box.
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 47:37Yes. And if you happen to have someone who's like, "Oh my gosh, let me tell you,”you're almost like, “Oh my God, good for you.” I didn't mean for you guys to tell me, because that's our cluster again, right? So I want leaders to start asking people what's going well for you, and that does two things. Now I'm going to get information from you based on your answer, and that information is also going to start training your mind and your psychological framework toward optimism and hope, because do you know the biggest problem for leaders today? I think is missing the hopeless people. We think that there's this binary of optimism and pessimism, and so the optimistic people, we can find them easy, and the pessimistic people, we can find them easy too, right? They're usually, I'm usually focused on the pessimism, because they're noisy and they're loud and they're annoying and they’re bothering us and they’re bothering the whole unit, right? And sometimes we're like, “Oh my gosh, Bob is so negative and angry,” like, “We should worry about Bob.” But the thing is, is that actually Bob's not your worry, because people who are pessimistic understand they're on a sliding scale. A pessimist thinks that there's a genuine belief that things could get worse, but if you believe things can get worse, you know they can also get better, right? Which is what optimism is. I genuinely believe things will get better. So, a pessimist — it's not binary. I want people at leaders to open up the aperture. There's optimism, pessimism, and then there's hopelessness and hope. That's the second thing. And then the last thing is leaders suffer from what I call compassion fatigue. OK, it's a very real thing. How many of us spend all day at work — it's kind of a combination of decision fatigue and compassion fat. You spend all day at work making decisions for other people, you make, you spend all day at work taking other people's problems, and if you're an empathetic person, like you take it on, right? You're like, “Oh my god, feel so bad, like airmen that are struggling with all these things.” Then you go home and someone at home says, “What's for dinner,” and you flip out about what's for dinner, right? And it's like, oh my gosh, where did that come from? Like, I didn't mean to snap, or someone in your — it's very important to you, and your whole life comes to you and needs you, needs your attention, and you're like, I have no more attention to give you, I have no more compassion to offer, because I am done, like I am burnt, so it's a very real thing, and it's not an excuse, I might have given people a label for what's happening, like it's this thing—
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 49:57I have compassion fatigue.
Col. Jannell MacAulay 49:59Which is very true, and it's a very real thing, and I'm not giving you an excuse, I'm telling you, you need to fix it, and here's how you need to every time, like the whole time you're at work during the day, you need to shed all the mental distress that happens. You need to shed the empathy, right? Your empathetic, the empathy that you use when you're in an interaction with someone builds like extra stress into your. It's actually in your like body, yes? Right? Like, exactly. you take on those physical, and it becomes a physical manifestation. You need to shed that. So, what I have is called a waterfall technique.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 50:36Waterfall?
 
Col. Jannell MacAulay 50:38So when you're, yeah, yep, so when you're engaging with people, remember we don't want to be distracted and not paying attention. So, put your phone away once you invite someone in your office. I don't have it. It distracts you by 20% if you have it on your body or in your view, right? Just have it put away. So now you're more attentive. Then I'm going to listen to you when you tell me whatever's going on in your life, and I'm going to envision we're at the top of the waterfall. Visualization is very powerful for our minds, so we're going to visualize that waterfall, and I'm talking to you, we're having a conversation, I'm fully present. You might have some stuff going on in your life, like I might have to take a note, I might be OK, follow up, I might give you some mentorship, but when we're done, your problems go down the waterfall, right? Like, we want to feel, “Oh, I’m  their commander.” No, it's still not your problem, right? The problem goes down the waterfall, so then the next person can come in. Now you're at the top of the waterfall again. I'm fully present with my next person that's coming in. I'm paying attention, I'm not thinking about the other conversation. Then when we're done, your problems get to go down the waterfall. It will protect your energy, it will protect your compassion, and so that when you go home, it'll just offer, you know. And then the other technique is before you walk in the door, do a mindful, mindful minute.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:48Mindful minute right there.Col. Jannell MacAulay 51:49Right.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:49Well, I'm glad you shared three, because I think you know, I think that's what it's about when you're on your leadership journey, and I think leadership is a lifelong journey, and I think anything we can do better, not only to help others but to help ourselves as well, is really important. So, thank you for sharing that. Well, I want, before we close, I want to go into this moment, because you said yourself is a little bit vulnerable, you've written a book. Let's talk about Breathless, and this journey you've now undertaken.Col. Jannell MacAulay 52:17So, Breathless is the story of mothers, and it's my story. And one of the women that worked on my Syria team with me, she was an Army officer, and we were both mothers of very young children at the time, and we also have two mothers in Syria that are sharing their stories with us, and they lost their children in a chemical attack. And so it's a story of mothers persevering through unimaginable odds, us working breathlessly to solve this problem, and basically having kind of this weight of the world on us to come up with a solution that would work and solve the problem, and then these mothers living in this horrible genocide, right, in this horrible time of a civil war, and under a ruthless dictator, and so they, the only reason why we're able to share their stories is because Assad, right, the liberation happened. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 53:16I was like, I was going to say they’re actually featured in your book. Gotcha. Col. Jannell MacAulay 53:20Yes, and we originally started writing this book without their stories, and then once Assad fell, like we reached out and we got two mothers to share their story, and one of the mothers, her children were just slightly older than my children, and she lost both of them. The other mother lost her daughter, and her daughter was in prison during the Arab Spring. Her son traded out with her daughter because she was afraid of the conditions and what was going to happen to her daughter in prison. So the brother traded out with his sister, and the mother didn't find out until — her name is Amsaeed — she did not find out that her son Saeed had died, executed with 25 other prisoners before Assad left the country, so she didn't find that out till after liberation, so she lost a son, she lost a daughter, this other mother had two children taken from her, and so the story is about both of our struggles. Sarin literally takes her breath away, and we were working breathlessly, you know, to help them, and just the story of what it means to be a mother, like what a mother's love, what a mother's heart will do. And I just talked to Amsaeed last week, we coordinated a Zoom together, and I got to hear her story firsthand. She got to meet me and understand my story, and it was very evident to me that she said something that was very pertinent. She , “The world has a short memory, and people have probably already forgotten about Syria,” right? Like, oh yeah, something with chemical weapons, bad dictator, like it's another part of the world. And so part of writing this book also is to keep her story alive, to not let the awful things that happened to these women, I mean, to the whole community of Syrians, right, civilians, but especially the mothers who had to not even get to bury their children, and to help their stories survive, so that we can prevent these types of atrocities from happening in the future. So that's really, I, this conversation with her, and that was my promise to her, is that we're writing this book to acknowledge this horrific thing happened, to all, to celebrate what women can do together, and to also just bring more awareness as to what a mother's heart means, and how it helped Tina and I persevere through this mission, and it helped them go through this awful, awful time and get to the other side, right? They had other children that they had to live on for, so that's really what it's about, and that's what I hope to share with the world.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 55:57Well, I thank you for taking the time to write that and share their stories, because you're right, I think memory is so short-term, especially if it's something that doesn't really impact, right? If you didn't feel any kind of personal impact, so I think bringing those stories to life is just a wonderful thing. So, thank you for doing that. Can't wait to get my copy. Impressive.Col. Jannell MacAulay 56:16Absolutely. And can I say one more thing to the young people today? When I was first in the Air Force, I never imagined that this mission was in front of me, that this opportunity was in front of me, or that I would be now writing this book and reflecting on my time again. I want them to know you don't have to be someone special, you just have to be willing to say yes to the challenge, that's really what it, what it comes down to. And so I want to encourage all the young people who are just setting off on these careers to not be afraid of the challenge to embrace it, and who knows what amazing things they're capable of, all the possibilities, all those dreams.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 56:56Janelle, this has been amazing. I mean, I think what you've shared in your journey, in your moments, and your experiences, this is all about what Long Blue Leadership is. I mean, our listeners, those who are watching this, there's no doubt that they've taken something that is going to help them, and their 3-foot circle around them, right? And their community, so this has been incredible. I mean, when I think about our conversation the last hour, which has flown by, the things that really stick with me, Janelle, are you know, pausing, you know, being present, that we aren't defined by, you know, what we do, but by what we commit to and who we are, kind of underlying that for everyone listening. I'm certain that you can take those three things to do: waterfall, mindful minutes, what's going well for you today. That's my positive question. Any of those lessons, I think, can be just game changers in our lives as leaders. So, I want to thank you for being among the leadership tonight. It's been truly my honor and pleasure to be with you. I want to thank all of you for joining us. And for anyone that you know in your network that is a leader that's going through their own leadership journey, have them tune in to Long Blue Leadership wherever they get their podcast, because these are not just about amazing things that our graduates are accomplishing, but about the journeys and moments and experiences that our grads have gone through that can translate into your life. So, thank you again for joining us on Longview Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99 She was here ’98 dominates, red in the house. We'll accept it this time. No, just kidding. But until next time, we'll see you again. 
 
KEYWORDS
Resilience, vision-driven leadership, overcoming adversity, growth mindset, mental toughness, choose your hard, purpose-driven service, values-based decision-making, leading through crisis, ethical responsibility, courage under pressure, human-centered leadership, empathy, compassion in command, modeling behavior, calm in the storm, stress management, burnout prevention, psychological safety, trust-building, recognition and appreciation, mindful leadership, presence, attention control, eliminating noise, focus and performance, harmonizing work and family, identity beyond the job, servant leadership, influence within your three-foot circle, creating opportunity, challenging the status quo, innovative problem-solving, perseverance, hope and optimism, leading by example, empowering others, developing mental skills, embracing discomfort, saying yes to challenge, long-term impact of leadership, legacy and storytelling.
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 

U.S. Air Force Academy boxing coach Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford ’97 shares how the sport shaped his approach to leadership, service and mentoring the next generation of cadets. A strong conversation on resilience and growth.
 
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COACH CLIFFORD'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
Leadership is about others, not you. Elevate the people around you—when your team wins, you win.
Iron sharpens iron. Seek (and create) hard reps, tougher opponents, and uncomfortable situations to build real capability.
Look for “dogs,” not resumes. Prioritize competitiveness, resilience, and willingness to get hit and keep going over pedigree.
Turn on the hot water. Know when it’s time to flip the switch from relaxed and joking to locked-in, all-business execution.
Take the punch, then execute. Composure after getting hit—physically or metaphorically—is the true test of a leader.
Accountability and care must coexist. You can deeply care for people and still enforce standards, discipline, and consequences.
Bloom where you’re planted. Be the best where you are before chasing the next opportunity; stop leading with the exit plan.
Don’t lead only with rank. Some of the strongest leaders on his team lead through work ethic, example, and quiet influence.
Use mentors; don’t go it alone. Pick up the phone, ask for help, and learn from those who’ve led through similar moments.
Family and support systems are force multipliers. A stable, supportive home front enables you to show up fully for the mission.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Intro: “Sometimes leadership means the mission stopped being about you” + Mark’s accolades
00:01:40 – From hoops to the ring: leaving basketball, discovering boxing, and Coach Weichers’ influence
00:03:55 – Finding “dogs”: how Mark recruits scrappy, resilient cadets and builds national champions
00:07:57 – Growing up competitive: family, academics-first father and rivalry with his brother
00:11:09 – Leadership from the ring: iron sharpening iron and elevating everyone on the team
00:14:30 – Warrior mindset: teaching cadets to take a punch, stay composed and execute a plan
00:19:00 – Riding the emotional highs and lows: coaching, winning, losing and not burning out
00:21:08 – Accountability with heart: tough call in Korea, stripes, and good order and discipline
00:24:36 – Competing together: peer squadron commanders, shared struggle and mutual support
00:28:05 – When you want to quit: advice Col. Clifford got, what he tells cadets now and “bloom where you’re planted”
00:32:16 – Quiet leaders and culture: cadets who lead through work ethic and example
00:37:23 – Daily leadership reps: mental prep, PE classes, influence in the athletic department
00:43:11 – Talk to young Col. Clifford: trust the process, shake off negativity and the power of family support
 
ABOUT
BIO
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford, a 1997 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy and former National Collegiate Boxing Association champion, is in his second season as head coach of the Air Force boxing program after leading the women’s team to its first NCBA national title in his debut season, highlighted by a program-record four individual champions and a sweep of the men’s and women’s NCBA Western Regional titles. A former team captain and three-time NCBA All-American as a cadet, Col. Clifford also served two stints as an assistant coach, contributing to four national team championships and 21 individual national champions. He retired from the Air Force as a lieutenant colonel after 20 years of service, including assignments as director of fuel operations for Air Force One, commander roles in Hawaii and South Korea, combat tours supporting Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom, and work on the Joint Staff at the Pentagon. Following his military career, Col. Clifford held leadership positions at Grand Canyon University and the DREAM Foundation, focusing on sports management education and mentorship opportunities for students. He earned a master’s degree from the University of Maryland Global Campus and a doctorate from the University of New Mexico.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS:
Guest, Coach Mark Clifford ’97  |  Host, Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Sometimes leadership means realizing the mission stopped being about you a long time ago. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Mark Clifford, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 0:14Thanks for having me.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:15Absolutely, you know, we could jump right in, but before I do, I have to just talk about this. I had to write this down to make sure I didn't miss it. Boxing team captain, obviously; three-time Wing Open champ; three-time regional champ, three-time National Collegiate Boxing Association All-American, and the national champion of the NCBA your senior year.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 0:33Yes, ma'am.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34I mean, that's just, and that's just as a cadet. Then you went on to serve 20 years in the Air Force as a logistics readiness officer, you know, you're commanding and you're leading squadrons. In addition to that, on the higher education side, assistant dean at Grand Canyon University in sports business.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 0:49Yes, yeah, ran the sport management program when I first got there, probably a year after I got there, just to get my feet wet with higher ed, and then was elevated to the assistant dean of the College of Business. And so it was, it was fun, it was amazing, it was very different from what you're used to in the military, because I tried to come in with a little bit of military mindset, but it’s a civilian institution, so you know, just a little bit different, just bringing myself there and seeing what happened.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:13Well, you know, I guess what it shows is that you're not afraid to jump in and do, you know, something new. And I think that's — we'll probably discover that in the conversation today. So, maybe where we can start is the fact that you are back at USAFA as the boxing coach. You're here now running and leading the program that shaped you.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 1:31Yes.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:32Let's talk about that.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 1:33Yes, let's talk about — I mean, I love the program. You know, I came into the Academy, went to the Prep School, on a five-year plan, like some of us that need a little extra help, little extra year, you know. I took my time and really understand that came in, I'm such a competitor. I was playing basketball at the Prep School, came in my freshman year, hoping to be on the basketball team, worked really hard, did all things the coaches asked me to do, still sat the bench, and so, like a lot of cadets, like every cadet, even our women now have to take boxing class, you know, as a mandatory class.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:04When did that start? What year? Do you remember?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 2:07I want to say 2017 is when the women started. It's always been instituted for our men. So my freshman year I did really well in the class, to the point where I had to box our assistant coach at the time, Ray Carter, for my GR, my test.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:22Did you get an A?
Col. Mark Clifford 2:23I got an A. But it hurt.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:26For him?
Col. Mark Clifford 2:27Heck no! He was the one punching me. He busted me up pretty good, but I still got the A in the class, and coaches — the same system I use today — is trying to find cadets in boxing class that are competitors that are looking to do more than just be either a cadet or on the team that they're on or ride a bench. I got tired of riding the bench behind a couple of folks until sophomore year, coach came and said, “Hey, you still interested in boxing?” I quit basketball, went to boxing and the rest is history.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:58You didn't look back at all.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 2:59No, you know it's hard to look back because it's shaped — I think we all kind of think back to our cadet years. I know I do sometimes, and kind of reminisce about, “What if?” I remember walking across the street one time, and my brother was ahead of me in ’90s — Class of ’96 — on the football team, and I was walking across the street as a freshman to basketball practice and ran across Coach Fisher DeBerry. “Hey, Clifford, will you come play football with me?” And so, you always think about opportunities that kind of cross your path, and I think about what would have happened if I would have done something different. I don't know if this story would be as successful as it is, based off of what I've learned in boxing and where I am today. And so, I'm very thankful for the program. I'm thankful for Coach Eddie Weichers, who shaped me, was a father figure for us when we were here. And you know, it's tough being a cadet, so you got to have allies and friends and people and mentors, and he was definitely one for me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:55Well, I'd love to know, you know — he saw you in class and discovered that talent. How are you finding potential nowadays in the cadets for the program? Because you just happened to have the women who defended a national champion, won it. So, two years now have been the NCBA national champs.Col. Mark Clifford 4:15I think it's a couple of things I look for. One is, how scrappy are you? I think it was easy at Grand Canyon University to find, you know, the era of COVID, and the resiliency wasn't quite the same as what I remembered when I was here as assistant coach, and as a captain and as a major, as well. The cadets are different, the mentality is different, and so kind of make it simple, I'm looking for dogs, I'm looking for cadets that a) are excited to fight, are not afraid to box, aren't afraid to get hit, love the intensity of the sport, and I can shape that, and you know, the potential piece of that is, can they throw a pretty good punch, and can they take a punch, and they're not, you know, they're not jumping out of the ring with that. That kind of translates into what we're looking for with all of our officers and all officer candidates, is making sure that they can stay there and take a punch, collect themselves, and then go back and execute, right? And so that's what I'm looking for, and I've tried to find those in classes, and you know, a lot of times it's a lot of the athletes.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:21Right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 5:22Because they're recruited here for other reasons, well, and other…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:24Other sports.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 5:25Other sports, or whatever, and they want to be competitive, and as a freshman and a sophomore. It's tough, because you got juniors and seniors who have experience on the team. They're out there performing, and you're sitting on the bench, well, you know, I get you in the sport where you don’t have to sit the bench.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:43That's right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 5:44It's top person wins.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:45So when I think about the team that you formulate and you grow, and they continue to hone in our craft, is it always the athletes that you kind of, that maybe have been benchwarmers, or have you found the diamonds in the rough that maybe have never fought in their lives, and never — that kind of surprise you, that have risen to the top?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 6:04You know, there are a lot of diamonds in the rough, there are a lot of, but back to what, there's a lot of cadets that come here that aren't necessarily on a divisional, we're lucky because we have 25% of our population at the Academy are divisional athletes. But there are so many other young cadets that are just as competitive, just as athletic, and looking for something else, and how do you give them something, right? And when they get to come to the Wing Open and see their classmates in the center of Clune Arena, and that thing is filled with all the rest of the Cadet Wing.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:37Yes, and grads and the community.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 6:39And the community. They put the floor seats right there, you can sit ringside, it's an amazing thing. How do I be a part of it? And my philosophy is simple: If you enter the Wing Open and you win, then you're the person that represents this for regions and nationals. There's no favoritism, because I quote, unquote, recruited Naviere as a freshman. Now she's a senior, well, the senior gets her butt whooped, I'm taking a freshman. And so it's a very fair system, and so you find those diamonds in the rough. I'll give you one — two-time national champ. She's our team captain this year, Elise Bell. I don't think she's ever fought in her life.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:16Wow.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 7:16When I walked in the gym last year, my first year, I just noticed her work ethic. How do you just pour into something like that and refine that in the gym to become a national champ. And last year — I just love to tell her story, because last year I believe in regionals and nationals, every first round she lost 5-0 to the judges. She was losing, and she won every bout.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:42Interesting.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 7:43So it's just — you find those, and I'm hoping to find more of those cadets that just have that same energy, that resilience, that toughness and courage, really, and willingness to do what we ask you to do.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:58So, were you like that growing up? Were you someone that had this mindset of, you know, a work ethic and, you know, scrappy, you know, before even getting into boxing? Were you like that as a kid?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 8:09I was just a competitor, and that's my father, that's my mother, that's my grandmother, my father's side, who was very — everything had to be put into place. My father was born in 1929 in Washington, D.C., went to Howard University, ROTC post-Tuskegee, and entered the Air Force through ROTC in 1949.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:41Wow.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 8:42So his thing was academics, always.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:45Yes.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 8:45But I had a brother who was a year ahead of me, and it was academics for both of us. But how do you best the guy that's right next to you? Like, it was always just — my brother's name is Larry. That's what Larry and I always did, whether it was girls or sports, school, right? Yeah, it was always
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:02You drove each other.
Col. Mark Clifford 9:03We drove each other, and it's just — it was amazing. You don't realize that until you're older, and so you go, “Yeah, that's what that did.” And so I think I was always just, 1) I was always a competitor, like I wasn't always the best, but I'd like to try to strive to be, and so that was just kind of how I was shaped.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22So was your dad very excited when you — you were recruited to the Academy, is that correct?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 9:28My dad kind of wanted me to go — more so than maybe I wanted to go.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34When did you realize, like — because obviously you were on the five-year plan, right? So I think you had a couple of times to make a decision, like, “I’m good,” but you stayed. So when was it that it really connected with you that this is where I want to be, and I want to stay.
Col. Mark Clifford 9:47Probably after my sophomore year.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:50OK.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 9:50Yeah, because my first three years, like, I wanted to play basketball so bad. I was trying to recruit myself. This is when you had to go send out your videotape. You know what I’m saying. You’re there with me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:01Yes, yes, paper. Email's not the thing back then. All paper.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 10:05All paper. I’m trying to send videotapes out. Spring break at the Prep School, I think I went to Cal Riverside and tried to meet with the coach and drop off my tape. That's how bad I wanted to play basketball, right, and then I found success in boxing, and it was, I think, why go anywhere else? You start to realize, you get over, like, you're gonna have a job when you graduate. I don't have to look for a job, I don't have to go out there and struggle. I'm gonna get what I want to do out of the military, and it's gonna be a five-year thing for me, and then I'm out, right? And so I think that's what it was. I think it was my sophomore year, and I was going, my grades are terrible. I could say that now. It was — but no one's ever asked me for my GPA. I still was able to get a doctorate. Like, there's things that happen in your life that you'll still be able to achieve success, even though you weren't as great at it before. And so, yeah, I think it was just the realization of, “I could do this.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:09So in that journey of, you know, wanting to play basketball so bad, finding a space and a place that really you started to hone in on yourself in boxing, and then, you know, went into the Air Force, you were leading. What have you found out about yourself in a leadership perspective through those different situations, whether you ended up not playing basketball or something that went really well for you, like national champ?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 11:35I think just overall leadership was the ability for me to impact others to be successful, and I think that's what I took out of boxing, because it is an individual sport, but it's very team-oriented. We don't put banners on the wall that say “national champion” without a team mentality to make sure that our teammate, left and right of us, are also excelling. And so, in a small sport like boxing, at a time where I boxed, there was 12 weight classes, but you're boxing the guy above a weight and below a weight, because you're trying to make that person better, iron sharpens iron.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:10Right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 12:10I also had, I was a 172-, 175-pounder boxing the heavyweight, because in my mind was no one's gonna hit me as hard as this guy is gonna hit me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:19That's right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 12:20And so if I can stand and get and last with this guy, I can last with anybody in college boxing. And that flowed for me into the military of — and part of my philosophy was how do I elevate everybody else, because I realized here at the Academy it's not about us, right? We're in the people business to make sure people around us are elevated, have the things that they need, resources they need to make sure that they're doing the job the best of their ability. Because then the unit does better as a team. The wing does better as a team. It's not about us individually. And so I think for me being able to translate that out of boxing into my Air Force career was part of what shaped me as a leader to make myself successful.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:02Did you find yourself seeing if anyone could take a punch from you in your Air Force uniform, or how did you do that?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 13:10Well, you know, I punch my words when I know you can't put your hands on people.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:16Of course.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 13:19You know, back in the early days, you know, I think the chief excused me from a meeting, and the meeting was back behind the fuel watershed. I can't remember…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:32Fair enough.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 13:33Some wall-to-wall training that was going on with other individuals, but hey, chief said it was good. Roger that chief.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:40That's hilarious.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 13:41Yeah, no, you know, you don't put your hands on people. I used to have to tell people, “Don't let my smile fool you,” you know. I like to have a good time, I enjoy myself, I enjoy the people that I'm around. Also, I know our job is very serious, and I was very serious about our job. And so, part of my leadership philosophy was always — my dad's thing was the Golden Rule, you know, treat people the way that you want to be treated. And I always — there's some things here at the Academy that I didn't love, so I took away from, “I'm not going to be that type of person,” into accountability, holding people accountable, myself included. And so even at the Academy, as a knucklehead cadet, I did goofy stuff. I'd be the first one to say, yeah, I take my lumps, march my tours, take my Form 10, do what you need to do, but just survive the place and learn from it, and it shapes you out as a leader.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:31Absolutely. You know, I'm curious, because I think about — you just said, “I like to have fun,” and you know, “but don't let my smile fool you.” You know, when you think about boxing and the mentality you have to have to literally stand across from somebody and hit someone, or take a punch, or you know, be hit back. How do you train that kind of mindset? Because I have to think it parallels a lot with the fact that we are developing warfighters. You know, how do you train that?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 14:57Yeah, you know, that's kind of the bottom line of the boxing class. It's not about finding championship boxers. The boxing class is about exactly what you just outlined. It's how do you, as an individual, put a strategy and plan together knowing that you have an adversary across the ring that's going to hurt you. Like, the object of the game is to punch you. Pros is more so to hurt you. College boxing, amateurs, more to score more points than you. Bottom line, they'll hurt you, and that mentality of how do you compose yourself? Do the things that we asked you to do: a) defend yourself, b) have an offensive plan, even if you're losing, how do you compose yourself? Right, part of that warrior spirit is making sure that we always have that mindset of how we're going to achieve and beat our adversaries, and I think that's the bottom line of the boxing class. It's just, how do we do that? So, the mindset is exactly that, is you know you're gonna get punched, but can you punch that person when they punch you? Can you put some other things in place that I gave you tools — that I gave you, head movement, defensive movement — to take those punches away, right? From a strategic standpoint, and then be offensive, and then score your points.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:11Right.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 16:11And so that's the mentality we try to have boxers to make sure that this is a sport where you're gonna get hit. Once you get past that hurdle, it's good, right? It's how you work on all these other skill sets that make you better than your opponent. And if the other person's just as skilled as you are, what's the edge that we get? And I think that's part of our mental preparation that we do as well as our physical preparation.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:34So I think about you shaping that for the team, both the men and women. How was that shaped for you? Was that your coach at the time, Eddie Weichers? Was that Wiechers? Was that someone in your family? Who were those mentors in your life?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 16:45For me, it was Eddie Weichers and Ray Carter. Ray Carter was an enlisted assistant coach, and he was four-time, I think, All-Air Force heavyweight champ. Those two were instrumental for me, especially during my career times, before my time as a boxer, because I would work hard, work out a lot with Coach Carter, because the same mentality helped with a heavyweight. If this big joker can hit me, I can take the punch… He's also going to teach me some things. I mean, Coach Weichers was the same. It was the mental piece that his thing was knowing to turn on the hot water, and it was because I would have a good time, enjoy practice, have fun with the guys, but when you step in that ring, turn the hot water on, it's all about business. So, then, when you step out, turn it back on to cold, go back to goofing off and doing things that you do, but you get in there, it's all about business. And so, how do you train your mind to go, like, man, “I gotta go to war right now?” And it was, you know, I had a preparation before I got to the ring, and some things that I did that helped me mentally prepare before I jumped in there, but…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:52What did you do?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 17:53You know, again, it was the Walkman CD Walkman, the CD Walkman. And I couldn't jump around too much because it was Skip. Yeah, the CB was skip had the little baby headphones had my little do rag on and I would just zone out on some music, I would zone out on music until it was time for me to get up and do my physical warm up with some jumping some rope shadow boxing and maybe little hand mitts with the coach before I jumped in the ring, but OK, yeah, it was a, you know, I couldn't jump around too much. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:25It would skip, that's true. Now they just have — they don't have to have anything connected, just put in their ears.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 18:30I'm jealous about it, to be honest.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:35So I imagine when you're coaching, and I'm saying I imagine because I've not coached ever to this level. I coach my son's little league basketball team, but which is a whole different level of coaching, but what I find curious is, have you ever found yourself in the feeling of, because you know how it felt when you win, when you lose, and when you watch your cadets going through that, how does that affect you as a coach?Col. Mark Clifford 19:01Yes, I'm learning to not, I'm learning to not ride the emotion like they do, but I definitely did my first year, I think, as an assistant coach. So, I was assistant coach with Coach Wishers five years total as active duty officer, and that was different because I was on the sideline, he was the main guy, I was a support guy, but when you're the head guy, you're the one that gives the kids advice, giving them the strategy, and then really I felt it at nationals, especially when we started to win in with our women, we our first female won in the first half of the day, a freshman, I don't know if she was expected to win. She didn't expect to win, but in our hearts, in our minds, we knew. And then this is the motion, because I know how hard they work and what it takes to get your hand raised, because I came up short my first two years when I'm the guy standing with my hands down, the other guy's hand is raised, and then getting my hand raised my senior year was the most amazing feeling. I rode that same emotion when we lost, when we won, and I was worn out and tired. So I'm trying to train myself not to try to ride that emotion, but it's hard, like you know. I want to be in there with them, and I feel the same things that they feel, because I went through that same process they went through. And so it's interesting dynamic because I'm trying to peel myself away from mine. I just haven't detached yet. I think I'm still emotionally and mentally driven by what happens with our cadets, and it's a weird feeling.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:36I imagine as a leader that's probably a common challenge you have because you care so deeply about your team, like family, that you do get emotional, right, and that might even be one of the sharpest knives in your, in your kit. It's just, you know, how you employ it, I guess.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 20:52Yeah, you know, that reminds me of a really tough situation when I was a commander in Korea. Back to, had to hold somebody accountable with that person. Part of the discipline action was taking a strike, right, blah blah blah, the things that happened for something negative, right, but he's such a good person, and it was a first, first mistake, but it was a big one, and what that led to was a person dropping rank, but then hitting higher tenure, and couldn't test for the next strike, and so I really struggled with that, and had really tough conversations with not only the group chief, but my commander, right, and my chief, my first sergeant. Is this really the right thing for this individual? I think ultimately for good organ discipline. Yes, I think emotionally because it was a small unit. We were in Korea, his, he had his wife there, I had my family there, right? So they became friends, close, right, close enough, because such a small group, and that's the type of organization that I like to have, because I think if it's you, almost play that disappointment role or daddy role, or whatever, however you want to characterize it, that leadership style, but it was, man, you really got to depend on your brother or sister, you let that person down, and you let us all down. Yes, and so that's part of my leadership style, especially in Korea. I took over for a commander that was let go and fired, and so there was a whole cultural change I had to do, so that was when the “don't let the smile full you” happened, right? And you just had to make sure that you held people accountable. That was one of the tough ones where emotionally you're going, "Man, am I making the right call?” Organizationally, absolutely. Personally, for that individual, it was tough. It was tough.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:36How did those moments stretch you as a leader? I find that fascinating, because you do. You have such a warm and, you know, fun personality about you. I mean, I think when you think about command and the decisions you've had to make at different times, both in the ring, out of the ring, in uniform, et cetera. How did you grow as a leader?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 22:53I think we all grow every day. I think, for me, I lean a lot on my mentors. I'm not afraid to ask for help, right? I learned that early in my career, that it took me a while, because I was in the way, but it took me a while to understand that I can pick up the phone and ask somebody for help, and they're going to help you, because, as an organization, our Air Force, our Space Force is all about making sure people are successful. We don't set people up for failure. Why? Because if one individual fails, yeah. So I think for me making those tough calls was was challenging, because because of my leadership style. I think it was, I want people to get along, I want our team to be meet the standard of excellence, if not exceeded. I want us to be always on that front edge, because I'm a competitor. Yes, I want to be the best, but also that comes with accountability and tough decisions. And I think when you have to be in the moment, make some of those tough decisions, that's you just have to go back and reflect. You have to lean on people that do the same thing. I had a great group of fellow squadron commanders at my first command in Hawaii, that's a really terrible basis to go to, that's why I stayed there for 20, that's why I stayed there for 20. The plan was five. Oh, yes, yeah, 20 happened because I had some great people around me, and I, and the bases weren't bad either, and so my family loved it, and we saw some rough assignments, but it ended up being great, but I can lean on my fellow squadron commanders if I had some enough time. But it was just a bitch session, or if it was a leadership lesson. Most of us were about the same year group, age group. I think one or two of the commanders was a year or two ahead of me, but it was just — we weren't competing with each other. We were making sure we were all competing together and being successful together.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:53I think about that theme of being a competitor, and I remember you telling me about your brother and your dad. So, has there been a continued, you know, competition, and how you guys have done in your, in your careers and in life, or have you leaned back to your dad, like, “Hey, Dad, so how do you go about this?”
 
Col. Mark Clifford 25:09No, you know, we unfortunately lost my dad a couple years ago.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:13Oh, I’m sorry.
Col. Mark Clifford 25:13No, it's OK; 94 years of an amazing life. I found some old pictures of him and Chappie James, which is pretty — talk about history and legacy. But no, I think my brother — I found out — so, my brother left after his sophomore year. He hadn't finished the Academy. He stuck around here another year, so my sophomore year, and I really came to find out, although we competed against each other our entire lives, he was my No. 1 fan, and I didn’t even know it. It was like — he would tell me stories of, I think, my first Wing Open, maybe my second Wing Open — my first Wing Open sophomore year, that he, for the first time, said some cuss words next to my dad because they were in the stands, because he was cheering for me, and it was just funny to hear, like, we're grown-ups, but you can't cuss in front of my dad. You don’t say those things. He was like, “Oh no, Dad's gonna get me.” But no, I think since then it's been a really supportive relationship, and like anything that I do, he'll call me as soon as we're competing anywhere as a coach now, ask how we did, how the cadets did, he said he's proud of me, I'm proud of him too, and he's doing real estate in Southern California with his wife and his family. So it was weird to see that, or hear that from him, because it was always like…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:31Yeah, you were always like mmmm mmmm. Looking over your shoulders.
Col. Mark Clifford 26:35Yeah, like who’s going to get who? But it was awesome. It was kind of cool.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:38I love that, and I'm just thinking, you know, I'm sorry to hear of your dad passing, but I'm sure throughout those years you had many calls to him about, you know, some of those decisions you had to make in uniform, and I'm sure he was extremely proud of you making it a career.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 26:51Yeah, yeah, I think he also was surprised I lasted as long as I did, just because I was so against it early on in my career. But no, I've been super proud, and it was always good to come home and just kind of share some stories with him, and he would reflect back on his stories, and he was a fighter pilot, and so just some of his fighter-pilot stories, and you know, the things that shaped me — talk about moments in your career and moments that shaped his career. It was just — it’s just cool to have somebody like that in a different era that can share the different challenges, but also the same.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:31That's a good point. Yeah.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 27:32I think that's what's interesting with the military, like, and coming back to the Academy is a perfect example. Like, there's challenges that we have, they're kind of the same that we've had, probably 15 years ago when I was here.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:45Like a cycle.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 27:46It’s a cycle. Yeah. So it's like now you have new leaders, how do they work through these different challenges differently than we did before? Not that we need to repeat history, but at the same time, you know what I'm saying, it just becomes a cyclical thing, that was how do we work.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:03How do we navigate that? Yeah.
Col. Mark Clifford 28:05The same stuff, yeah.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:06I want to go back to something you said, and I think it probably plays into some of the cadets that you work with, and or help to coach. You talked about how you weren't sure you wanted to go to the Academy, and staying, you know. The idea of quitting is where I'm really kind of going. What advice have you received to help you not quit, or to kind of push through when you wanted to quit? And have you seen that with cadets, and how are you navigating that?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 28:29Yes, and yes. I think the best advice I received when I was thinking about quitting was, “Just really ask yourself why, what's the purpose, and then where you're going to go, like what's the plan?” And that's what was one of my dad's themes was, especially when I got out, was looking to navigate civilian jobs, right, but you don't leave something unless you got something else in your other hand. And so I was like, “How do you really focus in on being the best at where you're at, right, before you even think about stepping somewhere else?” And I had to reflect on that, especially as a cadet, was I really being the best at where I was as a freshman? Sophomore, I could tell you no, because I wanted so many other things, and it wasn't had anything to do with the Academy, had nothing to do with the Academy, but you know…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:21You were focused on basketball…
 
Col. Mark Clifford 29:23Focused on other things until I could really be the best at all the things, and it's a balance here at the Academy — academically, militarily, athletically. I wanted to be the best athletically. How do I go win a national championship as the boxer? And so I found out that you've got to prioritize, which is… Right? We all had to do that. We all have to do that in our lives today. And so my priority was boxing, because I wanted to be great at athletics; academics, because I knew I can't get out of this place unless academics met the standard.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:01And you couldn’t box here…
 
Col. Mark Clifford 30:03And I couldn’t do that without the academics. My dad saying, like, “You don't do anything else unless your academics are where they need to be.” And lastly — it was OK for me militarily. I can make the military stuff work. It wasn't my party. Maybe I should have bowed a little bit more. So I share that with our cadets. Is how do you balance those things that want to make you successful? The one thing I tell the cadets now is, because I've been in the civilian world, it's tough. Like, if you leave here, you got to navigate A, go get a degree, and then B, trying to find a job which meets your standard and the standard of living that you want to have, it's going to be difficult. It's not — and so it's still a cadet's choice. Yes, and we've talked to them about, like, all right, make sure you put things in place to make yourself successful. But I try to give them same advice. I said, “There's no other place outside of the three military academies where you’re going to go through a really tough time, you're going to have really awesome friends, you're gonna have a great experience, and, oh, by the way, you have a job, and you graduate — with free medical and dental, like that stuff's not cheap. Yeah, so I, you know, I think I share those things with the cadets, especially when they talk about leaving. And then I like to share — I try not to go back to, “Oh, back in my day” with that.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:19Because our day was a long time ago.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 31:21Now you didn’t have to say it out loud. I think we know that, but it's true, you know, it's there are still some challenges out there, but they have to navigate the waters, and there's some things that they do differently now at the Academy that we did when we were at the Academy, but this is a really cool place. It's a great place to be from. It's a great place to put on a resume when you decide to get out of the military after your obligation. It's a great place because they're gonna give you a job and occupation. You get to fly jets if that's what you want to do. There's so many opportunities here that the cadets have.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:59Yes.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 31:59And I just overload them with that, because I think it is an amazing place. And the reason why I come back to it, because I think so highly of what it's done for me and shaped me. How can I do that for others and mentor others to make sure that they have a similar experience, but a successful one, no matter what their story is.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:17Can you share an example of a cadet that surprised you from a leadership perspective, because of their work with you and their time in the ring.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 32:25Well, it's hard. So I'm only in my second year. I've got a couple of seniors this year. Elise Bell is one of them. Her fiancé, Kamari Jackson, is a cadet I met when I was here. He was starting his junior year, he's coming off a neck injury, and I challenged him because he's hanging around the gym. I didn't know why. Now I know why. I thought it was boxing, it wasn't. It was Elise, but I'm good with that, you know. I would whisper in Elise's ear, try to get him back, because he was really good as a freshman. Then got hurt, but he's another young man that's just took leadership by the horn. Came in back this year, I challenged him to be at a certain weight. He said, “Coach, I'm coming back, I want to win it. I made weight.” I didn't think he was going to make the weight his first semester, fall semester. He was a squadron commander, plate is full but still made it down. Was one of those — he wasn't our team captain, but he was a team captain.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:26Yes.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 33:27It was just one of those…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:28…leading without rank or title.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 33:30You didn't need it, yeah, but he just had that. He has an aura. I wouldn't say he surprised me. I just think it was just one of those success stories where you're going, man. I love to have a team like this that just — and we do. They lead in their own way. We've got some quiet ones; I've got some vocal ones. I've got ones — our senior this year, our heavyweight, the one that won the Wing Open, he did it with his work ethic. Elise Bell, she leads with her work ethic. There are different ways of leading in the gym, and I try to harness that, and then elevate those that are doing it, making sure the team sees what they're doing. There's a young lady, she's very quiet, prior enlisted two-time national champ now. She's won three Wing Opens, she's gonna probably get her fourth as a senior, she's gonna be our team captain this year, because she's quiet, but it brings out her show, forces her to use her voice a little bit more, because she does it quietly with her work ethic in the corner. But you all see her because she's always in the ring and she's always working. So, I wouldn't say they surprised me just yet. I haven't had so many surprises just yet, but I've had some that has solidified my resolve in why I came back because they understand where they're going, they're learning what leadership is, because you don't always have to vocally stand on the pedestal and be the person on top to be a leader, and I love that piece of this.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:56So, I'm sure maybe this is a silly question, but obviously you have been assistant coach in the past. What made you come back as head coach?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 35:03It's a silly question, Naviere. These cadets — no, this place is special. I love the Athletic Department. I mean, back to what it's done for me: I had the opportunity to come back as a young captain, working in the athletic department, was able to get a doctorate degree out of this place, was able to come back again and be around the cadets to learn more from Coach Eddie Weichers. And I think all of those parts and pieces helped develop me, because it put me in positions where I was able to grab jobs and be in positions to be successful. I had no business picking up a squadron command the second time I was here, but I was able to pick up the squadron command, because I had people pulling for me, pushing for me, and that's what you go back to, like you said before, what helped shape you, and that it's just the people around here that help shape me. And how do I come back and give back to an institution, to a department that really shaped me as an individual? And that's what I'm doing. I think I come back because it's — I want to see the cadets who struggled like me, and I find them in class too, that are debating whether they want to be or not, looking for something else to be a part of, and I always invite them to be part of the boxing family, because I know what boxing did for me and others who went through this program that were competitive, that couldn't make another team, or wasn't on a different team that wanted to show their skill that wanted to balance something from the academic side, because that is so stressful. Punching something is very stress relieving. There's something about it — especially if I can punch something in the face in front of other people and not get in trouble — I was doing it. And so I think being able to come back and give that opportunity to other cadets and then watch them flourish with it and grow with it, I think is why I'm back. And so I'm thankful for the athletic department. I'm thankful for the Academy. So, how do I pay it forward in my way, paying it forward? This is my way of paying it forward.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:02I love that. Well, I want to ask you something that we ask our guests on this, because it's really about how you continue to hone your skills as a leader through all the journeys, right? In uniform, out of uniform, in the private sector, higher education, etc. What is something you do every day to be better as a leader?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 37:23Well, you know, I think is internally, “How do I have an impact,” as a head coach in the athletic department, and I'm not an NCAA sport like some of our other coaches. How do I impact people around me in my sphere of influence? It's very different now when you're an officer, when you're a commander, you have entire unit that you have impact on. Mine are smaller. One, it's internally with my team, is how do I lead and impact my team, and so I want to make sure that I'm always prepared to support our cadets through practice, having a plan for them so they know when they walk in the door what we're supposed to do. Because I think that's important from a discipline standpoint of knowing and understanding what I have to do when I get to the gym, and what my end goal is. And I always come in for that mentally prepared, and then mentally preparing them for the rest of the season, because we have a long season. And then I always think about my series of influence. I'm in the athletic department on the physical education side. How do I make sure I am prepared for the other cadets in classes that aren't on the team? Make sure they have a positive experience in PE class, but also I make sure they know that I'm a grad. I make sure that they know I'm a high-level guy, because I think there's value in that when they can always ask questions that are driven towards operational air force, not necessarily about this particular class. So I make sure I'm prepared for those cadets, and then how do I then allow myself to be available for the rest of the department, not only the physical education department, but our athletic directors, and making sure that I'm a resource. I've been here before, right? I understand something. I may not have all the answers, but I'm willing to help the support. I'm always preparing myself daily for the cadets and the staff and the folks around me that my sphere of influence has, at least the best part of me every time I can work. And so I think daily for me it's a mental preparation, but also, you know, prepping for the day of the day of, from a leadership perspective, because my leadership role is very different now than what it was when you're active duty, when you're sitting at Grand Canyon University as a dean or assistant dean, right? Your influence is very different.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:40So mentally you prepare yourself. What does that look like as far as like activity, right? So, are you taking care of yourself physically, so that you have the capacity to do more? Are you — I'm just curious, like, what does that look like when you say you're preparing yourself?Col. Mark Clifford 39:56I do a couple of things. I think in the morning when I get up, I have a cup of coffee, and we typically — my wife and I typically watch the news together. It is thinking about the impacts of what happens in our world, how that impacts our Academy. I don't think — there's very little ripple effect that gets to the cadet, but also understanding why what's happening in our world is important to a cadet. I always try to prepare myself for those conversations, just in case they come up, and they have come up in classes sometimes. But I just give my perspective more so. Physically, I hit the gym, I work in a gym, so my wife says I have no excuse, at least you better be in a gym using equipment. I physically do that, and then I try to make sure I walk through our gym and put pieces together, equipment together, and make sure the equipment's in place and ready for our cadets, and sometimes I box and stuff. I gotta stay sharp.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:01I was gonna ask, you know, how that you did with what was his name, the assistant coach at the time, Ray…
 
Col. Mark Clifford 41:06Ray Carter.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:07Yes, are you ever across in the ring with someone; with a cadet?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 41:12My first year, I did. My last year, I let the young captains and majors do that. I realized that my mind will say do something — move out the way. I don't move out the way as quick as I used to, but I think I do.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:27Then you feel that you didn’t.
Col. Mark Clifford 41:12Exactly. I didn’t. Never let the cadets know they got you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:33That's funny. All right, I want to ask you one more question. What's something, if you could have a conversation with young Mark as a cadet today, what would you tell yourself?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 41:44I think the one thing I would tell myself is, trust the process, be the best that you can be, where you are, and where you're playing it, and do that to the best of your ability, and then shake off the negativity and the nonsense. I had some great friends here, but also some friends that didn't want to be here either, and so you feed off that negativity. I think that got into who I was, especially as a young cadet, because some of that negativity that probably kept me from being my best in certain areas, especially academically, especially militarily, because I think if I were able to do that, maybe my outcome probably would have been on the same trajectory, but also it would have been more positive experience,
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:27Less painful for sure.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 42:29Yeah, not chasing other things, trying to get your tape out, go recruit somewhere else. You're happy where you are, you're doing the best that you can, and it's going to be challenging, tough. And understand that you're going to take some losses, that's what this place is about. It's not always going to be a win, because in life, it's not always a win. And if you can bounce back from a loss, at some point it took me two years, in that third year, I bounced back in the loss to get that W, life becomes very, very easy. Yeah, you kind of figured out, so that's what I tell myself to prepare myself a little better.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:05No, that's excellent. What's something that we didn't talk about today that you would really like to make sure that we share?
 
Col. Mark Clifford 43:11I think we kind of talked about it, family, my family, my wife's been my rock for almost 30 years, we’re on 29 this year, we're going on 30. We've got two boys that say they don't want to be in the military, I don't want to move. My oldest son is not in the military, he's moved three times since he graduated college two years ago. And then the youngest one, who didn't want to do it, would join officer training school in July.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:34Congratulations!
 
Col. Mark Clifford 43:35Yeah, super-proud. He's taking an eight-week route, not the five-year route. So, I don't know if he's smarter, I don't know how to play that one, but you know, I can't say enough about making sure that your family supports what you do. I could not have been as successful or do the things that I was able to do in the Air Force without my wife Elise and my two boys, Caleb and Jaden, without their support, because there were some tough times when you're deployed and you're gone and you just need that rock to make sure that the household is good, so you focus on your job while you're gone and be home in your home, and she made sure that we did that when we had opportunities, and she also, no matter where we went, made sure it was a home, and so I'm thankful for that, because the boys always had home versus places that we had to move to, right, and like you said, we have some good ones, thankfully.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:29Well, it sounds like you also have translated that, bringing that that Elise has brought to your family, to your boxing family. I mean, I think when cadets are there, they're home away, this is home away from home, right? And maybe not all of them have father figures or leaders in their lives, and it sounds like you kind of taken that mantle, placed it right there.
 
Col. Mark Clifford 44:47I tried, I tried. You know, we talked about this before we started, but I'm gonna push them hard. Make sure that they exceed that level of physicality and mentality that they think they can, because they will exceed it and be able to perform when it's time to perform. And I love it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:07Well, Mark, this has been amazing — Coach Clifford, I mean. What you're doing at the program, I mean, you started with you, right, embedded in you, and now you're taking it to the next level. What I learned today in your leadership lessons are those things that you've battled with in the ring, you're bringing out in life, whether in uniform, out of uniform, and you're not only sharing it with those that have been directly on your team, but those that may join your team. You know, we just talked about those basic cadets. So, what I really appreciate about you is you're willing to be there in that with them, celebrating their wins and helping them navigate those losses. So, thanks for being an incredible leader, and thanks for being on Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for investing your time, and for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. I encourage you to share this episode with others who are on their own leadership journey. You can find this and all our conversations wherever you get your podcasts, or at longblueleadership.org. Until next time, I'm Naviere Walkewicz.
 
KEYWORDSLeadership development, servant leadership, transformational leadership, competitive mindset, resilience, mental toughness, accountability, team culture, coaching and mentoring, leading by example, emotional intelligence, authenticity, character development, warrior ethos, growth mindset, discipline, perseverance, decision-making, ethical leadership, influencing without authority, role modeling, performance under pressure, purpose-driven leadership, mentorship, building trust, developing potential, talent identification, culture change, officer development, military leadership, sports leadership, motivation, intrinsic motivation, ownership, responsibility, humility, continuous improvement, self-reflection, family support, work-life integration, peer influence, values-based leadership, strategic thinking, adaptability, handling failure, bouncing back from setbacks, high standards, excellence, preparation, focus, commitment, dedication.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 

Leadership isn’t about perfection — it’s about accountability, especially when things don’t go as planned.
SUMMARY
From lessons learned as a cadet to leading her teams through complex challenges, Col. (Ret.) Erin Staine-Pyne ’98 reflects on how transparency, empathy and trust define strong leadership in uncertain moments.
 
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ERIN STAINE-PYNE'S TOP LEADERSHIP LESSONS AND TAKEAWAYS 
Own your mistakes quickly and fully. Col. Staine-Pyne’s cadet party incident shows the power of taking responsibility and using failure as a positive turning point.
Forgive fast — others and yourself. Col. Staine-Pyne highlights forgiving herself and the freshman who reported the incident as essential to moving forward productively instead of getting stuck in blame or resentment. Lead with transparency, especially in crisis. Both as a cadet and as a wing commander during COVID, she emphasized open communication.
Be visibly human and vulnerable. Sharing personal context built trust and showed airmen she understood their fears, not just the mission. Practice empathy as a core leadership “superpower.” Col. Staine-Pyne stresses learning to truly understand people’s perspectives and lives — not just knowing their names and roles — and then leading with that understanding in mind.
Use your team; leadership is not a solo sport. From wing commander “tiger teams” to USAF Weapons School class dynamics, Col. Staine-Pyne consistently relied on senior enlisted leaders, peers, planners and classmates instead of trying to solve everything alone.
Balance mission and people with nuance, not slogans. During COVID and high-tempo ops, she wrestled with protecting a “no-fail” mission while also protecting health and morale and adjusting policies and workloads rather than defaulting to one extreme.
Don’t self-limit; say yes to stretch opportunities. Col. Staine-Pyne nearly ruled herself out of Weapons School but trusted her leaders’ belief in her and stepped into being the first woman in the school’s C‑130 program — and graduated at the top of her class. Her advice: Apply and let others say no.
Integrate work and family intentionally at critical career peaks. Instead of chasing perfect “balance,” Col. Staine-Pyne treats career and family as waves: Lean into work during when needed but consciously bring along family and use leave to truly refresh.
See failure as a leadership classroom, not a verdict. From the cadet party incident to the week‑to‑week swings in Weapons School performance, Col. Staine-Pyne views setbacks as information and training for better leadership, not as permanent labels.
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:02 – Introducing Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 00:00:49 – Cadet Party Incident: A Costly Mistake 00:02:59 – Owning Failure & Learning to Forgive 00:04:49 – Transparency, Reputation and the Cadet Wing 00:06:59 – Early Aspirations & Family Influences 00:08:25 – Becoming a Wing Commander Right Before COVID 00:10:13 – Leading Through a Pandemic & Tough, Unpopular Decisions 00:15:02 – Personal Impact of Command During COVID 00:17:01 – Mentors, Humility & Weapons School Opportunity 00:20:59 – Inside Weapons School: Pressure, Teamwork & Distinction 00:25:44 – Empathy, Tempo and the People‑Mission Balance 00:29:10 – Work–Life Waves, Legacy and Advice to Young Leaders
ABOUT COL. ERIN STAINE-PYNE ’98
BIO
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne, U.S. Air Force Academy Class of 1998, is a career mobility aviator and proven senior leader with more than 3,500 flight hours in C-17 and C-130 aircraft, former wing commander, and now general manager of mobility at Merlin Labs. Inspired early by a love of aviation and a father who graduated from West Point, she pursued her dream of flying through the Academy and went on to become an aircraft commander, instructor and, ultimately, the first woman to graduate from the C-130 division of the Air Force Weapons School, where she distinguished herself as the top graduate in her class. Her leadership journey includes commanding a 2,400-person C-17 wing at Joint Base Lewis-McChord through the onset of the COVID pandemic, where she balanced a no-fail nuclear mission, the health and welfare of her airmen and their families, and her own complex family responsibilities with transparency, empathy and a deeply human approach. Known for her team-first mindset, humility and emphasis on learning from failure — as illustrated by formative experiences as a cadet and throughout her operational career — Col. Staine-Pyne now channels her leadership, operational expertise and passion for developing others into bridging military-grade mobility experience with cutting-edge aviation technology in industry, while prioritizing her role as a fully present mom.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPTSPEAKERS:
Guest, Erin Staine-Pyne ’98  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00Well, Erin, thank you so much for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. Erin Staine-Pyne, Class of ’98. We are so excited for this conversation, because, you know, you've had such an amazing career. You know, 3,500 hours in the C-17 and C-130 cockpits to wing commander — and now you’re general manager of mobility at Merlin Labs. Just incredible.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 0:26Thank you. Such a pleasure to be with you, too, Naviere.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34Well, you know, we like to jump right in. And there's actually something that is probably unknown, because you have done so many amazing things, and part of that comes with a story that's not always, you know, rainbows and butterflies. And so back when you were a cadet, if you don't mind sharing this with us, I know you were wearing your supt’s pin. You were captain of the soccer team, and you found yourself marching some tours. Do you mind sharing that story with us?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 0:55Yeah, no, I don't mind at all, because it turned out to be a great leadership lesson in my life. So yeah, I was kind of at the top of my game, I felt like in my senior year at the Academy, we had a short break going in our soccer season, we had a weekend off, which was pretty rare, and the other captain and I were like, Hey, let's get the girls together, right? We deserve to have a little bit of fun. Take a little break. Like, what could we do to make that happen? And we decided, hey, let's rent a hotel room. We'll throw a little party. We'll have some friends over. What cadets haven't done that exactly. We'll be super responsible. We'll get the hotel room so nobody drives. Yeah, we thought about taking care of each other, but as it turned out, we had a great night, fun time, no harm, no foul. But later that week, we found out that one of the freshmen on our team turned us in for underage drinking. And that was a big, shocking moment in my senior year. So it turned into most of the team being restricted, marching tours, you know, really having their reputation tarnished a bit. And even worse for us, maybe than that, was the season took a huge nosedive. You know, we were in a really good place from a from a sport perspective, and we just couldn't get it back together after that happened. And for me, you know, as I looked back on that event, I'm so thankful that it happened at the Academy and not sometime later in my career, when I was in charge of young airmen, but I'm glad it happened at the Academy and I took a couple of really great lessons out of it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:44That is quite a lesson. I mean, I'm just thinking about someone who is a high achiever doing really well, has this reputation of that's, like you said, untarnished. Let's just take a moment in that space, because there are experiences that all leaders have, I think that are challenging in some way, that maybe is reputational. How do you navigate that? How did you carry yourself through that, when it probably felt dark?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 3:11Yeah it was a little bit bleak. I mean, my family knew about it. But to answer the question, I found myself taking ownership, like, “Ooh, we made a really big mistake. I made a really big mistake as a leader. I took the team the wrong direction.” And so I apologized — like I apologized to the commandant, I apologized to my coaches, I apologized to my teammates, I apologized to some of their parents too, right, that we saw later in the season. And so I think the biggest thing that you can do in that moment is go, “I've really screwed up, and I'll take stock of that and change in the future.” And then the other thing is, you have to learn to forgive fast, like forgive yourself. I made a mistake. This isn't forever, right? It'll be something that I learned along the journey. But then also, for example, the freshmen that turned us in — that was a really emotional moment for the rest of the team.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:17And you all stayed on the team together?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 4:18We did for a while. She did end up leaving the Academy eventually, which I'm disappointed about. Like, I kind of feel like that's a little bit of another leadership failure there. But I just think the thing I learned out of it later was you have to forgive quickly.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:33Wow. I mean, it seems so interesting that you had that kind of lesson so early. But I think one of the best things about the academy is really as a leadership lab we talk about, you know, being able to grow from learning lessons. How would you say your other cadets outside of the bubble? Right? The bubble being those who are in it with you. Because I think in life in general, when things happen, you kind of have this other perspective of people who don't know what's going on, and so then they come up with their own perceptions and thoughts on that. How did you navigate that as a cadet in the Cadet Wing?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 5:09Yeah, I think it was trying at my first attempts at transparency, yeah, you know, like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” Like, people would ask us, “How much trouble are you guys in?” And at first we'd be like, “Well, we don't really know.” You know? “We don't know what this is going to turn out to look like,” and then once we kind of got our punishment, six months of restriction, 100 tours, 100 confinements, but with the potential, at least for the seniors to still graduate, we tried to share that with people too, like as if the leadership at the Academy still had some faith in us and thought we might still be able to graduate and be lieutenants someday. So, yeah, I would just say we tried some transparency. And, you know, there was also this kind of feeling of, I can't believe that your teammate did that. And we tried to address that too, you know, so it wouldn't come back, especially specifically on her right, as, you know, she was the one at fault here, right, like we were all at fault, you know, not doing the right thing.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:14What a way to rise above. And I think really, what a beautiful story. Because I think some lessons in there, transparency, making sure that it, you know, it was responsibility that everyone took on, and it wasn't starting to point fingers. Because I think it certainly is easy to try and push things away from ourselves, isn't it?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 6:30Yeah, absolutely,
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:31Oh, my goodness, thank you for sharing that. I'm sure that was quite a lesson. So you went on to graduate. Yes, yes. And so did you always know you wanted to be a pilot?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 6:43I did. Yeah, since I was really young, I knew I wanted to fly airplanes. My parents sent me to Space Academy when I was somewhere around 11 or 12, and I thought, “Oh, I could be an astronaut. Someday, I want to fly the shuttle.” And so that just sparked the interest. And my dad's a West Point grad, and so when I went to him and asked him, “How do you become a pilot?” He said, “Well, you go to the Air Force Academy,” as if there was no other choice out there.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:10So did you not even apply to West Point?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:11I didn't. Much to his — I mean, I think that hurt his heart, but I didn't. He took me up there for a visit.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:19Just in case you want to just see.Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:20Yeah, the Army has lots of pilots. Yes, no, the Air Force Academy was my destination.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:25That is fascinating. So growing up, were you always someone that was a go-getter? Was this kind of ingrained in you because of your dad the way he raised you? Your mom, like, let's talk about your family dynamic.Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:35And yeah, sure, yeah. My dad an army officer. My mom, super hard worker. Worked in the Senate for a long time as a press secretary, and they just — yeah, they were they were wonderful, and I feel so lucky at the dynamic I had growing up. But yeah, I loved being a leader early, like I loved being in charge early. I could sense that about myself, like I wanted to be the person who helped others get to wherever they were going to. So I sensed that early.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:08Oh, gosh, that's fascinating. So you went to the Air Force Academy, you came out, you got to go and you got to fly, and you're living your dream. I'd like to jump fast forward a bit, because in your leadership role, obviously, you know, as a pilot, you were doing some amazing things, and we can certainly talk about that. But there was a period of time in which you were a wing commander.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 8:28Oh, sure.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:30And I think you know, being a wing commander already is an amazing feat, but you were a wing commander during a time that I think was unprecedented in our country, COVID.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 8:40Yeah, yeah, it was. It was an interesting time. I took the flag for Joint Base Lewis-McChord in early January 2020 and literally a month later, I was dealing with the first cases of COVID in Seattle, in the Seattle area. And so it went from being like, “This is everything I've worked really hard for and I am so excited to lead this amazing organization” to “I have never done anything like this before. No one has, and no one really has a whole lot of advice on what we're going to do next, and we're going to have to figure this out.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22So can you put it in perspective a little bit, just for us to understand? You know, when you're a wing commander, like, how large is this wing and kind of, what are the responsibilities that you were having to oversee while you're navigating a medical crisis?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 9:34Yeah, so the wing is about 2,400 airmen. It's a C-17 wing, and so mobility operations never stop, right? Twenty-four hours a day, we're flying airplanes. I also had a clinic at the time, and then an airfield to run. Yeah, so a few things.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:53Yes, just a couple. Oh, my goodness. OK, so maybe let's, let's talk about what that was like. Because I imagine, as a wing commander, while you do have a network in the way of working with your ,you know, those that are supporting you and all the experts, it still can be, probably be a little bit lonely. How do you navigate that? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 10:13Yeah, well, I think a lot of people say that right, leadership is lonely, and I think it is in the context that at the end of the day, you're the person who has to make those final, tough decisions, no one else can make them for you, right? But the truth is, you have the most amazing a team around you, right? I had, during my time as a wing commander, two of the most amazing seniorenlisted leaders, two chiefs. My group commanders, also colonels, were really, really incredible and experienced. And then the wing commander network is actually pretty powerful too. So you have peers that you've grown up with as squadron commanders who are now in charge of other wings dealing with similar things. And so you lean into that too.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:00Well, we talk about networks in general mean, I think networks are so powerful, not even just in uniform, but outside of uniform. What was it like really trying to I think, when I think about the airmen that you were, you know, leading, they had their families and their own concerns as well. What was a challenging moment as a leader that you had to navigate, maybe where you weren't popular or did you feel like you actually navigated a space where everyone loved you?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 11:24No. I mean, unfortunately, at the end of the day, you do have to make some of those really tough decisions. And so for us at McChord, we were in the middle of the biggest movement of nuclear weapons in history, and so an incredibly important no fail mission, right? And so my main focus was, how do I keep, specifically my crews that are trained to carry nuclear weapons, how do I keep them healthy? We don't have a lot of them, so if a couple of them get sick or something happens, then the mission really is at risk. So I really was focused on how to keep them healthy, but I also was just broadly worried about my older civilians who might be more susceptible to either getting COVID or having a real impact from it. I was worried about my airmen who had family members who might be immune compromised. I was worried about airmen who might go home and take it to their parents or grandparents. So it wasn't quite as simple as, “Well, our airmen are young and healthy.” You know, it's a much more challenging problem than that. And so when COVID was really bad, kind of the fall going into Christmas of 2020, one of the things I had to do was decide, am I going to let my airmen travel? The Air Force would eventually take care of that decision for me. But when the airmen are here, can they get together and celebrate the holidays? Are they going to have to spend Thanksgiving alone? You know, what kind of tough decisions am I going to have to make here? And so, yeah, I probably made some pretty unpopular decisions, thinking at the time that I was protecting the mission, and the way I handled it was it kind of goes back to one of those lessons I learned earlier, was transparency. Yes, we started doing things like Facebook Live, we let people ask as many questions as they wanted to or were brave enough to. And tried to do our best to answer them. And we also tried to convey that we know we're not making perfect decisions right now, like we're learning to right now. And just tried to be very human about it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:42What an amazing approach, a human approach. And I think what's so great about the way you did that was most people only see the struggle from their lens, yeah. And as a leader, you're having to look at the if I make this decision, what's the second, third and fourth, you know, effect that comes from that decision on a much broader scale. And so I think when you talked about the transparency, that is really powerful.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 14:04And it was a great way to get feedback too. You know, I, like some of my young airmen were struggling at the time, but actually it was some of my single officers, even who, you know, didn't quite have that family network around them where they were. And so we realized we had to pay attention to some other groups too, as we tried to think of ways to make sure we were taking care of the individual, but also the mission.
 
 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:33My goodness. I mean, I just think about it, the standpoint of the weight that you carried in that space. How did it impact you on the home front, right? So you're leading up a wing, but you also have a family as well. What did that look like that?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 14:45It was a challenging time. I had a 2-year-old at home, right? And at certainly, at the beginning of COVID, we didn't know what the impact kids was going to be, and so I was worried that she might be really vulnerable at that time. And my husband, who was also an Academy grad, his parents were living with us at the time, helping with the baby, and his dad had cancer. And so we were incredibly concerned about even me going to work every day, and the possibility of bringing something back to the house was a huge challenge. There was a time where I would enter through the garage and, like, strip down, put new clothes on, or go straight to a shower.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:31Like a hazmat.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 15:32Yeah. I mean, it was a really interesting time at the beginning. So many unknowns. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:37Oh, my goodness. Well, I think most people can understand when I said hazmat, like hazardous materials and clearing yourself from it. But in a way, that's kind of what, how COVID did impact us. Wow. When you were talking in those moments as almost looks like a human and vulnerable leader in that approach, did you share, like, “Look, I understand these things as well, because I, too, have a family.” Did you — were those the ways you were…Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 15:58Yes, absolutely. So anytime I got a chance to talk to airmen face to face, I would talk to them about how I'm my focus is certainly accomplishing our mission, but my focus is on their health, their family's health, and this is how I'm thinking about it, right? I'm thinking about my own family and the different dynamics we have going on, and how it might apply to them too. And I love the fact that before that, you would never have seen a wing commander doing something like a Facebook Live. But that just became such an incredible tool for that exact reason.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:33Yes, so just thinking about the way you handled that, was there someone in your life, a mentor, or someone that you saw kind of display those traits that you emulated, or were they just something that you innately had in you?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 16:44No, I'm sure I picked up on traits from multiple leaders that I had throughout my career. Col. John Murkowski is probably one of my favorite mentors. He was a DO in my first squadron…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:00Director of operations.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:02Thank you; in my first squadron. And later I would work and work for him as a staff officer at Air Mobility Command. And I watched him lead, just with so much humility, very caring leadership style and certainly a good communicator. And you know, somebody like that is somebody you want to emulate in the future.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:25Absolutely. And if I recall correctly, he's the one I think that might have turned your eye open to this concept of Air Force Weapons School, right?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:33It's true.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:35Let's talk about that a little bit. Because so for those listening and watching, you know, I was not an aviator, I was a logistics officer. And so I think even the thought of Weapons School, to me, is very much a pilot and aviation focused opportunity. Can we just talk a little bit about that in general, just so that we all can learn more about Weapons School? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:54Yeah, I mean, certainly the history of the weapons school is focused on fighter operations. Right? The fighter pilot employing weapons being a tactical expert leading operations. That's how it started. But I think one of the best things the Air Force ever did was realize that in order to be successful in modern combat, you have to have a force that's integrated. So you need your intel officers to understand and provide information to the entire the entire force. You need space officers who can employ space effects at the right time. You need more than just the person in the flight deck or cockpit who's employing the weapons. So they somewhere in the ’90s, right? We branched out. It started, certainly Intel officers were part of it for a long time, but it branched out into the mobility communities, and then later you would see it branch out into the space communities too.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:53So it was early and not very long before this opportunity was presented to you. Let's talk about that. Because had you, I know you had your site set on being a pilot. Were your site set on Weapons School?Erin Staine-Pyne 19:04Never, never. No, I think — I felt, at least at that point, I felt really young in my career, still, right? I was an aircraft commander at the time. I wasn't an instructor in my weapons system yet. I wasn't an evaluator in my weapons system yet. And my director of operations came to me and said, “We want you to apply to weapons school.” And I was like, “I'm pretty young for that,
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:30And it’s very competitive, right?
 
Erin Staine-Pyne 19:31It's very competitive. And the weapons officers in my squadron were like, they like, walked on water. Seemed like. They're so knowledgeable. So I hadn't really thought about it mostly in terms of time, like what it didn't seem like the right time for me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:50So what made you say yes to apply?
 
Erin Staine-Pyne 19:53Yeah, I think, I think it was really two things. One was clearly my leadership believed in me, and that was hugely powerful, right? Somebody comes to you and says, “No, we think you are ready for this.” That was hugely powerful. And then the other thing is, they also said to me, “You would be the first woman to go through the C-130 program. We've never had a female graduate.” And I said, “Well, that's ridiculous.” Like, why is that still a barrier right now? And so I thought, “Well, if not me, then who?” Like, who's going to be the next woman who might be interested in that opportunity? And so I kind of threw a little caution to the wind I feel like, and said, “OK, let's do this.”
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:43What is that experience like? Because I know what it's like to apply to apply to the Air Force Academy. You know, you have this, the program you're going through when you're getting, you know, your weapon system up that you're going to get in pilot training. What is it like, this application process for Weapons School?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 20:57Yeah, so I remember you have to fill out a bunch of forms.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:00OK, so that's pretty similar.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 21:03Yeah, annotated paperwork. You have to fill out a bunch of forms, but on the forms, you have to talk about your flying experience and all the things you know. You have to have certain boxes checked, if you will. And so I remember filling out the form. They're like, “You have to have 100 hours as an instructor pilot.” And I'm like, “I don't have that, you know, but we'll plan to have accomplished prior to Weapons School starting,” Um, so yeah, I remember filling out the form and just being like, “OK, this kind of confirms I'm not sure I'm ready for this.”
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35But obviously yes. So how many people are — maybe the word is accepted — into Weapons School class, and then how many typically graduate? Like, what's the attrition rate?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 21:45Yeah, so each platform is different on how many students they take. Typically in a C-130 class, you would have somewhere around eight or nine students and you're probably going to lose perhaps one per class.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:03OK, the numbers are small to begin with; that's kind of significant.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:04Significant, yeah. If the class isn't making it through, every once in a while, you'll lose two and that's a challenge. It's a challenge to run the program without enough students, too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:15OK, so how long is that?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:16It's a six-month program, OK, or maybe five and a half months approximately. So it's a pretty big chunk of your flying life to go to training for that long too.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:27So let's talk about that, because there was probably some growth in yourself as a leader. One feeling like you weren't actually ready, then you were accepted. So then you're clearly ready, but you know, you're navigating it, and almost enough in a first kind of capacity. What was it like from growing as a leader in Weapons School?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:43Yeah, it was. It was just the perfect example of how obstacles can be opportunities, you know? And like, I talked to some of my younger airmen now and I tell them, “Don't ever turn down an opportunity, because you never know when that opportunity is going to be the thing that that really propels your career or changes what you're interested in, or leads you down a really interesting path.” And so I walked in the door, and I certainly was a little bit nervous, and perhaps had a chip on my shoulder about being the first woman to go through the program.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:18Tell me what you mean by that. Chip on your shoulder. Chip on — you're like, “Why hasn't it happened yet?” Or chip on — like, “I have something to prove.”
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 23:24Yeah, maybe I have something to prove, you know, like that, “I'm good enough to be here.” And what I learned, though, is, as soon as the program started, and I actually met the instructors and the people, you know, my classmates, the people that I'd be going through the program with, is it was completely unnecessary. They wanted nothing more than me to be, you know, wildly successful in the program. And so it just turned out to be such an opportunity and such a great experience.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:56And I'm going to mention this because I'm sure that you won't, you end up being the top graduate from your Weapons School class. What did that look like through the program? You know? How did you earn that? And was it from different things you demonstrated as a leader? Like, what brought that forth?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 24:14Yeah, I think, certainly it's especially in the Air Force flying communities, like you have to do the work yourself, right? It's hard work. You have to study. There's a lot of academics, but I think at the end of the day, what's really important is that you understand that the team dynamics. You know you're going through the weapon school with eight or another eight or nine other people. Are you the person who sits down and helps somebody out when you're good at something and they're not? Are you the person who recognizes what the other teammates are really good at and take advantage of that? It's really about learning those individuals and building the team dynamics up that makes you successful in a program like that.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:00Erin, I'm just thinking back on all the things that you've shared with me, just in the way that you are such a team minded person. You know at the Academy, you were the team captain. You know at weapons school, you're, you know, the distinguished graduate. That what they call graduate, yes, and so wing commander. I mean, I think there's this theme. What would you say is probably that most important characteristic that you carry then as a leader?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 25:28Yeah, it's, I feel like maybe this is a broken record with some other leaders, but I think it's empathy. I really do. I think one of the things I think about back to my Air Force Academy experience, is, you know, I had freshmen I was responsible for as a sophomore, or I had teammates I was responsible for as a team captain, and did I really get to know them? Like I knew them. But did I really get to know them? Could I really walk in their shoes for a little bit and practice empathy for them? And so it took me a long time to learn, like, what a skill it is to be able to see something from somebody else's perspective, and how you can use that when you're leading. But I'd say it now: It's a superpower.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:14When have you found in your career that that could be really challenging, like the knowing that's such an important fabric in your being a leader but also having to balance the mission right? Can you share a story or anything? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 26:29Yeah, I really can. So one of the things that was challenging at McChord was our tempo, right? We were really busy, especially in certain mission areas, and so I could see the strain on some of my airmen. And the question is, how far can you push right like, how far can you push before it's too far and they really get unhealthy? And so I found myself — because I certainly feel empathetic towards them, I've been the person on the road all the time — I felt myself wanting to go to my MAJCOM and say, “You guys have to slow down for us, like you have to give us a little bit less mission.” And yet, at the time, they needed us to do more, you know. And so really trying to get into the details about how much workload can we sustain? How can we find different ways to share the workload across the wing that maybe we haven't thought of before? I found myself trying to find alternate ways to balance those two things that were really ahead with each other.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:41Was that something that you had the opportunity to talk through or work through with someone, or is this something that you really kind of just had to dig in internally and figure out?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 27:52Yeah, no, it's a perfect example of digging into the team, right? Bringing the team back together. I had a great ops group commander who really understood the challenge. I had a planner who was the person who would really plan out the sortie pace, who really understood the challenge, and had great contacts at Air Mobility Command, like, No, I mean, we would bring a tiger team together to try to figure this out. And my job at that time was to give direction, remove obstacles out of the way, but then really let them at their expert level, dig in and try to come up with some solutions.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:29That's fantastic. The team effort, everyone just kind of rallying around. So I'm curious on —because of the tempo of the roles you've had to be in and lead and experiences you've had, how has that impacted you? Your ability to be present with your family? How do you navigate that as a leader? Because I think that's something that leaders struggle with, like, how far do I go myself, and where am I willing to, you know, let things kind of go to the back burner.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 28:54Yeah, I think it's one of the hardest challenges out there, right? People talk about work-life balance. I'm probably of the ilk that I don't really think there's a such a thing, right? I think it's more of a like a sine wave curve, where you pay attention to your career at those really critical times that you need to and then when there's an opportunity to kind of, you know, pull the throttles back, you do it. And if you learn that early in your career, that there are those peaks and valleys, you can build a healthy career over time. So I would find that certainly, anytime you're in a leadership position, right, squadron commander, flight commander, wing commander, those are going to be the times when you're right at the top and right, you've got to find ways to incorporate your family into the job. Yes, what I would tell you, and then the other times you can focus more on what they want to do. But yeah, when I was a commander, I would — my husband was fully involved in the squadron. When I was a wing commander, I had a Pack n’ Play in my office right for my little one, because I wanted to make sure I got plenty of time with her too, and I would find ways to incorporate that too, right?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:08And you actually showed that human side in leadership.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 30:11Yeah. And I wanted my airmen to see it, to see that, you know, I wasn't all the time Air Force blue. We gotta go, go, go. No, I've got to find ways to make both of those things work
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:25
In all those times when you were leading others, and, you know, working in a partnership with Frank, your husband and your family, when did you find time to take care of you? Like, what did that look like for you?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 30:36It was hard, it was hard, but I think what I did was I tried to find the things that gave me the most pleasure and prioritize those. So for me, it was, for example, I'm a soccer player, right? Anytime we were assigned to D.C., I joined my indoor soccer team and played soccer on the weekends, you know, or sometimes it was just curling up and reading a good book that had nothing to do with military. Like, finding some pleasure in the small things I do think we scheduled. Like, I never gave leave back. I think that's really important. That is such an importan — I always took advantage of my leave. And I would plan big things for it too, like, we're gonna go to Hawaii, or we're going to go to Europe, you know, we're going to do things and experience something else. So we have some of those really fun things to look back on. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:33And when you took that leave, I'm curious, how did you navigate that space? As I'm a leader, am I reachable? Or what does that look like when you're on vacation?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 31:41Yeah, I think you have to be reachable. Yes. I mean, unfortunately, sometimes there are just things that happen that you have to be reachable. But I think you also try to set an expectation that the person running your squadron or your wing or your, you know, whatever organization it is, that they understand when those moments are like, “You're not calling me for the small things. You're calling me because something big has happened and it requires my attention.”Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:11No, that's perfect. So I'm as I'm thinking about your career, what is probably had been the most maybe rewarding, I'll give you an option, either, like, the most rewarding experience you've had as a leader, or maybe the most challenging, because I think, like, those kind of, you know, two ends of the spectrum really kind of forge us as leaders at times.Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 32:30Yeah, well, I'll tell you what the most rewarding is, because it's really fun. It's actually, it actually still happens now is, like, the other day, I got a note from one of one of my he was a staff sergeant when he was in my squadron, and he reaches out to me, he says, he's retiring, and could I come to his retirement? And, “Hey, you were the best squadron commander I ever had in my 20-year career.” You know, something like a piece of feedback like that, like I could sustain on that for a really long time, that that and that you made an impact in somebody's life, right? And they remember maybe some of the leadership traits you exemplified and used them themselves in their career. I just think that's like the full professional, complete loop.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:15Wow, what a perfect way to take us here. Because one of the things I like to ask all of my guests on Long Blue Leadership is, What is something you are doing every day to be better? I mean, you talked about, you know, how you kind of lean into, you know, those moments and really celebrate them and be reachable, etc. But I'm curious, what are you doing every day?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 33:32Yeah, I love this question, actually. So it made me reflect, “Am I doing something every day that will actually continue my own self-improvement?” And I think the answer is yes, but to be honest, right now, it's really focused somewhat inward on my family. Yeah. So I'm at that point in my career where I've spent a lot of time giving to the military, to the service, to whatever objective it was, and so today I am trying to be the best mom that I possibly can every single day. So I'll read a blog, a book, I'll talk to other moms, collaborate with her teachers. I'm really focused on trying to make sure I'm fully present as a mother, since I have the opportunity, because I was a little late to motherhood.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:22Well, I mean, it sounds like a beautiful way to fill your own cup, right? Oh, I love that. Well, the other question we like to ask is, if you could turn back time and talk to your young self, or maybe just if you're thinking about cadets, and those who you know cadet hopeful is coming up and in, in today's day and age, what's something you would tell them to do now in the space they're in so they'll be better set up down the road?Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 34:45Yeah, I would tell them not to self-limit. Like, don't — if you think about something that you want to do in your career, or if you think about an idea that is possible, but maybe you think right now, you know nobody would support it or whatever. Don't self-limit. Like, go after it and be willing to take risks in that career space too. So there's so much that a single airman can do in this service, and there are senior leaders who want airmen who are kind of bold and willing to take risk and really reach their full potential. So yeah, don't self-limit.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:26What does that look like? Like, what does — I mean the idea of saying to myself, “OK, like, I'm just going to be really open to things.” Or, how do you put that into practice?
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 35:33I think it means, if you want to apply for a program and you're like, “I'm not sure I'm going to get that.” Apply, right? Apply. If you are worried about going to pilot training and washing out, don't be like — go through it again. The system is designed now to really help you get through those programs and those experiences. So don't just, don't rule anything out in your own mind beforeyou know, let somebody else do the ruling out for you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04Thank you for, I think, just expanding on that, because, you know, I think we can always look back, we know we're wiser and older now, right? And understand that. But I think actually, you made it so practical, and actually how you really do live that way. Yeah, thank you for that.
 
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 36:17Yeah, absolutely.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:18Oh gosh. Erin, I mean, this has been incredible. Has there been anything in your leadership journey that we haven't talked about that you would really love to share? Because I want to make want to make sure we have that time with you.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 36:27Yeah, I mean, you really hit some of the highlights, for sure. I just I've been so lucky to be part of so many great teams along the journey, and it's so interesting to see where you learn the biggest leadership lessons from, my opinion, is it hasn't necessarily been from some of those big successes. It's definitely been from the failures along the way. And so I just, I think seeing failure is that opportunity is really important.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:57We talked about your cadet failure. Was there any other one in your, you know, in your professional career, post-graduation, that you did see?
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 37:04I mean, I'm sure there were, yeah. I mean, Weapons School itself is a lesson in failing on a you know? One week you're completely failing, the instructors tell you how terrible you're doing, and the next week you're like, crushing it.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:19Sounds like basic training a little bit.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 37:22A little bit, right? It's definitely emotional. And so, yeah, I just, I think there are lots of examples of “I know I didn't get it exactly right this time, and I'm just going to build on that for next time.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:36Oh, gosh. Well, thank you. I one of my favorite things about this time with you, Erin, is how you've navigated your career, but you've done it just even being in this room, like your smile is just effervescent. I have loved being in this room with you. Some of the lessons that I've taken away throughout this entire conversation: being transparent, being human. Just, I've seen it in just the work that we do together here at the Association & Foundation. I'm looking forward to seeing it in, you know, in this role that you're now with, with Merlin Lab, but I know you're going to be successful and the people that will get to work with you will just be thrilled, and will grow from that too.Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 38:10Yeah, thanks, Naviere. I love what you're doing with the Long Blue Leadership podcast, with all the Association events. I really think you're helping to connect future leaders and current leaders, and I just think that's so important for what we're doing today. So thank you for what you're doing too.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:29Thank you. Well, I just taken it from some of the lessons you were talking about. Meet them where they are, right? So that's what we're doing. Well, I want to thank you all for joining us today on Long Blue Leadership. You know, Erin Staine-Pyne, Class of ’98 — she trained me, so you know I'm going to be good — But you know, the lessons permeate no matter where you are in your leadership career. Be human, be transparent, be present and then remember that your career, I think how you said it kind of on these waves. And so, you know, do what you need to do in the moment. You need to do them. And I think as long as you take care of yourself and take care of your people, you're going to be successful. So thank you again for joining us.
Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 39:05Thank you.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:06And thank you for joining us on Long Blue Leadership. Until next time, I’m Naviere Walkewicz.
 
KEYWORDS
Air Force leadership, military leadership lessons, leadership failure, overcoming failure, accountability in leadership, transparency in leadership, empathy in leadership, leading through crisis, leadership during pandemic, mission versus people balance, building strong teams, mentoring airmen, women military leaders, professional development, resilience in leadership.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 
 

Sometimes leadership is modeled in small ways — like leaving work at 4 p.m. and meaning it. Not because the job’s done — but because you’re showing your team that life outside of work matters too.
SUMMARY
In this Long Blue Leadership podcast, Mark Michalek ’99, human capital director for the FBI, shares leadership tips for more resilient teams.
 
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MARK'S TOP LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS
1. Transforming trauma into purpose
Turning childhood loss and adversity into a lifelong calling in public safety, service and leadership
2. Post-traumatic growth vs. post-traumatic stress
Reframing exposure to trauma as a potential catalyst for growth, resilience and deeper empathy in leaders
3. Whole-person leadership
Leading people as complete humans — on duty, off duty, past and present — rather than just as job roles
4. Mental fitness as performance, not weakness
Positioning counseling, wellness and psychological support as tools to optimize performance, not signs of failure
5. Modeling the behavior you want to see
Leaders leaving at 4 p.m. for family, openly seeing counselors and visibly prioritizing health to give others “permission” to do the same
6. Leading in high-consequence environments
Staying the “steady hand to land the plane” during crises like mass casualty events, while empowering experts on the ground
7. From doing the work to leading the work
Shifting from frontline case work (violent crime agent) to enterprise-level leadership that shapes culture and systems
8. The power of networks and extended family in uniform
Leveraging the Long Blue Line and law enforcement community as a lifelong support, mentorship and resilience network
9. Discipline, recovery and sustainable performance
Rest, running and intentional unplugging as essential leadership disciplines — not optional extras
10. Long-view leadership and legacy
Seeing careers (military, FBI) as chapters, focusing on integrity, service and excellence, and building organizations your kids would proudly join
 
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
00:00:30 – Early Life and Father’s Suicide
00:02:00 – Finding an Extended Family in Law Enforcement
00:03:00 – Civil Air Patrol, Flying and the Path to USAFA
00:04:15 – Cadet Years, Setbacks and First Responder Leadership
00:07:25 – Choosing Security Forces and First Leadership in Nuclear Convoys
00:09:45 – From Military to FBI: Mental Fitness and Post-Traumatic Growth
00:15:15 – Balancing Family, Leadership Loneliness and Modeling Self-Care
00:19:15 – Leading Through Crisis: Inside the Boulder Attack Response
00:27:30 – Lessons, Legacy and Advice for Future Leaders
 
ABOUT MARK
BIO
Mark Michalek is a senior leader in the Federal Bureau of Investigation, currently serving as human capital director, a role to which he was appointed by Pam Bondi, former U.S. attorney general. In this capacity, Michalek leads enterprise policy and strategy for human resources, security, internal affairs, compliance and training across the Bureau’s 38,000-person global workforce.
A 1999 graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, Michalek previously served as special agent in charge of the FBI’s Denver field office, where he oversaw operations throughout Colorado and Wyoming. He is the highest-ranking FBI special agent who is also a military veteran.
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS
Guest, Mark Machalek ’99  |  Host, Lt. Col. (ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:11
Well, Mark, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is truly an honor, as your classmate, Class of ’99. We go back, gosh, 30 years.
 
Mark Michalek  0:18
It is so exciting to see you again and to be here at USAFA; to have this conversation is just priceless. So thank you.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:27
Who knew we'd be doing this this many years?
 
Mark Michalek  00:28
That's right.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  00:31
Many may not know you've been in security forces as an active-duty officer, you went into the FBI, and you've really been in this public safety kind of realm. But we're going to dive in with, I think, a moment in time that really shaped you, and just in something I learned about you just recently. So you're 5 years old, and you shared with me that your dad actually, he took his life — death by suicide, right? And it shaped you in a way, when you're thinking about your role in public safety. Do you mind kind of sharing that with us?
 
Mark Michalek  01:00
When I was 5 years old, my dad died by suicide, and I was an only child, and he was my absolute hero. He was a local police officer, so my earliest memories of childhood were wearing his uniform and seeing the squad car and being around officers. And I think that really solidified my future in public safety.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  01:26
Your hero, something that you were exposed to. Tell me, as a 5-year-old, what did that start to look like? Where did you see that show up in, you know, in school, in your sports, like, just in the way you lived? How did, how did you navigate that?
 
Mark Michalek  01:40
So quickly I had an extended family. As I went to the playground and were around town, squad cars would show up,and police officers would come by and, you know, give me a pop or come in and check with me and see how I was doing and see how my mom was doing. And that really laid a foundation for me of a sense of an extended family of the police department being more than just a job in the balance of that. That sense of camaraderie and togetherness with the mission, I think, really shaped my childhood. I became very, very active. And I don't know if that was by design or divine intervention, or what, but it was kind of, you know, the object in motion stays in motion. I was on the run, literally on the run. Loved to run long distance. I quickly got into Civil Air Patrol as soon as I was old enough to do so, and got exposed to the Air Force that way. I got my private pilot's license at 17, I soloed before I got my driver's license and was destined to come to the Academy.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  02:48
Wow. I mean, you were accomplishing so much so quickly. Were you always like that was, did you see others in your life like that? Was your dad that way?
 
Mark Michalek  02:59
It's interesting in retrospect, to see if that was inherited or that was kind of a response to the trauma. I kind of think it was a response. I'm the only person in my family to have moved outside of Flint, Michigan. So folks were very stable and stayed where they were, but I was just constantly moving. You know. As we're talking, I remember I was the youngest Red Cross CPR instructor for the county at 15. I formed a K-9 search-and-rescue unit for police departments to train dogs to help find missing people. And I guess that was just a response to what had happened, and it really planted a seed in me that life is short, and I've had this drive to just leave it all on the field, to keep moving forward, to do more and more, to be able to, you know, focus on public safety and to protect people.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  03:54
So you showed up at USAFA. You knew — you went to Civil Air Patrol and USAFA was in your sights. I remember you as a cadet, and you're always a go-getter as well. Let's talk about a little bit your cadet years, and maybe some of where you saw that evolution of yourself as a leader, but also maybe how it showed up through, you know, go-getting and continually pushing that.
 
Mark Michalek  04:16
My first setback was I wasn't initially accepted. I got a Falcon Foundation scholarship. And it was really a fork-in-the-road decision — “Do you kind of take a year off and go this route and reapply, or do you go another route?” I ended up going, obviously the Falcon Foundation route. Went to Marion Military Institute, and I'm so glad I did, because it set me up to be a cadet and to be in the same class as you. You know, that cadet experience is just such a sensory overload. I wasn't an athlete. I joke that my athletics were just kind of graduating, like I just needed to focus on academics and surviving the day. But then I started to see some kind of opportunities to give back. And I kind of see these themes throughout my life. Myself and two of our classmates formed the cadet first responder team back in ’97, I think. And that was really just, again, interest in public safety and a recognition that we needed some more kind of support for cadet-related activities. You know, 24/7 we've got the fire department and EMS here, but to understand the cadet experience and to be able to help out. So my sponsor was a paramedic in Colorado Springs, and a lot of ride time with him.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  05:37
That kind of worked out really well.
 
Mark Michalek  05:39
Again, divine intervention. And so we formed this team. We got our EMT certification on nights, and we're able to help out, and, you know, provide practical experience. If you remember that Class of 2001 was absolutely decimated during Recognition. Remember, we had to have a timeout. There was — we had to have a time to say, “Look, like, we got to, you know, we got to rein this in,” and so we were able to provide a lot of support there. But as I progressed in the Academy, you know, public safety, protecting people, continued to resonate with me, and was one of the reasons I chose behavioral science as a as a track, partly…
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:19
Not because you didn't love math?
 
Mark Michalek  06:21
Partly because I probably wouldn't have graduated.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:24
I was right here — social sciences too.
 
Mark Michalek  06:28
Yeah, you know, you got to go where you're strong, right? But I knew that regardless, we'd be working with people. And then to tie it back to my dad to understand why somebody with a family would take their own life was still something that I was struggling with, and so that really led me to a psychology track. But this drumbeat of public safety really continued to resonate with me, and it's really the main reason that I chose security forces as a career field. I mean, I was medically qualified to fly. Already had a private pilot's license.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  06:59
Right. That was actually what I was gonna ask you, because you had that.
 
Mark Michalek  07:03
Partly because although I have my license, I get horrifically air sick, which is a weird dynamic.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  07:11
And yet you kept pushing yourself. Amazing.
 
Mark Michalek  07:12
Yeah. So if I'm flying, I don't get sick, but if I'm a passenger, then I get sick. So I didn't want that as a career choice for me, but I wanted to lead people where they were. I wanted to lead on the ground in the public safety space, and so that's why I chose security forces.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  07:28
So let's talk about that a little bit. You know, as a security forces officer, you saw many things. I'm certain of it. But was there a moment when you actually had a leadership kind of moment for yourself that you grew — different from when you're a cadet — but in the moment leading some security forces, men and women, was there a moment that you grew that way?
 
Mark Michalek  07:49
Yeah, I think right out of the gate, because as soon as you're a second lieutenant in security forces, you are leading airmen. So my first assignment was at F.E. Warren as a nuclear weapon convoy commander — a team of 40 airmen. So there's no diffusion responsibility, there's nowhere to hide. Like, you are it. And that was the first practical application of leadership for me. Theoretically, and you know, within the Cadet Wing, you're kind of in this microcosm to test some things out and develop who you're going to be as a leader. But once you hit the ground, like, that is it. And to be able to motivate, inspire a team of people in a mission to protect nuclear weapons when there hasn't been a direct attack in our history is difficult, but now I look back as a 23-year-old lieutenant running a nuclear weapon convoy with the world's most important weapon on the open highways is an incredible responsibility. But that's really, I think, where the rubber meets the road, where you start to see what leadership looks like for you. It's not the same for everybody, right? You take bits and pieces of people and in theories and apply really what the moment requires. And in security forces, you really start to see the value of the senior noncommissioned officers, and although you have the authority, they have the reputation and the ability to deliver and so it's more art than science. And so I learned that very quick, right out of the gate.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  09:12
That makes a lot of sense. And something that you said, I think, is really important. You know that that human piece of it, when I think about the pace in which security forces and a lot of our law enforcement roles live in. My question for you might be, how did you help those handle kind of challenging moments or stress, right? You kind of go towards, “Give me more,” take on more, stay busy. Not everyone is wired the same. So did you have airmen that struggled in how they dealt with, you know, things, trauma, etc., and how did you coach or lead them through that?
 
Mark Michalek  09:45
Back then, there really wasn't a lot of support. There really wasn't a recognition. There was still a stigma, both in the military and law enforcement, of “I can't disclose that I'm having a problem. You're going to take my secure clearance, you know, you're going to take my weapon, I'm going to lose my job, I'm going to be embarrassed.” And so at that time, there really wasn't a safety net or an openness to discuss it, so you kind of just dealt with it. So it was more of telegraphing as a leader of what your values were, in hopes that people would kind of, you know, reach out if they needed help. In my time in the FBI, I was able to influence decisions and policies, to be able to be more accommodating, to kind of focus on the whole person and look at our individual followers as a function of performance, as opposed to, you know, you're my responsibility when you're in uniform from 9 to 5 and then you're off duty. You know, life is not my concern as a leader.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  10:47
You know there are times when you're leading folks and you might have the authority to do some things. Did you start to implement some of those programs or support resources, etc., as an agent, or when you were at a higher-level authority?
 
Mark Michalek  11:00
In FBI, it was at a higher level. So, you know, one of the reasons I left the Air Force after six years, it was a tough decision. And it wasn't running away from something, it was running towards something. And I recognized, you know, when we were company-grade officers, the trajectory is kind of baked in. You will continue to promote, but you will lead people. I wanted to do the work. I didn't want to just lead the people doing the work. I wanted to do the work for myself, and that was one of the reasons I joined the FBI. But going through as a case agent for 13 years on a violent crime squad and being exposed to some of the different things that my dad was exposed to, that others were exposed to, it really laid a foundation as I pursued leadership to be able to have greater influence as I moved up the organization, to set that culture towards mental fitness and resilience and really as a function of optimizing performance.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  11:55
Can you talk about that a little bit more? Tell me what you mean by mental fitness and resilience.
 
Mark Michalek  12:00
So, you know, law enforcement and military both, over the past 20 years, have made significant progress in kind of chipping away at that stigma. We're not where we need to be yet, but we're making really, really good progress. I equate our work to that of an Olympic athlete. It's not just running the race. Olympic athletes are obsessed with their craft, whether it is nutrition, sleep, mental imagery, you know, different types of runs to test different types of muscles and stamina and endurance, but they look at the whole person. So too should we in law enforcement and in the military. So as I got into leadership positions, you kind of block and tackle for your people and let them run, and you set the trajectory of your unit, your squad, your team, your division, your organization, on how they move forward. And so I really push that whole-person concept, that you are a whole person, not just your 9-to-5, but your off duty, your on duty, your past, your present, and all of that needs to be optimized for you to perform the mission. I was very fortunate at our entry level senior executive service position to be at our headquarters and be responsible for — it's called our employee health and performance section, but the clinical staff at the FBI, the psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors, nurses, social workers, to be able to drive that culture and to move from post-traumatic stress to post-traumatic growth. And I needed to experience that as an agent. I needed to be on mass casualty scenes. I needed to be engaged with victims of crime to understand what that looked like, what that felt like, to project what my dad had experienced, but to recognize as humans, we are not wired to see what we are requiring our people to see and do time and time again, and we just require them to go out, to go out, to go out — instead, to provide mental health counseling, which in the FBI, we do, not only for the employee, but for their spouse, which I think is very important, and kids, for that matter, to be able to recognize that, yeah, like, you're not super human. It's OK to not be OK. You're not going to lose your clearance and your gun. People that lose their clearance do so because they compensate in maladaptive ways, whether that's drugs or alcohol or anything like that. And so that's been rewarding to drive that culture, to push the creation of employee assistance, counselors, these are mental health practitioners, chaplains, peers, just to be able to let that culture permeate, and to be able to demonstrate from the top, I'm very open about my dad and how that has shaped my life, to be able to telegraph that, you know, post-traumatic growth is possible, and there are a variety of resources out there now. And there's science and research, and there's just a recognition that the way that we are wired, you can't just keep going 100 miles an hour. You've got to go back to being that Olympic athlete and have a rest in a work and schedule and to be able to push yourself and to relax and just think holistically.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  15:16
The term itself post-traumatic growth is one that I'm not familiar with. But when you explain it that way, it's very clear. And my question to you might be, how have you for yourself, personally — you know, you're a husband, you're a father, you know, you have seen things, and then you go home and while you do have counseling for family members and for yourselves as well, what does that look like, this post-traumatic growth, when you go home personally.
 
Mark Michalek  15:45
You know, it's really tough to practice what you preach. We're really good about setting a vision for an organization as leaders and taking care of other people, but not taking care of ourselves. And what really flipped the switch for me was reframing the perspective on telegraphing for others to create the permission structure that it's OK, and when they see you do that, then they know it's OK. So for example, in FBI culture, same for the military, like if the boss is in the office, you’ve got to stay there, or you’ve got to be there till 5 o'clock. That's fine if you have work to do, but what sense does it make to sit there just because you know your boss is there? So one of the things that I did as I approached senior leadership was I left every day at 4 o'clock, and I made sure they saw me leave. And it's not — I'm going out to go play golf or whatever, but I am going back to be with my family. And in all the assignments I've had — I've moved several times in the FBI — I've made it a point to be home for dinner, and that is the stability for the family, for my girls, for me, and we'll have our dinner and put the kids to bed, and I'll get back and do more work, but being able to telegraph that, you know — I was the special agent in charge of our Denver field office — and as you move into the senior ranks, it's an incredibly lonely job. When you are at the top, there's no way you can talk to you can't gripe to people below you, you know, you've got to have a strong peer network, and you've got to put on the oxygen mask first to be able to help others, and that takes consistent kind of messaging. It takes some consistent actions to be able to show we're putting our money where our mouth is, and then engaging with employee assistance counselors. I talked regularly with ours, and I wanted people to see that, yeah, it's confidential, and there's no shame in that. You would have no problem putting on your squad calendar that you're going to a dentist appointment at 10 o'clock tomorrow. We want to get to a point where that's all “I'm going to go talk to the counselor.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:49
Have you seen the benefits of that, since the agency has made some of these changes?
 
Mark Michalek  17:55
I have, you know, over the past 20 years, the scale, speed and scope of critical incidents is just unimaginable. It's now commonplace for mass shootings. You know, when we were here at the Air Force Academy — Columbine —
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  17:49
I was just thinking that when you brought that up.
 
Mark Michalek  17:55
 
And now it's almost every single week. The FBI is very similar to the military in that we are mission focused. You know, our job is to protect the American people and uphold the Constitution and the threat spectrum has exponentially changed. We have to deliver again. There is nowhere to hide. There's no diffusion of responsibility. When I was the special agent in charge for the Denver field office, we were the FBI for Colorado and Wyoming, and whatever happened, we had to deliver. And so we're not afforded the luxury to not respond. And it takes principled decision making in the development of culture to practice and plan and prepare and create that permission structure, because you know what's going to happen, and when it happens, it hits hard, and we've got to deliver. We have to be mission focused and get the job done, but we have to take care of ourselves on the back end, and that takes purposeful decision making by leaders to carve out that time and say, “Nope, we're going to take a timeout.”
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  19:19
Well, let's talk a little bit about that actual example, but let's talk about the Boulder attack. And you know, what was your role and approach as the leader, you know, in that lonely role as a leader, but to really kind of navigate that. Can you talk about that with us?
 
Mark Michalek  19:37
Unfortunately, the Denver Field Office has had their fair share of critical instances to respond to. So we've got our reps in over the course of time, but that performance just doesn't happen overnight. It takes a lot of work in policy development, in exercises, in pressure testing assumptions to be able to deliver when the moment requires it. The Boulder attack happened on June 1, on a Sunday. And so many things happen at one time. You know, our society has changed where, you know, it's a 24/7, news cycle, and things are happening in real time. You no longer have the built-in delays, because you've got to get to a phone to make a call, and so this is happening, unfolding in front of you in real time, and there's so many things you're responsible for as the leader. I think when it comes to times of crisis, people want stability. They want reassurances. They want a steady hand to land the plane. And that's what my focus was on, that although I have the same emotions, anxiety, stress that is happening, we need to be the steady hand to land the plane. We focused the culture in Denver on direct community impact and supporting partners. I think there's a misperception with the FBI that we have to be the lead. And you know, when the feds come in, they take it over, and, you know, here we go. But that's not the case. We can prop up local law enforcement and to provide the forensic, technical, analytic, tactical, behavioral expertise that they may not have or may be overwhelmed due to the size of the incident. And thankfully, we have a strong relationship with the Boulder Police Department. And so the chief called me personally as he was, I could hear the siren in the background as he was rolling to the scene. So we have plans in place, just like the military when there's a crisis and you send that flare up, and you execute the crisis-management plan, and you work in real time. Everything's moving at 100 miles an hour. Being the leader in that situation, you are getting torn in multiple directions. So you have your employees responding to the scene. You have local law enforcement. You have elected leaders here in Colorado, they want to know what's happening. You have elected leaders in D.C. that want to know what's happening to the point where my phone broke. So many phone calls at once, like, it was fried. And so again, like focusing on — I've got to be the steady drumbeat. I've got to be measured here, to telegraph that we've got this, but also a trust and confidence that your people do have it and to get out of the way. They're the experts. I'll block and tackle for them and let them run, and I telegraphed that in our culture, and let them run, and they did phenomenal. And I focused on what my responsibility was on, was not on being at the scene and seeing what's going on in that, it was engaging with executive leaders to be able to understand what we have, what resources we need, and to be able to deliver now at that time. Given the context of what was happening overseas, we knew this would be an international — of international interest immediately, so it could either go very well and controlled, or it could be absolutely horrible. And so that's another layer of pressure. And when you go back to the fundamentals at the Air Force Academy, of when it matters most, that you buckle your chinstrap on the helmet, and you just get to it, and you immediately go into that mode and distance your emotions and thoughts and anxieties, and put those to the side and focus on the mission at hand. And we knew when we were giving statements in the press that it would be carried internationally, so a different layer of stress as a leader. You know, we had simultaneous operations. We had the scene — the subject had a makeshift flamethrower and threw Molotov cocktails. There was about 15 victims at the time that were transported. Luckily, he was arrested by a Boulder police officer on the scene. But we also had activity in Colorado Springs, where his house was. So generate search warrants and everything for that, and then a mobile command post to assist Boulder PD. But nowadays, you know, we're running leads all over the world, because what we don't know at the macro level is, is this a distraction? Is there another attack happening? Is this part of a pattern that we've got to figure out in very short order?
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  24:20
I'm curious, because I remember the reason why you left active duty, or you transitioned from active duty to the FBI, because you wanted to be in the things doing, the things you find yourself now in, positions where you're leading. How have you grown as a leader yourself? What have you learned about yourself in this? Not being able to be the one doing, but like you said, blocking and tackling? Like, how have you grown yourself?
 
Mark Michalek  24:42
So I was a violent crime agent when I first graduated from Quantico, and I did that for about 12 years, and it was all about impact for me. So I worked bank robbery and armored car robbery scenes. And I remember this. I remember these scenes as we're talking, but I — you go to a chaotic scene like that, with yellow tape and local law enforcement there, and people crying and physical evidence and blood on the ground, and people are looking for somebody to take control. And I remember walking out of my car with that gun and badge on my hip, and you could feel it. “Here comes the FBI.” OK, they've got this and to be able to turn order into chaos, or chaos into order, and create, you know, develop evidence, make a case, prosecute it, provide that sense of closure for victims. That was the juice for me, in that direct community impact. But then I started to feel the calling of leadership from the military, and I started to see that as you move up the ranks, you're able to make more and more impact with a greater group of people. And that became the juice for me. And so in the FBI, it's not as linear as the military, where you, you know, you just move up here, you can kind of go up and down or sideways. But that really motivated me to be able to give back that public safety kind of motivation in larger and larger groups of people. And often when it comes to leadership, whether you're in the military or the FBI, there's kind of this imposter syndrome of like, “Do I really have this?” But you look back and say, “Look at all the things I've been doing, look at all the experiences I've had, all the different places I've led all over the world, and it's turned out just fine. I've got this.” And to move up and up the ranks and to make decisions and lead larger and larger groups of people and learn from those decisions — that was my spark. And then at that point, I just continued down the pipeline. I'm at a point now where I'm operating and leading at the enterprise level, which is impactful, stressful, humbling and rewarding, but that special agent in charge position, that was the ideal position, because you're directly connected with the people. We've got about 500 employees between the two states, and are ingrained in the community to be able just to help more and more people.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  27:09
So you're driven a bit by adrenaline. We've talked about this. I'm curious what's next? I mean, you're at the enterprise level. Do you stay here? How do you continue to fill your sense of impact that your leading or making a difference for when you've kind of continued to really, you know, rise in that way?
 
Mark Michalek  27:29
At the enterprise level, it's a different perspective of leadership — you're obviously leading through several layers of leaders. So you know what you know with the company grade or the supervisory special agent level, you kind of keep the train on the tracks and keep the trains running on time. The enterprise perspective, then you're laying down enough track for that train to keep moving forward. And so it takes a little bit of a shift. I'm enjoying my time right now. It's really impactful to see the subtle things. Change culture, people reaching out when they need help, direct community impact. Where you weren't directly involved in that, but you laid a foundation for that to grow. You know, that said, like, there's only one FBI director, so there's really no other opportunities. It's just continuing to give back at this level, but whether it's military or FBI, it's, you know, the similarities are leading in high-consequence environments where the stakes are high and the margin for error is small, and I think there's opportunities for that to continue to lead in those environments outside of government as well.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  28:50
So I think about some of the things you shared about, you know, why you've made certain decisions and leading through different levels. I'm curious about how leadership has shown up in your house as a dad and as a husband, thinking about what you experience with your dad, how do you navigate that in your home life?
 
Mark Michalek  29:09
You know, it's interesting as you grow older and you gain experience and maturity and in a world view, and you really start to see the forest through the trees, and leadership manifests in different ways, but as you get married and have kids, then you start to appreciate what your employees are experiencing, stresses and joys as well. It forces you to be disciplined and to focus on what your priorities are. And it's tough when you're in a high-consequence environment to say, “Yep, families first — can't do that.” Well, there's a mass shooting, like, you're going to have to go. So there has to be a little bit of flexibility. But all things equal, focusing on the family is really the sunlight, you know that helps us grow, and it shifts your mind towards giving back. Like, in preparing the future generations, which just happened in the blink of an eye for us— as I'm driving in, we go past the buff where we were commissioned. I'm like, my god, 27 years have passed. So now the focus shifts on providing for the family and thinking, “What kind of world do I want my girls to live in?” And it equates to the FBI, because I want the FBI to be an organization that agents and analysts and professional support staff folks not only serve for 20 years, but that my daughters want to join, and they want to do 20 years. So a pendulum shift more towards not just delivering results for today, but continuing to grow on what the future looks like.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  30:43
Pulling that a little bit further, what do you hope that your girls see in you as a leader? You know, the way that your dad was your hero and you looked up to him? What do you what are you hoping your girls see in you the traits?
 
Mark Michalek  30:56
You know, it's funny. They're 9 now, so I think they could care less.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  31:01
Maybe what they don't want to see you doing.
 
Mark Michalek  31:02
I'm just kidding. But, you know, in the future, I want them to be able to see the value of integrity, of service and of excellence, in this recognition that life is so precious and short, and I want them to leave it all on the field. And you know when their day comes to be able to say, “You know what I did, I lived a full life. I was supported, loved…” You know, whatever it is they want to get into, it doesn't have to be law enforcement or anything like — I just want them to excel and enjoy themselves, but just recognize how phenomenal life is and how short it is, and you just got to find your spark and just go for it.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  31:50
That's amazing. And I think about your comment earlier about we're really good at helping others know what they should be doing, but maybe not the best at taking our own advice. How are you doing that and taking care of yourself today?
 
Mark Michalek  32:01
So for me, it's running. Everybody's got something that they need to unplug, decompress from my time, from high school through the Academy, military and now it's running. It gets a little slower as we get older.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  32:17
Note to self, do not plan to go running with Mark. Got it.
 
Mark Michalek  32:21
But it just — everybody needs time to unplug and take off all the masks. FBI agent, Air Force member, husband, parent, friend. You just need to take the mask off and you just need to breathe. And that's what does it for me, being outside and breathing. And one of my assignments was in our San Diego field office, which was spectacular. But being in water was another area that I really found energized me and, you know, and made me whole. But, yeah, running is what does it now. And I make it a point that no matter how busy I am, I've got to run at least once a week.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  33:05
OK, what's your distance that you're running to give yourself this time to unplug in?
 
Mark Michalek  33:09
Now, not fast. Now, this isn't a sprint; it's more of a marathon, but I haven't done any marathons. That's a little too much for me. I'm in the in the 5- to 8-mile range. That seems to be the sweet spot. And then here in Colorado, it's being out in nature, but in D.C., to be able to run the monuments every single time — and I've done it hundreds of times — but every time you go past those monuments, and you put your hand on the Washington Monument, or you go up to the Lincoln Memorial, and you stand where Dr. Martin Luther King stood and you see that perspective, I just get this sense of history and appreciate the decisions that were made and the consequential events that happened over time in the stability of institutions, in that you know leaders way above us stood the test of time, were resilient and were able to navigate unthinkable challenges, then so too should we, and I find a sense of, I guess, comfort or shared experience, although that's a whole different level for those level of leaders, but that really helps fuel me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  34:17
I can actually see that. Just picture you doing that. You know, I want to ask you, what is something you're doing every day to be better at “fill in the blank,” your leadership, your craft? What's something you're doing every day?
 
Mark Michalek  34:32
I think it's being disciplined and focused, definitely running and being physical, but balancing the time with family and friends in work, it sometimes — it comes across as selfish. I think particularly people who are service oriented consider that selfish. But again, like they say, when you're on the plane, you've got to put on your oxygen mask first before you can help others. So that's not selfish. You're telegraphing to others to take care of themselves. When I run, I listen to presidential biographies.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  35:05
Really, I was going to ask you, what's in your ear? Now — I'm just kidding.
 
Mark Michalek  35:09
I don't know if it's the cadence of the — but again, to understand decisions from the past, and when you know our country was at pivotal points, how we responded, that helps fulfill me. I think, you know, becoming a student of leadership, from being a cadet to now, and finding different ways and understanding whether it's private sector, other public sector entities, how they navigate things, because it's very, very similar when it comes to, you know, motivating people, managing programs, delivering results, you know, grappling with emerging tech, new different types of threats. So I do a lot of reading in that space, to be able to be a more kind of holistic leader and not have on horse blinders, just specific to government.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:00
Has there been one lately that's really stuck with you, or that you've listened to while you're running, or that you read that has continued to evolve the way you're thinking — you approach leadership?
 
Mark Michalek  36:11
I think it's — John Dickerson has a book called The Hardest Job in the World, and it's about the presidency, and it's not one individual president, it across party lines and in decades. But it's more of those themes that when you think back, they didn't have the technology we did. But like these fundamental themes are the same of, how do you motivate people? How do you respond to the operating environment? How do you handle complex challenges? Again, like I just felt a sense of reassurance or support and understanding on things, you know, through the course of time that we may not have all the answers, but collectively, people are the potential energy of the organizations, and they're going to deliver. They're going to hit it out of the park. You just have to support them.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  36:58
Well, we have viewers and listeners that kind of span from, you know, young cadet hopefuls, cadets, you know, graduates and family members. What's something that, if you could tell yourself years ago, maybe as a cadet, that you should say you should be thinking about this now, because in 27 years from now, it's gonna matter? What would you share?
 
Mark Michalek  37:18
You know, I think, first of all, I wish I would have had more fun.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  37:25
I think I've seen you smile more now.
 
Mark Michalek  37:28
I mean, it's just such a pressure cooker, and you don't want to let anybody down, and you don't know what the future holds. And, you know, “I've got to do this, I gotta do that. I gotta…” It's just breathe a little bit and enjoy it. Like, you don't recognize you're really in a pivotal point in your life. So that, I think that's one thing. I think the other for cadets and prospective cadets to recognize is, like, the FBI, like, the military is temporary. You're going to retire, probably young. You know, you do 20 years in the way our systems are set up, in the way the world is now. Rarely are you just going to go fishing at age 40 or 50. You know, you may have a second act, you may have a third act, and so you've got to really have the long view in mind, and it's OK not to have all the answers. You know, life will throw you some curve balls here and there. You've got to do what fulfills you at the time and doors will open. But you just got to have that faith that things are going to work out.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  38:35
Did you have that, you think, back then, or you, just looking back on it now, recognize that?
 
Mark Michalek  38:41
I don't know. I think partially I had it then. Those Academy years are really, really tough. And like, we were chatting before, like, well, you know, once you leave, that was it. I had no intention of coming back. And it's kind of like a boomerang. Distance and time makes the heart grow fonder, and then you recognize, you know, what you've learned here and how special this place was. And I think back, I think staying busy and active is what got me through. There's nothing worse than that first holiday break in December, right when you go back to your friends and they're at local schools, and you see all the stuff they're doing, and then you’ve got to come back. I mean, that is such a — the comeback piece. Do you have the, you know, intestinal fortitude to come back? You know, that was really, really tough, but now I see that the Academy, you know, left an indelible mark on me and changed the trajectory of my life. And I think back, you know, like I said, I'm the only person in my family to have ever left Michigan, and what life would have been, you know… You think the Earth is flat until get out and see there's a whole big world out there and a ton of opportunities. And as I've gotten in this role, particularly as a special agent in charge in Denver, I interact more with military leaders here in Colorado and Wyoming, and start to reconnect with people and see that this Long Blue Line, it spans everything. We are everywhere across the world. But you have no idea what good stuff lies ahead if you just stay the course, and your life will be changed in fundamentally spectacular ways.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  40:29
You couldn't end it better than that. I guess I want to just ask you this final question. Is there anything we didn't talk about today that you would like to make sure you make mention of?
 
Mark Michalek  40:34
No, but let me give one piece of advice for future cadets and cadets. And this — I think I read this in a book before I came but this is what helped me survive. Go to bed every night at 10 o'clock. You know, there's folks that try to do the all-nighters. I didn't. Every night, I went to bed at 10 o'clock and dealt with the consequences on the back end. And I think that ability to recharge and rest served me well.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  41:00
Do you still go to bed at 10 o'clock now?
 
Mark Michalek  41:02
I try. Now it's more like 9 or 8:30 as I've gotten older, but I think you've got to recharge and sleep. And that's one of the things the Academy teaches you, is you are not going to get everything done. You're not going to muscle your way through this. You can try. You're going to end up tired. But this is a team sport. Life is a team sport. You've got to do the best you can and get up and do it again the next day. But you are not you're just not going to get it all done. So you got to take care of yourself.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  41:30
Well, that really does kind of bring it home. Does that this time that you've been kind of experiencing in your life through the active-duty service, through the FBI, you know, you said it yourself, you kind of look back at, you know, maybe why your dad made some decisions. Do you feel like you've gotten to a point where you've had closure now?
 
Mark Michalek  41:49
Yes and no. I think I've gotten to a point where I've got all the answers I can but I'm at peace with what had happened. And I just, I try to, you know, leverage the time I have with my wife and girls to be present and to be a good role model and just to be able to support them and help them thrive.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  42:12
Well, I think you've been an incredible role model. You've been an incredible friend through all these years. This conversation has been one that's been really rooted and just understanding who you are, where you're at, and then how to navigate from that place. And I think that's why you've been one of the reasons why you've been just so successful, and why you're able to lead so many people through so many different crises. So I thank you for being on Long Blue Leadership. This has been a true treat for me, but again, I know that all of our listeners and our viewers have enjoyed this as well.
 
Mark Michalek  42:39
Oh, thank you, Naviere, I really appreciate the opportunity.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz  42:43
As I think back on our conversation today, you know, there are several things that stand out. I think one thread that we really need to think about is taking care of ourselves and others, knowing where we're at, thinking about mental resilience and really post traumatic growth, being able to move forward and seek help when you need it. I think part of our conversation today as leaders is not everything is easy, and certainly you have a network that supports you, and so one of the ways that my classmate Mark has really highlighted to me is lean into your network, you know, utilize the resources that are there for you, and then you can not only help yourself, but you can help others as well. So it's been an incredible conversation, one that I look forward to listening to again and sharing with others as well.
 
KEYWORDS
Public safety leadership, law enforcement leadership, military leadership, FBI leadership, crisis leadership, trauma-informed leadership, mental resilience, post-traumatic growth, whole-person leadership, high-consequence environments, leading under pressure, servant leadership, organizational culture change, resilience culture, mental fitness for first responders, leader self-care, work-life balance for leaders, empowering frontline teams, interagency collaboration, leadership in crisis response.
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
 
 

A simple but powerful leadership lesson: show up — whether in loss, transition or everyday life. SUMMARYJessica Whitney ’10 reminds us that we often know what to do — the difference is actually doing it. Small acts of showing up can mean everything.
 
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JESSICA'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP LESSONS
Here are 10 leadership lessons from this conversation:
1. Align your life with your values, not your plan
Whitney thought she’d do 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, but family and faith became higher priorities than her original career plan.
Leadership lesson: Be willing to pivot when reality and your values diverge, even if it means leaving a prestigious path.
2. Redefine success beyond titles and rank
She struggled after leaving the Air Force because her identity was tied to “academy grad” and “officer.”
Leadership lesson: Anchor your worth in who you are and how you impact people daily, not in your job title.
3. Use mentors to unlock “freedom to choose”
A single honest conversation with her mentor gave Whitney “freedom” to imagine different possibilities.
Leadership lesson: Seek out mentors who model alternative paths and will tell you the truth about tradeoffs.
4. Make decisions with the best information you have now
Whitney references the Gen. George Patton quote about a good plan now vs. a perfect plan later, and emphasizes moving forward one step at a time.
Leadership lesson: Don’t wait for total certainty. Clarify what you know, what you don’t control, then act.
5. Integrity = keeping and honoring your word
From her transformational leadership class:
Keep your word when you can.
When you can’t, honor it: Notify early, reset expectations and clean up the impact.
Leadership lesson: Integrity isn’t perfection; it’s proactive ownership. This builds trust and reduces stress for everyone.
6. Name the stories that secretly run you (“what’s undefined runs you”)
Whitney recognized long-standing internal stories like “I don’t belong” from moving often as a Navy brat.
Leadership lesson: Identify your limiting narratives (e.g., “I can’t disappoint people,” “I don’t belong”) so they stop unconsciously driving your behavior.
7. Create a compelling future and work backwards
She describes standing in the future you want (for yourself or an organization) and asking, “If we were already there, how did we get here?”
Leadership lesson: Lead by designing the future state (culture, behaviors, outcomes), then reverse-engineer today’s actions.
8. Show up for people — especially in their storms
After her brother-in-law’s suicide, the support from church and Air Force community showed her the power of “just showing up.”
Leadership lesson: You rarely know what others are carrying. Leadership is often simply being present, unasked, when it matters.
9. Align daily actions with stated values
Whitney feels the most stress when her behavior and values (family, faith, health, service) are misaligned.
Leadership lesson: Use misalignment (stress, guilt, burnout) as a signal to recalibrate how you spend time, energy and money.
10. Invest in small, consistent habits (1% better)
Whitney references “atomic habits” — reading regularly, moving her body, cooking healthy meals and doing “one more rep.”
Leadership lesson: Long-term leadership impact comes from small, repeatable behaviors, not dramatic one-time efforts
CHAPTERS
00:00:05 – Introduction & Transition Theme Whitney is welcomed to Long Blue Leadership. Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99, frames the episode around transitioning out of the military, and Whitney shares her background as part of a dual-military couple and early family life.
00:02:02 – Mentorship, Freedom & First Thoughts of Leaving Whitney describes reaching out to her mentor about transitioning to the reserves. That conversation gives her “freedom” to imagine a different life that prioritizes family and values over a 20-year active-duty career.
00:06:39 – Academy Lessons, Courage & Decision-Making Under Uncertainty Col. Walkwicz digs into Whitney’s use of the word “freedom.” Whitney connects her
decision-making and leap of faith to leadership lessons from the Academy — facing unknowns, focusing on what she can control, and acting without a perfect plan.
00:10:13 – Growing Up Military & Redefining Identity Beyond Rank Whitney shares her deep military heritage as a Navy brat and descendant of generations of service. She explains the identity shock of leaving active duty and having to redefine success beyond titles like “officer” and “academy grad.”
00:13:26 – Values, Overwhelm & Redefining Success in Daily Life Whitney talks about aligning actions with values: quiet time, family, health and rest. She contrasts the nonstop pace of active duty with her new season as a stay-at-home mom and reservist, and how she now defines success.
00:17:19 – Loss, Suicide, Grief & the Power of Community Whitney shares the story of losing her brother-in-law to suicide in January 2020. She reflects on hidden struggles, the “buying bananas in the grocery store” moment of invisible grief, and the profound impact of church and Air Force community support.
00:23:12 – Learning to “Show Up” for Others Col. Walkewicz asks where Whitney learned to show up so intentionally. Whitney recalls community support during her dad’s deployments, meals after her first child’s birth, and a commander welcoming her back from maternity leave — illustrating the difference between knowing you should show up and actually doing it.
00:26:11 – Serving Beyond the Uniform: Church, Family & Cadet Morale Whitney explains what service looks like now: leading a 120-woman Bible study and serving on the USAFA Class of 2010 Cadet Morale Endowment board, which funds morale events for top cadet squadrons. She highlights meaningful leadership without a visible rank.
00:29:20 – Transformational Leadership & Redefining Integrity Whitney shares lessons from a transformational leadership course she took (and later taught): integrity means both keeping and honoring your word. She gives practical examples (calling when you’ll be late, managing deadlines early) and uses a bicycle-wheel analogy to show how broken commitments make everything bumpier.
00:32:07 – “What’s Undefined Runs You”: Naming Limiting Stories Whitney introduces the idea that unexamined stories (e.g., “I don’t belong,” “I can’t disappoint people”) quietly drive behavior. She shares her own “I don’t belong” narrative from moving often as a Navy kid and how she consciously claims, “I belong here,” to lead more authentically.
00:36:50 – Creating a Future & Leading from It Whitney explains how leaders can “stand” in a desired future for their organization —
one of trust, transparency and camaraderie — and then work backward to identify the actions and changes needed today to get there.
00:38:33 – Advice to Young Jess: Vision, Risk & Trusting the Journey Asked what she’d tell her younger self, Whitney emphasizes clarifying what will matter at age 80, aligning life with that long-term view, being less risk-averse, and trusting God with unexpected pivots and new paths.
00:38:43 – Daily Habits, 1% Better & Long-Term Growth Whitney shares the small daily practices that make her “better”: reading and podcasts, surrounding herself with uplifting people, and health-oriented habits like walking and “one more rep.” She connects this to the concept of atomic habits and incremental growth.
00:40:52 – Closing: Character, Showing Up & Living Your Values Col. Walkewicz closes by summarizing Whitney’s key themes: leadership as character and presence, not having all the answers; simply showing up; and honoring integrity even amid uncertainty. She thanks Whitney for her ongoing service and impact.
00:42:05 – Production Note & Recording Date Ted Robertson notes that this Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded on Wednesday, Nov. 19, 2025.
 
ABOUT JESSICA
BIO
Jessica Whitney ’10 is a U.S. Air Force veteran, leadership coach and conflict resolution facilitator who helps executives and emerging leaders design purposeful futures and take aligned action. Drawing on more than a decade of military leadership experience navigating communication, conflict and high-stress environments, she supports individuals and teams in overcoming limiting beliefs, clarifying priorities and building systems that foster confident decision-making. Whitney specializes in one-on-one leadership coaching and workplace mediation, guiding productive conversations that transform tension into trust and strengthen organizational culture. She is also a wife, mother of four and advocate for intentional living, dedicating her work to empowering leaders to align their identities and results with their vision for the future.
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FULL TRANSCRIPTSPEAKERS:Guest, Jessica Whitney ’10  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:04Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad you're here.
 
Jessica Whitney 0:08Thanks so much for having me.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:04You know, one of the things we love to do, and we’re going to have some time really exploring a lot of the things that you've encountered in your journey, but we want to jump right into a place that is both relevant to our listeners, which is transitioning out of the military, but you did so in a way that was a little bit different, and maybe not on, like, the timeline of planning.Jessica Whitney 0:28I'm a 2010 grad, and so is my husband, Tom, and he was a nuclear missile operator, and I was a finance officer on active duty, and we started having kids in 2013 which was just amazing. But being a dual military couple, we had kind of been through a lot of separation and time apart, which is standard for military couples. And so in 2013, I kind of — I just had my first son, and I was back at work, and I was just feeling this torn feeling, because I always thought I would stay in the Air Force the full 20 years. I loved serving. I loved being in the military, and having gone to the Academy — just all the dreams and the hopes that came with that, and being able to lead and serve my airmen. But I was feeling this yearning and desire to kind of do something else, and that's kind of where the seed was planted at that time. And I reached out to one of my mentors, who was actually the coach of the lacrosse team at the Academy when I was there my freshman year. She's actually one of your classmates, I think. She's Anne Marie Hornby. She's from Class of ’99, and I just reached out on Facebook, and I was like, “I know, I haven't talked in a while, but I just wanted to check in and ask, you know, like, why did you transition to the Reserve?” Because she was always, you know, she was a teacher at the Academy. Like, she was always high performing. Like, I knew she was an amazing officer. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:02She was high performing as a cadet too, by the way.Jessica Whitney 2:05I'm sure she was. Just everything she did, I could tell she did it with excellence and love, and I just really respected her opinion. So I reached out and asked her just like, “Hey, can you just tell me, like, why did you decide to separate?” I'm just kind of feeling this tornness, and I'm feeling like maybe my calling might be something else than serving in the military, which, as an 18-year-old, you kind of go to the Academy thinking, “OK, I'm gonna have four years at the Academy, and then I'm gonna serve for five years, or 12 years, or whatever.” Like, you've got your whole life planned out, and then all of a sudden there's this, you know, pivot and decision that you have to make of like, “OK, wait, life is throwing some things at me that I didn't expect.” And I just wanted to know her opinion. And she just said such a sweet thing that resonated with me, that she kind of felt that same call of, “I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I wanted to be able to focus more on my husband and my family.” And while it was scary, she said, I know she knew that motherhood, or like becoming a stay-at-home mom and transitioning to the Reserve wouldn't necessarily feed all of her desires of competition and performing well and using her strengths to the utmost, maybe that she could — she also knew that it aligned with what was important to her and her family. And each family is different, and each career is different. So it really gave me freedom to say, “OK, I know successful women in the military who have families. I know successful women outside of the military who have families.” And you know, we choose to do the stay-at-home mom career, which was different for me, because my mom worked full time when I was growing up. So anyway, it gave me that freedom to kind of like pivot and think, “OK, what could the possibility be to like, create this life of being there for my family?” So fast forward, 2016 I was teaching ROTC at Colorado State University, which was a dream job, by the way, I absolutely love that job. And Tom, my husband, at that point, had already separated from the Air Force and was pursuing his career in professional golf. He was traveling to PGA Latin America in both the fall and spring of 2016, I had to go TDY to field training for seven weeks that summer. And I think we counted up being apart for over 40 weeks that year.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35
Majority of the year.
 
Jessica Whitney 4:36
The majority of the year. Yeah, and I did not really see staying in the Air Force, it getting any better, as far as, you know, having more time with my family and my husband. And I just felt disconnected, my heart wasn't in it anymore and serving, and I still had that little, you know, seed that had been planted when I talked to Wibs about, you know, like, “Why did you go into the Reserve?” And I talked to a couple other reservists who just loved the balance of being able to still serve in uniform while also being able to maybe have a civilian career, or just be able to have some more flexibility to spend more time and focus on their families during a season of life. And so in 2016 I'm sitting there my desk, like, “I just want to go home and take a nap. I'm so tired.” I had two kids at this time. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I'm just exhausted.” But I was like, “OK, I think —" you know, my husband and I prayed about it, we were just like, “OK, I think it's time to just take this leap of faith, kind of walk away from what we've known.” So now both of us would be out of the Air Force and pivot to something else, and like, step into that faith decision that for us, that the Lord's going to provide, and that we wanted to build and focus on the things that were really important to us. So showing that if family faith are the most important things, how was I using my time? How was I using my energy? How are we using our money? Did it reflect what was actually important? And so we made that decision, and then I got out in 2017 and separated. And honestly, it was the best decision ever. Now, I struggled a ton with my identity afterwards, because I just didn't realize that I really kind of was wrapped up in this idea, like, “Oh, I'm an Air Force officer, I'm an Academy grad,” and those things are, like, very focused on what you do. And so I had to kind of redefine what success was to me as far as just impacting the people around me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:41I want to just interject here for a moment, because you said a couple of things that I really want to pull on before we get too far, because I think it really does impact some of our listeners and some of the experiences that they've had. So the first one, when you talked about that transition, and there was a key word you use, and you use the word “freedom,” — “It gave me a freedom to kind of things a little differently” after having a conversation with your mentor, and then, you know, praying about it with your husband. And so I want to just explore that a little bit, because did you feel like that freedom, or just the ability to kind of navigate that did touch on some of the things you really valued that you learned at the Academy, as far as decision making, and kind of, you know, taking this leap of faith and navigating what's not always known. And, you know, I don't want to say it's safe, but maybe it's not the safest path, right? So, like, can you just touch on that a little bit more? Because I think that is something that, you know, people question that, kind of, in that decision-making place.Jessica Whitney 7:41Yeah, I definitely think that in that decision, when I say, you know, we had this, I had this freedom to make a choice, we could, kind of, I could kind of lean back onto my time at the Academy of we were given so many challenges at the Academy and things that were unknown and things outside of our control, and you just learn to have an approach where you cannot problem-solve everything, but just like you can say, “OK, here's the variables I know that are true, here are the things that are outside of my control,” which just help you make clear decisions, and then just stepping into the fact that any decision, any action, is just taking one step at a time, and you don't have to have the whole future planned out. And in fact, in the military, you rarely do, right? I always kind of joke with my husband with, like, the quotes, but you know, like Gen. Patton, like “A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week,” right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:40Next week. Thankful I was able to contribute a little.Jessica Whitney 8:43Good job. Good job. Yes. And so just, but the fact that, like, just make — do what's best with the information you have now, and take action and don't just sit on it. And I think, but, yeah, that gave me that freedom. Because, yeah, it was a big step and leap of faith, because a lot of people think the military is, well, of course, it is a risky job, and especially risky in the sense of our physical harm and a lot of the challenges that we face. But in many ways, it's something we knew, know, and it's something that's very reliable, and it's something that we had, my husband and I had both lived for, you know, 11 years between the Academy and now. So it was a big leap of faith, as far as, you know, transitioning to the unknown, but we were able to kind of lean on just, “Hey, it's OK that we don't know everything. We can trust the skills that we gained at the Academy and trust the skills that we gain just in life to move forward.” And even with my husband, I'm like, “If this golf thing doesn't work out —" which, by the way, he's been a professional golfer for 10-plus years now, so it's worked out. I fully believe that we are capable of learning anything and doing anything if we choose to set our minds to it, and like we're gonna be OK, like, because of what we learned at the Academy and skills that we garnered. Like, we're gonna be OK moving forward.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:13I love that. And you started to talk about having to redefine yourself, and before we get into that, I think it's interesting, because you grew up as a dependent of — your dad served in the Navy, right? So we like to use the term, you know, lovingly, I was an Air Force brat. You're a Navy brat, so your identity going into the Academy was already one of a military dependent, right? So let's talk about this redefining your identity, because I'm sure that it was much more than, you know, just on the surface level, it seems really simple, right, going from this, but I'm still serving, so it's not really that different, but I'm sure it was.Jessica Whitney 10:49Yeah, it was a big transition. So as you mentioned, I was a Navy brat. My dad served for 30 years, and I come from a proud heritage of military service. My grandfather, before that, served in the Navy, he joined straight from the Philippines, and my great-grandfather actually served in the Philippine army and was in the Bataan Death March. So I've got a lot of history in the military and a lot of pride and service to my country. And my dad was always, you know, a hero to me and someone that I looked up to, as far as he was always, not the only serving in the military, but he would be a leader of, like my brother's Boy Scout troop, right, and volunteer with this, and he'd be active in the Rotary Club. And my mom worked full time and led my Girl Scout troop, and whenever he was gone to Bahrain for 16 months, you know, she held down the fort with three kids. Like, I just looked up to my parents and how hard working they were, and just how they were always serving something bigger than themselves and balancing family and all that. I still don't know how they do it. And we have four kids now. I'm like, how did you guys do all of that? But when I transitioned out of the Reserve, I just remember sitting one time, like, I was doing my quiet time in the morning, and I was reading my Bible. And at least for me, I had to remind myself my value is not in what I do. It's not in awards I get. My value is one, in Christ, and then two, in the actions that I take each and every day. And it's impacting and positively impacting the people that are around you right now. And honestly, it's a struggle every day, even today. I've been a stay-at-home mom for eight years now, and it's something I think we all struggle with — of like, what is our purpose in life? What is the reason — why we do the things we do? And each person really has to, like, struggle with that. So I had to, I think when I was really struggling with my identity, I had to redefine, like, OK, my worth and value is not in the title that I have or the rank that I have or anything like that. It is loving on the people around me really well and serving to the best of my ability with excellence in all we do right where I am, and that's the most important thing.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:25How did you get to that point of defining that? I mean, is it kind of in lockstep with your views of yourself as a leader? Or would you say it's just where you kind of settled into in your moments of quiet and through your prayer of, “This is how I define my impact and my —" you know, what that looks like?Jessica Whitney 13:48I think a big chunk of it was just continuous practice, in a way, each and every day, reminding myself, one, is what success looks like, because I think that as people who are highly motivated and being leader, you're like, you've got your to do list, you've got your things you want to do. I've got, like, a to do list, like, this long, you know? And yeah, and I would just tell myself, like, “I've got 25 things to do. I only did six of them.” Like, there was no way I was going to do 25 things in the first place, you know. So I think that as a leader in general, you need to be realistic about what you can actually accomplish each and every day, whether you're a stay-at-home mom or you're a leader in the workplace, and actually be able to, like, you know, time block and say, like, “These are the most important things. These are my priorities.” And probably just over, it's probably just over time of like, every morning, like, "OK, the most important things, like, got my quiet time in. I'm spending time with the kids. I went for a walk, I moved my body, and we're eating healthy meals. I remember when I was working full time, I would kind of be jealous of those people who, like, had time to cook a full meal, and, like, spend an hour maybe making dinner and, you know, have quiet time. I always felt when I was on active duty working full time, it was just like, get up early in the morning, go to daycare, drop off, work all day. You know, work out during lunch. Never have a break, and then run home, make dinner really fast, and, like, get the kids in bed, and there was no break, and there was no rest. And so I remember yearning for that when I was on active duty. And so when I first became a stay-at-home mom, and when I first transitioned out of the Air Force. I really had to remind myself, like, OK, what are my values? What is most important here, and are my actions aligned with that? And if they are, then that's success right there. And so I had to remind myself that every day, like I get time to make healthy meals for my family. I have time to go to the gym five days a week if I want to. I have time to put a, you know, like, say yes to things like this. I've got time to go speak at the Veterans Day ceremony at my kids school. Like, I don't have to feel bad about missing appointments for my missing meetings at work for appointments for my kids. I don't have to choose that all the time. Now, serving in the Reserve, you know, I still miss weekends where the kids have tournaments and games and stuff, but that's OK, like it there's, there's a balance in there. I hate the word balance, because I don't think you ever really achieve that. But I think that as leaders, you know, we have to — like, when you're feeling the most stressed, or when I felt the most stressed, it's when my actions and behaviors just haven't lined up with my values and what's most important to me. “So as leaders in your organization, if you know you guys are — your stated values, are, you know, XYZ, but you're over here doing ABC, then there's going to be disconnect in the organization.” So I think at any time, you know, when there's alignment there, then you're going to feel alignment for you as a person, as a leader.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:19I'd like to dig into those values a little bit, because we did talk about how you've experienced deep personal loss, right, in your family, and you know, how have the values, or maybe just your life experiences, helped you navigate that? Because, you know, I think people experience grief on all levels, and if you don't mind sharing your story a little bit, I think it just will allow others to understand how you were able to navigate through that and maybe continue to navigate through that today.Jessica Whitney 17:51Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to share this part of my story. So my husband's brother, Bob, was a 2008 grad, and unfortunately, we lost him to suicide in January of 2020. It was really just a complete shock when it did happen. It seemed like it came on so quickly. Bob was just always someone that when you walk into a room, he was always smiling. He was the light in the room. He was such a great husband and father. He was super active in his church and his family. And so a couple things that I took away from all of that was just one, we just never know what people are going through, what storms they are, like, they might seem perfect on the outside, and really, they're having struggles with maybe imposter syndrome or just doubt, or they're just having all sorts of issues, right? So you just never know. I remember standing in the grocery store after he passed away, and I'm like, staring at these bananas that I'm supposed to be buying for eight kids because we were like, up with them, you know, after the funeral. And I'm just thinking, like, no one around me knows that this just happened in my life, and I'm just standing here doing this mundane thing of buying bananas. And I think it, just, as a leader makes you realize that people are walking through storms all over around you, and if you're not currently in a storm, most likely you will be. After he passed away too, we were just blown away by the community support that he received, both from his church as well as from the Air Force family, but I know that it takes time to have good community. It takes — you have to invest time. And all of us, we're just so busy, but these relationships, these are the most important things that we can work on and develop the people around us. It kind of showed up for me in my unit, we had an airman who lost a spouse. He had three young kids at home, and his wife passed away. And I was like, we just need to show up for him, like, be at his doorstep. And we're in the Reserve. We don't live close together. We're not all stationed by the base. So, you know, it's like someone needs to go to his house, bring him a card, tell him we love and care for him as our Air Force family. And you know, he even commented afterwards, he was like, “You know what, you guys—” this Air Force family that he only saw one weekend a month. He's like, “You guys are my lifeline.” But I know that, for me, I really knew that we needed to show up, and that's because I knew what it felt like when people showed up at my door, when we needed it, you know?
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:51Wow. I mean, I think that's really — I mean, to navigate that. And loss, I think you know, is as a journey, that it's still a life journey, right? And so, and I think the fact that you were able to lean in and you knew and expressed it in a way that you know, showing up for those and then seeing it happen actually in your unit, and being able to translate that. Have you always known, I guess, about showing up? Have you seen that in other leaders in your career or in your life, what showing up looks like? How that really defined you? Because I'm curious if you know that was all just developed in seeing that in that loss journey, or if it was something you've seen over time and then witnessed it?
Jessica Whitney 21:37I guess I would say, if I'm really looking back, especially because I'm a Navy brat, right? We did live in places all over the country, and, yeah, we did have a good support system. Like my friends, my family, had people that would show up. Like when my dad was deployed, they would show up at the house when I was in high school. You know, we had such a tight knit community there, but I am thinking, like the first time I really felt that was with our church community. After our first son was born, people would show up at our house, and I didn't even know them, and they were bringing food to us. I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so sweet.” But just, like, that power of community, and then even with leaders that I've had in the past, like my first squadron commander that I can remember, she, like, the first day I got back again from maternity leave, she had, like, just brought, like, a little vase of flowers and put it on my desk, and just like a welcome back, but like an acknowledgement too. Of you know, it's hard to come back after, right? You know, your first child, or any child, like after you have a baby, and then you come back to work, but just, you know, welcoming and showing up. And I think that this, I don't know exactly where it stems from, but, yeah, actually taking the time to do it, because a lot of us know we should do it, but do we actually pause long enough to do it?Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:11That's a really great — I think that particular nugget, right? We know what we should be doing, but do we actually take the steps to do it? I think, is actually an important lesson right there. And, you know, would you say that throughout your experiences, and I'm really curious, because I think, you know, you talk about being a stay-at-home mom, but I'm sure your schedule is quite — you said you get six out of your 25 things done. Can you talk about how you're serving outside of the uniform? Because I think that that's really important as well. Service doesn't stop just because we take the uniform off. And I mean, it sounds like you're serving in your church and your community. You know, what does service look like to you now, through that leadership lens, maybe when you're not wearing a rank all the time?Jessica Whitney 23:54I have really looked at the areas of my life that I want to be active in, like, what's important to me? And in the church, I participate in the women's Bible study, and I'm one of the leaders there and kind of help lead. We have 120 women that come every Wednesday and I'm one of the leaders that, you know, kind of facilitates the overall Bible study. And I've just loved stepping into that role and using my leadership skills to encourage people and show up. And then the other board I kind of serve on is the Class of 2010 Endowment for Cadet Morale. And so our class, with our funds that we, you know, had raised throughout the years, decided to set up a morale fund. So the top squadron for each semester actually receives a $5,000 check from our endowment, and they can use it on whatever they want. And I just remember, like those cadets, those high schoolers that are transitioning to be future leaders of the Air Force, they are amazing. I am impressed every time I interact with them. And the Academy is hard, and I just want to offer that little bit of light, you know, to encourage them. Like, “Hey, you're on a good path. Like, just, just continue on. And here's a little bonus, bonus check.” You know, literally, we love that part. But yeah, so I just love to step into service where I can.Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:23I'm glad that you shared that, because I do think it's easy for us to downplay our role and impact in the hats that we wear and the ways that we serve, and so I really appreciate you sharing that, because I think that's an important part of our stories you talked about with me before you know, redefining yourself. I want to go back to that because I think it has to do with being authentic and who you are. And so as you've navigated this new season in your life where you're still serving in these multiple hats and raising your family, supporting your husband, you know, where was that seed planted from, being an authentic leader, kind of, you know, being — leading with integrity, you know, maybe saying, “I can't do this, but I can do this.” Can you talk a little bit about that?Jessica Whitney 26:07Yeah, absolutely. I took an amazing class at the Academy, a leadership class that a friend of mine, again from the lacrosse team, recommended me, and she's like, “Jess, this class — it's called transformational leadership. It's way more than that. I really think you need to take this course.” And she was so right, because there are so many things that I carry over from that, from that course into my leadership, and then just my everyday life. And it was taught by Capt. Kari Granger, who's now Kari Zeller, and she's an Academy grad as well. And when I got to my ROTC detachment in 2016, so eight years later, this gentleman came into the office, and he's like, “Hey, my daughter teaches this leadership course called being a leader and the effective exercise of leadership. I really want to teach it at Colorado State, but I'm looking for someone to partner with, maybe through the detachment. Like, do you think anybody would want to co-lead this class with me?” And his name was Karl Zeller, and I was like, “I think I took this class when I was at the Academy, and it was amazing, and I would love to lead this class with you.” And so not only did I take the class at the Academy, I also taught it two semesters while at Colorado State, we kind of made it an elective class, and we had several cadets and cadre go through the class, which was just an amazing experience. Because I think most of us know that when we have to teach other people something, we learn it even better than when we go through it ourselves. So the kind of the main takeaways I had were one kind of heard the definition of integrity. We all know the Air Force's definition of doing what you know the right thing when no one's watching, when nobody's looking, but she kind of defined it more as both keeping your word and honoring your word. So we all know that keeping your word that's easy, but what is honoring your word mean? And her framework kind of laid out, honoring your word is, as soon as you realize you're not going to keep your word, notifying the person that involves saying when you are going to keep your word and then cleaning up any mess that you made by not doing it. So a quick example would be, you know, you're running late to a doctor's appointment. You get in the car, you realize, “Oh my gosh, I'm going to be seven minutes late to the appointment.” Instead of, like, white knuckling your steering wheel to make it in time, you feel guilty when you get there. You immediately call the office. You tell them, “Hey, I'm going to be late to the appointment. I'm going to get there seven minutes late. And, you know, I realized that this has an impact on you like, you know, let me know if I need to reschedule." Whatever it is, right? Most people are so shocked by this ownership that they are so much more gracious to you in whatever the circumstances are. And on top of that, you're not stressed. You're not, you know, white knuckling. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:22So when it really takes you nine minutes to get there? Yeah,.
 
Jessica Whitney 29:26So hopefully overestimate.
 
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:28Seven minutes and 40… Like, round down.Jessica Whitney 29:29My husband calls that, like, Jess math. I'm like, yeah, well, it's fine. It's fine. But, like, if you think about in the workplace, right, like, you have an assignment, you have something your boss gave you, it's due Friday. You realize Monday, OK, there's no way I'm going to do this. I can either stress about it, work super late hours and, you know, like cause all this extra stress, and then maybe still not accomplish and get the work done, and then show up to my boss on Friday and say, “OK, sorry, boss, I couldn't get it done.” Or on Monday, you bring up the conversation, you swallow your pride, and you say, “These are my challenges.” You manage expectations, and you're you guys together. Can you know, either reassign, get help or bump the deadline, whatever it is, but now you're no longer living in this like, fear of like, I'm going to be late or whatever, like you're able to perform better. And so they, in the class, they talked about how, with integrity, everything works. And they talk about the idea of like a bicycle wheel, right? There's spokes on a bicycle wheel, and if all the spokes are intact, it's going to run very smoothly, right? That's keeping your word and honoring your word, you're performing really well. Well, when you're not honoring and those folks and you're not keeping your word, or you're not honoring your word, some of those books are missing, so it's just going to be a little bit bumpier. And things are going to get done, but they're not going to get done as well as they would if you were honoring your word. So that's a big takeawayCol. Naviere Walkewicz 30:56That’s a great analogy. Wow. Yeah.Jessica Whitney 30:58So I apply that, I feel like in everything, because I think a lot of us will get in the way of ourselves, of just like, “Oh, I don't want to tell them and be late, or I don't want to, I don't know, disappoint someone, or I know there's expectations with my husband, but I'm just going to ask forgiveness instead of, you know, for permission,” or whatever it is with whoever. So anyway, with integrity, nothing works. And so I kind of take that away of, like, OK, what's expected of me? OK, I'm going to try to meet that. And that kind of lines up too with just this idea of what's your values, right? So if I say I'm a person that values fitness, do my actions line up with that. That's part of my word. OK, so I've said, I've said, “OK, I'm a fitness person and I want to be healthy.” Well, am I going to the gym? Am I eating healthy? Am I drinking too much? Am I — whatever? Do my actions align with that? No, OK, I'm not in integrity. It's not bad or good. It's just not working as well. Not going to accomplish my goals if I'm not in alignment with the other two things. And I'll just touch on them quickly, and then we can explore more if you want. But the other one is what's undefined runs you, which is basically means — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:06Wait, say that one more time.
Jessica Whitney 32:09What's undefined runs you. So it's this idea of all of us have stories most likely from our childhood that we make up about ourselves. So like, I don't belong. I can't disappoint people. I have to get things done the right time. And we can probably all look back in our past and say, “I remember I got in trouble one time when my grandpa was at the house and I was late getting in, and he said, you know, you're disappointing your mom. You're not listening to her.” And then, all of a sudden, you make this life sentence for yourself of I can't disappoint my mom. I can't disappoint so now you have this filter, this mindset that all of your decisions and actions flow through that says I can't disappoint others. Well, of course, that's going to limit what you can and can't do, because it's filtering out half of, you know, a quarter of action, anything that could any —Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:03Risk or grit.
Jessica Whitney 33:05Exactly. And so what the undefined run you means you're never going to be able to completely get rid of these filters and things that you have, but you can name them and define them. So you say, OK, like for me, I was a Navy brat. I moved around a lot, and so I often felt like I didn't belong where I was. Like, I always felt like people already had relationships, all that stuff. So I do, I know that I will walk into a room like a Bible study, and in my mind, think, “Man, like, people just don't really connect with them. Like, maybe they just don't like me.” I'm like, “No, I've been here for five years. I belong here. I am a part of this group.” But it's this, you know, filter that I'm running things through, of I don't belong. I need to name that, remove it, and then be like, OK, I belong here. I am part of this group.Naviere Walkewicz 33:54
So what have you named it? And have you removed it?Jessica Whitney 33:59I think it's more about just the awareness. So it's like that, we as leaders have to be aware of the things that are getting in our own way of being an effective leader. And so I — this is a big one for me, like the I don't belong. So even recently, I walked into a new group of women and I said, “I belong here. I am a part of this community.” It's like at my son's school, and I can contribute as me. I don't have to hold back, or, you know, be a certain way. I can be myself. I can be my authentic self and lean into this. And it was very freeing, because in the past, I have gone in and just kind of like sat kind of back, and I don't want to be intimidating, or I don't want to take over the conversation, or just whatever it is, I'm not being myself, and I have to tell myself, like, “I belong here. I can be myself if they don't accept me for me, that's OK,” you know. But I can't hold back just because I'm trying to fit in and just because I'm trying to be risk averse, or, you know, conflict averse, or something like that. So, yeah, just be yourself, right? But so what's undefined runs you. So as leaders, we need to identify what's holding us back, what's running our lives, right? And just name it. They have a phrase: “Name it to tame it.” So once you can put a name on it, then that often helps you change your actions, you know? And then the last one is just, I think leaders, you are a leader. If you are impacting something around you, the organization, the people around you, they wouldn't be who they are without your influence. So in that framework, we talked about creating a future as leaders. So you've got a current organization, and maybe there's, you know, like no one likes to hang out, there's gossip, there's toxic leadership, there's bad communication, no transparency. This is a very imaginary organization, of course. But you acknowledge, like, OK, this is what's going on. Let's create a future. What does the future look like that we actually want, with all the actions and things like, OK, we have transparency. We like to hang out. There's, you know, Squadron picnics. We go to PT and we all encourage and work hard. We handle conflict in a healthy way. OK, so if we're standing in that future and looking back, how did we get here? So the course is a lot about, like the whole ends, ways, means that the Air Force talks about, but just how can you stand in the future and look back and say, “How did I get to that spot?” And then that's how, you know, what's the next action you can take in this current spot?
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:49Wow. Jess, it's almost like you read my mind, because there's two questions I actually want to ask you, and one of them is about looking back. So why don't we start with that one? First, you know, what is something you would tell yourself, young Jess back then that you could be doing then to help you be a better leader now? And is it actually what you just talked about, or would it be something else you would add?Jessica Whitney 37:11No, I think it would be just that. Like, no, where do you want to be even, like, let's say, in five years, or what's going to be most important to you in 80 years? Right when you're 80, when you look back on your life like, what's going to really matter? And start aligning your life with that. Now, some of that takes time, but standing in that future of how you want it to feel, how it looks, how you want your organization to feel. Like, start — write it down, put it on a vision board, talk about it with someone. And then I would say to myself, like, and then start working towards it. I think when I was younger, I was, you know, I was comfortable with where I was at. I was afraid to take risk. I was afraid to do things different than what I always thought I would do. And you know, for me, the Lord really worked in it, in my heart of just saying, Just trust me. Just trust me with that next step you have the direction you kind of want to go, and I'm going to take you on a journey that you know you're probably never going to be able to predict, kind of like, what I talked about at the beginning, like I pivoted, like it was completely different than what I want, and just be OK with that. That's the beauty of life is, you know, pivoting with what's in front of you, but just taking that next, that next step.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:32I love that. And then what is something that you do every day, just to be better and better is really you define better, but what is something you're doing every day.Jessica Whitney 38:42I love the books, like The Power of Habit and Atomic Habits and yeah, they're so good in just this idea of your daily actions are, what are, who you are, really like, how you show up in the world, because you can only control what you're doing today. Can't control what you're doing tomorrow or what you did in the past, and so for me, one, I do love to read. So I'm always reading books, listening to podcasts and all that kind of stuff. So I think, as a leader, just, like, surround yourself with lots of different opinions, read different things and just encourage my brain. Two, I love to surround myself with people that encourage me and a community that's going to help me challenge myself to improve. And then three, like those daily actions of self-improvement, of like, OK, how can I be just like, 1% better than I was yesterday, whether that be choosing to eat a little healthier today or going on a 30-minute walk, or, you know, when you're lifting weights like, Can I do five pounds more on this? Like, one or one more rep, right? Like, one more. But I do love that analogy, and weightlifting like, OK, I didn't realize that, you know, like, I can do one more rep this week than I could last but three months ago, you know, I've made huge improvement from three months ago. But you don't realize until after the fact. So I think, you know, being a high achiever all my life, it's like, you want to see these big, like, changes and, you know, immediately, but oftentimes it's in these, like, small moments of like, “How can I just be better today?” Healthwise, community-wise. Who can I love on today? How can I, you know, for me, like being in alignment with, you know, what I think God has for my life, being in prayer and focusing on the people around me. You know, that seems like a lot of things. That's why I've got 25 things on my list, ,Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:44But you get a few of them done And that's OK, because you just gotta do one.Jessica WhitneyExactly, you just gotta do one.
Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:51Well, I can just share how much, you know, you really just like leaned in and shared your love and wisdom with all of us. And I think that's one of the things I really appreciated about this today: how you showed up for us and shared your authentic self, and so I just want to say thank you. You know, as we wrap up today's conversation, Jess, what's really stood out to me is that we talked about leadership is just about as much about character, but it's really also about, like, showing up and who you are. You know, you show us just that strong leaders don't just show up and need to have all the answers. They actually just need to show up, right? And just, you know, live their values, live with integrity. And I love how you said, you know, honor your integrity even when life is uncertain or changing. So, you know, I think your transition out of active duty could have been a moment of doubt and struggle, but you turned it into an opportunity to serve, and your family has continued to thrive. So thank you for all that you're doing in your community, and for all of you who need to hear this journey, for those that have also gone or going through a transition, this is a conversation you certainly don't want to miss. So again, thank you to Jess Whitney, Class of 2010. It's been a pleasure having you on Long Blue Leadership.
 
Jessica Whitney 42:05
Thanks again.Outro 42:05This Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded Wednesday, Nov., 19, 2025.
KEYWORDSLeadership, authentic leadership, transformational leadership, values-based leadership, character-driven leadership, servant leadership, integrity, honoring your word, keeping your word, accountability, responsibility, vulnerability in leadership, decision-making under uncertainty, courage, leading through change, creating a future, vision casting, aligning actions with values, purpose-driven leadership, redefining success, identity as a leader, mentoring, mentorship, developing others, showing up for your people, empathy, compassion, community building, resilience, leading through grief, supporting mental health, trust, transparency, culture change, organizational alignment, handling conflict, managing expectations, setting priorities, work-life integration for leaders, modeling behavior, investing in relationships, daily leadership habits, incremental improvement, 1% better mindset, self-awareness, naming limiting beliefs, “what’s undefined runs you”, authenticity, influence without rank, service beyond the uniform, leading in family and community, Long Blue Leadership.
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation